Adjustments

[Mike Brines]

I changed the rules slightly. I put in that dogs and cats can't be used for fishing or harvesting resources. You can still hunt with them. If you take a dog hunting he's useful. If you take him fishing he sits in the boat and naps. Kinda like my Uncle Bob.

I changed metalworking so you get it automatically when you build a city. It seemed too hard to get. Also, it made no sense at all that you could build a city, and produce Bronze, Iron, Silver and all the other metals, trade them, cash 'em in for wealth, yet not have metalworking. 

In a related matter I changed some of the Ways. Rui seemed too weak. Why would you take it? You need horses and metalworking to get any bonus. And you could get T3 fighters much easier with no cost with the Way of Nature or the Way of the Warrior. Both of which give you T3 fighters immediately. Rui could get T4 armored cavalry later, but you had to have horses and metalworking. 

The game's supposed to be about choices and this isn't much of a choice. Why bother with Rui when you can have T3 Berserkers or rangers right now? Especially when with metalworking and horses you can get the T4 warriors, too? So I took those off the Way of the Warriors and Nature. Now it's a more interesting choice. Do you go for the T3 warriors NOW, and have your benefit in the short run? Or do you go for Rui and get better troops (T4) but only later after you have horses and metalworking? This seems a more reasonable set of options. And anybody can still get mammoth or dinosaur riders.

[Charles Hurst]

Let's see, arbitrary rules changes making big changes to decisions players have already made and can't take back.  Check.  No discussion with players in advance.  Check.  Players beginning to drop. Check.

If one way is weaker, boost it to make it stronger.  Do not boost it and then also weaken others.  You state that once you have metallurgy and horses anyone can make T4 units while ignoring that one of the ways you just took T4 units away from can't build cities so it can't easily get metallurgy like other positions.  Sure it makes sense people can mine ores without having the ability to actually use them.  The chap digging ore out of the ground is not the blacksmith turning the ore into something useful.  Our world today is full of people extracting raw resources that they have no ability to convert into useful products.

Charles

[jpatte...@gmail.com]

To be honest I’m relaxed about it - I’d rather the main rules stayed the same and only changed as we find new things but hey ho

Sent from my iPhone

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[Darth Harkonnen]

I am not dropping because of the rules change.  I'm just not that vested in the game.  It doesn't take that much time to do a turn, but I find I don't care enough to make the time.  

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Regards,

A. Pendragon

 

"The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools." Thucydides

[[MOB] OneEyedBadger]

Nice to meet you!

Thank you for pointing out how nerfing the Way of Nature like that could have caused problems. I thought it was odd the GM chose to nerf other Ways when all he really had to do was add a special T8 unit for Way of Rui and it would have solved entire problem. O.o

I think a T8 'Champion' with First Strike for 8 Wealth would be ideal, as it would be most powerful First Strike unit this side of crewed catapults that I am aware of. -.-

In my specific case I was unaffected, but only because I am not pursuing the affected technology chain as I chose a different route (thank goodness) and I think I can skip T4 altogether as 4*T3 still beats 3*T4 about 2 in 3 times, so T3 units are a cost-effective alternative. ;-)

Way of Machines is getting some serious buffs, being only Way to gain access to both Flying and First Strike and T10 units without external aid, with the added bonus of increased resource generation thrown in just because. :)~

Sad we lost a player already, though. :-(

[ME Brines]

On 10/26/2018 8:51 AM, Charles Hurst wrote:

Let's see, arbitrary rules changes making big changes to decisions players have already made and can't take back.

If you want to change your Way, I won't give you grief, so you can take it back, if you like.

  Check.  No discussion with players in advance.

I did have discussion in advance. Not about everything but there was a lot about the way Mammoths and Dino riders worked. I didn't end up changing those. People seemed content with them as they were.

  Check.  Players beginning to drop. Check.

One guy dropped who wasn't into the game anyway. That's hardly a trend.

If one way is weaker, boost it to make it stronger.  Do not boost it and then also weaken others.

Make a suggestion. If you don't like what I did, tell me how you'd do it. Maybe it's a better way. I'd like to hear it. As I said when we started, the game is a work in progress. I'm trying to test it. When I see three players take the Way of Nature, and one the Way of the Warrior and nobody takes anything else it demonstrates that perhaps the Ways need tinkering. I started thinking about them.

  You state that once you have metallurgy and horses anyone can make T4 units while ignoring that one of the ways you just took T4 units away from can't build cities so it can't easily get metallurgy like other positions. 

The Way of Nature and the Way of the Warrior both give a big advantage early on. You get T3 warriors basically free the first turn if you want. Rui has to have a city (Metalworking) to get a T3 and can add a T4 if they have horses. Both of those take time and $$$ to build the city. If you can get T4s just by having horses and the Way of Nature or Warriors, there's no reason to ever take Rui. Might as well just drop all the ways and say any player can have a T3 if they get horses. The way they were set up before, Rui was pointless. You get everything they have to pay money for free if you took the Way of Nature or the Way of Warriors. A choice that only a fool would take isn't really a choice.

This way, if you want a big advantage early on--take the Way of Nature or the Warrior. You get T3 fighters when everybody else only has T1s. If you want a T4 LATER on take Rui. It gives you a choice--a bonus now or a better bonus later. The way it was gave you both bonus' now and screw Rui--what's the point? Why wait and take metalworking and screw around looking for horses when I just need Nature or Warriors to get the same thing? That's not a choice. The game's supposed to be about choices. I offer you alternatives and you take what you think works better for you. It's not supposed to be a game about, here are one good choice and several flawed ones. Are you clever enough to choose the only good choice?

I understand you don't like me changing what you could get. But if you want to switch right now to Rui or something else, I won't make a fuss. Do you think Rui is a HUGE unstoppable deal now? I think it's just competitive with the others. But if you think it's WAY BETTER then change to it. Like I said, I won't make a fuss.

Sure it makes sense people can mine ores without having the ability to actually use them.  The chap digging ore out of the ground is not the blacksmith turning the ore into something useful.  Our world today is full of people extracting raw resources that they have no ability to convert into useful products.

From a realistic point of view gold is about the only metal you can just pick up off the ground and use. Everything else needs smelting. Especially bronze. You don't find that in nature. It seemed weird to me you could be producing metal resources and selling them, trade them, make wealth off them, but don't have metalworking. How do you have an iron mine or a city that produces bronze yet you can't actually use it to make things? How is it worth wealth if it has no use?

Also, why the fuss? Nobody had bought it. It's not like you lost money by the change. If you're worried it means barbarians can't have metalworking now--what's the point? You already have T3 Rangers. Metalworking gives you nothing you don't already have. And to get metalworking costs people 300 wealth to make a city. You have T3 Rangers for free.

Charles

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[ME Brines]

That's the intent unless there are major problems. As you've seen I haven't done much changes except for this updating of the Ways. Half the players haven't even chosen one anyway. I figured fixing them now was better than later when the problems got worse and affected more people. The game seems to run fine. There aren't many problems since it is a development of several other previous games.

I do appreciate feedback. So if you have questions/comments, please let me know.

[ME Brines]

Early on the game is slow while you build up a base. It changes when you start building cities. At that point you get a LOT more money and trading becomes important. The hunting and fiddling around bashing raptors and stuff are mostly entertainment until you get enough to build cities. Then it's more an economic military game where you make $$, build an army--that can just brush aside most of the petty threats from nature. The main occupation is building cities, trading, and deciding how much to use to build cities and how much to use protecting them from the other players--a much different game than what it currently is.

The harvesting and sheep domestication rules give barbarians without cities a means to get resources to trade so they remain competitive with civilizations. But again, they need a lot of people which takes $$. It's choices. Do you recruit hunters and fishermen that are cheap or more expensive warriors that don't harvest any better? The same guns vs butter argument the city dwellers have. A well-run barbarian could be a threat to a civilized kingdom.

And speaking of kingdoms, siring heirs and avoiding revolts and unrest become more important when you have a lot of troops and cities that can revolt. When you're walking around with 75 hunters, there's not much I can do to spice things up that isn't petty--especially since you're threatened by raptors and troglodytes and bear, oh my. But later on, when those things are no longer so scary because you have a couple of legions of troops, that one of your legion commanders decides he'd make a better emperor becomes the bigger issue and threat.

If you don't find the game so interesting now--and you haven't done much to make it interesting--it'll definitely pick up when you develop a civilization. But some players seem to think all this game consists of is wandering around and futzing with dinosaurs. If I were playing, I wouldn't waste my efforts to explore half the map just to find the same crap I had back home. I'd find a couple good hunting spots, hunt them out, get a few hundred people together, and a few resources, and then start building cities. Then use the $$ from those to build more cities and gain more resources to expand further.

There's no point in attacking a campsite. (Or defending one) If you capture it you can't wipe the player out. He just displaces and gets another campsite. Unless he's storing resources, the campsite has no value. He just moves. Until you have cities, there is no point to wars unless you think the enemy has something worth looting or you just want to get an XP or he annoyed you. Barbarians don't need to defend anything.

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[ME Brines]

On 10/26/2018 11:08 AM, [MOB] OneEyedBadger wrote:

Nice to meet you!

Thank you for pointing out how nerfing the Way of Nature like that could have caused problems. I thought it was odd the GM chose to nerf other Ways when all he really had to do was add a special T8 unit for Way of Rui and it would have solved entire problem. O.o

OK. This is definitely an alternative. I looked at it as armored knights (The T4 Rui units) seemed to be the apex of the military. Giving Rui something even better than a T4 would be an option. 

I think a T8 'Champion' with First Strike for 8 Wealth would be ideal, as it would be most powerful First Strike unit this side of crewed catapults that I am aware of. -.-

How's he a First Strike? How does he get to whack archers without them hitting him coming up on them? Does he have a bow?
How about instead of this maybe Rui has access to musketeers, maybe T5 First Strike? It's better than the T4s available to the other ways, but maybe you have to have a certain number of cities first before you can have gunpowder? I'd been considering "Alchemists" who had gunpowder weapons. Maybe a better option is to give the Nature boys back their mounted rangers and go this route. What do you think?

In my specific case I was unaffected, but only because I am not pursuing the affected technology chain as I chose a different route (thank goodness) and I think I can skip T4 altogether as 4*T3 still beats 3*T4 about 2 in 3 times, so T3 units are a cost-effective alternative. ;-)

And it's true. If you have three times the toughness of the enemy, it doesn't matter what he has--he's dead so he loses anyway. The toughness only matters if the battle isn't overwhelming for one side.

Way of Machines is getting some serious buffs, being only Way to gain access to both Flying and First Strike and T10 units without external aid, with the added bonus of increased resource generation thrown in just because. :)~

But is it too much? As it stands their flying unit is weaker than terror-dachtyls, and their clockies are just the same as mammoths/dino riders. Anybody else can have the same things by other means. I'm thinking they ought to have to have metalworking to make the clockies (duh) so they'd have to have a city first.

Sad we lost a player already, though. :-(

It ahppens. As long as we can recruit some more, it's not a problem.

[David Micheal Coddy]

I see Charles was also nature guy so why he was triggered. 😆

I do not care so much about lossing T4 - I have no intention of building them even if access remained as I think 4T3 better investment as they will win all tied losses outcomes because they have slightly more guys than T4.

Plus, now that it is clear Rangers can choose to use or not use First Strike they have added versality.

However, that is only because of my POV and it would be unwise and unrealistic to think everyone else sees things like I do! If I thought like GM I would be triggered GM took away my T4!!! As GM made it clear he predicts Toughness is most important thing about unit!!😁

I think nerfs on other Ways not needed, and just make musketeers or elite guards for Rui and then everyone is happy and Rui gets buffed.🤑

If nature guys can find enough places to harvest their limited selection of resources AND make at least one civilized friend to trade with I think they are fine. Not having to build cities does have some benefits early on I think, though Machine might be best long term.💩

Hard to say as lots depends on resources available.🐒

No way to know until the GM sees a game or two played out. 😄

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[Kevin Darrow]

What about a tl3 bard that takes half the damage as standard units.  The opposite of first strike in a way.  Survives the fight... thinking dwarves might also fit

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[Daniel B. Karpouzian]

Ahhh man, if dwarves come in, I’m going to have to switch from machine :(

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-Daniel B. Karpouzian

[David Micheal Coddy]

Thought you could already have dwarves as flavor descript of you guyz?

[ME Brines]

Certainly, so be a dwarf machinist!

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[Frank Lordi]

I'd rather have  a tough heavy infantry as way of Rui

OR OR the ability to have units fight as one rather than individuals.  <remember the old 'army' units from civ?

Through training and discipline you form legions that move and fight as one.  Although that'd maybe be too powerful.

If so then i go back to wanting a good infantry and or beefed up knight.   <Aknight in full 15th century plate is way more than 33% harder to kill than a 10th century viking i'd tink.

<also i dislike the T5 muskiteer because well early muskets were not 66% better than longbows!