Where to begin

[Scott Jones]

Hi. I recently purchased a C85 Compact 2 group. I'm super excited.

It was listed as "working when last used, a couple years ago." I knew that could mean anything but decided to pull the trigger. Something is working but because the pump is leaking, I haven't left it on long enough to find out what.

I did bypass the water softener. The manual fill was stuck open, so I have decalcified that complex valve assembly. It looks like it will now function but I have not put it back in the machine.

My question is this: how far do I go with soaking and cleaning before I attempt to run it again? I see that some people do a complete disassembly and soak. Is this recommended? Or is it okay to address things one issue at a time?

Thanks!

Here are a couple of pics showing general condition...

[sam pratt]

I completely disassembled mine.

Cleaned to like new condition.

I DID NOT Clean heating element, DO NOT SOAK HEATING ELEMENT

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[sam pratt]

Message again before you reassemble, I have some tips for that

On Mon, Feb 7, 2022, 12:03 AM Scott Jones <scottj...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Alex]

Wow, nice find. I personally would do a complete disassembly and cleaning after identifying the current problem areas. You'll probably want to replace a bunch of o-rings and gaskets. If you do, take lots of pictures, I am interested to see more of that boiler setup. I have a gallery of a single group disassembly you may have seen.

[Scott Jones]

Thanks, all. That settles it: time to disassemble!

Alex, I was literally just looking at your gallery. I noticed that you disassembled the various solenoids. What was the motivation behind this? Cleaning, inspecting, both?

Thanks

[Alex Breinig]

I did want to inspect and clean all the internals. You never know what's going on in there without looking and I didn't want to drink from it until I knew. The project was to do a complete rebuild so that I knew the actual condition of the entire machine and wouldn't have any surprises. The machine is getting heavy use and to this day hasn't had a single problem! Later on I did wire in a switch to override the pump shut off in order to make descaling easier but that's just convenience.

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[Scott Jones]

I've got some parts soaking now. But also have some questions.

1. Does the pump get disassembled for cleaning/repair/new bearings? There was water coming out the top of this before.

2. What is the best way to clean the heating element. Looks kind of bad.

[sam pratt]

Heating element: you can immerse/soak the tank side of the element, but not the contact side.   the contacts are not waterproof/resistant.   soaking the heating element side in citric acid should get it really clean.

Pump;  rebuilding may be a lot of effort (parts or lack there of) you would have to research the right size of pump for a two group machine, I am not familiar with the rotary pumps.

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Sam Pratt
856-816-5147

[Scott Jones]

Everything is clean with one exception: the boiler. I'll attach some pics. It seems to be 60%clean, 30% grey and 10% black. Talkin bout the inside.

How clean should it be? Is it possible to soak the boiler(or the other parts) too much (Dezcal powder)? Any tips on removing the grey and black stuff?

I've got o-rings and such incoming from Sproparts. New pump, as well. Once the boiler is satisfactory and the parts have arrived, I'll be ready for assembly.

Anything esle I should be looking at while I'm at this stage?

Thanks

[sam pratt]

Powdered citric acid, you can buy on Amazon....it gets copper very clean... play around with the concentration....I have soaked the boiler for several days and rinsed and repeat until it was clean.

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[sam pratt]

I annealed (softens the copper) the flared tubing ends, the copper becomes hardened with all the heating cooling cycles and will sometimes leak at the flared ends upon reassembly....I also used Teflon tape on threads to ease disassembly next time.

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[Alex Breinig]

Teflon tape is a good idea. I see you bought a new pump! Save the old one and you can rebuild it :) .

As far as that grey and black stuff, I'm not sure what that is, can you scrape it off? You might try a stronger citric acid solution. I soaked my boiler overnight in a very strong solution.

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[Scott Jones]

The gray and black stuff: some comes off easily. Some is quite stubborn. I think it's from water that did not drain after the last time it was used. Then it sat there turning into something. 

I'm going to buy a toilet brush or something like that to get in there.

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[Alexander Machytka]

You can put sand inside and shake it manually or put it on a lathe or sth similar…

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[Alex Breinig]

I would try the easiest thing first, a strong citric acid soak overnight.

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[Scott Jones]

Sam, when you annealed the ends, did you use acetylene? Or can you get by with something like mapp gas? I might have some time in the next few days before the parts arrive.

[Scott Jones]

All of the black and gray stuff is gone. It was pretty stubborn. Mostly, more soaking with citric acid. A little scraping, as well.

Not sure if I'm going to go the annealing route. I did a couple of the flared ends. Heated to cherry red. Dipped in water. Pretty quick and easy. The problem is that there is a black residue left behind. Seems like a lot of work to clean that off the inside of the line. Maybe there's a better method to this? 

How bad is the issue of leaks if these are not annealed? 

Still waiting for parts to arrive.

My next project is to repair the drip tray. It's brittle, with several cracks. I've thought about making a mold for fiberglass. Or a quicker solution would be to wrap it in fibergalss or carbon fiber. But then the original form would be lost. Still pondering this one.

[sam pratt]

I only annealed the flared ends.   The black stuff is oxidation.   Steel wool to remove?   I didn't bother.  I repaired my drip tray with fiber glass from the underside.   Years ago I saw a photo of a tray fabricated out of stainless steel.   I suppose that would be pricey today.   Perhaps you could find someone to 3d print a replacement?  

Sounds like you are making progress....they are durable machines, I use mine several times a day, every day.

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[sam pratt]

Oh, leaks, it will leak upon reassembly, plan on it, don't rush and over torque a fitting.   Just disassemble, reorient the part, pipe, fitting and try again.   Once the parts seat properly they will not leak again until the next repair we'll down the road.   I use a single wrap of Teflon tape on threaded parts, not to stop leaks, but to aid in disassembly if ever needed.   No pipe dope or sealant anywhere.

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[sam pratt]

I found these, possibly they may aid during assembly?

  ESPLOSI_FAEMA_COMPACT_2_GR_A_021128.pdf

  Compact_S_uso_e_installazione.pdf

[sam pratt]

My c85, owned since 2010ish.

[Alex Breinig]

I don't think annealing is necessary unless you are directly addressing a problem. The only problem area I had in regards to pipes was the 2 large pipe connections to the group head, I had a very very slow leak that popped up after a few years so I added teflon tape there.

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[Scott Jones]

In the end I decided to anneal. I tested one piece by soaking the blackened end in citric acid overnight and it came out completely clean. That really swung the decision. Plus I'm home sick this week so I need stuff to do. I really wish that parts had arrived because this would have been the perfect week to button this thing up.

I've noticed that the manometer is not at zero on either side. Is this something that can be disassembled and cleaned?

[sam pratt]

I have not tried to repair a manometer, I replaced mine.

If it's in working condition, I believe you can disassemble and zero out the needle? (YouTube?)

I waited for parts to arrive too. 

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[Scott Jones]

This is what happens when you're stuck at home, sick and waiting for parts...

I figured that I may as well dismantle the manometer and try to fix it or at least see what is inside it. Sort of a last ditch effort before purchasing a replacement. Here are some pictures, in case anyone else is curious. There are these two curved arms that are hollow inside. Seems like they extend or contract slightly in response to the water pressure. The lines leading to each of these were some of the dirtiest of the bunch. Probably because there is no flow through. They dead end in this meter. I decided to soak the unit in an extremely strong mix of citric acid. I used a guitar string to work through each side to get all the bubbles out. On one side, I actually got the string to turn the corner and go through the curved arm. My thought was that if there was scale or other debris, it would not allow the curved arms to relax enough to set the needles to zero. I took pictures to compare before and after. I did notice that one of the clock work style springs seems damaged - but still has some function.

Again, this could be an exercise in futility. The acid could damage the various parts inside. But if it's not repairable then it needs to be replaced anyway.

[sam pratt]

I take everything apart, sometimes I can even repair what I break!

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[Scott Jones]

The meter seems to not fit right. I ordered the little white tub. Previously, there wasn't one in there. Maybe it doesn't get one? If i keep tightening it, I believe that the plastic tub will break. The tub is causing it to sit proud by about 3/32". I could trim the tub since it does not seem to be a part of the seal. Any advice on this?

[sam pratt]

I can't tell, do you have a gasket in between the flange and tub?

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[Scott Jones]

Yes. Tub, gasket, glass, chrome frame.

There is an o-ring in there, but the tub is negating it. I think I'll try to put it together without the tub. If that seems good, I'll trim the tub since it only seems to have an aesthetic purpose.

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[sam pratt]

Yes, the white plastic tub is to make the red ball easier to see.

It's been a long time but I think I had a hard time putting that back together too I replaced the white plastic part. I do not remember how I got it to fit together though.

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[Scott Jones]

Okay, finally back at it. I did end up sanding the face of the sight glass tub so that it is more shallow. That worked out well.

I coated the bottom of the drip tray with fiberglass. Needs a little more work.

I reassembled everything and slowly filled it up with the manual fill button. I have a couple of really small leaks, which I think will go away with gradual tightening. The heating element gasket is the worst offender. I did not do the recommended reducing from 3mm to 1mm. This is the area that leaks the most. I tightened it a little but I'm also wondering if the gasket will swell. I would have worked on it a little more but one of the braided water lines sprung a leak. Tomorrow, I'll replace that and try again. 

I still have not applied power since reassembly.

All in all, everything seems to be nearing the finish line. This is assuming that the electronics work. 

[Scott Jones]

I think this thing is wrapped up. Thanks to all for your knowledge and advice. 

Everything seems to be working fine. I'm suprised at how quickly this thing warms up. I haven't timed it yet, but seems close to 10 minutes. 

I've pulled six shots with different types of coffee. Now the science begins!

[Alex Breinig]

Well done! These machines are tanks.

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[sam pratt]

I used fiberglass to repair drip tray also.

The heating element gasket on mine was Teflon, different setup than yours.

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[Scott Jones]

Here's the setup. Everything is up and running. Starting to get shots dialed in. And most importantly, my wife is happy because it looks nice!