weights #2403
The Weights Mailing List
Re: Visible Abs?
by R. Day <rd...@midsouth.rr.com>
Re: Visible Abs?
by browncy <bro...@auburn.edu>
Re: Bulgarian training
by Chad Reilly <chadr...@home.com>
creatine and plump people?
by Guy Koch <ko...@ptsi.net>
Ripped Fuel?
by Brandenburg, Bill <Bill.Bra...@jhuapl.edu>
Re: Bulgarian training
by Eric Burkhardt <embu...@uci.edu>
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Subject: Re: Visible Abs?
From: "R. Day" <rd...@midsouth.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 23:13:51 -0700
> Do you have any suggestions on how I might be able to create visual
> abdominal muscles? Any certain excersizes, diet, machines? Please respond
> to this message, and I thank you for doing so.
>
well, it's about time I contributed something to this list again.
diet is the key here....the standard line is something like six meals a
day, making sure you get some protein, fats, and carbs at every meal.
personally, I like 40% protein, 30% carbs, and 30% fat. I'm actually
trying to finish up a dieting phase right now....been going at it all
summer long. started out at 234 and now I'm down to 205. skinfold
measurement taken at the ole supraillic crest was somewhere in the high
teens when I started. now it's down to 7mm:)
how did I do it?
like I said before, six meals a day. I started at 2600 calories a day for
two weeks, then i started zig-zagging back and forth between that 2600 and
around 2000 calories a day.
I'd usually just eat the lower amount on the days I didn't hit the weights.
Never did any kind of aerobic exercise, just weights. here's what I
usually ate everyday.
3 meal replacement powder shakes with anywhere from 1/2 tablespoon to 1
full tablespoon of flaxseed oil
2 tuna sandwiches on stone ground wheat bread(I usually toast the bread)
with some natural peanut butter.....trust me, it's not as bad as it
sounds;)
chicken fajitas(1-2 skinless chicken breasts, fried in strips in the ole
skillet and corn tortillas with a little salsa)
you'll notice that 5 of these meals are "portable" so I can pretty much
pack it all up and go all day without having to screw up my diet which is
important cuz I usually have to...sure people make fun of my " food pail"
but it's better than that feeling of my gut hangin over the lip of my
jeans;)
there's my six meals....of course, I wasn't as spartan as I should've
been...the weekends usually found me downing too much beer and hotwings,
but something like that only prolongs the diet, it doesn't derail
it...REMEMBER THAT!
as far as workouts went, I like to train with a three on, one off schedule,
hitting 2 bodyparts or so per workout, usually just one exercise per
bodypart for 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps.
kept my rest intervals to 60 sec or less no matter what. I went with the 6
days a week schedule just cuz I enjoy it, and it makes sense to me that the
more often I hit the gym during a diet, the more likely I am to jack up the
metabolism and burn some fat......I hope. I really don't have anything
scientific to back it up, it just works well for me. I tried Poliquin's
german body composition training at first, and I just lost too much muscle
and strength on it:(
oh yeah, I never do the same workout twice either...always rotating
different exercises out at each workout....trying to keep the body off
balance, and hopefully convincing it to keep my hard-earned muscle. once
again, don't really have anything scientific to back this theory up, it
just works for me and it seems to make sense at the end of the day.
now, as far as building up your abs, just go heavy like you would with any
other muscle. do some crunches with a dumbbell behind your head or under
your neck. 3 sets of 8-10 reps is what I usually do once a week. endless
sets of ab work with little or no resistance won't build your abs
up....always seems like doing bench presses with just the bar for hundreds
of reps to me.
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Subject: Re: Visible Abs?
From: browncy <bro...@auburn.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 23:14:11 -0700
Everyone has a six pack, the difference between people's abs that is
noticable is due to fat. Therefore, losing weight is equally as important
as building the abdominal muscles.
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Subject: Re: Bulgarian training
From: Chad Reilly <chadr...@home.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:08:31 -0700
> From: Piers Redmore <pred...@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 23:19:53 -0700
> Could there be some reason why olympic style weightlifters can train more
> frequently than other weight trainers?
Actually, I have given this quite a bit of study and thought, and
always thought it would make for a really neat paper. Comparing
weightlifters and powerlifters, there is a bit of a paradox.
Weightlifters as a group train a lot more frequently than do
powerlifters while they are in my opinion of comparable strength
levels. With our western bias of thinking everyone should have 48
hours rest between training bodybuilders we tend to single out
weightlifters training as being odd, but if we compare them to other
strength power athletes (i.e. throwers, sprinters, football players)
daily training (at least 5 days per week) is the norm. I think evidence
is beginning to emerge to explain some portion of the phenomenon but
perhaps not all of it.
> Perhaps the absence of concentric
> movements in the classical lifts places less stress on the body?
I'm pretty sure you meant to say eccentric not concentric and if so then
I agree. I have seen it referenced quite a few times that the
eccentric part of the lift is what causes most of the muscle damage.
Regardless even if it only resulted in half the muscle damage and/or
recovery time, dropping the weights after a lift (as weightlifters
very often due) rather than lowering them should make recovery easier
on a lift per lift basis than slowly lowering them to the ground would.
> Or would the body adapt to frequent training with any type of
> exercise?
I think this is a factor as well. Research suggests that adaptation
to heavy eccentric exercise is rapid. While heavy eccentric lifting
has been shown to increase muscle damage and soreness, training
heavy again, even while you are still sore, did not increase muscle
damage nor did it impede the repair process. Also experienced weight
trainers have been shown to get just as sore following heavy eccentric
training as beginners do but they appear to have much less muscle
damage.
> Or, could it be due to some differences in the types of people who take up
> Olymipc style lifting. Perhaps fast-twitch muscle fibers recover faster
> than slow-twitch muscle fibers. Since good olymipc lifters tend to have a
> higher percentage of fast twitch fibers than the general population,
> perhaps this means they can train more often. Does anyone out there know if
> there's a difference in recovery times between muscle fibre types?
I don't think this one hold much water. If I remember my exercise
science classes correctly, the slow twitch fibers generally recover
faster. Also in the world of sports, endurance athletes tend to
train the same muscle groups on consecutive days as well.
> Or, since olympic lifters have to maintain weight, they tend not to
> increase muscle mass. Perhaps training for hypertrophy requires more rest
> than training for strength.
Perhaps, but I doubt it. Anecdotally, bodybuilders sure do like their
rest days between body parts but there are plenty of massive guys from
other sports who train more frequently and weightlifters who are trying
to move to a higher weight class still train most every day. To my
knowledge, nobody has tested this experimentally.
> I think these are interesting questions. Does anyone have any ideas? Chad
> or Mel, or anyone else have any answers?
Another idea is speed of contraction. Recent research has shown that
you recover quicker from explosive, high speed exercise than you do
from slower, heavier exercise. I think this would explain a lot of the
paradox between weightlifters and powerlifters since weightlifters
spend a lot more time closer to the high speed end of the spectrum.
The hole in this and perhaps some of the above ideas is squats.
Weightlifters do squats a lot, they do them heavy they do the eccentric
part too. One could say that these squats make up only a small part
of the lift in a week and elite weightlifters will still probably do
more squats than would an elite powerlifter.
> > Here is where I think you hit the nail on the head Mel. I think the main
> > reason why more frequent intense training may not catch on in this country
> > is that people are afraid to commit to that kind of work. The notion of
> > HAVING to rest a day between workouts is very appealing to the average
> > trainee.
I'm not sure this is the best way to look at it. I don't think one
should be looking for "how much training they can endure" but rather "how
much training leads to the most improvement," which may be more or less.
There is little argument that Bulgarian lifters (and those who train
similarly) are far and away the best in the world. However, how many of
us were selected at a young age and trained like the Bulgarians are. To
a point I agree with what Incledon and Staley said about lower frequency
training being better for *particular lifters* who may not be able to
progress on high volume programs. I disagree with Staley's comments
about more experienced lifters not having to train technique so much, and
I think his ideas about using isolation type bodybuilding exercises in
weightlifters is exceptionally goofy, but I'm sure everyone knows that
already:).
> So you think that the reason that non-olympic lifters train less frequently
> than other types of trainees is psychological rather than physological?
> Could it be that there are different ways to gain strength, but olympic
> lifters choose high volume methods because they need to train technique as
> well as strength?
I think the O'lifters do need to spend a lot more time on technique and
this would explain the need for a lot of work in the classic lifts. It
still doesn't explain why weightlifters spend so much time on just a
plain old strength lift like squats, which doesn't directly improve
their competition lift technique. Personally, I've trained squats 2
times a week and as much as 8 times per week, and as far as pure strength
goes I can't say that I noticed any difference. So if I had my druthers
I'd prefer less pain if the gains the same.
If anyone is interested I have all the references for the research I
discussed.
SPEAKING OF REFERENCES, DID DELPHINE EVER FIND THE CITATION FOR THE
STUDY HE/SHE QUOTED WHICH FOUND SUCH AND SUCH PERCENT DECREASED
INJURIES IN ATHLETES WHO TRAINED WITH WEIGHTS? Or should I just
chalk this one up to 82.8 percent of all statistics being made up on
the spot.
cr
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Subject: creatine and plump people?
From: "Guy Koch" <ko...@ptsi.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:09:13 -0700
Hello to the list. I am new on here and have already found large amounts of
information that I can use in the future. I am 41 years old and at one time
was in pretty good shape. I broke my back 5 years ago and have really gone
down hill since. After several surgeries my back gives me no more problems.
They did however cut the large vein that runs down my left leg while doing
one of the surgeries and right before I bled to death they decide to clamp
it off instead of repair it, so my circulation has caused me much problems.
What I am getting at is I have gotten fat, and now I have decided to get
back (or try to get back) to where my body was 5 years ago. I have been
lifting for about a month, and riding bikes in between days. I do feel
better and can see some improvement in this old shell of mine. My question
(you probable think it is about time) is creatine good for fat folk like
myself. I would like to get those 20 inch arms of yesteryear back, but will
creatine make it harder to get rid of this 42 inch waist. I know that
proper diet, and hard work is the key to success, but I am no different
than any body else, I would like o find the fastest way. Any help on this
would be great. Thanks. Guy Koch
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Subject: Ripped Fuel?
From: "Brandenburg, Bill" <Bill.Bra...@jhuapl.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:09:40 -0700
Has anyone ever used Ripped Fuel by Twinlab...and if so can you tell me how
your results were...Thanks in advance
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Bulgarian training
From: "Eric Burkhardt" <embu...@uci.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:07:34 -0700
Piers Redmore wrote...
<<
Could there be some reason why olympic style weightlifters can train more
frequently than other weight trainers? Perhaps the absence of concentric
movements in the classical lifts places less stress on the body? Or would
the body adapt to frequent training with any type of exercise?
Or, could it be due to some differences in the types of people who take up
Olymipc style lifting. Perhaps fast-twitch muscle fibers recover faster
than slow-twitch muscle fibers. Since good olymipc lifters tend to have a
higher percentage of fast twitch fibers than the general population,
perhaps this means they can train more often. Does anyone out there know if
there's a difference in recovery times between muscle fibre types?
Or, since olympic lifters have to maintain weight, they tend not to
increase muscle mass. Perhaps training for hypertrophy requires more rest
than training for strength.
I think these are interesting questions. Does anyone have any ideas? Chad
or Mel, or anyone else have any answers?
>>
Eric....
> Here is where I think you hit the nail on the head Mel. I think the main
> reason why more frequent intense training may not catch on in this country
> is that people are afraid to commit to that kind of work. The notion of
> HAVING to rest a day between workouts is very appealing to the average
> trainee.
Piers...
<<
So you think that the reason that non-olympic lifters train less frequently
than other types of trainees is psychological rather than physological?
Could it be that there are different ways to gain strength, but olympic
lifters choose high volume methods because they need to train technique as
well as strength?
I don't have any answers, but I think this would be an interesting
discussion.
>>
Eric....
I think you make a lot of good points and raise some good questions. I
don't think OLers can train more frequently due to "absence of eccentric
(you said concentric) movement in the classical lifts". There is plenty of
eccentric muscle action in OL. Even in power clean/snatch eccentric action
occurs during the catch, besides I'm also squatting 6 days/wk and we all
know that 50% of a squat is eccentric.
I'm not aware that fiber type has any influence on recovery ability, but I
can't present any evidence that it doesn't. Maybe someone else can. I
think I read something about this on Fred Hatfield's web-site. I'm not
sold on it but that doesn't mean there isn't something to it. Obviously
there are strong arguments that fiber type make-up greatly influences
performance, however I have trained with many lifters on a 6d/wk program
who probably didn't have ideal fiber-type make up for OL and they survived
and thrived on this program.
The bottom line is I think that enhanced/more rapid recovery ability is an
adaptation that CAN be developed with more frequent training. I will be
the first to admit that it is tough psychologically and is toughest in the
beginning, but it's also tough to maintain it. Knowing you have to lift
heavy every day is very challenging mentally and is probably not for every
body. To tell you the truth, I'll happy when I'm not so involved
competitively so I don't have that burden of training every day.
I think your point above is also a good one regarding OL as a skill. Since
the S and C&J are highly skillful movements, they must be practiced a lot.
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