weights #2380
The Weights Mailing List
Re: Pre- cooling?
by Mandaru, Dan M <Dan.M....@team.telstra.com>
Re: Reply
by Enzo S Torino <enzo....@bms.com>
Soy for Men
by wedderburn <wedde...@utech.net>
Training in the morning
by Loren Chiu <loren...@hotmail.com>
Re: Ultimate Orange/Pro Orange?
by Enzo S Torino <enzo....@bms.com>
Re: WebSite with different work-out routines
by Arnab Ghosh <phu...@mindless.com>
Re: Website with different work-out routines?
by Constantine, Steve <SCon...@mnc.com>
Re: WebSite with different work-out routines?
by Laree Draper <ldr...@davedraper.com>
Re: Ask the Master
by <Mcs...@aol.com>
Re: before or after?
by Mandaru, Dan M <Dan.M....@team.telstra.com>
"one set vs many sets per exercise" research?
by Sherbahadur Khurshid <sku...@pop.bennington.edu>
Re: Dislocated Patella (Knee-Cap)
by mail.se-acpub.duke.edu <se...@duke.edu>
Re: knee problems
by <DO...@aol.com>
Re: L-Glutamine and Alpha Lipoic Acid?
by Thomas Incledon <hps...@mediaone.net>
Re: Low Carb Diets?
by Enzo S Torino <enzo....@bms.com>
Re: Opinions on various supplements, please
by Thomas Incledon <hps...@mediaone.net>
Side Bends
by Thomas Incledon <hps...@mediaone.net>
re:ultimate orange/pro orange?
by Andrew K. Chen <akc...@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Pre- cooling?
From: "Mandaru, Dan M" <Dan.M....@team.telstra.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 07:05:18 -0700
>>
From: "Gary Stebbing" <gary.s...@talk21.com
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:22:17 -0700
Does anyone have any information on the effect of using of ice vests to pre
cool athletes before competition in hot climates? I have located some
info through a search on Medline, could anyone suggest any other possible
sources?
<<
I don't have any references but I do know that several Australian football
teams used the vests when they played pre-season games in tropical Darwin.
The players didn't wear them during the game, obviously, but during game
breaks or when they were resting on the bench. I believe they were
considered useful as part of an overall strategy to keep the body cool but
given the intensity of Australian football - I'm not sure how effective
they were.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Reply
From: Enzo S Torino <enzo....@bms.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 07:07:21 -0700
Yes, I am totally for real....people "do" get lean without drugs. I will
not even bother arguing about this. Also, you think one set more equates
to bodybuilding crap?? Whatever Uxo....Like I said, if it works for
you...go for it. Now, you can get back to your side bends and I'll get
back to my bodybuilding crap.
ALSO, have a question for the more reputable list members about side bends.
Is that a natural movement for the body...I mean, does that put an undeeded
strain on the spine? I'm asking because, I have no experience with them
and can't see where they would prove to be useful in a training regimine.
Thanks in advance.
~E
p.s. Uxo, this is not a personal attack on you...i just don't agree with
your opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Soy for Men
From: "wedderburn" <wedde...@utech.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 07:09:13 -0700
Granted, Mel, a lot of guys in the Orient eat a lot of soy. But let's
face it, a lot of people in various parts of the world eat what they can
get their hands on and the Orient, in the majority of cases, is that sort
of a place. It is now coming to light that there are a lot of
estrogens occurring in the food supply that weren't in it years ago or are
not in it naturally. A good example are the hormones given to cattle to
make them grow faster. Many people involved in weight training eat quite
a bit of beef. It's a great source of protein. But if the cattle are
given weight gaining enhancements, these are passed along to the top of
the food chain. I would encourage everyone to read T.C. Luoma's article
about soy protein on www.testosterone.net. Search the archives for it.
T.C. does not say that eating soy is a sure thing in causing problems in
men, but he makes some excellent points. If you read labels you will see
that you are getting plenty of soy in many products. The other day, I
picked up a jar of mayonaise to find it had corn syrup in it. Corn syup
in mayo? I thought the stuff was whipped eggs and oil. There are
pre-packaged products that don't add sugar, but very few. Since we don't
always eat foods in their natural states, and even when you think you are,
you may not be due to farming and processing practices, it pays to
consider some of these things. The idea behind soy is that soy
promotes estrogen in the body, and soy is highly recommended for
post-menopausal women for this reason (check out some of the information
on www.lef.org the site of Life Extension Foundaiton). Of late, there are
more and more estrogens in the environment. If I remember correctly, they
even exist in the plastic bottles that contain water that we all seem to
be drinking from constantly. Again, this is just a theory, but it does
make sense. For me, a scoop of soy and a scoop of whey is ideal, but if I
were a man, I'd drop the soy protein powder. Rosemary
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Training in the morning
From: "Loren Chiu" <loren...@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 07:10:21 -0700
>How can you keep awake and fully focused when working out after just
>waking? Sometimes I get like 9 hours of sleep from Friday into Saturday,
>go to the gym at 2 PM after getting up at 12, and still find myself yawning
>continuously throughout my workouts. And I play basketball before my
>workouts to try to raise the good old HR a little. Yet, even with the aid
>of that cardio substitute and a breakfast with a multi-vitamin at least an
>hour before, I am still not fully awake. That is why I prefer to lift from
>around 8:30PM until my gym closes at around 10.
>
>You, on the other hand, go into the gym just after waking, without a
>breakfast, and accompanied with only the fat on your body to provide
>energy. How the heck can you concentate and stay awake??? You have to let
>me know. I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
Man, I'd love to get 9 hours of sleep a night. I'm lucky to get 6 hours
(lately close to 4) and I still manage to have some great workouts (except
for a knee injury, but that's another story).
I think that if you're dedicated enough to your training and have goals set
in mind, you can train at anytime during the day and it won't really matter.
Loren Chiu
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Ultimate Orange/Pro Orange?
From: Enzo S Torino <enzo....@bms.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 07:10:54 -0700
Bill, I've used Ultamite Orange prior to weight training. For me
personally, it makes my heart race to much. Can't concentrate on the
movements at hand. I would recommend changing your routine around if it is,
as you referred to it, stale.
On a side note, I've used UO prior to a cardio-kickboxing (please, no
snickering...) class and felt it helped get me through the class. I do
cycle on and off ECA stacks, but it fails to have the same effect for me as
the UO did.
Good Luck!
~E
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: WebSite with different work-out routines
From: Arnab Ghosh <phu...@mindless.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 07:11:41 -0700
Jason Alexander Melnyk <jme...@UDel.Edu> wrote:
>
> From: Jason Alexander Melnyk <jme...@UDel.Edu>
> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:26:25 -0700
>
> Anyone know of any sites out there that list different work-out
> scehemes/programs? I found a sit that dealth with HIT (High Intensity
> Training) and listed numerous work-outs but I'm not looking for HIT
> programs. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
There are some on www.olympussports.com, quite a variety, although I've
never tried any. Some of the other content is pretty puerile though, but
there is some useful information there, if you're willing to look past it.
Arn.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Website with different work-out routines?
From: "Constantine, Steve" <SCon...@mnc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 07:12:07 -0700
Jason,
Working with clients gives me the opportunity to come up with
various types of workouts based on their personal goals. I established a
website a put a few of their routines up their for others to print and use.
Feel free to print them out and give them a try and I am always welcome to
suggestions. http://www.2-fit.com/ link to the bodybuilding page for the
programs.
Steve
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: WebSite with different work-out routines?
From: Laree Draper <ldr...@davedraper.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 07:12:59 -0700
>Anyone know of any sites out there that list different work-out
>scehemes/programs? I found a sit that dealth with HIT (High Intensity
>Training) and listed numerous work-outs but I'm not looking for HIT
>programs. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Jason
Hi Jason,
Over the past year we've collected a sampling of workouts from around the
world, along with a selection of Dave's favorite recommendations.
Here are some of Dave's:
http://davedraper.com/weight-training-tips-contents.html
Here are some IronOnline contributed bodypart routines:
http://davedraper.com/iron-online-sample-workouts.html
And here are some 8 week programs offered by our discussion group members:
http://davedraper.com/iron-online-8-week-programs.html
Take care!
Laree Draper
http://davedraper.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Ask the Master
From: Mcs...@aol.com
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:46:12 -0700
On 7/11/00, Alwyn Cosgrove<Alw...@aol.com> wrote:
<<
With the greatest respect intended to yourself (as I have read and studied
a lot of your material), it is clear that you are a very vocal critic of
many strength coaches in this field. In the past you have been anti-Paul
Chek, anti- Charles Poliquin and currently you seem to have a problem with
Ian King.
>>
***I unrepentently am a vocal critic of anything that is presented as fact
when it really is a lot more fictional in nature and I refuse to keep quiet
when I know that the public are being misled. Since you have read my
posts in the past, you should have noticed that my criticism is based
entirely upon the incorrect or unsubstantiated claims about any training
system or theory, not upon the personality of the individual who has
proliferated those ideas. In fact, I have great respect for the work of
some excellent scientists and coaches, whose work I often quote, though
their personalities are rather offensive and unpleasant.
My criticisms of many of those training myths (none of which, by the way,
is the original work of any 'gurus' who have been criticised here)
appeared in my book "Facts & Fallacies of Fitness" and in my international
lectures (from the late 1970s) way before any of these training
personalities became prominent, so you will notice that it is CONTENT and
not personalities which have been one of my concerns for many years. So,
when that same content was regurgitated by some latter day fitness
prophets, the selfsame critiques were applied.
I have repeatedly said that if some people choose to stand centre stage,
then they can expect both brickbats and bouquets. If one tends to litter
the stage with questionable work, then the number of bouquets obviously
will tend to decrease.
You will also have noted that I am not by no means alone in my concern that
certain self-proclaimed experts and popular magazines frequently are
disseminating ideas and beliefs that simply do not have any scientific,
clinical or research support. In fact, you might have noticed that Brett
Guthrie was the one who initiated the most recent concern with some of
King's errors. Maybe you don't mind a 'Master' erroneously stating that
there is such a thing as "metabolic hypertrophy", but I know that there are
others out there who actually appreciate that such errors be indentified
and corrected before they become doctrine.
Invariably, the criticism by those of us who do not blindly accept all
training doctrine, dogma and myths centres around the fact that many of
these authors do not offer any genuine evidence for what they write or say.
If they offered tangible evidence for the information that they pass on,
then they would not be criticised as often as they are. There simply is no
smoke without fire.
There is a great deal of error and inaccuracy in what some of the fitness
gurus write - are you saying that any of us who notice such misinformation
should simply ignore it and not draw from our scientific and practical
experience to help others who are searching for a more definitive view of
training?
<<
It is however a waste of time and effort to post your criticisms on this
board ...
>>
*** Judging from many letters that I receive openly and privately, this is
not what many people feel about my critical pointing out of inaccuracies
and fallacies in the world of fitness. Some are actually very grateful
that they are exposed to dissident points of view on this listserv.
However, I can quite happily cease offering such information if that is
preferred.
Now, let's put these matters aside and focus on the King issues that Brett
and I were very unhappy about, namely the concepts of metabolic hypertrophy
and nerve hypertrophy. Now that you have addressed the 'guru' issue so
attentively, maybe you would care to help both of us understand the
problems here. Can you guide WeightsNet readers a bit on the topics of
nerve and metabolic hypertrophy? Do you consider these concepts to be
accurate and do they have any application in training? Have you any
references on the matter to show Brett and I that were were misguided to
criticise these concepts? If so, I will be the first to retract what I
wrote.
<<
I would suggest that you contact these individuals directly and keep the
pointless diatribe off of an otherwise excellent educational resource
(weights.net)
>>
***Now that is the pot calling the kettle black, is it not?
Dr Mel C Siff
Denver, USA
mcs...@aol.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: before or after?
From: "Mandaru, Dan M" <Dan.M....@team.telstra.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:47:28 -0700
>From: "Jonn D. Abshire" <miste...@musclemail.com
<<<Do you consume anything at all before a workout, aside from a glass of
water?
<<<How can you keep awake and fully focused when working out after just
waking? Sometimes I get like 9 hours of sleep from Friday into Saturday, go
to the gym at 2 PM after getting up at 12, and still find myself yawning
continuously throughout my workouts. And I play basketball before my
workouts to try to raise the good old HR a little. Yet, even with the aid
of that cardio substitute and a breakfast with a multi-vitamin at least an
hour before, I am still not fully awake. That is why I prefer to lift from
around 8:30PM until my gym closes at around 10.
<<<You, on the other hand, go into the gym just after waking, without a
breakfast, and accompanied with only the fat on your body to provide energy.
How the heck can you concentate and stay awake??? You have to let me know.
I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
<<<
Well, Mr Huge, I don't know if it's the best way but my wife and I are in
the gym at 6.00 am three mornings a week before work. It is early and
often we're half asleep but, we've found, it really doesn't take too long
to get into the rhythm of things. The hard part is getting out of bed! As
to its effectiveness versus working out another time, for me I'm more tired
when I get home! So it's a clear choice of working out in the morning or
probably not working out at all!
Cheers, Dan
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: "one set vs many sets per exercise" research?
From: "Sherbahadur Khurshid" <sku...@pop.bennington.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:44:03 -0700
Hi,
I've been thinking about the "one set vs many sets per exercise"
debate and was wondering if any research has been performed
which uses each side of the body for each type of training protocol.
For example, instead of assigning a particular training protocol
to a certain number of people and a different protocol to different
people, why not use one set per exercise for the left side of the
body and many sets per exercise for the right side of the body.
This would keep the number of variables down, and might also
show that some people respond better to each type of training.
I have no medical background. I'm just curious if such research
has been conducted and, if not, then why.
Has anyone had personal experience experimenting this way ?
-Sher
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Dislocated Patella (Knee-Cap)
From: "mail.se-acpub.duke.edu" <se...@duke.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:48:42 -0700
> About five weeks ago, I dislocated my knee-cap playing football on the
> beach. This has happened to me before, but it has been about five years.
> The other times, I recovered in about a week. However, this time, I
> still feel some pain, and it is still difficult to run. The doctor said
> to strengthen up my vastus medialis (tear-drop part of quad) to pull the
> knee-cap towards the middle and keep it in place.
I had a doctor tell me that they could cut away some of the opposite side
of the quad group...suddenly, I found it very easy to run! Right outta
there ;)
>I always thought my
> quads were plenty strong enough since I can easilty squat 350.
Yeah, but how do you squat? Especially-- how far down?
At least for me, front squats _all_ the way down keep things balanced and
strong. Back squats are primarily ham/glute for me...deads/cleans are
intermediate.
And I'm still pretty careful in jump+twist situations...
> Has anyone else had this injury? If so, what did you do to recover?
I recovered from the acute injuries with a bit of ice and patience.
Apparently, the looseness of my ligaments etc prevented any real structural
damage.
stef
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: knee problems
From: DO...@aol.com
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:49:17 -0700
My doctor first had me go on anti-inflammatory (an NSAID) and stretch out
my quadricep three times a day. That did reduce the pain but the first
time I played basketball again after the swelling and pain came right back.
I am considering trying the anti-inflamatory again and not doing anything
in terms of contact exercise for a month or so. My doctor has never
mentioned physical therapy, but perhaps that could strengthen the areas
around the knee joint, and make the bone chip recede. If all else fails I
think I'll get a second opinion and then possibly the surgery to remove it.
Dave Greenberg
do...@aol.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: L-Glutamine and Alpha Lipoic Acid?
From: "Thomas Incledon" <hps...@mediaone.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:49:48 -0700
> Can someone explain in simple terms exactly what these supplements do and
> why are they beneficial to add to my training regimen?
L-glutamine has been shown in cell studies to counteract the catabolic
effects of cortisol. In human studies, they wacked some poor volunteers
with mega doses of cortisol (more then we could ever release) and found
that glutamine prevented some muscle loss from the super high cortisol.
L-glutamine has been also shown to stimulate growth hormone. Whether this
means anything is debatable. L-glutamine is used by many different immune
cells and also the cells that line your stomach, small intestine, and large
intestine. It has been speculated that L-glutamine may offer some
protection against infection by boosting immune function. The evidence
thus far (from human studies) is not very convincing, but there haven't
been many good studies either. On study combined L-glutamine with whey and
branched chain amino acids and found better gains in lean body mass then
whey protein by itself. Anecdotally many athletes really like L-glutamine.
Alpha-lipoic acid is used to stimulate the uptake of glucose (thereby
decreasing insulin) and increase glycogen stores. It has some application
for Type 2 diabetics. It is also a very unique antioxidant in that it can
self repair and generate new alpha-lipoic acid molecules to fight free
radicals. Some guys swear that when they take 200 mg or more after a high
carb meal that it helps glucose uptake. I noticed that on the low carb
list, several people reported better results with vanadyl sulfate for
lowering blood glucose levels. You can test these agents on your self by
eating a standard test meal (white bread) and using a glucometer to check
you glucose responses.
I hope that helps. If I was not clear please let me know.
Later,
Tom
Thomas Incledon, MS, RD, LD, LN, CSCS, NSCA-CPT
Director of Sports Nutrition
Human Performance Specialists, Inc.
619 NW 90th Terrace
Plantation, FL 33324
954-577-0689
hps...@mediaone.net
Journal of Performance Enhancement
http://members.tripod.com/JPE_Sportscience/
Coming soon: Performance Nutrition Newsletter!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Low Carb Diets?
From: Enzo S Torino <enzo....@bms.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:50:13 -0700
> I`m planning on going on a cyclic keto diet can any one point me in the
> direction of a good site outlining the basics and what experiences have
> others had and what diet did they follow.
Two words..."Lyle McDonald"
~E
ps. Check out the book section on weightsnet.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Opinions on various supplements, please
From: "Thomas Incledon" <hps...@mediaone.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:50:49 -0700
> 1. 5-METHYL-7-METHOXY-ISOFLAVONE
I just collaborated on a study with Joey Antonio. 800 mg only resulted in
fat loss. In non steroid users I doubt it will do much for muscle growth
unless 1600 mg or more per day is taken. There is no research on dosages
this high. I have tried to take this much to pilot out some data for a
future study. I can't say it did anything. I am going to try a topical
application as well. I am curious if this would work for fat loss.
> 2. CHRYSIN
Doesn't work because it never gets inside you to any significant degree.
Life Extension claims they make it more bioavailable (a word that has no
common definition among the various organizations) with Bioperine. No
research on this combination has been published yet. Let's say it does work
though, chrysin is not a specific enzymes inhbitor it is more a general
enzyme inhbitor. So while you decrease aromatase activity, you may also
decrease other important enzymes.
> 3. 19-NOR-4-ANDROSTENEDIOL
No data that it works to increase lean body mass yet. Depending on the
delivery (ie topical, cyclodextrin, liposomal, oral) numerous pathways
exist where this can be converted into agents other than
19-nor-testosterone. It can exert both strogenic and androgenic effects.
> 4. TRIBULUS EXTRACT
So far it doesn't work. At least 4 separate studies (although 3 were
non-peer reviewed abstracts) have shown no effect of a tribulus product on
T levels. Of course non of the studies had the products analyzed so maybe
there was never anything in them.
> And one more. This is rather lengthy.
>
> 5. SEX-TIVA contains Avena sativa, Nettle Root, Panax Ginseng and Saw
> Palmetto powdered extracts. Daily use has been shown to boost sexual
drive,
> performance, and sensation with good to spectacular results for about 70%
> of women and men who try it, by freeing naturally produced testosterone
> from protein bonding and keeping it from turning into DHT. A report on a
> similar formula by TV's Hardcopy highlighted "spectacular" results,
> generating over 500,000 phone calls in a couple of weeks! Users need at
> least low- normal testosterone levels for it to work. Females need about
> double the male dose. Take with tribulus extract or androstenedione for
> extra effect.
The combination above has not been studied or at least not published in any
database I search through (and there are quite a few). Studies have already
been done on Avena sativa and Saw Palmetto, showing no effects on T levels.
Same for Ginseng. I think there is some potential for Nettle Root, but
there are very few studies on it thus far.
Later,
Tom
Thomas Incledon, MS, RD, LD, LN, CSCS, NSCA-CPT
Director of Sports Nutrition
Human Performance Specialists, Inc.
619 NW 90th Terrace
Plantation, FL 33324
954-577-0689
hps...@mediaone.net
Journal of Performance Enhancement
http://members.tripod.com/JPE_Sportscience/
Coming soon: Performance Nutrition Newsletter!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Side Bends
From: "Thomas Incledon" <hps...@mediaone.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:52:37 -0700
> ALSO, have a question for the more reputable list members about side
bends.
> Is that a natural movement for the body...I mean, does that put an
undeeded
> strain on the spine? I'm asking because, I have no experience with them
> and can't see where they would prove to be useful in a training regimine.
I don't see anything outright dangerous with side bends. It seems that
many bodybuilders avoid them for fear of developing a wider waste. Since a
wide waist can kill one's placing, I can understand the fear. The
usefulness of this movement in a training regimen really depends on what
the individual's goals/needs are, but for the most part I can think of
better movements. I do a lot of bending and twisting in competition with
heavy loads. An exercise I picked up from Jason Burnell on the Strength
List is one arm DB deadlifts with the DB held outside the leg. Very good
for developing stability for the more awkward movements. Not as good as
lifting kegs with water though.
Later,
Tom
Thomas Incledon, MS, RD, LD, LN, CSCS, NSCA-CPT
Director of Sports Nutrition
Human Performance Specialists, Inc.
619 NW 90th Terrace
Plantation, FL 33324
954-577-0689
hps...@mediaone.net
Journal of Performance Enhancement
http://members.tripod.com/JPE_Sportscience/
Coming soon: Performance Nutrition Newsletter!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: re:ultimate orange/pro orange?
From: "Andrew K. Chen" <akc...@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:53:32 -0700
I don't think there's anything terribly bad about occasionally using
stuff with caffeine and ephedra, but it's easy to become reliant on such
products. I usually use Twinlab metabolift or Sportpharma Thermadrene,
only if I really feel tired and sluggish and I know that I have no other
time slot to work out. The main thing about these products is that if you
have high blood pressure, or heart problems, you might want to avoid
them. I'm not sure about the taste of Ultimate Orange, etc. where you
have to mix a powder, but I know for sure it's much more economical to
pop a capsule or two than to buy the canister or powder. Andrew
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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