Problems with Alienations

[Christian Truog]

Problems with this game: 1) No ship upkeep means every war between two space faring races will turn into an endless war of attrition. 2) Unexplained and apparently arbitrary popularity system allows a non space faring NPC race to develop space travel, catch up in technology and outpace a more developed race (more than twice their size) in a war of attrition. 3) Unexplained and apparently meaningless “Culture” system, which was supposed to give some kind of bonus dealing with NPC races, becomes useless when the typical NPC race doesn’t even know what “Negotiation” means.

[Charles Hurst]

1)  If you've been reading my fun and games with the cone, you'll see I've been trying different types of ships and strategies, so far without success.  And the cone is slowly consuming my position.  No stress... ^_^  The key is trying different approaches.  Mike's been leaving clues in every conflict I've read in the newsfax, at the very least how many of each ship class survives.  And it looks like most people are picking up on what to build to take the NPCs down and are starting to do so.  Me, I've R&Ded energy beam and spinal mount, that fracker cone is going down... In two turns. *sigh*  Gotta wait for greenies to go vet.  Looks like if I want to do it next turn I'm also going to be testing out what happens the first time you knock a shield down in combat, does it stay down or come back up before other ships can hit it?  I'm $7500 shipyard capacity short of what I'd need to take him down in one shot (29,000 SMEB damage versus I think a roughly 1v20000EB-10000S/20000).  No anti-matter engines on starships to self-destruct in the cone's mouth before it eats the ship... :)

2  Yay!  The game isn't all super-strong veteran players easily knocking out newbies.  New players joining that read the old newsfaxes will have clues what to do.  Yeah, it sucks, but I'll trade you my cone for your aggressive NPC any day of the week.  You'd better beat them to energy beams and shields first, just a warning, or you'll be in the running with me for first player taken out by an NPC.

3)  If they have a reason to hate yer guts, that may count as a big negative that counters your high culture.  For some reason I got no culture the first turn, despite not having huge taxes, and consequently my culture is in the crapper and will stay there apparently forever, so I understand frustration with culture as clues are few as to what to do.  You should probably try and R&D communications with the NPC so you know their language and culture, that might allow your culture edge to count more.  If you're going for high culture, I suspect you're going all Daniel Jackson, eh?  So you should probably keep your taxes ultra-low and start R&Ding something related to immortality and psychic powers or what not going to become enlightened beings of pure energy capable of moving in all those extra dimensions with immense powers.  Then you get to fight the really nasty bad guys!

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[Joey Browning]

I admit I have no idea how to really ramp up my culture, but I've been doing well with NPC's anyway - almost all of them want to be my friends and join me. And you really can do some interesting things with the way you design ships - I have one design that will either be the best thing since sliced bread or will fail horrible, and until I get in a real fight, I have no idea which it will be. I will say this: I'll trade your cone for my flipping zombie death plague. 100% of my R&D is going into that and so I can't try out any neat new toys I was working toward <sigh>.

[Christian Truog]

Low taxes means you have 0 control over what your people reasearch. I had extremely low taxes for several turns. All my people would research is ship tech (also meaningless, judging from battle reports) as opposed to techs which would actually yield profitable results and create marketable products for the companies supposedly doing the research. This would only really make sense if I was ruling over bloodthirsty klingons or something. However, when war actually starts, my people become the biggest pacifists you've ever seen and the amount of money I've needed to spend on maintaining control is obscene. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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From: Charles Hurst <charle...@gmail.com>;
To: <fantasy-na...@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: Re: Problems with Alienations
Sent: Sun, Oct 27, 2013 10:25:47 PM

[Christian Truog]

BTW. My explorers found a coded key that will "Release the elder gods from their slumber." My leaders are suggesting I use it as a weapon against the Aslan. I'm planning to launch it into a star, instead. You're welcome.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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From: Joey Browning <carg...@gmail.com>;

To: <fantasy-na...@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: Re: Problems with Alienations

Sent: Sun, Oct 27, 2013 10:34:30 PM

[Joey Browning]

But, but...what if the Elder Goda are nice and sweet and benevolent? Geeze man...

[Charles Hurst]

Er, well, no clue why your people are ignoring your directives for R&D, they shouldn't be doing so, you should be able to pick R&D targets.  That sounds like something to have taken up with Mike, might just be he misread your orders.  Unless he's specifically saying low taxes means you don't get to pick R&D, but that really sounds like something that should be in the rule book.  As to control, best thing I didn't R&D was that aphrodisiac.  Cryonics only worked for a short while.  Neither of those were my picks, GM accidents that I just rolled with.

[Charles Hurst]

Nope, zombie plague is all yours.  Sounds like you were R&Ding super soldiers and some of the test bugs escaped...

[Charles Hurst]

On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Christian Truog <christi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

BTW. My explorers found a coded key that will "Release the elder gods from their slumber." My leaders are suggesting I use it as a weapon against the Aslan. I'm planning to launch it into a star, instead. You're welcome.

Thank you!  Unless launching it into a star is what "turns the key"... 

[Geth Neural Network]

What are these "taxes" you speak of?

[Christian Truog]

I did. He specifically said that production gained through low production. I didn't earn, therefore I did not get to allocate where the time goes.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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From: Charles Hurst <charle...@gmail.com>;
To: <fantasy-na...@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: Re: Problems with Alienations

Sent: Sun, Oct 27, 2013 11:24:35 PM

Er, well, no clue why your people are ignoring your directives for R&D, they shouldn't be doing so, you should be able to pick R&D targets.  That sounds like something to have taken up with Mike, might just be he misread your orders.  Unless he's specifically saying low taxes means you don't get to pick R&D, but that really sounds like something that should be in the rule book.  As to control, best thing I didn't R&D was that aphrodisiac.  Cryonics only worked for a short while.  Neither of those were my picks, GM accidents that I just rolled with. On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 6:43 PM, Christian Truog <christi...@yahoo.com> wrote: Low taxes means you have 0 control over what your people reasearch. I had extremely low taxes for several turns. All my people would research is ship tech (also meaningless, judging from battle reports) as opposed to techs which would actually yield profitable results and create marketable products for the companies supposedly doing the research. This would only really make sense if I was ruling over bloodthirsty klingons or something. However, when war actually starts, my people become the biggest pacifists you've ever seen and the amount of money I've needed to spend on maintaining control is obscene.

[Christian Truog]

Correction: I did not get to allocate where the tech goes.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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From: Christian Truog <christi...@yahoo.com>;
To: fantasy-na...@googlegroups.com <fantasy-na...@googlegroups.com>;

Subject: Re: Problems with Alienations

Sent: Sun, Oct 27, 2013 11:26:22 PM

[Joey Browning]

Nope. Apparently picked it up while exploring somewhere. No super-soldiers here. I went with the robotic ones ;)

--

[Joey Browning]

My free maket scientists went with combat drugs and aphrodisiacs. Eh, there are worse things. But that was on like turn 2 or something. Since then, I really don't know what they've been up to beyond maybe ship tech.

[Christian Truog]

Then you are screwed anyway because if the Aslan get a hold of it they will be sure to use it. Then you will have to face the horrors of Space Kitteh riding Shoggoths into battle.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

---

From: Charles Hurst <charle...@gmail.com>;
To: <fantasy-na...@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: Re: Problems with Alienations

Sent: Sun, Oct 27, 2013 11:26:26 PM

On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Christian Truog <christi...@yahoo.com> wrote: BTW. My explorers found a coded key that will "Release the elder gods from their slumber." My leaders are suggesting I use it as a weapon against the Aslan. I'm planning to launch it into a star, instead. You're welcome. Thank you!  Unless launching it into a star is what "turns the key"...

[ME Brines]

On 10/27/2013 2:10 PM, Christian Truog wrote:

Problems with this game: 1) No ship upkeep means every war between two space faring races will turn into an endless war of attrition.

Possibly

2) Unexplained and apparently arbitrary popularity system allows a non space faring NPC race to develop space travel, catch up in technology and outpace a more developed race (more than twice their size) in a war of attrition.

You mean the Aslan? No, I think it's more a matter of problem #1. It's too difficult given limitations on shipbuilding to make enough ships to smash people unless they're relatively small.

3) Unexplained and apparently meaningless “Culture” system, which was supposed to give some kind of bonus dealing with NPC races, becomes useless when the typical NPC race doesn’t even know what “Negotiation” means.

--

Some of that is because of the nature of the races encountered. The Aslan wouldn't deal regardless. You haven't met too many other races.

You left out 4= that hive mind races earn more R&D points because they can achieve a greater % growth. The R&D points should have been awarded based on some other system than growth.

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[Joey Browning]

Well, um...it's your game. If R&D is out of whack, make some changes. Maybe hive minds are less creative due to having no differing points of view, so penalize them. Or make R&D dependent on economic output and population size. Or...whatever. Just balance things. Or even do it by fiat - more "interesting" things happen to hive minds.

Honestly, it's really damn hard to balance individual minds vs. hive minds in these types of games, really. U can see it taking some trial and error.

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[ME Brines]

Again, I'm reluctant to tinker.
Most of these "problems" go back to the basic design.
But it is interesting to see them play out.

On 10/27/2013 6:53 PM, Joey Browning wrote:

Well, um...it's your game. If R&D is out of whack, make some changes. Maybe hive minds are less creative due to having no differing points of view, so penalize them. Or make R&D dependent on economic output and population size. Or...whatever. Just balance things. Or even do it by fiat - more "interesting" things happen to hive minds.

Honestly, it's really damn hard to balance individual minds vs. hive minds in these types of games, really. U can see it taking some trial and error.

On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 11:00 PM, ME Brines <s...@cox.net> wrote:

On 10/27/2013 2:10 PM, Christian Truog wrote:

Problems with this game: 1) No ship upkeep means every war between two space faring races will turn into an endless war of attrition.

Possibly

2) Unexplained and apparently arbitrary popularity system allows a non space faring NPC race to develop space travel, catch up in technology and outpace a more developed race (more than twice their size) in a war of attrition.

You mean the Aslan? No, I think it's more a matter of problem #1. It's too difficult given limitations on shipbuilding to make enough ships to smash people unless they're relatively small.

3) Unexplained and apparently meaningless �Culture� system, which was supposed to give some kind of bonus dealing with NPC races, becomes useless when the typical NPC race doesn�t even know what �Negotiation� means.

--

Some of that is because of the nature of the races encountered. The Aslan wouldn't deal regardless. You haven't met too many other races.

You left out 4= that hive mind races earn more R&D points because they can achieve a greater % growth. The R&D points should have been awarded based on some other system than growth.

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[Duston Horacek]

Could just require hive minds to directly invest and do away with natural R&D growth. That would help some.

AN has a lot of potential as it's RP, so my vote is adjust on the fly. :) As the Space Brotherhood my races ideal goal is to conquer enough races to genetically sequence them to try and alter the SB followers DNA to give them the full mantle if divinity and not just the tiny spark they have. Their ultimate goal is ascension. They do this through total devotion to the SB precepts that spiritual ascension is attained by pursuiif scientific research and advancement. So it makes logical sense for me to directly invest rather than gaining natural growth.
I will start a genetic sequencing program once we have a few more worlds to sample from.

I also think no ship maint means vast fleets of scrap being used as warships shielding the more advanced ships from damage in a massive engagement a likely scenario. Now the second engagement will help solve this as most the old ships will be destroyed. It does sound Starwars-ish.

Sent from Mytouch4G

On Oct 28, 2013 12:25 AM, "ME Brines" <s...@cox.net> wrote:

Again, I'm reluctant to tinker.
Most of these "problems" go back to the basic design.
But it is interesting to see them play out.

On 10/27/2013 6:53 PM, Joey Browning wrote:

Well, um...it's your game. If R&D is out of whack, make some changes. Maybe hive minds are less creative due to having no differing points of view, so penalize them. Or make R&D dependent on economic output and population size. Or...whatever. Just balance things. Or even do it by fiat - more "interesting" things happen to hive minds.

Honestly, it's really damn hard to balance individual minds vs. hive minds in these types of games, really. U can see it taking some trial and error.

On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 11:00 PM, ME Brines <s...@cox.net> wrote:

On 10/27/2013 2:10 PM, Christian Truog wrote:

Problems with this game: 1) No ship upkeep means every war between two space faring races will turn into an endless war of attrition.

Possibly

2) Unexplained and apparently arbitrary popularity system allows a non space faring NPC race to develop space travel, catch up in technology and outpace a more developed race (more than twice their size) in a war of attrition.

You mean the Aslan? No, I think it's more a matter of problem #1. It's too difficult given limitations on shipbuilding to make enough ships to smash people unless they're relatively small.

3) Unexplained and apparently meaningless “Culture” system, which was supposed to give some kind of bonus dealing with NPC races, becomes useless when the typical NPC race doesn’t even know what “Negotiation” means.

--

Some of that is because of the nature of the races encountered. The Aslan wouldn't deal regardless. You haven't met too many other races.

You left out 4= that hive mind races earn more R&D points because they can achieve a greater % growth. The R&D points should have been awarded based on some other system than growth.

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[Charles Hurst]

On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Duston Horacek <wynd...@gmail.com> wrote:

I also think no ship maint means vast fleets of scrap being used as warships shielding the more advanced ships from damage in a massive engagement a likely scenario. Now the second engagement will help solve this as most the old ships will be destroyed. It does sound Starwars-ish.

Actually, the combat system seems to have roughly three phases.  Everyone started in phase 1, which is basically armor/missiles/fighters/minelayers.  The second phase is with gaining energy beams and shields, and in this phase the race is to build the biggest ships, as they are more likely to survive or be able to take out smaller ships with no damage (ship fire is not combined).  Phase 1 species are racing R&D to EB and S technology against extinction when going to war with phase 2 species.  Phase 3 species are building meson projectors/disruptors, so their ships gain true complexity, with the need to use spinal mount meson/disrupter weapons to reach through shields, more armor for ships to survive hits, and enough shields to render phase 1 and 2 ships mostly useless.  Phase 1 allows you to build a huge variety of sizes of ships, phase 2 is biggest only, and phase 3 will be interesting to see what sizes people use, though I suspect with the shielding requirements they'll still be huge, or perhaps a big variety as size 20 meson projectors have spinal mounts so can fire first at long range and do internal damage against ships, so they can become a sort of "advanced fighter".  The cone's EB blast is 20k which in one shot apparently destroyed 20k worth of my ships, it didn't have to fire once and hit and destroy one ship and fire thousands of times to take out the 10,010 ships it destroyed.  If it had had to do so, I would have been able to perhaps flee with a large chunk of my fleet.  Ah, there is a phase 3b, gaining anti-matter missiles and Q-bombs, which gets truly nasty, as I don't need to beat your fleet, I just need to get in range to fire a missile or maybe due a close approach hyperjump to nuke your planets.  Destroy all your planets and you are dead, just a matter of time.

The other issue I ponder is I'm not sure what reason would impel a player to let another player they run into survive, especially if they don't trust them.  Is there a sufficient profit of some kind to merit such?  As there is no intel, and giving decision tree of worst case scenarios, it would seem to be a case of build like crazy and then hit hard and fast and hope for the best.

Charles of the Dirdir

[Duston Horacek]

Yep, and that leaves players with masses of phase one and phase two ships, which will jusy be cannon fodder in phase three.

Sent from Mytouch4G

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[Charles Hurst]

On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Duston Horacek <wynd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yep, and that leaves players with masses of phase one and phase two ships, which will jusy be cannon fodder in phase three.

I think Mike pointed that out a few emails back, that they'll probably all be destroyed in the first round of combat.  Or I suppose you could use them as a colonial fleet, i.e. suppressing the natives on your conquered worlds, or what not.  That way when there's an uprising they don't have access to your good stuff and it'll be easy to swat aside anything they do manage to grab or build.  Drat, now I'm jonesing for a good Honor Harrington novel...

[Duston Horacek]

Nod. It would get your good ships closer. They would be good to soak up damage from the first shots, but little else. Which is the way of things with no upkeep.

Ever read The Ecolitan Enigma by L.E. Modesitt jr? Modesitt has some very good books with differing view points than the norm in regards to war, society, and preventing them.

Sent from Mytouch4G

On Oct 28, 2013 1:12 PM, "Charles Hurst" <charle...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Charles Hurst]

It sounds familiar, I'll have to google it.  He's a favorite author (which is one of many any more, and unfortunately too many are no longer with us - I need to get around to figuring out those still alive and signing up for their email newsletters :).

[Duston Horacek]

A fellow recluse fan? I hope so, very few of us around these days. Hehe

Sent from Mytouch4G

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[Charles Hurst]

Found and read a bunch of them in the library a while back (pre-kids).  Recluse is the one that starts out with the blacksmith discovering he can do black magic, where black magic is slow order based magic, and is in balance with quick chaotic white magic?

My book reading has seriously declined over the last five years to reading free sci-fi/fantasy ebooks off Amazon (a few good, a few stinkers, many that demonstrate the immense value of a good editor in the writing process and that writers need mentors and feedback to get better and past the first book honeymoon :), mostly due to work's long commute were I have to drive or talk to the driver and being married with two kids.  The stack of real books is slowly creeping up in size as I just can't pass up on the occasionally here and there purchase.  Having read a few blurbs, I do remember the Ecolitan series, I think I've read a few of them, but if not, I'm going to have to, just the blurbs are immensely good.  I'm listening to old Freakanomics podcasts on the commute, and that's like little doses of the book.  I wish I'd had a better idea what economists do when I was in high school, twould have made it a possible career option.

[Duston Horacek]

Yep, thats the series.
I haven't ”read” a book in years, thank goodness for audible.com

Sent from Mytouch4G

[The Janari]

"Now I'm jonesing for a good Honor Harrington novel."  Too bad he stopped writing those years ago.

--

[Joey Browning]

Take a look at Brit Ringel. Ebook only I think,  but "This Corner of the Universe" and "No Way to Start a War" are well done and entertaining. Very good for a self published series. He even goes to some lengths to explain away some obvious physics errors from the first book and does a decent job of it. Well worth the $2.99 per book.

[ME Brines]

Free Download http://www.amazon.com/The-Spear-of-Destiny-ebook/dp/B005P1B1P2/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1379079546&sr=1-7

On 10/28/2013 11:25 AM, Charles Hurst wrote:

Found and read a bunch of them in the library a while back (pre-kids).  Recluse is the one that starts out with the blacksmith discovering he can do black magic, where black magic is slow order based magic, and is in balance with quick chaotic white magic?

My book reading has seriously declined over the last five years to reading free sci-fi/fantasy ebooks off Amazon (a few good, a few stinkers, many that demonstrate the immense value of a good editor in the writing process and that writers need mentors and feedback to get better and past the first book honeymoon :), mostly due to work's long commute were I have to drive or talk to the driver and being married with two kids.  The stack of real books is slowly creeping up in size as I just can't pass up on the occasionally here and there purchase.  Having read a few blurbs, I do remember the Ecolitan series, I think I've read a few of them, but if not, I'm going to have to, just the blurbs are immensely good.  I'm listening to old Freakanomics podcasts on the commute, and that's like little doses of the book.  I wish I'd had a better idea what economists do when I was in high school, twould have made it a possible career option.