Lc eth in Turkish??
Becky Davis
Style Manual, and the Chicago Manual of Style indicate no; and Bringhurst
says eth is used [only?] in Icelandic, Faeroese, Vietnamese, and
Anglo-Saxon.
Yet because it appears in the author's original hardcopy, the client
believes that lc eth is correct in the following family name (which could be
the Turkish equivalent of Smith or Suzuki, for all I know):
O-eth-u-t-c-u (the O and both u's are accented with
a diaeresis and the c with a cedilla)
Because the manuscript has gone through several platform and
character-mapping changes--it was created by a Russian author (presumably
using a Russian app and OS and Cyrillic fonts) and was edited in a
Japanese-language program (using a Japanese OS and Japanese fonts) before I
started work on it in English-language software (U.S.-E OS, U.S.-E Quark,
etc., and Latin fonts)--I can easily imagine that a different glyph
transmogrified into an eth somewhere along the line before the digital files
reached me.
If this eth is indeed correct, I'll update my references. If it's utterly
impossible, I can advise the client. But first I'd like to know whether my
ignorance is showing or I'm actually likely to save the client a few
minutes' embarrassment when finished books are delivered.
So does anyone know the story on eth and Turkish?
Writing from the heart of Tokyo,
Becky Davis
<e...@twics.com> <http://www.twics.com/~eds/>
Papers for Printing: <http://www.twics.com/~eds/paper/>
Exploring Old Tokyo: <http://www.twics.com/~eds/oldtokyo/>
Kent K. Steinbrenner
g-with-a-breve in Latin-5, which is the character set that's used for
Turkish.
I proved that by this experiment: I went to http://www.hurriyet.com.tr, a
Turkish newspaper (Hürriyet)... my IE5 browser correctly encoded the page as
Turkish (Windows) and I could see all the Turkish characters because I have
all the multilingual options installed. Now I switched the encoding of the
page to Western European (Windows), and all the g-with-breves transmogrified
into eths, and the dotless i changed to ı, and so forth...
--Kent
Vladimir G Ivanovic
---Vladimir
Vladimir G. Ivanovic http://www.leonora.org/~vladimir
2770 Cowper St. vlad...@acm.org
Palo Alto, CA 94306-2447 +1 650 678 8014
Jorge de Buen
- with dieresis: o, u
- with circumfles: a, u
- with overdot: i (distinct from undotted i, both lower and uppercase)
- with cedilla: c, s
- with breve: g
This list by Barbara seems to be correct and complete. There is no eth in
Turkish. The list of special characters in Turkish is also in The Chicago
Manual of Style, 14th Ed., 9.85.
Moreover, the a circumflex is in the way out, according to some authors. The
u circumflex is used only in proper names. Finally, the G breve is used only
in words all written in uppercase.
Saludos.
Jorge de Buen U.
jde...@caliente.com.mx
Tijuana, México
Barbara Beeton
Is there such a glyph? Hart's Rules, the U.S. Government Printing Office
Style Manual, and the Chicago Manual of Style indicate no; and Bringhurst
says eth is used [only?] in Icelandic, Faeroese, Vietnamese, and
Anglo-Saxon.
i can't find any evidence of such a glyph. here are the turkish
glyphs with diacritics that i know about:
- with dieresis: o, u
- with circumfles: a, u
- with overdot: i (distinct from undotted i, both lower and uppercase)
- with cedilla: c, s
- with breve: g
in the sources i'm checking (a list of turkish mathematicians and an
ancient librarian's list of accented letters by language), i don't
find any instance of either "th" or "dh", which are the most likely
representations of the sound usually represented by that glyph.
Because the manuscript has gone through several platform and
character-mapping changes--it was created by a Russian author (presumably
using a Russian app and OS and Cyrillic fonts) and was edited in a
Japanese-language program (using a Japanese OS and Japanese fonts) before I
started work on it in English-language software (U.S.-E OS, U.S.-E Quark,
etc., and Latin fonts)--I can easily imagine that a different glyph
transmogrified into an eth somewhere along the line before the digital
files reached me.
i think the passage through russian/cyrillic might be the source of
this glyph; it's common in the transliteration of serbian (croatian
uses "dj" for the same phoneme). i don't know the sound shifts that
might be applied between turkish and russian, but suspect they're
likely (as they are with western european names: "hilbert" becomes
"gilbert" in russian).
If this eth is indeed correct, I'll update my references. If it's utterly
impossible, I can advise the client. But first I'd like to know whether my
ignorance is showing or I'm actually likely to save the client a few
minutes' embarrassment when finished books are delivered.
i can't say it's utterly impossible, but would be willing to say
"highly unlikely" and ask for more information before committing it
to print.
cheers. -- bb
Alistair Vining
> Style Manual, and the Chicago Manual of Style indicate no; and Bringhurst
> says eth is used [only?] in Icelandic, Faeroese, Vietnamese, and
> Anglo-Saxon.
Does he really say Vietnamese uses eth? If so, he'd be confusing it with
U+0110 / U+0111 latin letter d with stroke. It's IPA as well.
> Yet because it appears in the author's original hardcopy, the client
> believes that lc eth is correct in the following family name
> (which could be the Turkish equivalent of Smith or Suzuki,
> for all I know):
>
> O-eth-u-t-c-u (the O and both u's are accented with
> a diaeresis and the c with a cedilla)
g with breve is in the same position in the Windows Turkish character set as
eth is in the Western European one. Ogütçü? You need a foreign language
typographer, and I think we have one lying around here on typo-l...
Al.
Richard Weltz
writes:
> Is there such a glyph? Hart's Rules, the U.S. Government Printing Office
> Style Manual, and the Chicago Manual of Style indicate no; and Bringhurst
> says eth is used [only?] in Icelandic, Faeroese, Vietnamese, and
> Anglo-Saxon.
Writing from home, Becky, (small vacation), but to the best of my
recollection, there is certainly no such character as an eth used in Turkish
and never has been. After your description of all the platforms/programs with
which this copy has been edited, I suspect that another character -- best
guess is the s-cedilla -- got transformed someplace along the way. But we
have set a fair amount of Turkish over the years and never an eth within it.
-- Dick Weltz, Spectrum Multilanguage Communications, NYC
Translation, Typography & Prepress in All Foreign Languages
====================================================
Info, humor, recipe, freebies, and more! Visit our Language
News & Notes pages at -- http://come.to/spectrum
Becky Davis
your info, it was easy to persuade the client to verify that eth with the
author--who said, "Yes, it's supposed to be a g-breve, not an lc eth." The
client is very happy, and so am I.
Adam Twardoch (List)
Following the topic, could somebody please describe briefly the difference
between eth, dcroat and dstroke? Are those similar or same glyphs used for
different characters in different languages?
Adam Twardoch
Gary Munch
Eth (lc) is like a Greek lc delta (MacRoman è) with a diagonal cross on the
ascender. the dcroat (sounds like dj, I think?) is a standard Latin lc d
with a horizontal crossbar on the ascender; I don't think there's a
difference between the latter and dstroke.
Gary
Alistair Vining
> cross on the ascender. the dcroat (sounds like dj, I think?) is
> a standard Latin lc d with a horizontal crossbar on the ascender;
> I don't think there's a difference between the latter and dstroke.
There's a page on the design of the eth at:
http://www.ismennt.is/not/briem/text/1/11/11.3.eth.html
As far as I know, there's no difference in the glyphs used for d with stroke
in Croatian, Vietnamese (or Sámi, apparently). I've sometimes seen people
say that the uppercase stroke only projects to the left, but:
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/developers/fdsspec/uppercase.htm
says nothing of the sort. There's also U+0189 latin capital letter african
d which uses the same glyph.
Towards the end of the last century and at the beginning of this, the eth
was sometimes printed as d with stroke, though whether this was an attempt
to rationalize things or just a lack of appropriate type, I don't know.
And although I don't have a Mac, isn't the symbol the partial differential
sign, rather than a lowercase delta? Which isn't to say I haven't seen Old
English texts printed using that overprinted with a slash (/).
Al.
ibbetson
>And although I don't have a Mac, isn't the symbol the partial differential
>sign, rather than a lowercase delta? Which isn't to say I haven't seen Old
>English texts printed using that overprinted with a slash (/).
The partial differential sign doesn't have a cross bar. AFAIK it's an
alternative form of lc delta.
David ib who was once a mathematician.
David ib
David Ibbetson * 133 Wilton Street * Unit 506 * Toronto M5A 4A4
mailto:ibbe...@idirect.com
Phone:(416)363-6692 Cel:(416)831-6692 Fax:(416)363-4987
Gary Munch
>http://www.ismennt.is/not/briem/text/1/11/11.3.eth.html
Isn't this a great site. A Mustread.
>And although I don't have a Mac, isn't the symbol the partial differential
>sign, rather than a lowercase delta? Which isn't to say I haven't seen Old
>English texts printed using that overprinted with a slash (/).
Right, caught out, that is indeed the partial differential, not the Greek
character lc delta . . . though the p.d. shares enough design features (and
is placed in a slot near the other MacMath Greek-derived sorts, and I do
think of it as delta anyway:-) and appears to be based on the delta.
barbara?
Gary
Barbara Beeton
Right, caught out, that is indeed the partial differential, not the Greek
character lc delta . . . though the p.d. shares enough design features (and
is placed in a slot near the other MacMath Greek-derived sorts, and I do
think of it as delta anyway:-) and appears to be based on the delta.
barbara?
as i understand it, the partial differential symbol is a variant on
the lowercase delta. (it also happens to be the same as the "italic"
form of a cyrillic lc d.)
checking this out in faulman's "buch der schrift", i find that the
origin of the gothic alphabet (that's the alphabet for the gothic
language, current in what is now part of northern germany sometime
late in the first millennium) was indeed a blending of greek and
runic, devised by the bishop wulfila for the purpose of being able
to write down a translation of the bible in the vernacular. it's
been a long time since i studied this, and i'd forgotten that the
order of the gothic alphabet is very similar to that of russian,
both, of course, influenced by the greek, not the latin.
in faulmann, the greek lc delta is given as the sound value of the
thorn, distinct from the d; my recollection of phonetic alphabets
is weak, and i don't know whether this is the current standard
for the voiced "th" (faulmann dates from 1890).
more than you wanted to know, gary?
-- bb
Gary Munch
>
> Right, caught out, that is indeed the partial differential, not the Greek
> character lc delta . . . though the p.d. shares enough design features
>(and
> is placed in a slot near the other MacMath Greek-derived sorts, and I do
> think of it as delta anyway:-) and appears to be based on the delta.
> barbara?
>
>as i understand it, the partial differential symbol is a variant on
>the lowercase delta. (it also happens to be the same as the "italic"
>form of a cyrillic lc d.)
Though also the cursive -be- can take the form of the modern Greek lc delta
that hooks its ascender back to the right.
The part.diff. delta shape is also similar to the blackletter rounded d,
similar to the Uncial D.
>checking this out in faulman's "buch der schrift", i find that the
>origin of the gothic alphabet (that's the alphabet for the gothic
>language, current in what is now part of northern germany sometime
>late in the first millennium) was indeed a blending of greek and
>runic, devised by the bishop wulfila for the purpose of being able
>to write down a translation of the bible in the vernacular. it's
>been a long time since i studied this, and i'd forgotten that the
>order of the gothic alphabet is very similar to that of russian,
>both, of course, influenced by the greek, not the latin.
>
>in faulmann, the greek lc delta is given as the sound value of the
>thorn, distinct from the d; my recollection of phonetic alphabets
>is weak, and i don't know whether this is the current standard
>for the voiced "th" (faulmann dates from 1890).
Edh is the IPA sign for voiced th, theta for unvoiced.
>more than you wanted to know, gary?
bb, nothing is ever more than I want to know!
Gary