All-Cal Etiquette Question: Men singing Alto

[Matthew Lawson]

Hey folks,
Short version:
Is it appropriate for men to sing alto? In a convention setting? Why or why not?

Longer version:
When I started singing shape note with the Berkeley group, I was
delighted to discover that I was welcome on the alto bench. For many
years I'd enjoyed singing high parts, but had never found a choir that
would allow me to audition on alto, and was so happy to find a place
where the upper half of my voice was not unwelcome. Since starting the
Davis group, I've frequently (as of late, ~80% of the time) sung alto
for balance reasons (so at this point I know the alto parts for many
tunes better than I know bass).
So I was surprised to be pulled aside at an all day sing and told that
singing alto was inappropriate. I felt somewhat hurt because shapenote
had become the safe place for me to sing high. I've talked to a fair
number of old timers and they mostly seem to agree that my singing
alto is inoffensive, but clearly that's not a universal sentiment.

I have not been able to find online or historical resources pointing
either way, so I figured, before All-Cal, I'd just ask this discussion
list for any insights or opinions, especially as pertain to a
convention setting.

Thanks, and I look forward to singing with y'all (in one octave or
another) this weekend :-D

-Matthew

[Will Fitzgerald]

It's perfectly fine, all things being equal, for a man to sing alto. It's rare, of course, but only remarkable for its rarity, not it's inappropriateness.

--
Will

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[Linda Selph]

I will echo Will’s response that it is unusual but not inappropriate for a man to sing alto, and provision for such is made in the rudiments (Chapter 1, #5 on four-part harmony).
However, this may be one of the matters of opinion that can’t be resolved solely by looking to the tradition of Sacred Harp singing. As you’ve discerned, there are things that are okay at a local singing that cause friction in the more formal setting of a convention, most of which are not spelled out in the rudiments. We all try to balance our personal needs and desires with that of the group and of the tradition as best we understand it: we trade our shorts and flip flops for pants or skirts and dress shoes; even vegetarians bring meat dishes for dinner on the grounds; we save our chatter for the recess; we refrain from singing all the verses to our favorite song; atheists bow their heads during the prayers. The question is, is it necessary to adapt our singing as well? As you’ve been made aware, some people have very strong opinions about men singing alto, and some people aren’t bothered. I’ve discovered some people don’t like when women sing in their lower register, so I avoid sitting next to those people and carry on singing low with the men when I sing tenor or treble. Really no one wants to hear me to sing high on those parts, and I don’t want to only sing alto.
Don’t worry about not singing bass— we’re never short of those at a convention. What singings are desperately short of outside of the South is male trebles (and to a lesser extent, male tenors, though that’s a more common problem at local singings than at conventions). Given that a convention can be the perfect opportunity for trying
new parts, why not spend at least part of the convention singing one or both of those parts? Then, even if you do sing alto for part of the convention, you’ve made an effort to balance your own needs with that of the group, and others can be more rightly expected to be accommodating.

I’m really grateful that you raised this question. These sorts of discussions help us grow in the tradition as a community.

See you this weekend!
-Linda Selph

On Jan 13, 2015, at 9:12 PM, Matthew Lawson <mmla...@ucdavis.edu> wrote:

[Karen Willard]

Matthew--

I want to echo what Linda Selph has identified as a serious need at all-day singings: male trebles. That sound is distinctive to Sacred Harp and yet, outside of Alabama/Georgia/Texas, we just don’t seem to grow very many male trebles.

So for the sake of the sound this coming weekend, sit over with the trebles and put your high pipes to use there. You’ll avoid *all* potential friction, on the contrary you’ll be welcomed with glad pips of joy by everyone; you may find you like singing treble, and the convention will be tremendously improved by your presence there. If you find you still prefer alto, then your sacrifice for the weekend will be all the more gratefully accepted ;-)

[Matthew Lawson]

Thanks for the responses so far!

Treble is tricky for me, I've only ever managed to sing it for 4-5
tunes before my voice becomes exhausted. The reason is essentially
that if I sing it in the male treble register, the notes lie right on
the break between my head and chest voices (and thus comes out
sounding like a dying water buffalo), whereas if I try to sing it in
the female treble register I have better luck but tire quickly and
sound a little screechy to boot. Bass and alto are more natural fits
for my voice (and indeed, singing alto rests my bass register and visa
versa, giving me more vocal endurance at all-day sings).
That said, it sounds like a great idea, and maybe with practice I can
develop the high end of my register more, starting Saturday. Just
don't be surprised if I retreat to the bass section after about
fifteen minutes :-)

-Matthew

[Will Fitzgerald]

Matthew,

I’ve been assuming that you’re singing in the ‘high’ register when you sing alto (i.e., you’re singing the same notes as the women are singing). If you’re not singing the same notes as the women, then it’s less — what’s the word I want to use? — attractive for a man to sing alto. Again, I don’t know if it’s “wrong” to do otherwise, but we usually sing 6-part harmony, not 7.  If you’re singing “low” alto, I think it’s likely to be more distracting. 

-- 
Will Fitzgerald

[Matthew Lawson]

I do sing alto in the upper octave :-)

Matthew

[Jennie Brown]

Many great responses already, but I wrote this novel, so here you go :).

I think Linda has hit upon the crux of the matter - when we gather at big singings, we are honoring and accommodating both the needs of our local community and the needs of our visitors, and the practices of the tradition in which we sing. While each singer has autonomy and discretion to sing the way they prefer, we sing in sweetest harmony when we balance our preferences with the class as a whole. 

For those folks from communities in which men do not sing alto, a male voice on that part can be jarring, distracting, and potentially derailing - which is an experience that we do not want our guests to have. In my experience singing treble, I can tell instantly when there is even a single man singing alto at a robust singing, and it is challenging to tune against (and I'm pretty hard to shake from my part). The tonality and texture of male alto is just a different beast, and while there are other styles and differences that catch my ear - sweet alto, women on bass, unaccented singing - I would encourage the same care and consideration for the class (It's what I try to practice when my vocal style and, ahem, enthusiasm are at odds with another singer, even as personally frustrating as that can be, and I have been more and less successful at different times throughout my life as a singer.) 

I think it is also worth acknowledging that alto singers in particular may have responses which are informed by their own experiences and cultural contexts, beyond just the novelty of male alto. A few examples I've encountered (blissfully anonymous): 

• A female alto in the Northeast who feels strongly that, in traditional singings, the alto bench is the only one where ownership belongs explicitly to women. (In many traditional communities, as opposed to recent or revival communities, the tenor and treble front benches are entirely male and only men key. This means that effectively the singing is directed by men - except for that alto bench.) She wants to preserve this space for female singers. 
• A Southern bass, fond of alto, who does so only in the back row and only if seats are open, who acknowledges that alto seats are usually the least plentiful at conventions. At traditional singings, there may only be a dozen alto seats to a hundred tenor. (Another Southern male tenor sings alto only at the invitation from altos, and only in the back row. This is the only man I've ever encountered who actually sounds 100% like a female alto when he sings that part... and the novelty of it is what gets him invited to the bench.)
• A female alto who has to switch parts when men sing alto, because she finds it very challenging to tune against the altered tone and reverberation. This woman has been singing 20+ years, and sings almost exclusively alto.

Since I don't sing alto, I can only share these and hope it's helpful. What I take from them is that while male alto is appropriate in some circumstances,it is best to do so with respect for the female altos and experience singers and effect is has on the class as a whole. 

All that said, I can introduce you to some fantastic male trebles who might help you navigate that breaking point, and if you have a hankering to sing alto, would just make sure to check in with the alto singers around you to make sure that they are comfortable singing against a male voice. 

See you soon!

[Dan Harper]

Interesting question. I've been at traditional Southern singings where men sang alto, and there was at least one man who periodically sang alto in the Boston area. And I've been at a few all-day singings with one or two women singing bass in the male range. On the other hand, I've been at other all-day singings where it was Not OK for men to sing alto.

At Bay Area all-day singings, I've always felt we're pretty tolerant of male altos and female basses. Maybe this general tolerance springs from general Bay Area tolerance and knowledge that not everyone considers gender to be binary? However, I don't believe this is a unanimous tolerance, even in the Bay Area, and it is perhaps out of sensitivity to this lack of unanimity that I've never seen male altos and female basses sit on the front bench at Bay area singings.

As a practical matter, at a convention like the All-Cal it is also wise to remember that there will be many people from other regions, with different sensitivities, and possibly with Strong Opinions. I suspect it would be wise for male altos and female basses to keep a relatively low profile, and be sensitive to visiting singers who might be around them. Having said that, any female basses are more than welcome to sit next to me in the bass section -- I figure, you can sing in the range, I'm not going to make inquires into your biological sex -- I'll be in one of the back rows near the altos. (Matthew, if you do sing alto I'll feel lucky if you sit over near me, I enjoy your alto voice and appreciate your musical ability.)

[caroline bonnet]

Thank you Dan for your open mind and sensitivity.  It appears to me that Sacred Harp, while holding to it's traditions, evolves with time and place and is not a static state.
    ~  Caroline

[Hannah Mae]

Matthew!  I have sung alto next to you in Berkeley and thoroughly enjoyed it.  To my ear, the addition of a fifth tonal part is all to the good - one of my favorite things about sacred harp is its grand maximalism.  Let's have more female basses and male trebles, too!

I do sympathize with those who find themselves next to someone whose singing distracts them... but a man in the alto section is that rare easily-identified distraction against which it is easy to make rules.  I have sat next to women altos who are so loud I can't hear myself.  I have sat on the far bass side of the alto section and still been deafened by someone in the trebles.  I have even skipped practice singings to avoid someone who I have a hard time singing with.  My loss.  I know the conventions are our formal occasions, but to my mind, they are also the *best* place for anomalous singers, as even the most piercing fire alarms among us blend into the throng when we are 200 strong.

Tradition is wonderful - it's the reason that sacred harp has survived so long for us to join it.  But let's also be careful of spending too much time asking "what would the southerners do?" lest we become some sort of weird parody of our idea of them.  This vegetarian blesses those who bring dinner items that I can eat - and I've never been so stuffed with vegetarian food as by the Primitive Baptists in Alabama.  I love our nondenominational prayers, and our funny ideas about what constitutes dressing up, and our ruthless inclusiveness and tolerance - which seems to me to be the spirit of the law, regardless of what the letter may say.

So thanks for asking, Matthew - the courtesy is much appreciated.  Please feel welcome to sit next to me anytime you like.  Looking forward to singing with all of you in 48 hours!

Hannah

[Lucas Gonze]

I love this thought, Hanna:

“Let's be careful of spending too much time asking "what would the southerners do?" lest we become some sort of weird parody of our idea of them.”

Yes! 

[Mary Gowins]

Hi all,

I think some really great things have been said, and I'd like to follow up on two points:

1) I don't think anyone is suggesting we do things the way the Southerners do. We are trying to be mindful of the larger singing community, and do things the way the whole community does them. Traveling to sing Sacred Harp works because people know what to expect.

Of course there are some regional variations when it comes to food and attire, but when it comes to singing, a singer should be able to sing in any class across the world, because we all sing in the same style.

2) The point was brought up before as the alto section as a space for women singers. I would like to echo the importance of this space for women's voices. Alto is the one part where you can be assured to see women on the front bench, unleashing their strong voices, and taking a turn helping the song be sung.

As a lady tenor, when I am singing with a man, my voice is often drowned out, which is especially frustrating when that man is singing incorrectly. As an alto, I am assuredly adding to the sound, creating something richer and fuller than before.

Alto gives women an equal part in the tradition and we should endeavor to support their unique role in our singing and in the larger community.

All that being said, you can sing anywhere you feel able, just please take a moment to think about the effect of your singing -- on the singers in your section, the larger class, and the community as a whole.

One last thought -- we really do need more male trebles! I know breaking points can be challenge to navigate, but it's doable with practice & someone to learn from, as any lady tenor will tell you.

Best,
Mary

Mary Gowins
617.680.8066

MaryG...@gmail.com

[Hannah Mae]

This is a fun discussion!  Every couple years something like this breaks out on the mailing list and I just love it.

Mary, that's a good point about knowing what to expect when we travel - it is one of the more wonderful parts of the tradition, to be able to go anywhere and find a home among singers we've never met.  But sometimes - as in this case - there is no single way the whole community does things.  What then?  I didn't mean to call out this discussion as a particular example of "what would the southerners do?"-ing - but that question is something I've heard from time to time throughout the years, being used as an arbiter of The Right Way to Do It, and it's always struck me a little strangely.  I would like to humbly submit the notion that we, if we are mindful of our roots and thoughtful and kind, may someday constitute a tradition of our own.

As for women on the alto front bench - yes!  (And the more male-led the singing is otherwise, the more fervent my "yes.")  Front bench etiquette seems to me a separate but related question.  I am in favor of "anything goes" at a practice singing - when else can we try things that might not work? - but at a convention I second the notion of the front bench of any section being filled with strong, musical voices in the expected timbre... and people who can keep an eye on the leader and beat accurate time.  You will find me in the second row :).

Hannah

[Matthew Lawson]

Short version:
1. Thanks Everyone!
2. Am I really that loud?
3. Is my voice really that obnoxious?
4. My break is a vocal discontinuity the size of a small canyon. I'll
try to sing treble though!
5. Please tell me if you hear me singing and my voice is obnoxious
6. I'm not sure this one admits summary, but roughly, what can we
learn from third wave feminism?

Long version (and it really is exceptionally long):
Thanks Everyone, for your support and great thoughts and discussion.
I've certainly learned a few things and have a better idea how to
proceed with respect
this weekend.
There were a few points made that I wanted to respond to briefly
(mostly to talk about how I feel they relate to me personally), and
also a couple of questions (one very lengthy, philosophical one) which
I am wondering about. In particular I'd like to thank Jennie and Mary,
I know that in on-line discussions it can be especially difficult to
discuss opposing views and I really appreciate you taking the effort
to do so here. My original questions have really been answered (how to
proceed in a polite and respectful way, what the range of opinions on
this subject are), but being of an analytical bent of mind, I'd like
to "troubleshoot" a little, and dig into some of the issues and
questions raised.

First, responses:
I perceive myself as relatively quiet when I sing alto (especially
relative to when I sing Bass or Tenor in my chest voice), so I'm
somewhat surprised at the claim that my singing alto would be able to
either drown out nearby altos or throw off intonation in other
sections, especially in the context of a 200-strong singing where
everyone is doing their best to sing their very lungs out.
My perception of the sacred harp tradition is that everyone just
sings, without much regard to
the niceties of conventional choral music such as vowel matching,
timbre matching, or
even to a certain extent, intonation. Certainly at any singing there
is a core group of singers
(usually the front bench) who's pitch is very good, but past that
pitch (at every singing I've attended or heard a recording of) is at
best approximate, and I can't really see really subtle things like
timbre and overtone matching being detectable, outside of fairly
extreme cases (perhaps a man who could sing the alto part in his chest
voice would be such an extreme case, but falsetto users like myself
can actually blend quite well in timbre and tone with female voices).
It sounds like Jennie in particular has personal experience which
directly contradicts my preconceived notions however, and it is the
case that I've been able to hear individual singers on other benches
who didn't blend before, so I'm probably off-base about all this :-)

Regarding difference between male and female alto tone, I'm not sure
we are talking about the same thing. When I sing alto, I try
(unsuccessfully, of course) to sound like the male altos in this
recording:
http://grooveshark.com/s/David+s+Lamentation/211jkQ?src=5
Rather than the male altos in this recording:
http://grooveshark.com/s/Stayin+Alive/34t5Mb?src=5
And certainly don't sing alto as a male tenor with a high range might.
Is that tone (as represented in the first recording above) really so
different from the sacred harp female alto timbre? To my ear it is
more similar
than (for example) a conventional classical alto is to a sacred harp alto.


Thanks for all the offers of advice on how to deal with a break! I'm
sure I'll spend some time on the treble bench trying to learn the ways
of the male treble. Don't be surprised if I retreat in defeat however,
I have been dealing with this break of mine for 15 years now, and
talked to numerous voice instructors and choir directors about it. My
particular break is one of the nastiest I've heard about; if I sweep
my voice up from my low range to my high range it skips an _entire
minor 7th_ when passing over my break (a fun party trick among
singers, as well as a boon to my yodeling career but otherwise
inconvenient).
My understanding is that this is a fairly common thing among basses
(who also tend to have much stronger falsettos than tenors), and
uncommon among male tenors and women in general (who typically are
blessed with a continuous, if perhaps bumpy transition from chest to
head voices).

Next, Questions:
If I do work up the courage to sing in one of the back rows of altos,
would any of y'all who notice cast an ear in my direction and take
note of any sort of tonal or intonational mismatch I induce and then
let me know at the next break? Blend is something that can be learned
and altered, and I do dearly love singing alto and am happy to
practice to improve my blend.


Second and finally: here comes the lengthy philosophical question, so
if you don't want to listen to me go in depth on the way I feel third
wave feminism is relevant to questions of this nature to build up my
question properly, or if you don't want to hear about the
deconstruction of traditional gender norms, best stop reading.

One of the central tenants of Third wave feminism is that the dream of
equality for all people isn't served by perpetuating a rigid gender
dichotomy. Gender is essentially a societally imposed construct (see,
for example, the more fluid notions of gender in east Asian and
pacific islander communities), and even biological gender is more of a
spectrum than a dichotomy. Preserving this gender dichotomy can at
best result in a separate-but-equal approach to gender, which history
would indicate is problematic.
Singing and voice parts is something with strong gender overtones (pun
not intended!) in our modern society, and men are discouraged from
"singing the girl's parts". In the same way, men are discouraged from
wearing clothing associated with femininity, and insulting and foul
language associated with weakness and submission are associated with
women (language I won't repeat here).
Ultimately removing the stigma from womanhood itself is the eventual
goal, but normalizing non-traditional performative gender
presentations such as men singing traditionally women's vocal parts
and women singing traditionally male vocal parts is certainly not a
thing opposed to that goal.
(Similarly, there was a time when I was an undergraduate where I would
wear a floral skirt once or twice a month and when challenged, would
respond (in the words of Iggy Pop) "I'm not ashamed to dress 'like a
woman' because I don't think it's shameful to be a woman").

So anyhow, it was with some dismay that I learned in doing what I
thought was a generally positive thing (embracing my own
nonconformance to the gender binary) I was (unknowingly) violating a
safe space for women (the alto bench). In the same moment I felt hurt
(on account of my own gender being policed and dichotomized) and
guilty (for invading the safe space as a generally pretty damn
privileged person).

At an intellectual level, however, the question remains in my mind: is
the intentional formation of designated "women only" zones ultimately
helpful to the feminist cause?
How does the fact that this zone is the alto bench (the last part to
be written, missing from some tunes, and often less melodiously
interesting than the other parts) contribute to this?

I think Jennie's point that a man might wait to be invited to the alto
bench is really on point here, regardless of the answer to the above
question, as a male-presenting individual I enjoy a degree of
privilege I definitely shouldn't use to "colonize" the alto section
(especially the front bench, although that's not something I'd even
contemplated).

At the same time, perpetuating a culture of separation like this
seems potentially (as Dan pointed out) actively hurtful to folks who
don't hew to the gender binary.

Anyhow, that's a lot of text, if you made it this far, thanks for reading! :-)
See many of you tomorrow!

-Matthew

The box said windows 98 or better.
So I installed linux.