Not treating people as people

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Justin Mallone

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Jan 18, 2016, 11:07:21 AM1/18/16
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Reddit Thread: What is something creepy that society accepts as the norm?

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/41g64c/what_is_something_creepy_that_society_accepts_as/cz2asy9

> Posting every second of your child's life on social media. Maybe they don't want their potty training experience documented and viewable for all time

Not posting this stuff might involve thinking about even small children as autonomous moral beings who have preferences which should be respected, as opposed to treating them as props for display in second-handed social rituals.

Also on the subject of not treating people as autonomous moral beings:

http://bigstory.ap.org/urn:publicid:ap.org:306189053ce1409a8f7c887cae7fbf7a

> One woman who lived in Raqqa said that if a woman is considered to have violated the dress codes, the militants flog her husband, since he is seen as responsible for her. When her neighbor put out the garbage without being properly covered, she said, the woman's husband was whipped.

Now, of course, I don’t think it’d be a big improvement if they punished the woman. The whole situation is horrible. Still, I found it interesting that ISIS treats women with such contempt that they deny them the respect of even being the object of punishment for their behavior.

It reminded me somewhat (albeit in much much nastier form) of the punishment of parents for offenses committed by their children...

-JM

anonymous FI

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Jan 18, 2016, 12:00:00 PM1/18/16
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On Jan 18, 2016, at 11:07 AM, Justin Mallone just...@gmail.com [fallible-ideas] <fallibl...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> Also on the subject of not treating people as autonomous moral beings:
>
> http://bigstory.ap.org/urn:publicid:ap.org:306189053ce1409a8f7c887cae7fbf7a
>
>> One woman who lived in Raqqa said that if a woman is considered to have violated the dress codes, the militants flog her husband, since he is seen as responsible for her. When her neighbor put out the garbage without being properly covered, she said, the woman's husband was whipped.
>
> Now, of course, I don’t think it’d be a big improvement if they punished the woman. The whole situation is horrible. Still, I found it interesting that ISIS treats women with such contempt that they deny them the respect of even being the object of punishment for their behavior.
>
> It reminded me somewhat (albeit in much much nastier form) of the punishment of parents for offenses committed by their children…

do you have an example? are you talking about being punished socially in some way or something else?


Justin Mallone

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Jan 18, 2016, 12:42:16 PM1/18/16
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I mean punished by government.

Parents to be fined for bullying: http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2015/11/19/Town-ordinance-imposes-124-fines-on-parents-of-bullies/6551447963039/

Parents fined for truancy: http://www.bbc.com/news/education-33861985

Parents fined (possibly jailed?) for curfew violations: http://www.pennlive.com/living/index.ssf/2013/06/post_1.html

-JM

Lulie Tanett

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Jan 23, 2016, 7:44:17 PM1/23/16
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On 18 Jan 2016, at 08:07, Justin Mallone just...@gmail.com wrote:

> Also on the subject of not treating people as autonomous moral beings:
>
> http://bigstory.ap.org/urn:publicid:ap.org:306189053ce1409a8f7c887cae7fbf7a
>
>> One woman who lived in Raqqa said that if a woman is considered to have violated the dress codes, the militants flog her husband, since he is seen as responsible for her. When her neighbor put out the garbage without being properly covered, she said, the woman's husband was whipped.
>
> Now, of course, I don’t think it’d be a big improvement if they punished the woman. The whole situation is horrible. Still, I found it interesting that ISIS treats women with such contempt that they deny them the respect of even being the object of punishment for their behavior.
>
> It reminded me somewhat (albeit in much much nastier form) of the punishment of parents for offenses committed by their children...

What are ways parents get punished for their children's offences? Examples?

Is that worse than the child getting punished?

You say about the ISIS example that you don't think it'd be a "big" improvement if the woman were punished, implying it's better she get punished than her husband. Is the same true with parents taking the punishment in their children's stead?

--
Lulie Tanett

Lulie Tanett

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Jan 23, 2016, 7:50:04 PM1/23/16
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I see you partially answered here:


On 18 Jan 2016, at 09:42, Justin Mallone just...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Jan 18, 2016, at 11:59 AM, anonymous FI anonymousfa...@gmail.com wrote:

>> do you have an example? are you talking about being punished socially in some way or something else?
>
> I mean punished by government.
>
> Parents to be fined for bullying: http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2015/11/19/Town-ordinance-imposes-124-fines-on-parents-of-bullies/6551447963039/
>
> Parents fined for truancy: http://www.bbc.com/news/education-33861985
>
> Parents fined (possibly jailed?) for curfew violations: http://www.pennlive.com/living/index.ssf/2013/06/post_1.html


Children aren't allowed to legally work, so how do you expect fining to work?

You'd need to change both laws (child labour and who gets punished) to really fix this. In the meantime, while we do have laws against child labour, what would you have the law say about who to punish?

--
Lulie Tanett

Justin Mallone

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Jan 23, 2016, 9:14:26 PM1/23/16
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On Jan 23, 2016, at 7:50 PM, Lulie Tanett lu...@lulie.org [fallible-ideas] <fallibl...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> On 23 Jan 2016, at 16:44, Lulie Tanett lu...@lulie.org wrote:
>
>> On 18 Jan 2016, at 08:07, Justin Mallone just...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Also on the subject of not treating people as autonomous moral beings:
>>>
>>> http://bigstory.ap.org/urn:publicid:ap.org:306189053ce1409a8f7c887cae7fbf7a
>>>
>>>> One woman who lived in Raqqa said that if a woman is considered to have violated the dress codes, the militants flog her husband, since he is seen as responsible for her. When her neighbor put out the garbage without being properly covered, she said, the woman's husband was whipped.
>>>
>>> Now, of course, I don’t think it’d be a big improvement if they punished the woman. The whole situation is horrible. Still, I found it interesting that ISIS treats women with such contempt that they deny them the respect of even being the object of punishment for their behavior.
>>>
>>> It reminded me somewhat (albeit in much much nastier form) of the punishment of parents for offenses committed by their children...
>>
>> What are ways parents get punished for their children's offences? Examples?
>>
>> Is that worse than the child getting punished?
>>
>> You say about the ISIS example that you don't think it'd be a "big" improvement if the woman were punished, implying it's better she get punished than her husband.

I actually don’t know what I think about what’d be better.

By not big improvement I meant more like, I don’t think making that change would really help the situation.

I think ISIS “society” is so purely evil and immoral that it just needs to be destroyed, and so I don’t see the point of carefully considering which reforms to make to its deeply evil institutions, which ones would be better or worse for various things, etc. What would be the point?

>> Is the same true with parents taking the punishment in their children's stead?
>
> I see you partially answered here:
>
>
> On 18 Jan 2016, at 09:42, Justin Mallone just...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Jan 18, 2016, at 11:59 AM, anonymous FI anonymousfa...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>> do you have an example? are you talking about being punished socially in some way or something else?
>>
>> I mean punished by government.
>>
>> Parents to be fined for bullying: http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2015/11/19/Town-ordinance-imposes-124-fines-on-parents-of-bullies/6551447963039/
>>
>> Parents fined for truancy: http://www.bbc.com/news/education-33861985
>>
>> Parents fined (possibly jailed?) for curfew violations: http://www.pennlive.com/living/index.ssf/2013/06/post_1.html
>
> Children aren't allowed to legally work, so how do you expect fining to work?
>
> You'd need to change both laws (child labour and who gets punished) to really fix this. In the meantime, while we do have laws against child labour, what would you have the law say about who to punish?

I wasn’t proposing a specific reform to punish kids instead of parents.

I was noting a similarity in the way of treating people who are dehumanized, which involves punishing a third party.

A common idea is that you shouldn’t punish people for stuff they’re not responsible for.

And I was merely noting what I thought was a similarity in the parenting case and the ISIS case.

I don’t think curfew laws should exist. I don’t think truancy laws should exist. I don’t think compulsory education should exist.

And I think if compulsory education does exist, kids should get effective protection from harassment and violence at schools. And if a student is repeatedly like attacking another student or something, it should be possible to eject the aggressive student from the school. I think it’s ridiculous to force a bunch of kids to go some place by law, and then not protect them, then say it’s not your job to protect them, and then ineffectually punish the parents for your failure. I don’t think fining the parent really helps solve the issue much. Things like “students whose parents can’t get their kids to stop hurting other kids” are a well known issue. I don’t see how a $124 fine on the parent helps.

And if it’s not stuff that rises to the level of unwanted physical interactions, but just some kids being kinda mean to another kid purely with words, I don’t think the parents should be fined for that either. That’s a kind of social interaction policing I don’t think the government should get involved in.

I think there’s legitimate issues that can come up like, a kid damages someone’s car with his skateboard or something, who pays? Well in that case, can make sense to say it’s the parent, in the current societal context.

-JM
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