Rumors of Wars

[William Cutting]

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the Age ?

And Jesus answered and said to them, TAKE HEED THAT NO MAN DECEIVE YOU .

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many
And you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that you be not troubled

Rumors of Wars seems to give a False Prophet a pretty large bank account . Fear is a major form of control , it one of the strongest ways the mind can be Manipulated . Government uses fear to control people every day . Fear is what drives people to do things that they normally would not do . Every day on mainstream media you can witness how Fear propaganda is used to control people . Wars are started through Fear and even when the reason for the war is found to be False it is too late , the fear has done its job . Manipulating people through fear is the way things are done in this world and it has Always been that way .

After 3 False books countless False "sermons" , who knows how many timelines of nonsense vanity worthless garbage ! Wars and rumors leading to the non return of Christ 3 or 4 times depending on who's counting , All False prophet Ronald Weinland can do is put on his website a post PREPARING FOR WW3
Why ? Because fear works ! It worked for HWA way back in the 30s 40s and 50s to build a church of fearful people , children who are made to run laps around the track in preparation for the nazi invasion . At least 4 generations of people manipulated by fear and rumors of a World War .
This is Prophecy fulfilled if you can see what I'm saying , all these people have not followed Christ in these things but have been conditioned to think a certain way by Man . The word of God specifically states that the believer is in a war that is not against flesh and blood , this is an unseen war the one who believes in Truth wages against Lies . Satan is the father of the Lie , Governments Lie , Religions Lie , people are killed money is made business is done ........

Until people wake up and realize the true enemy at the gate , false prophets and teachers like Ronald , they are casualties in a War they truly never understood .

Daniel 8:25
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, AND BY PEACE SHALL DESTROY MANY : he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

[William Cutting]

Herbert W Armstrong - Wikipedia

International expansion

During the 1950s and 1960s, the church continued to expand and the radio program was broadcast in England, Australia, the Philippines, Latin America, and Africa. In 1953, The World Tomorrow began to air on Radio Luxembourg, making it possible to hear the program throughout much of Europe.[28] The beginning of the European broadcast provides the context of a booklet published in 1956 called 1975 in Prophecy! In this book Armstrong put forward a controversial vision of what the world could look like by 1975—featuring illustrations of mass burials and tidal waves destroying cities.[31] Overall he thought that World War III and Christ's glorious return were at the doorstep and that world peace and utopia would follow. Armstrong believed that God had exciting plans for mankind that would see the end of such wars—though the message went far beyond an earthly utopia.[32]

Several books and booklets focused on the key events that would signal the imminence of Christ's return, and taught of a specific end-time prophecy to be fulfilled, manifested in the form of European peacekeeping forces surrounding Jerusalem, at which time God's Church would be taken to a place of protection, or "place of safety"—possibly Petra in Jordan.[18] World War III was predicted to be triggered by a "United States of Europe" led by Germany which would destroy both the United States and the United Kingdom.[33] From the place of safety they would continue the work and prepare to help Christ establish Utopia upon His return.

[William Cutting]

Most people who came from the worldwide church can understand that the concept of Hell where people go to a place of torture forever is a False Doctrine a perverted Lie of the Devil . Yet people wholeheartedly believe that God wants people to repent or else they will be destroyed in a nuclear war . This is just as perverted as the false doctrine of hell , because it is a False prophecy .

I posted the above , Word of Man (HWA) euro beast power war that destroys America and UK .

Word of God - Rev 13 3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and **ALL THE WORLD** WONDERED after the beast. (https://biblehub.com/greek/2296.htm)

7And it was given to him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: AND POWER WAS GIVEN HIM OVER ALL KINDREDS ,AND TONGUES , AND NATIONS " all all all! Not Europe not America not Uk , ALL !
How ? Through nuclear war ? NO !
14And deceives them that dwell on the earth (https://biblehub.com/greek/4105.htm)

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that worked miracles before him, with which he DECEIVED them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. (https://biblehub.com/greek/4105.htm)

In conclusion MANY have been led astray by rumors of Wars , and many will continue to be throughout "Christianity" . But is it the teaching of Christ they are really following ? Or is it the teaching of Man ? Time has told for those with eyes . In those days men will seek death and not find it .

[William Cutting]

True prophecy from the Word of God shows a Falling away from Christ before His return . It's Not a Falling away from any church man has built .

True prophecy is not about WW3 , but about the entire World being Deceived in the end (Psalm 2) . It is a Worldwide falling away from Christianity as religion .
It will Affect every denomination and non denomination , every group ! Right down to every single individual who claims Jesus Christ. This falling away happens over the course of a Generation and comes to a climax for a very short time . This generation is spoken of in Matthew 24 , we are much closer to the end of that time now , a generation is 70 - 120 years , at the end of this Christianity as this world knows it will cease to exist . This is the true magnitude of a "falling away" and that is how truly far off men like Ronald Weinland are . False Shepherds like him are a major contribution to this falling away process over time , they steal people's money and kill them spiritually , they teach people lies and do not prepare people to stand in the coming time .

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

[Mike (DDTFA)]

The problem is that the Bible is written so symbolically that it can mean anything you want.  Lots of people such as Herbert Armstrong and Ron Weinland have made lots of money claiming to be able to interpret the book of Revelation.

[William Cutting]

So Much Money . A den of Robbers , and they call it God's Church . Money blinded them all in the end .

[rterlecki17]

Yes

[martin]

"So Much Money . A den of Robbers , and they call it God's Church . Money blinded them all in the end"

Firstly, what is your connection or experience with the WWCoG?

Not that I need to defend the WWCoG, but you seem to have a bee in your bonnet regarding the WWCoG.

I can not speak to what was done after HWA died.....

WC "So Much Money"

To which I say, so what? Many organizations religious and non-religious have lots of money.

The WWCoG had not one, but two large auditing companies, audit their finances every year.

In addition the WWCoG published a yearly, public financial statement every year in their church/news newspaper.

WC "A den of Robbers"

Says who? If you disagree with the WWCoG theology, then that is one thing. This is just a blank accusation.

Who robbed who? People sent donations (ie tithes or free will offerings, like every other church on planet earth).

Do you have a specific example? The state of California (based on member accusations), did not find any fault, and dropped any legal proceedings. If you want to say they stole money, have a specific example.

WC  " Money blinded them all in the end"

Again, even though I can not speak to what was done after HWA died. This is just a baseless accusation. No example of any thing is given.

For example. With Ronald Weinland. There are PLENTY of examples, to support similar statements in regards to him.

Ron used TITHE money to live a hedonistic lifestyle, what he did with his own money was his own business. The fact is, if anything was specifically earmarked as tithe money and NOT salary, was abused. Tithe money is meant to finance preaching the Gospel, not for buying Fredrik's of Hollywood panties.

[Dean]

"Ron used TITHE money to live a hedonistic lifestyle, what he did with his own money was his own business. "

Ron is just following the example of his mentor, Herbie...

http://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/p/treasures-of-king.html

[William Cutting]

There is No physical organization that can call itself God's Church . This understanding ensnares people . I believe HWA was sincere in his beliefs going on the understanding he had at the time . For all the good things that were given to the worldwide church there was just as much error . It is up to individuals in their own life to seek God and figure out where they are and carry on . HWA lived at the beginning of the end time generation , he is not alive at the end of it. The best way for me to answer you is by giving you an example . HWA taught church eras , this is a doctrine that sounds wonderful and logical but it is false (it's food sacrificed to idols) In other words it's not from Christ's table . This one false doctrine here is enogh for the whole ship to sink . The word of God is here a little there a little when it states that "the seven candlesticks which you saw are the seven churches."rev1:20) and you see this again when speaking of the two witnesses in revelation 11:4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." you must understand that the witnesses are NOT two people , but 2 churches , and these churches are not physical organizations but spiritual . In regards to the seven churches in revelation 2and3 there are 5 told to,repent and 2 are not told to repent . There is some sin in the midst of 5 of these churches that needs to be repented of . All 7 have important characteristics . The false doctrine of church eras promotes one physical organization passed down through time and it cuts people off from understanding the truth .

Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13And in the middle of the seven candlesticks one like to the Son of man
16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shines in his strength.

20The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which you saw are the seven churches.

Ronald carried on the false doctrine of church eras and claimed that HWA was the Philadelphia era and that after he died the church went Laodicean and all were spewed out of Gods mouth , then he dug his grave even deeper by saying he and his church were no longer part of rev 2&3 at all because he was better than all and was going to rescue everyone with his false prophecy . That didn't work out as planned . Ron was right about one thing tho , 17Because you say, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. He was exactly that lifted up with a list of "truths" all the spiritual goodies he boasts about that are in a constant state of change . Now he's naked , no white robe just filthy rags of his own brand of righteousness . Needs to repent , but he knows better so it's all too bad .

What I said above about a falling away from Christ is what is happening and it will come to a climax soon "10Because you have kept the word of my patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation, which shall come on all the world, to try them that dwell on the earth. 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which you have, that no man take your crown. People will have to experience this time to have their hearing sharpened up , it's not something that happened in the time of HWA.

[martin]

What is your connection to the WWCoG? Were you a member? Or is it just history to you?

[William Cutting]

It's all History to me . Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't HWA also teach that Genesis 1 was not the original creation ? Didn't he write about that in Mystery of the Ages ?

[William Cutting]

I do not have any bad feeling toward HWA or anyone who came from the wwcog . I believe in helping people , bringing things to mind so they can recover themselves . Doctrine of the Sabbath , the resurrection from the dead of the first fruits at Christ's return , the resurrection to Judgment . How God shows his plan through His appointed times are all biblical and true . I would even go so far to say that the wwcog was a begining of a gathering of spiritual Judah if you understand what it says in Gen 49 / John 15 and other places in scripture about Judah in the last days . I think people that were involved with the wwcog have the greatest opportunity . The thing is HWA became an Idol shepherd and in the eyes of so many he can do no wrong . People should look at the books of Kings and Chronicles and take a lesson in what can happen when you follow one man . Solomon was wise but didn't do what was right at the end of his life and because of his sin the kingdom was divided and many people were destroyed . Notice how weather a king was good or bad the people were in accordance with the king at the time . When Kings did the will of God the people followed and prospered , when kings went into idolatry all the people followed into Idolatry .
2 Timothy 3 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Will people let themselves be guided by scripture or do they believe something else is the ultimate thing . Did Herbert W Armstrong have a lot of truth from scripture , yes of course but can people admit the error is my question ? Can they recognize it and move forward in their own life ? HWA is dead and Jesus Christ who is the head of the church is alive and still feeding people today . So if something HWA said is not in unity with the word of God then you must throw it out the windo , hold on to the Good and destroy what is in error .

[William Cutting]

Mystery of the Ages
"Now another surprise for most readers. Here is another bit of the missing dimension in knowledge, actually revealed in the Bible, but unrecognized by religion, by science and by higher education.
From verse 2 of Genesis 1 on, the remainder of this first chapter of the Bible is not describing the original creation of the earth. But it is describing a renewing of the face of the earth, after it had become waste and empty as a result of the sin of the angels.
What is described from verse 2 on, in the supposed creation chapter of the Bible, did occur, according to the Bible, approximately 6,000 years ago. But that could have been millions or trillions of years after the actual creation of the earth described in verse 1! " Herbert W Armstrong

This is a False Doctrine . It goes directly against the Word of God .
Exodus 20 :8“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
11For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.
The 4th commandment itself shows that God created , he Made it (Strongs Hebrew 6213) he was not renewing it ! Each Day He created ...
Day two -God made(6213) the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so
Day four - 16God made(6213) the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made(6213) the stars also.
God set (5414. nathan) them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth

The very Law of God says that He created all that is in the heavens above on the fourth day . He created the Sun and the Moon and the stars on the fourth day , not some time before this . This is more important to understand now than any time in history ! Daniel 7 the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and ANOTHER shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak GREAT WORDS AGAINST THE MOST HIGH , and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change TIMES and LAWS : and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time

The world today raises up science over God , it talks in millions and trillions of years and promotes evolution as fact , these things will be the death of people in the end . There is deception in the end that goes back to the time before the flood . It all comes back around , as Christ said it will be as the days of Noah when he returns . So do you believe God or Herbert W Armstrong ? If you believe Herbert then he is your God .

[martin]

HWA explains Genesis 1 very plainly. And goes into why this is not the original creation. Did you read the entire explanation?

According to the stars, the Universe is 14 billion years old.

There are two questions....

1) How old is the Universe

2) How old is mankind.

Most assume the answer is one and the same for both.

[martin]

William.....please provide an explanation of this verse

1Co 10:9  Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them {the OT Israelites} also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

[martin]

I find it interesting that you seem to automatically dismiss a teaching if HWA or the WWCoG taught it.

Yet you accept the teaching of a false God from a false apostle and false prophet, Ronald Weinland.

(ie Christ is a created being).

Amazing!

[William Cutting]

I don't listen to or follow False prophet Ron Weinland . I think I've made that abundantly clear .

Jesus Chirst is the son of God . Matthew 16: 15 He said to them, But whom say you that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father which is in heaven"
Jesus Christ was a man that had a birth , he came out of the womb like everyone else , He was a baby and grew up into a boy and then into a man . He was not flesh and blood before this . He lived and had all the experience that made him what he is . He is the word of God made flesh , the word of God is not a separate spirit from the Father . The word comes from the mind and out of the mouth . The Word of God came to the prophets and those in the old testament , the mind of the Father expressing His Will . The Father put His Holy Spirit in Mary and she had a Son Jesus who was a man made of flesh and blood and filled with the spirit of God . In being filled with the spirit of God Jesus Christ Knew perfectly everything before His physical existance . Christ also said if you have seen me you have seen the Father , He was not taking about his flesh and blood but everything He did and said was The Will of the Father.

The stars told you they are 14 billion years old ?

[martin]

Were you always Unitarian? Or did you get this from Ronald Weinland?

Re the stars. The measured distance for some stars is around 14 billion light years out.

Since the light from them has reached earth. Then the earth is at least 14 billion years old (along with everything else).

So this begs the question, is the Earth 6000 years old or older? The question of mankind's age is a separate issue.

[martin]

Also, how could the Israelites have tempted Christ, if Christ did not exist at the time?

Explain Genesis 1, you have one God Being talking to another God Being. Why would God talk to Himself. It's nonsense.

Ron explains it as being "prophetic". This is Ron's standard excuse. Ron's excuse is nonsense.

[martin]

Here is another question....

How is it, that it was NOT a sin to worship Christ the "man"? Christ was NOT a God Being yet....(that is, according to a Unitarian).

[William Cutting]

There is nothing I can say to you to explain any better . You believe God is two spirits one is the Father and the other is called the word .

The stars are not 14 billion years old , that is a teaching of this world that your mind has been conformed to . You have no proof whatsoever that ,that is true but have put faith in other men to tell you what's what about the heavens above . This is exactly what I am talking about when it comes to deception in the end . You are proving my original point . The Sun moon and stars are Lights in the heavens above , the constellations do not change they have been the same for thousands of years . Everything people believe today about the heavens above has been spoon fed to them over a generation , no one has proven any of it . If they tell you aliens exsist you will believe that too . If they tell you aliens put life here , you might have a struggle ahead of you ?

Do you see the signs of the times , the great signs and wonders ? Do you understand what they are ? These things are much more subtle than you think .

[William Cutting]

Here's a question , would they really need to talk to each other ?

[martin]

They both have mouths, so that they talk to each other with their mouths is no mystery.

Do they need to? I have no idea. Probably not.

Are you a flat earther as well? You don't believe the Sun and moon are spherical physical objects?

The measured speed of light is a scientific fact. This is used to determine some facts about the universe.

Using basic trig, one can compute the distance of objects in the sky.

After that, it is a simple task to figure out how long light traveled from that object.

So, if a star is 14 billion light years away (not all stars), then the light from that star took billions of years to reach the earth, and thus the earth is billions of years old along with the rest of the universe.

[martin]

I am not asking you to convince me or anybody else....

But there are many, many explicit statements in the NT, stating Christ's pre-existance.

You avoid answering them for whatever reason. I am not trying to harass you, but to find out what your explanations are for various scriptures.

[martin]

How about the one I asked....

Why is it, it is not a sin, to worship a man? (specifically Jesus Christ).

[martin]

Writers of all kinds use metaphorical language.

When a writer says it "raining cats and dogs", is understood that this is not literal.

The bible uses metaphors as well....Jesus is the Lamb of God.....Is Jesus REALLY a lamb, well, of course not.

If you're going to believe the Sun and Moon are disks, then this is unfortunate. We have had astronauts on the moon.

If this is true, then Jesus really is a lamb, as well as piece of bread, as well as a stick, and it becomes absurd.

Even in modern-speak, we use the phrase "sun rise" and "sun set"....is the sun rising? is the sun setting? No.

[William Cutting]

I will say the deception in the time we live in has a lot to do with "space" and I will leave it at that . Like I said people will have to experience what comes (hour of testing)

God the Father said he is My Son - Matthew 3:17

Jesus Christ said he is the son Matthew 16:15-17

Peter said he is the son Matthew 16:16

Paul said he is the son Galations 2:20

Are you calling the Father and Jesus liars ? You just don't believe God had a son , you don't understand it . Did The father say this is me in whom I am well pleased ? No , that would be Silly . If you don't believe the father or the son , what can I do for you? The son of God can be worshipped , he was in complete unity with His Father he was without sin .

[martin]

Jesus incarnated Himself into a physical body. That is how he became the Son of God.

The only being a person can worship is God. That is why you could worship Jesus.

[William Cutting]

That is not in the bible. That is the gospel according to Martin .

Matthew 1: 20 for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Mark 1:1The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God

Luke 1:35And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Ghost shall come on you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.

John 1:No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

The Holy spirit is the spirit of the Father , He gives His Spirit to those that obey him . Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

Jesus was born of the spirit of God . To be in the bosom of the Father is to Come out from Him . Jesus Christ came out from the one true God .

[martin]

There are some amusing clips on YouTube.

A Flat-earther will execute some experiment to proof that the earth is flat....then they end up with results proving that the earth is a sphere......so you have the Flat-Earther himself proving his theory is wrong.

No matter how much evidence is presented, they still believe in the FE theory. It's rather unfortunate.

[martin]

There are more explicit verses discussing Jesus' pre-existence...but I found these interesting.

(Joh 1:15 YLT)  John doth testify concerning him, and hath cried, saying, 'This was he of whom I said, He who after me is coming, hath come before me, for he was before me;'

(Joh 1:15 BBE)  John gave witness about him, crying, This is he of whom I said, He who is coming after me is put over me because he was in existence before me.

(Joh 1:26 YLT)  John answered them, saying, 'I baptize with water, but in midst of you he hath stood whom ye have not known, this one it is who is coming after me, who hath been before me,

I know that Ron comes up with amazing garbage, he would explain it this way, that Jesus was in the mind of God...or something to that effect.

[William Cutting]

Martin , what is your connection to the WWCoG? Were you a member ? are you a member of a group that came from it ?

[martin]

I was a member of the WWCoG, I am not attending anywhere at the moment.

[William Cutting]

What are some of your thoughts on why the worldwide church fell apart , i gather from your posts it's due to people not staying faithful to HWA? Am I right in this assessment ?

Have you witnessed in your travels through YouTube land , the Internet and other communication a growing number of people from traditional Christianity starting to keep the Sabbath and the Holy Days ? I have seen many , some who have had a connection to the church of God and many who have had no connection at all.

[martin]

Why did the WWCoG fall apart?

Mr TKatch Sr started to slowly throw out all the teachings. This led to people leaving as they didn't accept this.  Some did, many didn't and left to form separate groups.

[William Cutting]

Are you aware that many people over the last ten years or so are coming to the knowledge of the Sabbath day and God's Holy days who have never had any connection to the WWCog ? Where do you believe this is all coming from ?

[martin]

I have not heard that before....I am  not aware of it.

It would be interesting to see.

[William Cutting]

Understanding Varies throughout the many different groups , I do not follow or promote any of them , here are just a few to see what I am talking about , on YouTube

Unlearn the lies

Now you see tv

Parable of the vineyard

Rob Skiba

New 2 Torah

Philia ministries

This is just a handful , but there are many more . Again , the understanding differs with many of these groups but take a look and you will see , God is calling people to understand Christ did not come to abolish the Law or the prophets .

[Mike (DDTFA)]

Herbert Armstrong did not invent sabbatarianism.

[martin]

John 8:58-59: "‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.”

Ronald the false prophet Weinland would say the mind of Christ was in God's brain or something to that effect...But the Jews perfectly understood what Christ was saying, he was saying that the God that spoke to Abraham was himself. Not some metaphysical nonsense.

Jesus divested Himself of His Glory to become a man, that is how he became a Son of God.

In order to pay for the sins of all mankind, the Being sacrificed must equal the value of all mankind.

The only Being that would fit this, is the Creator of Mankind.

You know, the bible actually talks about a man sacrificing himself for another man, this could actually be done, but only FOR ONE OTHER INDIVIDUAL...as the price payed is equal to the price required. How can Unitarians not grasp this simple concept? It's "economics" 101.

[martin]

God means what He says and says what He means...

(Joh 17:5 KJV)  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

I don't know why Unitarians have to explain away this simple verse...it's as plain as it can be.

Yeah, I know the explanation, the mind of Christ was in the Father, and that's what this verse means.

In that case, Jesus is completely confused about pronouns, if the previous statement is true, then Jesus should have used "it" not "I".

[Dean]

Ron concocted his 'unitarian' gibberish as a litmus test to see who would blindly follow him into a ditch no matter what in spite of any study of scripture.

[martin]

I agree, 1000%

[Mike (DDTFA)]

2005 was a busy year for Ron.  In August of 2005 he had a heart attack.  In October he rolled out his new origin-of-Christ doctrine.  In December of 2005 he declared that he was one of the Two Witnesses after hinting at it in November.

[William Cutting]

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Do all the followers of Christ up until today also exsist before the creation ? Or did He foreknow the above would come to pass as part of His plan ?

It was in The Father's mind from the beginning that His son would be the pinnacle of His plan , The Alpha and Omega , the beginning and end .

Did the spirit in Christ exsist before Abraham , yes of course it did , it is the spirit of the Father . Jesus didnt walk around preaching he was God and he divested himself of Glory at all ! He did not claim to be the father not once ! The Glory being spoken of that Christ had with the Father before the world , was The Father's plan being fulfilled . What the Father Foreknew was now coming to pass in the course of time .

A father and a son are not the same person , a son comes out from a Father . That is Life 101 !

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All power is GIVEN to me in heaven and in earth. Who gave it to him ! The Father .
No man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

For since by MAN came death, by MAN came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive

[martin]

WC "The son of God can be worshipped , he was in complete unity with His Father  he was without sin ."

When you prosecute the truth, it's like a brick wall. When you prosecute lies, it falls apart very quickly.

You say we can worship Jesus, because he was in complete unity with God and without sin.

The righteous angels are in complete unity with God and without sin.

According to your theory, the holy angels can be worshiped.

When a baby is born, it is without sin. It has committed no sins yet.

According to your theory, babies can be worshiped.

(Like the magi worshiped the infant Jesus).

The reason you can worship Jesus is NOT because he had no sin, it is because he was God in the flesh.

(Jesus, of course, had no sin)

[William Cutting]

God was in his flesh , this is why he said "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."

The Father in Jesus does the Works . Jesus was born full of the spirt of God the Father . The Holy spirit is God , God is spirit and God is Holy .

The Word (Logos) shows this completely -3056 lógos (from 3004 / – A WORD, BEING THE EXPRESSION OF A THOUGHT
from legó
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In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word is God's spirit it is His mind , when Words come out of the mouth it is the expression of the mind . The Word was made flesh , the mind of God is what created everything , The Father spoke it into existance and it was so . The Word of God is not a separate being but it is His spirit and mind and what comes out of His Mouth . When Jesus was born the Word Became Flesh . Jesus was a Man of Flesh and Blood who was born of The Spirit of God and was Filled with the spirit of God , he was tested by Satan , he was Killed and resurrected . Before His birth , the word came to the prophets , who spoke of his coming . Jesus was in the mind of the Father before the world was created , Jesus was His Purpose for the creation . He is the First Born in the Kingdom of God , All will be restored through this process in their own time , sooner or later . Jesus is our example in all things , We also can have the spirit of God dwell in us in order to overcome the world and enter the Kingdom of God .
" 6Having yet therefore one son, his well beloved, he sent him also last to them, saying, They will reverence my son. 7But those farmers said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be our's. 8And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard. 9What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the farmers, and will give the vineyard to others."

[William Cutting]

25Then said they to him, Who are you? And Jesus said to them, Even the same that I said to you from the beginning. 26I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27They understood not that he spoke to them of the Father

[William Cutting]

HWA saw things Physical with regards to prophecy . He taught that America is Manasseh and Great Britain was Ephraim he also taught that those who practice Judaism is the tribe of Judah . The prophecy in the bible is not about America being destroyed along with great Britain in a nuclear war . The prophecy is about Christianity being destroyed because of idolatry , it is a falling away in the end . The falling away is not through a physical war but a spiritual war that in the end will show where everyone stands . Judah is not those following Judaism in bible prophecy . The prophecy of Judah is about those following Christ

Gen 49 :11Binding his foal to the vine, and his ass's colt to the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes
John 15:1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Gen 49:10The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and to him shall the gathering of the people be.
This happened at Christ's First coming . The gathering of the people are to Him , Not to Judaism . It is the followers of Christ who have The Law and it is the Followers of Christ who have the scepter , they rule with Him .

Genesis 49:8 Judah, you are he whom your brothers shall praise: your hand shall be in the neck of your enemies; your father's children shall bow down before you.
The world wide church has folllowed Judaism into error , they follow a Jewish calendar made by rabbis who deny Christ . You ever notice the flag of the state of Israel ? That is an occult (hidden) symbol that goes back a long way , it is "Not a star of David" ! It is a triangle pointing up and a triangle pointing down , it has six points six triangles and six sides in the middle . It is the symbol of the beast in plain sight and at this point most people do not have the slightest idea . God gave His calendar in the sky to show His times , until people understand that , they will follow Rabbis who deny Christ . And here is what God Says : "Isaiah 1:14 14Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals I hate with all my being. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them.

True Judah has the Law which include the times . True Judah Knows Prophecy , what is coming .
Gen 49:12His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk. Wine / prophecy Milk / doctrine
Isaiah 55:1 1"Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.
Why do you spend money for that which is not bread? and your labor for that which satisfies not? listen diligently to me, and eat you that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
Why do people spend money for lies ?
Rev 13:16 And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads And that no man might BUY or SELL, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Exodus 13:16 16And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty Hand


Psalm 144:7Send your hand from above; rid me, and deliver me out of great waters, from the hand of strange children;
8Whose mouth speaks vanity, and their right hand is a RIGHT HAND of falsehood.


Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

[martin]

WC " The Word of God is not a separate being but it is His spirit and mind and what comes out of His Mouth ."

If your theory is correct, how is it that you know how to use the correct pronoun when referring to "it" but God apparently does not?

God NEVER refers to The Word as an "it". Perhaps God does not know how to distinguish between "it", "he" and "she"?

Jesus NEVER refers to "it" as "it", he understands the difference between an "it" and a "he" and a "she".

Jesus always refers to "it" as "I", or when talking about both of themselves, he says "we". NEVER as "it".

YOU USE "IT" WHEN REFERRING TO "IT"!   That is amazing, you understand the correct pronoun to use but God Himself does not, Jesus does not! Maybe you wouldn't mind explaining this problem to them?

[martin]

Ronald Weinland would welcome you with open arms....

You believe the same heresy he does!

Apparently this false prophet understands the true nature of the true God!

[martin]

Melchizedek, is a priest in the OT, that sacrifices to God and pays tribute to God....

Even WC, finds it nonsensical that Melchizedek and God the Father are one and the same...

It would be nonsense that God the Father is His own priest that pays tribute to Himself.

So, Melchizedek is an ancestor or relative of Noah.....funny how the bible completely forgets to explain how he survived through the flood.

[martin]

The Hebrew meaning of Melchizedek is "Prince of Peace" and "King of Salem."  (Here, Salem is simply a reference to Jerusalem.

Hmmm, this is the exact same title that is used in reference to Jesus Christ. I wonder why?

[martin]

I look forward to the day that WC sits down with God and explains the rules of grammar to Him.

That will be an interesting conversation.

[William Cutting]

Noah had his wife on the ark along with His three sons and their wives . Noah was 600 years old when the flood came , he lived 350 years after the flood .

Shem was one hundred years old, and begot Arphaxad two years after the flood. After he begot Arphaxad, Shem lived five hundred years, and begot sons and daughters.

Noah knew Abraham . Shem also Knew Abraham and outlived him. Abraham lived 175 years . Shem outlived Abraham 35 years , he lived to see Issac and Jacob as well .
melchizedek is not a person it is an office (order) It was Shem who met Abraham . Shem was priest in the order of Melchizedek at that time . He survived the flood because he was on the ark . Shem lived 502 years after the flood .

You believe Melchizedek was Jesus and Ron Weinland believes Melchizedek was the Father . You are both wrong .

[William Cutting]

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/1700.htm

https://biblehub.com/greek/5010.htm

[martin]

What are you trying to show with those two links?

[martin]

It appears that Noah was alive during Abraham's day.....as well as Shem.....I never knew that.

If they knew each other, I don't know....probably they did. But it's hard to say. The bible gives no other evidence other than their ages, so it is possible.,

[William Cutting]

From the birth of Arphaxad, two years after the flood, until the birth of Abram it was only 292 years. Noah lived 350 years after the flood and Shem 500 years. Abram’s life overlapped Noah’s life by 58 years.

Read Gen 11:10-26

Did they know each ? It's hard to say ?

Noah was Abraham’s great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great-grandfather . Yes , they knew each other .

The Links show that Melchizedek is a Priestly Line (order , office ) not a single person .

[martin]

It does not matter if Melchizedek is a person or an office, I do not have problems with either.

The OT description leans more to a person, the NT description leads more to an office.

It is likely that it is both a person and an office.

Shem does not qualify as a "Prince of Peace" or "King of Jerusalem".

While Jerusalem had many kings, this is "king" in its ultimate sense.

The only one to hold such official titles is Jesus Christ.

[martin]

Here's a question.....

Why was Jesus unmarried?

It was highly highly unusual to be unmarried at his age.

[William Cutting]

1 Corinthians 7:32-34
The unmarried man is concerned about the work of the Lord, how he can please the Lord. 33But the married man is concerned about the affairs of this world, how he can please his wife, 34and his interests are divided

Had to be about the Fathers work .

Luke 2
knew you not that I must be about my Father's business? 50And they understood not the saying which he spoke to them.

[martin]

Certainly true, but there's an even bigger reason.

[Dean]

If Jesus had biological children, their status may be a bit complicated.

You might have a Christological conundrum there...

[William Cutting]

Jesus Christ was in complete unity with his Father , it was not the plan for Christ to be born , grow up , get married and father children . I think that is pretty obvious wouldn't you say ?

Rather , Jesus Christ is the First born in the spiritual creation of The Kingdom of God .

For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

And that which you sow, you sow not that body that shall be, but bore grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain

It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.