The Future of FACE

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Bernard Guest

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Jan 7, 2008, 4:11:19 AM1/7/08
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Hi All,
So Johan got us started with a very interesting aviation site...this will obviously be a good resource for scale info in the future. I would like to talk about the possibility of FACE competitions etc. 

The first question is do we bother? Would anyone travel to some central location for a competition? 

If the answer is yes then we have to decide how to proceed...what types of events would draw folks from near and far?? Do we want to copy the U.S. FAC? or do we want to set up our own events with our own emphasis? I personally am in favor of taking some of the more interesting FAC events and modifying them to suit our purposes.
Here are some of my ideas:

 I am interested in adding additional events that have a European flavor. For example we could run power and rubber scale events in the British tradition where flight characteristics rather than endurance is the key flying criteria: maybe we could mix this with an endurance component just to add to the challenge??. 

We could also add 1/10th scale, and 1/30th scale endurance events in the Czech tradition...this would allow for a wider range of subjects to be tackled (in 1/20th scale..if you want to build the Chambermaid or Cesssna Cr3 racers the come out at pistachio scale size....not very compelling for outdoor competition!! (at least to me) and if you want to build a northrop XB39 it comes out at 3 meters span....not very practical!!). Also 1/10th scale and 1/30th scale could replace arbitrary classes like Jumbo and Giant scale??

I am also interested in holding mass launch events....they are plain pure fun....the problem in the eyes of many folks however is the non-scaleness of many winning mass launch models. I agree....I would want our mass launch models to be normal scale models...how do we fix this issue and still keep the mass launch events fun and easy to run??

i would be interested to hear your views, ideas and input.



Bernard Guest
Assistant Professor of Geology
Dept. of Geo- and Environmental Sciences
Ludwig-Maximilain University
Luisen Str. 37, 80333 Munich
Fax: 0049 89 2180 6514
Tel.: 0049 89 2180 6713




Wout Moerman

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Jan 11, 2008, 10:05:50 AM1/11/08
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Bernard,
here are some answers on some of your questions:

''The first question is do we bother? Would anyone travel to some
central location for a competition?''
It depends.... For me Nijmegen is very central and the neighbouring
countries (Germany, Belgium) are also an option for me. If it is
further away it is getting difficult for me. This can change in a few
years time when my kids are a bit older.

''If the answer is yes then we have to decide how to proceed...what
types of events would draw folks from near and far?? Do we want to
copy the U.S. FAC? or do we want to set up our own events with our
own emphasis? I personally am in favor of taking some of the more
interesting FAC events and modifying them to suit our purposes.''

I totally agree. I think the FAC has some very nice events with an
emphasis on fun and flying, while in Europe the emphasis is more on
building barely flying super scale models. But I would like to see
events in which the european heritage fits in, that's why I very much
like the dime/kit scale concept in which a 20" wingspan is used and
enlargement of smaller models is allowed. it allows us to use models
and plans from Keilkraft, Veron, Frog. Trouble is that on the moment
there is only a limited amount of these plans available for free on
the internet. That is why I think it is a good idea to include the
vast choice of dime scale plans in this contest format.

''I am interested in adding additional events that have a European
flavor. For example we could run power and rubber scale events in
the
British tradition where flight characteristics rather than endurance
is the key flying criteria: maybe we could mix this with an
endurance
component just to add to the challenge??.''

I believe that in FAI and BMFA peanut and pistachio there is only
judging of endurence and not of flight realism? I haven't yet competed
in these classes so I must check the rule book on this. If so, if we
just add 1 event in which larger scale models compete on endurance I
think we have a good mix. Just use a good set of rules to define what
a scale model is, without needing super building skills from the
builder. And I would really love to see a mass launch format for this.

So, in short, I think adding one contest format is a nice start. A
kind of "20 inch dime / kit / simple scale mass launch contest". I
hope a contest like this can be held at the International Indoor Fly
In 2009 in Nijmegen. The organisation was lacking time to include it
in this years IIFI, but they are very much open to these ideas. We
really need a scale contest format in which beginners can be
reasonably competative. This can encourage newcomers to start building
scale models.

Wout Moerman

Johan

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Jan 12, 2008, 7:26:53 PM1/12/08
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Bernard and fellow FAC-E:ers,
I've looked at the FAC-rules (2003 edition) and as a whole they seem
very functional. I don't understand the reasoning behind some parts,
but that might become clear when I've had time to look at them more
closely.

I think it would be a good idea to start these events by copying the
U.S. rules and ideas, try that a few years and then perhaps modify
them if needed to suit European builders/fliers.

Likewise I think it best to avoid having too many classes during the
first few years. Even though there might be interest in many different
non-U.S. FAC classes, I think most of us would be happy to get things
going as quickly as possible with the minimum of fuss even if our
personal favourite class wasn't among those included.

As I see it, it would be possible for models that fit into the the
various regional scale classes to squeeze into the FAC-format even
though they perhaps wouldn't be "optimized" for this type of
competition. That should make it possible for most of the European
scale builders to join in on the fun. Likewise, I think most of us
could settle down with our sticks and glue and build something FAC:ish
in time for a meeting.

The charm of having a FAC-E competition would be to bring as many
builders/fliers as possible together to have a bit of fun with people
we otherwise would never get a chance to meet. I think that prospect
would make any of us willing to spend some time building.

Don't know if these few mind doodles will do much to further the
discussion, but I for one will do my best to join in, even if the FAC-
E would take place in those far off, scary places mentioned by
Wout ;-)

Cheers,
Johan

On 7 Jan, 10:11, Bernard Guest <b.gu...@iaag.geo.uni-muenchen.de>
wrote:
> b.gu...@iaag.geo.uni-muenchen.de

b.g...@iaag.geo.uni-muenchen.de

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Jan 13, 2008, 1:15:33 AM1/13/08
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Hi All,
In response to Johan's comments:

I more or less agree with you Johan, and would be happy to folow the FAC
format with no changes (as I did while living in California) but as far as
I can tell from discusions with people and from the online comments and
discussions that I have read, there are some (maybe many??) who do not
like the FAC format and even think it "Hurts or harms (I forget the exact
wording) Scale modelling". I have heard from at least two very good and
well know European scale modellers, for example, that the rather relaxed
scale fidelity rule for the FAC mass launch events is "awful" and that
this allows some very non-scale model to compete etc etc etc... So
although I do not really follow the "harms scale modelling" argument I do
wish to be open minded towards making the rules suit local sensibilities
and interests, and it is true that some FAC mass launch models are not
very scale (they are built and modified to maximize flight times). For
your amusement: Lubomir Koutney says "they don't use enough stringers"
whenever I mention the letters FAC. Anyway this is why I want to have
this discussion....so thanks for chiming in.

Regarding events: I also think that the FAC events pretty much cover
everything, although with an American flavor to some extent (Thompson
trophy and Greve race etc.) and, of course, an endurance mindset . On this
I would be happy to add events that have a European flavour (even though I
am in love with those 1930s era Thompson trophy racers e.g. GeeBees,
Folkerts SK seres, Cessna CR 3, Wittman Bonzo etc. etc.). I got the idea
of adding things like Schneider trophy and Coupe Deutsch because I was
told that Europen modellers do not know these aircraft (Thompson racers
etc.) and would not find them appealing (hard to believe for me, but then
I am not a local yet so what do I know). Also, I find Wout's ideas and
input on the kit scale end appealing (if only because we would have a near
infinite variety of subjects to work with). Lastly, when I asked Lubos
about 1/20th scale he told me that they chose this because early on when
they used wingspan limited classes as in the FAC their senses were
offended by the presence of a SE5a that dwarfed a Spitfire (or at least
was the same size) in the same class on the static table.

So what about Location??? Well I guess the best place would be one where
we could easily organize an outdoor gathering. This means the locals would
have to be willing, the site would have to be appropriate, and folks would
have to be willing to get in the car or plane and travel.
I settled on Open scale 2008 for the first gathering because it covers the
first two issues (willing locals and appropriate site fairly well) and in
the greater Europe sense is central. Old Warden would have been more to
my liking since I am British by birth and I have always dreamed of flying
there, but I do not really know the British scene (would the locals be
willing??) and England is not central.

So anyway thanks for pushing the discussion along...I look forward to
reading more on this topic....have to start thinking about what to do
after Open Scale 2008.

Bernard

Wout Moerman

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Jan 14, 2008, 8:49:51 AM1/14/08
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Bernard wrote:
"So although I do not really follow the "harms scale modelling"
argument I do
wish to be open minded towards making the rules suit local
sensibilities
and interests, and it is true that some FAC mass launch models are
not
very scale (they are built and modified to maximize flight times)"

I agree to this and I think there is room for contests for "real
scale" flying models AND for FACE scale flying models, I don't intend
to ban either one of them. It would be nice to have the choice though.
On this moment you have to be a super builder if you want to compete
in flying scale in Europe. This is not very encouraging for beginners.
And it is not always fun for guys like me. So I like to see one (or
more) classes in which the emphasis is on flying and fun.

Bernard Guest

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Jan 15, 2008, 9:50:16 AM1/15/08
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Well then folks I guess we should start thinking about next year....this years events at openscale are pretty much set in stone but the choice of events was pretty arbitrary. For next year (assuming that this year is a success) I would like to have input from the community...what would you like to see and what would get you to throw your stuff in the car and travel?? Electric and Co2?? Diesel?? 1/40th scale?? Embryo endurance?? Mass launches with tightened scale rules?? I think Wout likes dime scale/kit scale but what about the rest of you and your local communities??

Also what about location?? Do we do it in Czech again?? 

I would love to hear your opinions.

Bernard 
Bernard Guest
Assistant Professor of Geology
Dept. of Geo- and Environmental Sciences
Ludwig-Maximilians University
Luisen Str. 37, 80333 Munich
Fax: 0049 89 2180 6514
Tel.: 0049 89 2180 6713

Wout Moerman

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Jan 16, 2008, 4:49:19 AM1/16/08
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Did you really mean 'tightened' ? I was rather thinking 'lightened'
scale rules, compared to the usual European scale rules.

On 15 Jan, 15:50, Bernard Guest <b.gu...@iaag.geo.uni-muenchen.de>
wrote:

Bernard Guest

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Jan 16, 2008, 5:22:29 AM1/16/08
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Yes I mean tightened...but only in regard to the mass launch event....a complaint that I have heard several times is that some of the mass launch models are not scale enough....i.e. their resemblance to the full size ship is rather vague. For example slab sided spitfires and mr. smoothies etc. and ghostly see through ultra-lights with un-shrunk tissue and so on. Personally I am fine with this if everybody is having fun..but if it turns a lot of folks off then i say we should do something about it. So maybe we require correct fuselage x sections?? Maybe we establish a minimum wing loading to level the field a little?? This does not seem like it would be too tight does it??

Bernard

Wout Moerman

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Jan 16, 2008, 5:30:21 AM1/16/08
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A minimum wingloading sounds usefull, but I hate to check the wing
loading on models with an elliptical wing.....
And about the number of stringers, maybe we can give the builder 1
bonus point for each stringer running between the motor cowl and the
LE of the tailplane?

Bernard Guest

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Jan 16, 2008, 5:49:50 AM1/16/08
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Hmmm...well as you say checking these things is the issue....at current FAC mass launch events the CO (contest director...aka commmanding officer...or wing commander) runs a pre flight inspection of all ships... everyone lines up and he/she walks down the line and looks over each model to make sure they are minimally qualified and then the event is run. To me this is a set up that basically ensures that the rules will bend because who wants to be the guy who tells another guy that his model is not qualified because of this or that.... especially right out there in front of everyone...I know that I would not like to be the CO in that situation and that I would probably let the slab sided excuse for a spitfire slide with a sidelong glance and maybe a sarcastic jibe and then get on with the event. 

For me the beauty of FAC mass launch is that there is no heavy scale judging and no bonus points calculations etc... just fly and the last guy down wins, period!....this makes this a very easy format to organize and fly so I guess I am against anything that requires a lot of time and scrutiny....this rules out my wing loading idea (maybe we can simply have a minimum grams per cm of wingspan rule??) and also any bonus point system which would require careful timing of flights so that the bonus points could be factored into the flight times (basically negating the need for mass launch). 

i would say that instead of the current line em up at the flight line method (which is fun as long as your model qualifies)  we have an anonymous qualification exam...all models are lines up on the grass and the CO goes over all of them in the course of 5 minutes....and tags any that do not fit the bill as scale models as disqualified .....if we add the g/cm of wingspan rule the Co just takes his scale and a measuring tape and goes to work.

What do you think ??
Bernard

Dennis Kollarits

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Jan 16, 2008, 10:08:18 AM1/16/08
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Hi all,
I personally am not for the enforcement of a minimum weight rule,as
natural selection(weather,turbulence) will determine what is too
light,besides I don't think ultra light models would be all-dominating
in mass launch events.
One thing I do like is the use of scale cross sections,on the whole
I'd just keep mass launch as per the FAC rules and not overcomplicate
it.
A certain amount of scale bonus points could be alloted to scale
fidelity,amount of stringers,etc.,though this would make a mass launch
a judged event(not always a good thing IMO)
As far as locations for next year go,I'm ready to travel anywhere in
Europe as long as I know of it 3 months in advance.
I very much liked the looks of your flying site in Munich, Bernard, do
you think there'd be a chance to do an event there?
I remember you saying that it was a reserve of sorts-perhaps rubber
models only?

Regarding possible events for next year,I would like to see Co2/
electric scale back.
In 2006 a few of us tried to bring back Co2/electric-unfortunately
didn't manage the necessary 5 contestents in this class.
I like these type of models a lot and hope the class can make a
turnaround.
I hear that Mike Midkiff has some new power scale rules that he and
some others have been trying for a few years-perhaps these could be
used in lieu of the FAC ones which are too duration oriented for my
taste with lipos,etc. beeing in common use these days-making maxes
much easier.
I'd rather go for realism in flight coupled with a certain amount of
minimum flight time(1min. perhaps?)
What else I'd like to see:Scale(Diesel)
I have no experience in this class yet(but love the way they fly),so
far I have purchased an original Mills .75 and a czech MPJet diesel
and plan to build a scale bipe for one of them next winter.
If you haven't seen UK super scale diesel models,you have to check out
Mike Smith's site.
I wonder how many entries there would be for such an event-probably
not many?


Dennis


On 16 Jan, 11:49, Bernard Guest <b.gu...@iaag.geo.uni-muenchen.de>
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> b.gu...@iaag.geo.uni-muenchen.de

Bernard Guest

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Jan 17, 2008, 5:52:12 AM1/17/08
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Hi All,
So first in answer to Dennis' commnets...i agree on the mass launch events: let's keep it as per FAC rules but just be strict on the scale fidelity bit. This leads to the question: Do we want to add additional mass launches other than the standard FAC events? If so, what? I was thinking of a Schneider event (maybe two...one pre 1920s and one post 1920s). We could also try a Lympne or Kings cup or Coupe Deutsche...the list goe on and on...what would you guys like to see?

Bernard

Wout Moerman

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Jan 17, 2008, 7:56:45 AM1/17/08
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"Just be strict" makes sese to me, no additional rules, just follow
them as they are.
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