On Apr 10, 2018, at 12:07 AM, anonymous FI <anonymousfa...@gmail.com
> On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 2:41 AM, Elliot Temple <cu...@curi.us
>> On Apr 9, 2018, at 11:22 PM, anonymous FI <anonymousfa...@gmail.com
>>> I'm afraid that by adopting Paths Forward [http://fallibleideas.com/paths-forward
], I would lose the freedom to spend my time the way I choose.
>> If you want to spend time on X instead of Y (where Y is a particular discussion, or otherwise) you can *say why you prefer it and expose that to criticism* (rather than doing Y).
> I'm afraid that I wouldn't be good enough at explaining my preferences to justify doing what I want. I'm afraid my feelings would lose in a fight to your arguments.
but u just have to say like "i have a preference i failed to explain, which isn't satisfied. so to move forward with this, it needs to get figured out and satisfied. your comments have not guided me to successfully do that so far. therefore, i will continue doing what i want for now."
>> If you would prefer to do Z instead of discuss whether your discussion policy is correct, you can say *that* and expose it to criticism.
> On the face of it, this makes sense. However, I'm afraid that comitting to PF would trap me in a kind of endless logical regress from which I can't escape, in which the answer is always to discuss more, whether or not I want to.
but if you don't want to, there is an unsolved problem there. in the face of that, make yourself with willpower is a bad idea. ppl are ineffective at discussions they don't want to have.
there are reasons discussion is good and can benefit you. to the extent you understand that, you may want to do it. to the extent you don't know it ... well you always have to act on your own understanding. hopefully your preferences don't make you stuck. i don't think they do. they seem to leave some scope for some discussion so you can improve your discussion preferences sometimes, get progress going more, etc.
>> If you don't want to expose anything at all to criticism, in any way, then Paths Forward isn't for you. If you want to discuss some things, sometimes –and you're interested in truth and error correction – then you can explain your reasoning, policies, etc.
> I do want to discuss some things. I don't have any written policies yet. I'm convinced they're a good idea but I'm afraid that if my policies match Paths Forward, then I'll be vulnerable to the threats I outlined above. As a small step for getting started, I've considered writing down my policies for how I currently make some decisions (such as when to leave for work in the morning), but which don't commit me to following Paths Forward.
writing down PF policies privately would be an intermediate step. you could self-police it. (you could also share your policy with a trusted friend.) you could get more comfortable with it before making it a public policy.
but mostly you need to learn methods to standing up to threats. to the extent you have concerns about these things – or esp think there is a current threat you're facing and deals with – you should ask for help with methods to stand up for yourself, express and defend your preferences more to your satisfaction, etc. to the extent ppl telling you to change stuff do not offer adequate help with such things, their advice is unsatisfactory and you can use parts that you see how to use but should not feel pressured to use it in full since it doesn't address all your problems.
>> In particular, you can explain *every concern you have*, e.g. that if you do Y then you won't have enough time for A, physical energy for B, mental energy for C.
> I'm not sure I can explain every concern I have. I worry that I wouldn't be able to put all my concerns into words. Or that even if I manage to do that, I might still be unhappy with the result of the discussion, and be unable to say why.
but you can say "i am unhappy with the result of the discussion, and i don't know how to say why in English. if you want me to make change X, you must tell me how to solve this problem to my satisfaction. it is entirely understandable if you don't know how to do that for me, but in that case i'll have to muddle along for now using bits and pieces of your help as i'm able to."
telling other people what actions they should take is hard b/c the adviser doesn't know all about the person's life and how to make action plans work in someone else's life with their motivations, understanding, etc. i primarily advise people about ideas and expect them to figure out how to apply it. (they often seem to come up with a quick naive interpretation of how to apply it, find that doesn't work, and then say i'm wrong. that is a dumb way to react. if an application is bad, consider other applications! don't assume i meant to imply the application you can see is bad. at least ask. and if you think the concepts i'm talking about are bad, explain why they are bad in general, and you can use the failed application as an example. but a failed application alone is not a general argument that other applications wouldn't work.)
>> Every concern of yours must be addressed or you don't have to – and shouldn't – do something. This includes both concerns with doing it, and concerns with not doing other things you'd be doing it instead of.
> What if I'm bad at putting my concerns into words?
then put into words "i have concerns i haven't put into words ... given that, any advice?"
> I also worry that it would be incredibly time consuming and/or stressful for me to discuss everything and put everything into words.
then put into words "i think it would take too long to discuss this"
> Life is simpler when I don't follow PF - I just do whatever I want. (I will postpone the question of whether the desires I end up acting upon are my own or those of the static memes whose puppet I am.)
how do you decide what you want? is *simple* what you want in life? as opposed to, say, less error and suffering?
>> Everything you want is either
>> 1) good
>> 2) there is a way to not want it
>> such things can be discussed, and you can only do things you are fully satisfied with (you see it as a win/win instead of a compromise).
> The part after the comma sounds great, but the part before the comma scares me. I fear that "such things can be discussed" means "such things *must* be discussed" with anyone who disagrees with me about them.
if you don't want to discuss something, you can say so. you can say you plan to do other things for now, and reevaluate later. or you can say some other kind of plan or priority system or whatever. see 1 and 2 above. if someone could tell you a mistake in your plan or priority system, that makes sense to you from your current perspective, that would be helpful and you would like it. if they can't, you could still find ways to use parts of their advice – this is common and shouldn't be pressuring cuz u just use what you can. again telling other ppl what to do is hard, so usually ppl just advise about some general points and u need to fill in the details of how to use it in your life (this is pretty far away from them controlling you – it's them telling you some concepts you can use to make better decisions yourself).
the broad theme is: be demanding. if ppl wanna suggest stuff to you, ask for it to be super helpful so it meets your standards. your problems come from thinking you'll have to accept ideas which aren't good enough.
>> if you don't want to discuss at all then you can't get answers about how something could be strictly better, from your perspective, than what you do now. but if you will discuss some then progress is possible, and the things most hindering progress (due to spending resources on consumption instead of investment in yourself) can be discussed if you are dissatisfied with the pace of your progress.
> I am willing to discuss a bit in order to make progress. I frequently find myself enjoying discussing. My fear is that adopting PF would *compell* me to discuss, even when I don't want to.
express problems as they come up – including meta problems, in very short ways, if you want – and demand ideas fully guide and help you to your satisfaction or you have zero pressure to use them.
i wrote this post in 14 minutes, including reading the text. no editing pass.