weights #2382
The Weights Mailing List
Re: Reply
by Six Foot Lioness <SixF...@earthlink.net>
re: "The MASTER Critic Siff" Or just plain GOD
by Brian Williams <winds...@earthlink.net>
Re: "The MASTER Critic Siff" Or just plain GOD
by <Mcs...@aol.com>
ASN's Maxabol?
by Arthur Schloth <sch...@ICD.Teradyne.COM>
Re: Delphene's Protein Bars
by Jan Baggerud Larsen Produktsjef 8366 <J...@rubicon.no>
Re: ELLIPTICAL TRAINERS
by Ronald Dobrin <rdo...@mindspring.com>
Re: Lasix Surgery
by MH_GTE <mar...@gte.net>
Re: Lasix Surgery?
by Rachel Louis <Rachel....@williams.edu>
Re: Lasix Surgery?
by Keith Hobman <kho...@sk.sympatico.ca>
Re: Lasix Surgery?
by Bernie Hayden <hay...@xkl.com>
Re: Lasix Surgery?
by Tony Lill <ajl...@ajlc.waterloo.on.ca>
Nutrition Seminar With CEUs
by Thomas Incledon <hps...@mediaone.net>
Sites?
by <JUMP...@aol.com>
Re: MTS - Cupid
by Six Foot Lioness <SixF...@earthlink.net>
Music......
by <SxCxOx...@aol.com>
Re: Radical New Chest Training Needed.
by Arthur Schloth <sch...@ICD.Teradyne.COM>
Re: Just getting started
by browncy <bro...@auburn.edu>
Re: "The MASTER Critic Siff" Or just plain GOD
by stef <se...@duke.edu>
LIFTER TARA
by <Mcs...@aol.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Reply
From: Six Foot Lioness <SixF...@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 05:52:56 -0700
"Mr. Uxo" <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<<
Are you for real? Very few natural people can keep their size and
get lean and cut. I'm talking completely natural never used drugs in
lifetime.
>>
It is possible, but one has to learn the own body perfectly and
"outsmart" it each time the body wants to adapt to the training and
the nutrition. And it takes time to build quality muscle that would
stay "forever". I have about 164 lbs of lean muscle mass (my weight
is now 182 lbs) and I have never in my life touched an anabolic
steroid, growth hormone, andros or other stuff that manipulate
hormones. I tried creatine 3 years ago, that's about it. I eat a lot,
I eat smart (for my body) and I supplement with vitamins, minerals
and omega 3/6/9 fatty acids. My discipline, focus and persistence is
100%. I get my sleep and actively work on reducing the daily stress
to the minimum possible.
I think that a lot of "natural" people make lots of excuses in the bb
drug issues, just to blame on something, maybe because they might
lack the discipline and persistence. To stay focused and motivated
over such a long period time, you really, really must want to achieve
your goal, and believe that you will.
Suzanna
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Suzanna McGee, Venice, California
http://home.earthlink.net/~sixftlion
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: re: "The MASTER Critic Siff" Or just plain GOD
From: "Brian Williams" <winds...@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:49:03 -0700
Yes, Mel writes critically about the fad writers. Note however that he
doesn't just post self aggrandizing "neener, neener, neener" type stuff,
but lists research references as well as articulating his points in what is
to me a clear fashion. I learn a lot more through chewing on an issue for
a while than I ever would simply accepting a statement as rote. As far as
getting gains from writers like Poliquin, Chek and so on goes, that doesn't
qualify a writer in my mind. Ten years ago when I started lifting again I
could have given anyone a "routine for the average guy" that would have
produced gains. Would I have known what I was doing? Marginally at best.
Back in the 70's and even eighties there were authorities in the coaching
world who espoused waiting till post-adolescence to start lifting to avoid
"pre-mature epiphyseal closure," which would ostensibly stunt the growth of
the youth involved. Big muscles would "bulk you up" and "make you slow."
Steroids didn't work. Even spouting what we now know to be myth, these
folks turned out good athletes. That does not make them inviolate and
unworthy of criticism.
Perhaps the main problem with the "guru's" of fitness - other than their
gross errors - is their lack of recognition of their past. Often a method
of training is claimed as being new and groundbreaking when it is merely a
re-hash of techniques that are 50 or more years old. It wasn't too long
ago that I saw a revolutionary new and original exercise being spewed about
by one of the muscle comics. The new idea? Wind sprints. Within the last
couple of years we have seen plyometrics being pushed as a new idea for
training. Many on this list are academics who are bothered deeply by such
blatant plagarizing. The other side of the issue is mis-application and
over-generalization of research results, when they are used at all.
Supplement companies are particularly guilty of this such as the
testosterone booster being marketed as such on the results of research on
post-menopausal women who were testosterone deficient.
Among other things, this list is a forum for discussion. We may argue till
we're blue in the face, but that drives people to learn and examine their
predilections. I learn a lot more from someone who calls B.S. on a
statement I make than someone who simply agrees with me. We all have
differing backgrounds and experience levels, and sharing the simple joy of
breaking through a pleateau or getting a new PR is something we can all
appreciate. If you have been on the list for any length of time you must
have noted that there is little response to or posting of "how can I get
HYOOG" guestions.
Weight training is a journey. Would you rather take a cab, or drive
yourself?
Regards,
Brian Williams
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: "The MASTER Critic Siff" Or just plain GOD
From: Mcs...@aol.com
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:51:05 -0700
On 7/17/00, Ray McCarthy<Raym...@aol.com> wrote:
<<
Mel, why have I never seen you write "HEY that sounds interesting that
might work"
>>
***Check through the archives of various listservs like this to see how
often I have referred to writers, coaches, lifters, scientists or athletes
such as Zatsiorsky, Verkhoshansky, Rigert, Medvedev, Basmajian, Knipp,
Drechsler, Zatopek, Baszanowski, Roman, Pearl, Simmons, Dyson, Matveyev,
Yessis, McDougall, Stone, Komi and Haekinnen. If you read my books, you
will notice many more folk like this whose work I quote, often because they
have been genuinely innovative and still not called themselves the "world's
greatest." Why do I quote them? Well, their material has succeeded in
producing the vast majority of the world's most successful athletes and
coaches!
<<
You call these guys "Masters" and Guru's but for some reason you come
across as seeming as you think you are the God of resistance training.
>>
***Unlike most of the Masters and Gurus who proclaim themselves openly and
vociferously by various titles such as the "world's best", the Fitness
Guru, the "World Greatest Strength Coach", and "The Master", I have never
ever called myself by any such presumptuous title. All that I have done is
to openly evaluate any incorrect or unsubstantiated content that any
self-proclaimed experts have proliferated as gospel. Do you really think
that their ideas are totally correct and beyond all criticism?
<<
Do us a favor write out a routine for us avarage guys. Instead of sitting
back and taking shots at what others have written. Write something I can do
and understand. Write me a routine for gaining size with limited fat
naturally. All these other guys can so can you with out delving into all
sorts of studies. Remember KISS keep it simple stupid.
>>
***First of all, ask yourself this question: "How many of those gurus share
as much information that I do regularly and openly for nothing?" How many
of them even bother to interact regularly with the 'average guys' on any
listservs, other than Staley (who doesn't call himself a guru)? You
respond to my sharing with you as if I offer nothing of any value to this
group. If that is so, well, then maybe I need to leave you to take over
and do a better job of one that I obviously am not doing to your
satisfaction.
FITNESS MARKETING 101
Maybe I should simply say to you like some others may: "Sure I will devise
such a program for you - my rates are $300 an hour and you must sign up for
a minimum of a month." Of course, I won't bother to look up any studies,
because they are a lot of academic nonsense anyway and they work only with
world champion athletes. Moreover, every hour that I spend looking for
references is costing me $300, so it would be really dumb of me to even
bother. After all, the average person doesn't know any better and I know
full well that any sufficiently demanding or challenging new program or
variation will produce results.
All that I will do is examine what you have been doing up till now then
draw up an innovative sounding program that avoids repeating exactly what
you have been doing in vain. I will inform you that you must follow this
program for 4-6 weeks and then you will have to come back to me to pay for
the next level of program, and so on and so forth.
Obviously I won't waste any time giving ideas away for nothing on Internet
listservs, because I will be selling endless permutations of an
encyclopaedia of exercises that I keep handy for all the clients who
believe all that I say. All the time, I will keep on calling myself "the
Greatest", because that is one of the earliest principles of propaganda and
marketing - say something often enough and loud enough and people will
begin to believe you! And I will soon be a very wealthy man!
Maybe I shall also be a very unhappy man, because I may know deep within
myself that, though I may have fooled most of the people most of the time,
I haven't really fooled myself, the real experts or the real God who
endowed me with all that I know and have.
BURN THE CRITICS
By the way, critiques of dubious work constitute far less than a quarter of
my contributions - you obviously are fixating on only one aspect of my
writing. It is exactly the same with most investigative journalists in any
newspaper or journal - despite their definite contributions to public
knowledge, if they happen to even slightly criticise someone's sacred cow,
then all those useful contributions are conveniently forgotten. Cows may
be sacred to some folk, but they may also be food to someone else.
At least, unlike several gurus who rudely and crudely attack many folk from
the safety of a rather one way website like Testosterone (or their own
newsletters or websites) and rarely publish any dissenting opinions, I
participate in truly interactive email discussions. Isn't that rather
noteworthy?
Dr Mel C Siff
Denver, USA
mcs...@aol.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: ASN's Maxabol?
From: Arthur Schloth <sch...@ICD.Teradyne.COM>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:58:24 -0700
Recently, a big stir at my gym has been around a supplement called
Maxabol. It is put out by a company call Advanced Sports Nutrition
(ASN).
So many people are using it, that it is tough to find a Bottle in
Boston.
>From the label, it seems to be essentially DHEA.
Have any of you used it?
How about ASN as a company?
I did a search on it and found links:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/asn/maxabol.html
After looking over the web pages, it looks like a BS
company and supplement. Basically a whole bunch of
splashy testimonials on how great it is.
However, the people who are using/ promoting it at the gym are
advanced competitive Bodybuilders.
What are your takes on this supplement and company?
thanks,
Art
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Delphene's Protein Bars
From: Jan Baggerud Larsen Produktsjef 8366 <J...@rubicon.no>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:59:23 -0700
> From: "J.K. Crawford" <jkcra...@musclemail.com>
> Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 07:42:07 -0700
>
> The body is able to take in around 40g of protein at one time
Actually it's closer to around 42 grams of protein at one time. According
to the studies my company has been conduction during the last 16 years this
seems to be the case. During this period Dr Scott Shafer and myself
ingested the following amounts of protein each meal, 6 times a day:
39 grams each meal, 6 times a day for 2 years.
40 grams each meal, 6 times a day for 2 years.
41 grams each meal, 6 times a day for 2 years.
42 grams each meal, 6 times a day for 2 years.
43 grams each meal, 6 times a day for 2 years.
44 grams each meal, 6 times a day for 2 years.
42 grams each meal, 6 times a day for 2 years.
41 grams each meal, 6 times a day for 2 years.
These preliminary data suggest that nitrogen retention vs nitrogen
excretion is highest at around 42.3 grams of protein per meal.
Some of our research can be found here:
http://laserdonut.tripod.com/cla2.htm
Jan Baggerud Larsen
Lutefisk Supplements Advance Pharmaceuticals Inc
Oslo, Norway
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: ELLIPTICAL TRAINERS
From: "Ronald Dobrin" <rdo...@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:59:48 -0700
Re: Dr. Siff, Aerobics
Thank you for your information on aerobics.
I have long believed that the aerobics craze is just about merchandising
and selling equipment. Further, gyms are able to process 25 or more
members at a time in much less space than the same number of people would
take working out separately.
Aerobics has become something of a mark of nobility for fanatics. If you
arrive at the gym and do 45 minutes of aerobics before you eat anything,
all your weight problems will be solved. Whatever happened to cutting
caloric intake?
ron
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Lasix Surgery
From: "MH_GTE" <mar...@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:00:25 -0700
I had Lasik surgery two years ago. I did not go to the gym at all for two
weeks. After that, I returned to my usual training. I did not discuss my
weight training with my doctor -- maybe I should have -- so I don't know if
I did the right thing or not. It did not occur to me at the time. Anyway, I
had no ill effects.
By the way, the Lasik surgery was one of the best gifts I have ever given
myself. I live in Santa Barbara now. My bedroom has a view of the ocean,
which I can see when I wake up. I could not even see what time it was, let
alone the wonderful ocean at sunrise, before I had this surgery. Insurance
companies may call Lasik "cosmetic surgery", but anyone who cannot see
without glasses knows better.
Good luck,
Maren Henle
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Lasix Surgery?
From: Rachel Louis <Rachel....@williams.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:00:47 -0700
I had Lasik surgery in January, in Montreal (it's a lot less expensive to
do in Canada). I was told not to wait at least a week before a heavy
workout - I think it had more to do with blood pressure than with
perspiration.
My husband and I both had pretty successful surgery, and I'm thrilled not
to have to deal with my glasses sliding down my sweaty nose any more.
However, it was certainly not perfect - my night vision still leaves
something to be desired, and I will probably end up getting new glasses for
that. I also still wake up several times a night with very dry eyes and
need to put drops in. My husband also still has pain in one eye. However,
we're both happy that we did it.
Feel free to e-mail me directly if you have other questions.
-Rachel
/~\*/~\*/~\*/~\*/~\*/~\*/~\*/~\*/~\*/~\*/~\*/~\*/~\*/~\*/~\*/~\*/~\*/~\*
Rachel Louis ph.: 413-597-2347
Williams College fax: 413-597-3489
Center for Environmental Studies Rachel....@Williams.edu
Kellogg House
Williamstown, MA 01267
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Lasix Surgery?
From: Keith Hobman <kho...@sk.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:01:03 -0700
I've had it. I took six weeks off heavy training and about 3 weeks
completely off weight. Unfortunately I had a Nationals to compete in in
powerlifting in late Feb and I had my surgery on January 6th this year. So
it made training tough.
I was told that while the eye flaps are healing there is a chance of
tearing while lifting. This makes sense to me - I've burst blood vessels in
my eyes while lifting, so I know there is a lot of pressure created. Since
this is your vision I would err to the cautious side.
I would plan on no weights for three weeks and then cycle down the
intensity for another three weeks as I did. You won't lose much strength or
size this way and my vision is still great 7 months and three PL
competitions later. Perhaps this is too cautious, but...
Worked for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Lasix Surgery?
From: "Bernie Hayden" <hay...@xkl.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:01:37 -0700
I had LASIK surgery a little over a year and a half ago. You don't want to
do much of anything the first couple of days. You CAN do more but it's in
your best interests not to. They'll give you a pair of wrap around sun
glasses which in addition to limiting the light level are there to keep you
from inadvertanly rubbing your eyes (something you probably do without
really thinking about it).
I cann't imagine an Opthamolgist telling you you need 4-6 weeks off from
weights. I was given the OK to do all I wanted after a week. LASIK is
very different in that regard to the older RK procedure. Weights are OK
since blood presure is not a factor to the cornea. Sweat in the eyes
should be avoided but it's not a huge deal after a week. Keeping the eyes
moist is a big deal. For example you would want to avoid activity that
resulted in a lot of wind or grit getting in your eyes and wear suitable
protection if out in the direct sun.
While I was able to drive the following day (but probably shouldn't have :-)
I've had two friends go though the procedure with a little bumpier ride.
Both of them complained of fairly severe pain the first couple of days but
were fine in a week. The vast majority of people I know that have had the
procedure have had results more like mine and all but one has had vision
return to 20:25 or better. I would highly recommend going to a place that
you have personal recommendations from. The friends I mentioned with
problems shopped price. Here in Seattle it's a quick trip across the
border to Canada where the surgury is about 25% of the cost here in the US.
There are a lot of people getting into the business and I think some are
notably better than others.
-Bernie-
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Lasix Surgery?
From: Tony Lill <ajl...@ajlc.waterloo.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:02:00 -0700
>>>>> "Paul" == Paul Robinson <p...@sullivanleavitt.com> writes:
Paul> Has anyone had Lasix Surgery? I have heard conflicts as to
Paul> whethe there are lifting restrictions imposed post-surgery.
Paul> One Opthamologist told me there is not, just be certain not
Paul> to let perspiration in your eyes. The second said to drop
Paul> my weight to 60% of my current routine for a period of 4-6
Paul> weeks. Does anyone have a definite answer or personal
Paul> history to share?
I'd worry more about the fact that around 50% of people who get this
surgery report some loss of night vision (according to today's
paper). Also, there's not a lot of data about what happens to people
who get this surgery when they get older.
I think I'll stick with contacts until they get all the bugs
worked out.
--
Tony Lill, Tony...@AJLC.Waterloo.ON.CA
President, A. J. Lill Consultants fax/data (519) 650 3571
539 Grand Valley Dr., Cambridge, Ont. N3H 2S2 (519) 241 2461
--------------- http://www.ajlc.waterloo.on.ca/ ----------------
"Welcome to All Things UNIX, where if it's not UNIX, it's CRAP!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Nutrition Seminar With CEUs
From: "Thomas Incledon" <hps...@mediaone.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:02:54 -0700
Hello all:
I will be giving a 6 hour nutrition seminar in the San Francisco/Oakland
California area on 7/22/00. The contact info is below. I think the charge
is 70-80 dollars for the six hour seminar and we are offering CEUs for a
variety of organizations. The handout alone and references are worth more
than the attendance fee.
Paul Southern
President, Tri-Valley Nutri-Sport LLC
4930 Dublin Blvd., Suite 840
Dublin, CA 94568
(925)560-1043 Fax (925)560-0972
Later,
Tom
Thomas Incledon, MS, RD, LD, LN, CSCS, NSCA-CPT
Adjunct Professor of Kinesiology and Nutrition
Math, Science, and Technology
Nova Southeastern University
and
Research Scientist
Department of Physiology and Biophysics
Department of Exercise and Sport Science
University of Miami
Mailing address:
619 NW 90th Terrace
Plantation, FL 33324
954-577-0689
hps...@mediaone.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Sites?
From: JUMP...@aol.com
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:03:24 -0700
Can somebody please tell me where I can find a site that shows me preferbly
in animation how to lift weights, I need this because I recently got a new
workout and the trainer hanst showed me how to do these excersizes and hes
busy so im trying to find this on my own. Thankx
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: MTS - Cupid
From: Six Foot Lioness <SixF...@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:02:24 -0700
<<
[You should be able to get a cable modem in Venice (our six-foot
lioness could tell you more about that). Wowzers. -MTS]
>>
Six Foot Lioness is all ready to torture Ms. Wedderburn, who's
planning to learn how to cruise (and maybe even dance???) on
rollerskates on the famous Venice beaches!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Music......
From: SxCxOx...@aol.com
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:02:37 -0700
Hey I need to know what some goood workout music would be you know.....Like
something that would really get me pumped up all crazy and stuff you know
what I mean....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Radical New Chest Training Needed.
From: Arthur Schloth <sch...@ICD.Teradyne.COM>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:17:57 -0700
My advise is to stop training chest using the bench press for a while.
Try weighted dips. However, use correct form to target the chest.
(see Stuart McRobert's book "Insiders Tell-All Guide", or a Shawn Phillips
artilce on chest training in Muscle Media).
You may also incorporate hammer strength, dumbell presses, incline presses,
flies.
Make sure you do not over train. I only do two of the above listed exercise
per work out for chest, with only 2 "work" sets per exercise.
I train chest once every five days maximum.
regards,
Art Schloth
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Just getting started
From: browncy <bro...@auburn.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:12:24 -0700
> Since I'm just starting out and it's still sort of an experiment, I
>wanted to try it with the minimum of equipment and expense so I'm just
>working out with dumbbells. I'm following a book by Joyce Vedral, Ph.D.
>called _Total Fitness_. It's a bit low key, but it's okay for for my
>needs at present, since I'm coming from a very out of shape condition.
>I'm doing this at home and really don't know anyone else who's doing
>this and discuss questions, which is why I've joined this list.
That's good to hear. I wish my dad would pick up weight lifting. He's 49.
> My question is about knowing when to increase the weights.
I can relate to that. I used to just go in the weight room and do the same
weight, same amount of reps, each workout. I didn't improve a bit. Then I
realized that I was always doing the same thing because it was easist to
remember... I could have gone up, but I was more comfortable doing the same
thing each time. It was mental laziness that in short caused me to waste a
whole year of weightlifting. So about 6 months ago I started recording my
workouts. And, I noticed that I started to improve again. I now make it a
goal that for each exercise I do, I must either increase the weight, or do
at least one more rep, that what I did the last workout. I rarely fail to
meet this goal. Right after doing an exercise, I write down how much
weight I will do next workout. That's important, because when you're
breathing hard and you can hardly write because you just finished the last
set is when you best know how much weight to do next workout! Here is what
I did in bench today:
(Exercise) (What I did) (What I will do next time)
Bench 145-12, 155-8, 165-6&2 145-12, 155-10, 165-8
I did 145# 12 times, 155# 8 times, and 165# 6 times, plus two partner
assisted reps. Like you, I was also doing 12-10-8. I didn't get it, so
next time I will do the same thing and try again. A positive was on
Friday's workout I did 12, 8, 4&2... so on the third set today I did two
more than I did Friday. I should get 12-10-8 in two or three more
workouts. Once I do, I will do 155, 165, 175, and start over. Or, I may
decide to start a heavy cycle (probably 175, 180, 185) and do three sets of
five. You see how the notebook forces me to push myself each workout? It
keeps me honest, rather than simply doing the same thing just because it's
what I'm used to. I strongly recommend that you record your workouts also.
It will pay dividends.
> If I increase the 10# for the first reps, does that mean I also need
>to increase weights for the subsequent reps? Or should I just increase
>the 10# reps and leave the others alone for now?
No, it is perfectly acceptable to do the same weight the first two sets,
or even all sets. I would do 15#, 15#, 20# your next workout, and see how
that goes.
Good luck,
Derek Brown
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: "The MASTER Critic Siff" Or just plain GOD
From: stef <se...@duke.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:11:11 -0700
Ray and Alwyn,
I completely disagree with your comments. How can you be interested in
stopping criticism that is directed at flaws in arguments and study design,
unsupported statements, misinformation etc? Especially when comments are
presented in an open forum not only allowing, but _inviting_ debate.
Hey, where I am...if you make statements that can't be supported you get
called for "handwaving arguments" (which is a polite way of saying "you are
talking out of your ass"). Once, post a seminar an attendee got up and
said (along these lines): If I took my shoe...and dipped it in a pile of
shit...and some of it stuck on my shoe...I would NEVER...EVER...say I'd
found the "shit receptor"!!!
If you find fault with Siff's commentary then by all means...challenge it.
Why attack him instead of what is the subject of criticism? If you are
intimidated or offended by systematic inquiry or writing styles or
whatever...just hit the delete button.
stef
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: LIFTER TARA
From: Mcs...@aol.com
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:12:43 -0700
This article may be of interest. It discusses a rapidly improving US
weightlifter, Tara Nott:
http://www.usoc.org/sports_az/wl/071300release.html
Dr Mel C Siff
Denver, USA
mcs...@aol.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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