TMF sitelaunch
Hrant Papazian
OK, it's a go:
http://www.themicrofoundry.com
Opinions of any shape, size and color highly welcome.
Thank You,
Hrant
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Ron Koster
>http://www.themicrofoundry.com
>
>Opinions of any shape, size and color highly welcome.
Nicely done, and good, clean HTML! That's always nice to see. :)
Just a couple of things, though...
I'd get rid of the tag you have in your <HEAD> there...
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
...because it's not all that necessary, really, and it *will* break older
browsers.
Also, watch all those transparent GIFs you have (and maybe some other
images?) that have no ALT tag. Include an empty ALT="" for those, otherwise
people who use voice browsers will keep seeing, er, hearing "image" every
time one of those appears without that.
And lastly, probably what you like the most and what would be my greatest
criticism is the left/right scrolling. It's neat, in a way, and I've used
it for an "art gallery" type page in the past myself, but you should be
aware that it won't work at all for anyone using WebTV. That is, it'll
"work", but WebTV takes any tables that are too wide for the screen and
just scrunches them together -- and you can imagine what that would do to
your site! And if you can't, well, here...
http://www.psymon.com/micro.gif
...that's what your site looks like using a WebTV viewer. Eek! But I don't
know if you care about that platform. It's definitely a small percentage of
web surfers out there, but also a growing percentage.
I'll leave all the content-oriented critiques to the rest of you folks, but
as far as your design goes, and other than the above, nice job! Quick
loading, good, clean HTML, etc. etc. etc.
Ron :)
Artists can color the sky red because they know it's blue.
Those of us who aren't artists must color things the way they
really are or people might think we're stupid. - Jules Feiffer
Allow me to introduce my selves... http://www.psymon.com
Digital art, dreams & fantasies... http://www.psymon.com/art/
Tom Chadwin
-WebTV takes any tables that are too wide for the screen and
-just scrunches them together
Oh God, say it's not so...
Tom Ch(ecking the job ads to see if he can get work in a less 'dynamic'
field...)
Ron Koster
>-WebTV takes any tables that are too wide for the screen and
>-just scrunches them together
>
>Oh God, say it's not so...
Sorry, no can do. But that's basically why if and when, whenever and
wherever I can, I always design my pages to work okay at the very least for
people with 640x480 monitor settings (and don't forget to take into account
the margins and scroll bar!), and if I'm able to I do them so that they
work fine at no more than 540 pixels wide. If you can keep that as your
target, you'll be fine.
Ron :)
PS. How come that sometimes when I hit "Reply To All" I get -- nicely --
both the list as well as the person who's message I'm replying to, but most
often what happens is that I end up with the list address twice as my
recipient, without the replied-to person as recipient? Don't suppose that
could be fixed, could it, List Mom?
Vladimir G Ivanovic
Netscape 4.73 on Linux has the text blocks ("Global Type Design", etc.)
laid out horizontally so most are invisible and require scrolling to
see. Same in Netscape 4.73 on WinNT 4.0.
---Vladimir
Vladimir G. Ivanovic http://www.leonora.org/~vladimir
2770 Cowper St. vlad...@acm.org
Palo Alto, CA 94306-2447 +1 650 678 8014
Hrant Papazian
>get rid of the tag you have in your <HEAD> there...
Technical HTML discussion off-list...
>WebTV takes any tables that are too wide for the
>screen and just scrunches them together
Right. I actually tried their "previewer" software
on my site last week. But that was just for fun,
because -as you alluded to- there are very few
WebTV users who would benefit from my site anyway.
Basically, I consider it a very worthwhile sacrifice.
There are actually bigger problems with horizontality,
but in the context of my site I see them as minor issues.
All in all, horizontality is good for you! :-)
>Quick loading, good, clean HTML, etc. etc. etc.
Thanks!
hhp
Alexios Zavras
> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
> ...because it's not all that necessary, really, and it *will* break older
> browsers.
Please, don't ! There *are* people who browse
with different default charsets and it's a pain
to manually switch when you get funny-looking text...
I've spent countless hours trying to convince
people to use charset=iso-8859-7 here in Greece.
I am not used to horizontal scrolling -- anyone
know of a mouse with an appropriate wheel ? :-)
--
-- zvr --
-- +---------------------------+ Alexios Zavras (-zvr-)
| H eytyxia den exei enoxes | z...@pobox.com
+-----------------------zvr-+
Hrant Papazian
>require scrolling
Uh, that's a feature, not a bug!
Note that, on the plus side, you never have to
scroll vertically (unless you're on a 640x480
display, in which case you have to scroll down
once for a given page, then all you miss out
on is the [blank] top "margin" - with the
content remaining intact).
Curtis Clark
>Uh, that's a feature, not a bug!
>Note that, on the plus side, you never have to
>scroll vertically (unless you're on a 640x480
>display, in which case you have to scroll down
>once for a given page, then all you miss out
>on is the [blank] top "margin" - with the
>content remaining intact).
And if you have one of those cool Microsoft mice with the horizontal scroll
wheel, it's even faster!
--
Curtis Clark http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark/
Biological Sciences Department Voice: (909) 869-4062
California State Polytechnic University FAX: (909) 869-4078
Pomona CA 91768-4032 USA jcc...@csupomona.edu
Roy Preston
Hrant. My first reaction was, thank god it's quick! Then, how *refreshing*
to find a clean site with type that's not only legible, but an actual
pleasure to read. The Daam Entity is highly original and well crafted.
Individual character shapes are sensuous and sexy -- Crystaal being the
most legible of the three. I don't have the Shockwave plug-in, but I'd very
much like the opportunity to navigate quickly through the family without
having to return to Home each time.
I will pay a return visit at the weekend.
Roy P(helicitations)
Gary Munch
>> At 08:56 AM 6/13/2000 -0700, Hrant Papazian wrote:
>> >http://www.themicrofoundry.com
>>
>> I'd get rid of the tag you have in your <HEAD> there...
>> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
>> ...because it's not all that necessary, really, and it *will* break older
>> browsers.
>
>Please, don't ! There *are* people who browse
>with different default charsets and it's a pain
>to manually switch when you get funny-looking text...
>I've spent countless hours trying to convince
>people to use charset=iso-8859-7 here in Greece.
Yes, and also I think iso 8859-1 doesn't include “ or ” as being
defined as anything; those are WIndows' decimal positions. As nice as real
quotes are, " and ' are sure to work. There may be a time when
<quote>this</quote> works to get langage-dependent quoting styles
(guillmets &c.) but that's not here yet. Until then, it's up to browser
error detection to correct the quotes -- and error detection may fail
someday.
Also, Hrant, you could cut the <font color="rrggbb"> tags, since they
merely repeat the text="rrggbb" attribute value; and essential text
shouldn't be given a local color lest it conflict/equal with the user's
default background color.
Oh, a doctype would be good too.
Otherwise, nice, though I'll need to get the Shockwave plugin for iCab (the
gifs show OK). Haven't tried w/ JavaScript off.
Good debut,
Gary
Hrant Papazian
>you could cut the <font color="rrggbb"> tags
But doesn't that provide an extra level of control,
in terms of over-riding user prefs? I know you don't
like that yourself - but I'm just wondering: are such
tags completely redundant no matter what?
>Otherwise, nice
Thanks!
>Haven't tried w/ JavaScript off.
According to Aftershock, it should fall
back to the [animated] GIF no matter what.
Dean Allen
> >require scrolling
>Hrant:
>Uh, that's a feature, not a bug!
Have to say I react quite violently to sites that
require horizontal scrolling. If I'm at the keyboard
and have to go grab the mouse and locate the scroll
bar tab and drag sideways, there better be gold over
there - like, say, a photo of Nicole Kidman tattooing
"Dean Allen Forever" on her backside - or I'm gone,
and unlikely to come back.
Not as bad as auto-resizing windows, Geocities ads,
"Starting the Java VM" notices, egregious mouseovers,
or that cancer on the web called Flash, but still
it's a pain.
Any reason why you're not using CSS? That bold
Georgia is just gasping for some lead.
Otherwise, v. pretty &c.. Congrats!
--
Dean Allen
Martin Schröder
> Opinions of any shape, size and color highly welcome.
Technical:
- correct the HTML error validator.w3.org complains about
- use Bobby (http://www.cast.org/bobby/) to check the
accessibility of the pages
- the Flash things don't work although I got the newest
plugin (Suse 6.1/Netscape 4.73) -- you're testing for director,
it seems
- could you switch to CSS?
Layout:
- the vertical layout is unusal and needs too much scrolling
Best regards
Martin
--
Martin Schröder, M...@ArtCom-GmbH.DE
ArtCom GmbH, Grazer Straße 8, D-28359 Bremen
Voice +49 421 20419-44 / Fax +49 421 20419-10
Gerhard Kordmann
>
>Opinions of any shape, size and color highly welcome.
>
Pleasant to look at, readable enough for on screen text. And you
seem to take care of simpler browsers: Opera without flash or
animated gifs still shows a clean layout. The flash part is
cool for the input. I'd prefer a complete type display though,
without having to click and drag. I may have to scroll my browser
window then on a small screen, but that's a smoother operation.
The horizontal layout is unusual. It works, but what are the
benefits? Beyond the famous Papazian spirit to never miss an
experiment, of course :)
Slight drawback: the black links in burgundy text are difficult
to spot. On my first browse I didn't find the links to the font
specimens.
Gerhard
_________________________________________________________________
gerhar...@gmx.de
Hrant Papazian
>>http://www.themicrofoundry.com
>Pleasant to look at, readable enough
Thanks!
>I'd prefer a complete type display though,
>without having to click and drag.
I did consider that, but realized that the Schockwave window
would have to vary in width, and might also become too wide
for "safety". This way, the movie is compact, and can be
moved to other sites/media with little headache.
The nice thing about Schockwave is that I can add tons
of text (at various sizes) with minimal impact to download
time/size, since the font is stored as vectors. So trying
to avoid "internal" scrolling would backfire, I think.
>The horizontal layout is unusual.
>It works, but what are the benefits?
In order of priority:
1. Horizontal is more natural/immersive for humans. I think
that after the initial awkwardness, a horizonal site is
more pleasurable to use.
2. The whole "mindframe" of type (except for some non-Latin
scripts) is horizontal. The type specimens, for example,
had to be horizontal, and there really was little reason
for me to use the vertical format (which is followed like
a religion on the web, sadly enough) for the site itself.
3. It's gets attention, stays in your head, and generates
discussion. Like you're seeing now! :-> Sure, that's
not the most noble reason, but captivation is part of
design - and I would have honestly gone horizontal
even without this advantage.
>the black links in burgundy text are difficult to spot.
Hmmm, I agree.
Unfortunately, the next lighter websafe burgundy is
too light. But doesn't the underline make it obvious?
Barbara Beeton
>>http://www.themicrofoundry.com
>Pleasant to look at, readable enough
i agree with this. very attractive.
>I'd prefer a complete type display though,
>without having to click and drag.
well, i also found the width a bit disconcerting, but i had a
different experience shifting to the right. i'm on windows nt,
and tried with both ie4 and netscape 4.
ie: the right-pointing arrow scrolled nicely to the right.
definitely preferable to mouse.
netscape: first time, had to click and drag, but when i dropped
out and re-entered, the right-pointing arrow worked. (don't
know what it is, but i seem to be afflicted with nonrepeatability.
this is endemic. i should have gotten a career as a destructive
tester.)
for both, after i went down a level, when coming back the
window was repositioned again at the far left. fie.
hrant:
... the Schockwave window ...
don't have shockwave installed. (and probably won't, as it
would mean that the local sysadmins would cease being responsible
for maintenance of this thing. since most of what i do is on a
unix box through x-windows, this makes a big difference to me.)
ie won't show anything in the example windows.
netscape wouldn't at first, but on the second try it loaded the
windows as static gifs, with the notation at the top "no shockwave?".
that's not ideal, but a whole lot better than the ie result.
i'll buy hrant's reasoning for the horizontal arrangement, but
just wish that it didn't insist on resetting to the left-hand
edge every time on the return.
oh, the area covered by the "down triangles" is pretty small, and
sometimes it took more than one click to get the next window.
would you consider making the covered area just a bit larger?
gerhard:
>the black links in burgundy text are difficult to spot.
hrant:
Hmmm, I agree.
Unfortunately, the next lighter websafe burgundy is
too light. But doesn't the underline make it obvious?
what underline? no underline for me in ie, although there is
one in netscape. also in netscape, the black text seems to be
bolder than in ie; i may have the preferences set differently
to account for no underlining, but i know i haven't asked for
anything special to be done with text, so i can't account for
the boldness. anyhow, i agree with gerhard that (at least in ie)
the black links aren't really obvious.
when linking to another site, i like it that a new window comes
up. however, with netscape, it exactly covers the original window,
which is confusing; with ie, the new window is offset. i guess
this may be a matter of setting preferences, so i'll have to
explore.
i have a co-worker who is armenian; i'll be sending her to the
site to look at the armenian fonts. i do like them, although
i'm certainly not literate in armenian.
-- bb
Dean Allen
>
>>The horizontal layout is unusual.
>>It works, but what are the benefits?
>
>In order of priority:
>1. Horizontal is more natural/immersive for humans. I think
> that after the initial awkwardness, a horizonal site is
> more pleasurable to use.
The complete and utter dearth of them on the Web seals yer
point, there Hrant. :-)
>2. The whole "mindframe" of type (except for some non-Latin
> scripts) is horizontal. The type specimens, for example,
> had to be horizontal, and there really was little reason
> for me to use the vertical format (which is followed like
> a religion on the web, sadly enough) for the site itself.
The whole "mindframe" of reading is vertical: start at the
top, leave at the bottom, move on. Moving to another page
or column feels perfectly natural, but moving sideways on
a webpage is, to me, completely counterintuitive.
On the three current browsers for the Mac, there's no way
to move sideways without zeroing in on the scrollbar - a
tiny part of the screen.
To scroll down, one can use the tab key, space bar, arrow
keys, mouse wheel (if you're me 'n Roy P, with our
DeathStar IntelliMice) or the blessed scroll bars.
>3. It's gets attention, stays in your head, and generates
> discussion. Like you're seeing now! :-> Sure, that's
> not the most noble reason, but captivation is part of
> design - and I would have honestly gone horizontal
> even without this advantage.
I'm convinced that gravity influences websites as much as
it does text in print. Something hanging off to the side
looks precarious without support underneath (see the word
"arrow" in my previous graf).
And whenever it seems there ought to be more than is
visible, my instinct is to proceed down the page, or look
for a link to take me elsewhere.
> >the black links in burgundy text are difficult to spot.
>
>Hmmm, I agree.
>Unfortunately, the next lighter websafe burgundy is
>too light. But doesn't the underline make it obvious?
Many, many users turn off "underline links" in their prefs.
One of the pains of being a book designer these days is
the insistence of publishers that some books "make sense"
in a horizontal format, wider than tall. Most of those in a
position to make such decisions had their creative heydays
back in the 70s, when different for the sake of difference
seems to have ruled the design of books.
This wackiness is in total disregard of the fact that wide
books are murder to read: gravity tugs down on the spine,
constantly pulling the book out of the hands. Tschichold
has a much better rant on this in The Form of The Book,
nonetheless it points to a larger issue which ought to be
vital to anyone arranging words: don't design things that
are meant to be looked at, design things meant to be read.
--
Dean Allen
Hrant Papazian
>>http://www.themicrofoundry.com
>very attractive.
Thank you!
>after i went down a level, when coming back the
>window was repositioned again at the far left.
Yeah... :-(
I think that can be fixed, actually.
>don't have shockwave installed.
You would be in the same bind with
Flash, right? Or do you have that?
>ie won't show anything in the example windows.
Hmmm.
>netscape wouldn't at first, but on the second try
>it loaded the windows as static gifs, with the
>notation at the top "no shockwave?".
It seems animated GIFs don't work for you either: the image is
supposed to including a small flashing label (three flashes only,
relax :-) that says "NO SHOCKWAVE", in the top right corner,
just below the HTML "No Shockwave?" link.
>would you consider making the covered area just a bit larger?
Good idea.
>the black links aren't really obvious.
Hmmm.
>i have a co-worker who is armenian; i'll be sending
>her to the site to look at the armenian fonts.
Cool - thanks.
>i'm certainly not literate in armenian.
But -if you had Shockwave- you could still type
in Armenian (and Georgian), and kind of make sense:
The keyboard is arranged phonetically (well, as much
as possible), so you can type your name for example
and see it in Armenian. But you have to account for
spelling: so "Barbara" would work fine, but "John"
would have to be typed "Jon".
Anyway, thanks for the super feedback.
Hrant Papazian
>The complete and utter dearth of them on
>the Web seals yer point, there Hrant. :-)
Or makes another:
That web design is still an immature, insecure field.
BTW, there *are* a few horizontal sites - but way too few.
The only major one is by the French Metro.
I'm not saying that horizontal sites are categorically
"superior" to vertical ones, not at all. Just that they
deserve more consideration than they've gotten.
>On the three current browsers for the Mac, there's no way
>to move sideways without zeroing in on the scrollbar
On IE4.5 and NS4.6 the left/write scroll keys work just fine.
However, I totally agree that vertical scrolling is easier
in the overall - no question about that. But I sacrificed
it for things I consider more important *in this context*,
and only one of those involves sensationalism.
>Something hanging off to the side looks precarious
Or inviting - like fruit on a tree.
>my instinct is to proceed down the page
That's not instinct, that's conditioning - and it's malleable.
>don't design things that are meant to be
>looked at, design things meant to be read.
But [most of] the paragraphs one my site
are "self-contained": they don't involve
continuous reading.
The thing is, ideally, you *balance* the appearance
(the surface) and the readability (the content), no?
And every situation needs a different balance.
A woodpulp & ink novel is a very different
animal than a website that promotes type.
Adam Twardoch (List)
> Please, don't ! There *are* people who browse
> with different default charsets and it's a pain
> to manually switch when you get funny-looking text...
> I've spent countless hours trying to convince
> people to use charset=iso-8859-7 here in Greece.
Yes yes yes! Hrant, as your site _is_ multilingual even that it's in
English, you should definitely leave the META specs as they are.
For Poles using a default setting of ISO Latin-2, or Russians with CP 1251
and KOI 8-R being the most popular default web codepages, manually switching
to ISO Latin-1 is annoying.
Adam
Roy Preston
weights in a family? It's now pretty accepted that most typefaces come in
various weights rather than styles or variations. Don't get me wrong, I
like it, but I wonder how it started?
Roy P(lain)
Barbara Beeton
i thought that was an old term. no?
there are several axes/variations, and weight describes only one
of them. width is another (compressed, condensed, extended,
expanded); slope is usually either yes or no; italic is a shape
variation. the terms bold and light were certainly used to
describe metal type, so they predate electronic and photo processes.
but i haven't been able to put a date on the term "weight".
-- bb
andy crewdson
>roy asks,
> Here's a question that occurred to me this afternoon: Why do we have
> weights in a family? It's now pretty accepted that most typefaces come in
> various weights rather than styles or variations. Don't get me wrong, I
> like it, but I wonder how it started?
Well, I do know that ATF (and maybe specifically M.F. Benton) are credited
with devising the "type family" system in the early 1900s. But I'd bet the
idea of weight classification predates this development by quite a bit.
andy
Roy Preston
Roman Inscriptional Capital?
Roy P
Roy Preston
That's the tack!
Roy P(andy)
Kent Lew
>weights in a family? It's now pretty accepted that most typefaces come in
>various weights rather than styles or variations. Don't get me wrong, I
>like it, but I wonder how it started?
>
Roy --
I'm not sure how accurate this is, but...
I believe that the concept of boldface type originated in the nineteenth
century during the Industrial Revolution in the context of advertising.
Early boldfaces were primarily Clarendons, Egyptians/Slab serifs, and
Gothics/Grotesques/Sans Serifs.
I think the concept of organizing different weights into families came
about around the time the ATF was formed from several smaller foundries in
the U.S. -- turn of the 20th century. The myriad fonts from the various
foundries had to be sorted and organized. I can't remember who the task
fell to -- Morris Fuller Benton? I believe that's where the idea of
combining similar designs of various weights and widths into so-called
families was born. Perhaps it was Henry Lewis Bullen, the advertising
manager who masterminded the promotion of ATF types. Again, this applied
initially mostly to jobbing faces, not book types.
A bit later (1930s?) typeface designs began to be actually conceived in the
context of families with related weights. I think that Cheltenham or
Century might have been one of the first romans actually *designed* as a
full family of weights and styles.
The large families that we commonly find today -- roman, semibold, bold,
black, with corresponding italics -- found further codification in the work
of the ITC, ca. 1970s.
I pulled all this pretty much out of my head. I tried to find a published
source to cite for you, but I couldn't find one on my shelves. I'm sure
others will amend or correct my account.
-- Kent.
--
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Kent Lew, Design & Illustration
Washington, MA 01223-9796 USA
413/623-0212 voice/fax
Online Portfolio = http://www.kentlew.com/
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Dave Nalle
which were involved in producing cheap font CD compilations about 5
years ago? We've just discovered that they pirated a number of our
fonts and I was wondering if they were still in business or if there
was any way to track down those responsible.
Dave
--
Scriptorium Fonts: http://www.fontcraft.com
Ragnarok Press: http://www.ragnarokpress.com
Customer Support: 1-800-797-8973
michaellynch
Walt
Walt
-~
Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it
every six months.
-- Oscar Wilde
Dave Nalle
A customer had one of their products and noticed a font which was
identical to one of ours and mentioned it to us. Happens far too
often.
Dave Nalle
It looks like those are the guys, but their site is virtually
impenetrable and there's no indication that they still sell any font
products.
Thanks
Ramsey Margolis
> >
> >http://www.wizworks.com/
>
> It looks like those are the guys, but their site is virtually
> impenetrable and there's no indication that they still sell any font
> products.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave
Yes there is. They bundle 300 trutype fonts with their page layout program.
Ramsey Margolis
--
___________________________________________________________________
redactor / 3-5-3-1 : copywriting + editing + typography + design
1/46a britannia street . petone . lower hutt 6008 . new zealand
email 35...@bigfoot.com . phone +64(0)21 211 3531 & +64(0)4 970 3531
Robin Kinross
>Here's a question that occurred to me this afternoon: Why do we have
>weights in a family? It's now pretty accepted that most typefaces come in
>various weights rather than styles or variations. Don't get me wrong, I
>like it, but I wonder how it started?
My impression is that 'bold' face was the first of the family additions.
See for example:
Michael Twyman, 'The bold idea: the use of bold-looking types in the
nineteenth century', *Journal of the Printing History Society*, no.22,
1993, pp.107-43
He starts his story with the ancient Egyptians, moves through early
printing, nineteenth-century posters, to 'clarendons'... By the way, that
number of the JPHS also has: Margaret M Smith: 'The pre-history of "small
caps": from all caps to smaller capitals to small caps' (pp.54-79).
Maybe: we use the English term 'weight' to talk about the whole spectrum of
stroke-thickness-variation as a hangover from the days when it only went in
one direction - from (what became known as) medium/regular to heavier.
RK
Roy Preston
their logo?
Roy P(robing)
Roy Preston
Interesting replies! Unfortunately, I don't have access to Robin's refs; bb
provides her regular succinct appraisal; Kent's head is a veritable
cornucopia of typographic info; Lovely analogy, Michael! And is that a
tongue in your cheek, Laurence;-)
Weight, as applied to type, is subjective and imprecise, isn't it. When
does Book become Regular, and Regular become Medium? Is Times Ultra Black
Condensed still Times, or has it morphed beyond the *real* essence of
Times? Questions, questions, questions. . .
Roy P(hilosophical rhetoric)
Roy Preston
My very good friend, Michael ('Mike' to his bicycling friends -- wink,
wink, nudge, nudge, say no more;-) Harvey, has a new typeface:
http://www.finefonts.com/aesopsample.html
Very, very tasty I think you'll agree -- look at that 'g'!! (the website is
unfinished , as you can see)
Roy P(roud to have been taught by him;-)
andy crewdson
That 'A' in the logo is really very funny with its schizophrenic
bracketing, as Kent pointed out. Walking past a Gap on the way to school
everyday for the past two years, you'd think I'd have noticed it long ago.
Now I'll never be able to not notice it.
http://www.dieneuetypographie.com/gap.html
. . .
Seeing the latest Greenaway absurdity, _8 1/2 Women_, I was reminded of
Robin Kinross's assertion* about why type designers like Greenaway. Though
most of the movie was pretty hard to take (as one would expect), one
interesting thing was the way type was featured prominently throughout the
film. Unfortunately, except for the opening sequence (Helvetica), Palatino
was the only face used.
* http://avoca.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9912&L=typo-l&P=R11025
andy
Ron Koster
>http://www.dieneuetypographie.com/gap.html
And what's this...
http://www.dieneuetypographie.com/
...all about, Andy? Loved the sp-ligature, too -- did you fake it, or if
not, what font is that (and pardon my naivete to be able to tell just by
looking at it).
Ron 8?
The naked truth about me is to the naked truth about Salvador Dali
as an old ukulele in the attic is to a piano in a tree, and I mean
a piano with breasts. --James Thurber
Allow me to introduce my selves... http://www.psymon.com
Digital art, dreams & fantasies... http://www.psymon.com/art/
andy crewdson
>looking at it).
It's JFP's Le Monde Livre Classic (alternate).
andy
Gary Munch
>Roman Inscriptional Capital?
Well, if a broad pen is used for large work, it will make a light letter;
if the same pen (or brush, of course) is used for smaller work, it will be
darker. The reality of Bold has always been around, though it might not be
expressed as a concept. Typically, written letters will be, as you know,
from 5 to 10+ penwidths tall. The Virgil MS has about IIRC 6; Trajan, about
10. Any taller and the forms are more difficult to manage; the counters
aren't as easy to form.
I've always imagined that the idea of a Bold weight came from printers and
their customers finding that the pages from old, beaten, (maybe slightly
soft) type were darker and denser than those from type newly arrived in the
shop; compose a page with each and the older would look bolder. Maintain
one old font case for dark text, newer font cases for lighter text. Dis
accordingly. Apply to foundry for pre-smashed type as needed.
G.
ibbetson
>I've always imagined that the idea of a Bold weight came from printers and
>their customers finding that the pages from old, beaten, (maybe slightly
>soft) type were darker and denser than those from type newly arrived in the
>shop; compose a page with each and the older would look bolder. Maintain
>one old font case for dark text, newer font cases for lighter text. Dis
>accordingly. Apply to foundry for pre-smashed type as needed.
I remember a copy of a manual that I'd revised arriving with the revisions
much lighter than the original text. I was new and green, and it took me
some time to realise that the standing type had worn. Later I saw the
shelves of standing type. This was in the 1960s.
David ib
David Ibbetson * 133 Wilton Street * Unit 506 * Toronto M5A 4A4
mailto:ibbe...@idirect.com
Phone:(416)363-6692 Cel:(416)831-6692 Fax:(416)363-4987
Rolf F. Rehe
>>I've always imagined that the idea of a Bold weight came from printers and
>>their customers finding that the pages from old, beaten, (maybe slightly
>>soft) type were darker and denser than those from type newly arrived in the
>>shop; compose a page with each and the older would look bolder. Maintain
>>one old font case for dark text, newer font cases for lighter text. Dis
>>accordingly. Apply to foundry for pre-smashed type as needed.
>
>I remember a copy of a manual that I'd revised arriving with the revisions
>much lighter than the original text. I was new and green, and it took me
>some time to realise that the standing type had worn. Later I saw the
>shelves of standing type. This was in the 1960s.
>
>David ib
That sort of thing doesn't seem to be restricted to metal type stuff.
I have seen printed material where one could clearly detect revisions
in the text because that type was lighter. Chemical mix, I think, had
something to do with it. Whatever the cause - I think it's sloppy
work and should not happen in a quality product.
Rolf
Design Research International
- Quality and Innovation -
e-mail: re...@rehedesign.com
Web site: www.rehedesign.com
Gary Munch
>>>their customers finding that the pages from old, beaten, (maybe slightly
>>>soft) type
>>much lighter than the original text. I was new and green, and it took me
>>some time to realise that the standing type had worn. Later I saw the
>>shelves of standing type. This was in the 1960s.
>>
>>David ib
Chemical mix, I think, had
>something to do with it. Whatever the cause - I think it's sloppy
>work and should not happen in a quality product.
>
>Rolf
Yes, sloppy, unless carefully segregated by wear with metal, or focus or
chem. with photo, or different output devices, or bad paste-up. It still
happens, I suppose, but with computerized revision and its ability to
copyfit, is this such a problem anymore.
I do wonder if there are any records of anyone consciously separating type
by wear, before the introduction of true Bolds. (someone else do the
research please :-)
Gary
Gary Munch
gmu...@pipeline.com
http://members.aol.com/munchfonts/
Type & Type Design
Rolf F. Rehe
>chem. with photo, or different output devices, or bad paste-up. It still
>happens, I suppose, but with computerized revision and its ability to
>copyfit, is this such a problem anymore.
>I do wonder if there are any records of anyone consciously separating type
>by wear, before the introduction of true Bolds. (someone else do the
>research please :-)
>Gary
To me it seems questionable that bold variations of fonts would have
originated from worn out sorts. But I have no way of knowing it for
sure.
Having worked with metal type in composing rooms in Germany and the
U.S., (I know I don't look that old) I can offer these observations:
In Germany, at least in one plant that had a composing room catering
to both the newspaper and to job printing ('Akzidenzen'), a strict
separation between the fonts used for the paper and those for the
other jobs was made. The newspaper fonts would wear out quickly but
would be used in a somewhat poor state for a while still. Paper mats
needed for the stereotypes were made in special pressure presses from
the type forms and as a result the letters became 'rounded' quickly.
Fonts used for job printing had much less wear and tear and remained
sharp for a long time. These 'good' fonts were never to be used on
the newspaper side to prevent them from becoming worn out quickly.
Generally speaking, in Germany and the U.S., badly worn out or
damaged letters made it to the 'hell box', a collection of no longer
usable type. Now and then sorts, that is a small quantity of a font,
would be ordered to refurbish the reduced amount of type in the type
cases.
Gary Munch
>originated from worn out sorts. But I have no way of knowing it for
>sure.
The newspaper fonts would wear out quickly but
>would be used in a somewhat poor state for a while still.
>Fonts used for job printing had much less wear and tear and remained
>sharp for a long time. These 'good' fonts were never to be used on
>the newspaper side to prevent them from becoming worn out quickly.
Well, Rolf, now there's one data point in the tale. But by your time, such
separation was a standardized procedure, I expect, whereas decades &
centuries earlier it may (and I speculate here, you understand) not have
been as typical.
Now to find some data points from early to late 1800s. Not many setters
around from then, I fear.
Gary
arthur
I need help in identifying the mastheads of Madison magazine from New York
and a magazine from Sweden called "Stockholm News".
The type used in Stockholm New is Caslon but I'm wondering which version is
it and or is it a specially drawn version of Caslon.
You can have a look at Stockholm New here. It's a very well designed
magazine.
www.stockholmnew.com
PS the Madison I'm referring to is not the one at www.madisonmag.com
Thank you
Arthur Chan
Singapore
Kent Lew
>The type used in Stockholm New is Caslon but I'm wondering which version is
>it and or is it a specially drawn version of Caslon.
>You can have a look at Stockholm New here. It's a very well designed
>magazine.
>www.stockholmnew.com
Looks like Matthew Carter's Big Caslon to me.
http://www.fontbureau.com/specimens/bigcaslon.html
Dean Allen
We have a winner. Lock and load, take aim at your
monitor, blammedy-blam.
--
Dean Allen