The Whiz-Bang apprioach to everything
Robert W. Montgomery, Ph.D.
By casting this discussion and debate as "attacks" Ken Stephens has
demonstrated that his position is inflexible and not open to reason or
debate on the issue of changes in the Behavior Analysis listserv or
"Community".
As I said to Joe (Plaud), whom I have known for years and who knows that I
am no technophobe, simply because its more complicated and "hi-tech"
doesn't mean its better. The telephone company(ies) has(ve) had
video-telephone technology since the mid-60's (yes the mid 1960's) that
worked reasonably well and has(ve) tried on no fewer than 5 occasions to
market this technology (or variants as it has improved over time)
vigorously. How many people have videophones? Almost none. Why? With
Joe and Ken Stephens arguments everyone SHOULD have it because its better
and the hi-tech gurus think it is nifty. Won't being able to see the
person with whom you are communicating improve the range of information
you are able to convey by adding visual with auditory signals? The
theoretical advantages remain theoretical because the users have voted by
not using the technology.
As for cookies: I develop web sites for professional groups (as a hobby)
and I HATE (yes I know I am shouting) cookies and see no use for them on a
NON-COMMERCIAL site whatsoever. Yes, they can help automate log in. They
also help keep track of where on the web you have been since your last
visit, what equipment you are using, and other pieces of information that
I find it hard to understand why a professional web site would need to
collect. For those sites like the New and Improved Behavior Analysis site
that require you to use cookies I routinely delete them immediately
following my visit (which is a pain). In this case, after having visited,
I see no real advantage to this format (those messages in a thread that I
was following were routinely kept in a separate file if I wanted to
reference them later which was easier than the new and improved version)
other than knowing who on the list is logged onto the site at the same
time. For those wishing "real-time" chats this a big advantage. I
prefer to read messages, reflect on them, perhaps temper my response, and
then compose a response, and so this "real-time" chat which is so popular
in some circles holds no fascination for me.
As for the Bio information -that Joe and Ken Stephens are excited about -
I have always graded tests and papers for my students via Social Security
number because I don't care a whit who wrote something but merely about
the quality of the content. I have seen BIG Names in BA write REALLY
uninformed things on the list in the past 5 years and during that same
period seen brilliant posts from students. So, the Bio feature of the New
and Improved service may be a nice networking feature to enhance the
old-boy network but it does nothing to alter how I will evaluate the
content of posts - actually it will interfere if I use it because the WHO
may indirectly overshadow the CONTENT which in my opinion is a terrible
thing to allow.
Just the opinions of a 5 year resident of Joe's old listserv who has
developed a website or two here and there,
Robert Montgomery
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354 Message:00354 354
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Date: 8/9/99 13:28 -0800
From: "Ken Stephens" <webboa...@virtualcommunity.org> via the web
Subject: A vision of behavioral community
Mixed in with the congratulations and encouragement we've received from som=
e
in the
community (much appreciated!), there has also been criticism of the
migration of Behav-An to the Behavioral Virtual Community, particularly
vocal from two or three individuals. Two common themes in this criticism
have been "it wasn’t broke, so why did you fix it?" and "the software you
chose is deficient."
1. The first theme seems to imply that the ListServ-based Behav-An is the
ultimate tool
for the discussion. We don't need anything else. We're already fluent wit=
h
this medium.
A new tool will require adaptation and new learning. We don't need any new
features to
support the kind of discourse we've had. It's not broke - don't fix it.
I recognize that to argue against that logic is to present myself as a
target for more of
the same criticism. But I've found that whether or not I speak up, the
attacks continue. Some people have already formed an opinion (and are
prepared to "vote with their feet") but perhaps others have not. I think I
should try again to communicate a vision that I and others at the Cambridge
Center have of the future of the behavioral community on-line.
But before I do that and you think it might be just my peculiar fantasy, le=
t
me point you
to a literature you may not be aware of, much of it easily accessible and
on-line:
a. http://thinkofit.com/webconf/wcfuture.htm "The future of web
conferencing" by David
Woolley.
b. http://werple.net.au/~dwalker/front10.htm Lighthouse on the Web
c. http://www.wellengaged.com/ Wellengaged (from some of the people behind
The Well, the
granddaddy of virtual communities)
d. http://www.well.com/user/hlr/vcbook/index.html The Virtual Community,
by Howard
Rheingold (long-time The Well member)
e. Net Gain, by Hagel and Armstrong.
Related and relevant: the early literature on hypertext, by Doug Englebart
and Ted Nelson, among others. Much of the rest of the literature I'm
talking about can be found in the Proceedings of various conferences of the
ACM SIGCHI (computer-human interaction) and the Human Factors Society. Not
necessarily non-behavioral, although we've not done enough to influence
those fields yet.
And, in case you haven't noticed, there are "virtual communities" sprouting
up all over the web (just do a simple search on Alta Vista and you'll see
page after page of URLs). We see all this behavior and development of place=
s
on-line that go beyond e-mail based list communication. Why? There must b=
e
a source of reinforcement there to induce so many to adopt web-based
technology for their communities. I'm sure they had their Luddites too, bu=
t
they've found something beyond e-mail. I don't think the argument is simpl=
y
"if it ain't broke, don't fix it." I think we have to step back and ask
"can we do better?"
I'm convinced that the tools available on the Web answer that question with
a resounding "yes."
Woolley (see above) lists several advantages of web-based conferencing over
e-mail:
a) Context. Threading of topics helps keep the "big picture" in
discussions, rather than
focusing only on the last message.
b) Selective reading. I'm personally put off by getting e-mail that I don'=
t
want to read. It's in the same category as spam, as it weakens the stimulus
control I need to maintain to react to messages that are more relevant to m=
y
current projects.
c) Heavy traffic. It's why I have unsubscribed from lists before, and it'=
s
probably why people react so angrily to misplaced unsubscribe notes that
shouldn't go to the whole group.
d) Sense of "place" as the operational metaphor, rather than a sequential
message stream. You can easily put other resources at that place.
The CCBS vision for a Behavioral Virtual Community can be found on
www.behavior.org in the Virtual Community section. We envision a rich
medium that combines the merits of e-mail communication with the many
resources available on the Web, to make the discourse less linear and more
interlinked. We have the tools to support collaborative work, and to allow
incorporation of images (e.g. for graphs and charts) and even video along
with text. Chat may or may not be important to this community -- we have it
and will watch usage and decide whether to enhance those capabilities. I
believe these will add value to the community; others seem absolutely
convinced we don't need anything but e-mail. Joe and others seem to be
looking to the future, others seem firmly tied by behavioral inertia to the
past.
2. The WebBoard software seems to be an issue. As I've said before, it's n=
o
t perfect. Betsy Constantine and I spent weeks reviewing the various
commercial products out there and this seems to be the best of the bunch.
We're counting on it evolving and we believe there will be better commercia=
l
alternatives in the future. The features available seem to us to merit
adopting it now because it does enable features that go beyond e-mail, whil=
e
preserving e-mail participation as an option.
Cookies: WebBoard uses cookies only to simplify the login process if you
want to
participate via the Web interface. If you continue participating by e-mail=
,
they're not
an issue. Most professional web developers who spend most of our working
day connected to the Internet don't share the fear that some have about
cookies, but if you want to be cautious, it's easy to have your browser ask
you if you want to accept a cookie or not.
Logins and user accounts as opposed to open participation via e-mail. By
maintaining user profiles, we make it possible for members of the community
to find out more about each other. In your user profile, you can store
information about your interests,
affiliations, educational background, current research or work, etc. If
others have provided this information too, you have a better idea who you'r=
e
dealing with and your verbal behavior can be more discriminative. Cookies
minimize the response cost of doing things that way by skipping a step at
login.
There are features of WebBoard that I don't like very much, but I think on
the whole it
represents an improvement which I can learn to live with. I hope the
members of Behav-An
feel the same way. I recognize that some people will "vote with their
feet," so they don't have to learn something new. For
those who stay, these are the beginning of exciting times! The tools that
are enhancing
other communities are now going to be available to you; that's our
commitment.
Ken Stephens
To reply: mailto:behav-...@www.virtualcommunity.org
---------------------------------------------
Behav-An, the original and premier Internet site for behavior analysis has moved to the
Behavioral Virtual Community (BVC) of the Cambridge Center for Behavioral Studies.
To join Behav-An, please go to: http://www.virtualcommunity.org:8080/~behav-an
and sign up as a new member on the Login Page.
What do I do on the Login Page?
There are three options presented: GUEST- this is an easy way to see
what's going on in BVC, without actually participating. But don't be a
"lurker!" BVC is a friendly place, and we welcome your participation. In
fact, it won't be the same without it. Don't be intimidated by posts by
names you recognize- even senior behavior analysts tend to be
approachable, particularly if you have something interesting to
contribute. When you click the Guest button, you will be taken to the main
BVC display. NEW USERS- this is what you want right now. Clicking on this
button will take you to a New User Information screen, where you will be
asked to enter certain basic information about yourself, as well as to
choose a Login name and a Password (don't forget to enter it twice to
confirm it!). You will also have a choice to make to "use frames" or not-
we recommend you use frames so that you can always see the list of
conferences in the left frame while other content is swapped in and out of
the right frame. Your Login name has to be unique, so don't be surprised
if you are told that your first choice is already taken- just try again.
There is more information that you can add later (find out how) to fill
out your profile for the benefit of other BVC participants who might want
to know a little more about you, such as your background, training,
interests, and current work. NAME and PASSWORD Login- this is for users
who have already gone through the process of establishing a Login name and
password. Don't forget to click the box marked "remember my password." It
will save you the trouble of logging in every time. When you click on the
Enter button, you will be taken to the main BVC display.
Once you are logged in and join us at the BVC at the Cambridge Center, you
can set your options.
Most of the conferences of BVC will be set up to allow participation by
e-mail for those who prefer this mode instead of through the user
interface of a web browser. However, this capability isn't automatically
enabled for each individual, since most will probably prefer the richer
experience of dealing with BVC through the web.
Choose the Format
Edit Your Profile. Near the bottom are three mutually exclusive "radio
buttons" labeled Non-digest, Digest, and Digest / ZIPped. Non-digest -
each message from a conference in which you participate via mailing list
will show up individually. Digest-once a day, you will get a mail
message containing all traffic from the previous 24 hours for that
conference. Digest/ZIPped - like Digest, but smaller because it's ZIPped.
You have to unZIP it before you can read it, but the download will go
quicker.
After you make any changes, don't forget to SAVE your profile.
Mailing Lists
Choose More... and then choose Mailing Lists. You will see a list of all
conferences on the current virtual board. Beside each one is a checkbox.
Check the conferences you want to come to you via e-mail.
Replying to a Posting
This could be a source of confusion, so pay particular attention to this.
DO NOT try to reply by simply using the reply button on your e-mail
browser! True, this will send a reply to "Listserver" but it won't be
properly posted to BVC. In fact, it may be bounced back to you.
Notice that the e-mail you received from BVC Listserver and the way it is
formatted. At the bottom of the message (if there are multiple messages in
a digest, it will be the line before the next message starts), there is a
very specific e-mail address which contains the name of the mailing list
and the number of the post to which you are replying, e.g.
mailto:behav-...@www.virtualcommunity.org sends a reply to message 168
in the conference which has radicalbehaviorist as its mailing list. Reply
to that address ^ depending on what e-mail client you are using, it might
be as easy as clicking on the link that it makes for you out of this
mailto: address.
Posting a New Topic
In the previous example, we replied to a specific message in the
conference which has the radicalbehaviorist mailing list. If you want to
post a new message (start a new topic) in that conference, just send your
message to beha...@www.virtualcommunity.org You can always find the name
of the mailing list in other messages you've received from a particular
conference.
That's all there is to it. If you have any questions, please email me
directly at: joseph...@brown.edu or Ken Stephens at: k...@operant.com.
Our new web conferencing offers online Help for all major features,
and there is a list of Frequently Asked Questions. If you have
questions about a feature, look for the help button on the menubar
or read the FAQ. If you still can't figure it out, or if you have
trouble logging in the first time, send me an e-mail and I will
try to help.
We hope you join us at the Behavioral Virtual Community. Remember, just go to:
John W. Bush
| am no technophobe, simply because its more complicated and "hi-tech"
| doesn't mean its better. The telephone company(ies) has(ve) had
| video-telephone technology since the mid-60's (yes the mid 1960's) that
| worked reasonably well and has(ve) tried on no fewer than 5 occasions to
| market this technology (or variants as it has improved over time)
| vigorously. How many people have videophones? Almost none. Why? With
| Joe and Ken Stephens arguments everyone SHOULD have it because its better
| and the hi-tech gurus think it is nifty. Won't being able to see the
| person with whom you are communicating improve the range of information
| you are able to convey by adding visual with auditory signals? The
| theoretical advantages remain theoretical because the users have voted by
| not using the technology.
| As for cookies: I develop web sites for professional groups (as a hobby)
| and I HATE (yes I know I am shouting) cookies and see no use for them on a
| NON-COMMERCIAL site whatsoever. Yes, they can help automate log in. They
| also help keep track of where on the web you have been since your last
| visit, what equipment you are using, and other pieces of information that
| I find it hard to understand why a professional web site would need to
| collect. For those sites like the New and Improved Behavior Analysis site
| that require you to use cookies I routinely delete them immediately
John Eshleman
psy...@panther.Gsu.EDU writes:
<< As I said to Joe (Plaud), whom I have known for years and who
knows that I am no technophobe, simply because its more complicated
and "hi-tech" doesn't mean its better. The telephone company(ies)
has(ve) had video-telephone technology since the mid-60's (yes the
mid 1960's) that worked reasonably well and has(ve) tried on no fewer
than 5 occasions to market this technology (or variants as it has
improved over time) vigorously. How many people have videophones?
Almost none. Why? With Joe and Ken Stephens arguments
everyone SHOULD have it because its better and the hi-tech gurus
think it is nifty. >>
I remember the demonstration of videophones that formed a highlight
of the 1965 New York World's Fair. That technology's been around
for 35 years or more, and you're right, no one's using it.
But that same effect occurs across other fields, too.
For example, in the field of aviation there was a type of aircraft
invented by Vincent Justus Burnelli, which used a fuselage in the
shape of an airfoil, where the fuselage itself provided up to 50% of
the plane's lift. Burnelli invented that 50 to 60 years ago. But no
one has adopted them, and he failed at marketing them.
You can read about Burnelli aircraft at:
http://www.hit.fi/~vzvirbly/burnelli/index.htm
Oh well. If these spate of messages are "attacks," I'd hate to see
what I look like when I go into real attack mode! <grin> It's more
like frustration, though that doesn't explain the behavior either! If
I were a paying customer I'd be angry, but I'm not now nor have I
been ever since the Behav-An moved from the Pleistocene version
to the Holocene version. The web's a big place. There are multiple
websites pertinent to Behavior Analysis, and anyone of these could
use Microsoft Frontpage to slap on a webforum. There are other
forums, too.
There's the Standard Celeration list, which runs off The Ohio State
University system. Rick Kubina set that up.
There's the b2k (Behavior2000) list that Dave Feeney set up.
There's the Verbal Behavior SIG webforum that Bill Potter set up.
And those are just the one's I know about off hand. Some, such
as the Verbal Behavior webforum serve "niche" "markets" of
Behavior Analysis. Other's, such as b2K have a more general
application (though do not entirely or necessarily duplicate
Behav-An).
--JE
Joseph J. Plaud
>In a message dated 8/10/99 1:01:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>psy...@panther.Gsu.EDU writes:
>
><< As I said to Joe (Plaud), whom I have known for years and who
>knows that I am no technophobe, simply because its more complicated
Dear Robert and John,
Let me start by stating to you that I agree with you: bigger, more bells
and whistles doesn't necessarily make it better. But what in the world
does that aphorism have to do with Behav-An??
I know full well that you two are no technophobes, and actually as I
recall, John, you were one who was critical of the limited functionality of
the "old" listserv version of Behav-An, so what's up? I am sitting here
scratching my head in wonder at your posts these last weeks. The "new"
Behav-An is JUST LIKE the old one in terms of "listserv" like behavior, so
nothing has been lost. What we have are ADDITIONS for those who want to
take advantage of them. This argument is like a few persons moaning about
the "horseless carriage" --not that any of the participants were really
fond of using mules or horses for their journeys, but just wary of this
newfangled technology. Come on, guys. If you liked the "old" Behav-An,
just keep using the email version of Behav-An, don't ever go to the web
site and participate interactively if you don't want to. The bottom line
is the choice is yours. We are working to make the system as hassle free
as possible, but as with any technology, there will be a bit of time
needed. So, I ask you, be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
If we had totally abandoned an email version of Behav-An, then I could see
your point--but we haven't! Behav-An is still running as an email
forum. So again, I ask, what's up, guys??
One last thing. Please do not send any further responses to the
list...@nodak.edu. From now on I would very much appreciate all email
traffic going to beha...@www.virtualcommunity.org
Now, let's move onward and upward--whether that be via email or the
grandeur of interactive postings on the Behav-An BVC site. If you have
specific problems, email me personally and I will work with you to fix all
problems. As far as listmembers "voting with their feet" is concerned, I
am heartened by the increase in our list activity, and thank the 98%+ of
the almost 800 members of Behav-An who are logging on and into our network,
and productively using the resources "freely" available to them, as you
point out, John. For those of you who want to participate in that splinter
list Behavior2000 (which in light of its simplistic technologically should
be honestly named Behavior1986), go for it, there's plenty of room. I
don't want to herald the new millennium by taking a technological step
backwards, that is one reason why I am championing our move forwards, way
past the year 2000! As for me and my house, we will continue to frequent
the one, the original, the irreplaceable Behav-An!
Note that over 90% of the recent posts *I have made* to Behav-An since the
change have been done via email and not on the BVC interface itself (though
I visit our Behav-An web interface frequently). So, Behav-An continues to
have full email accessibility. Keep up the valiant efforts, Behav-Aners
out there. The best is truly yet to be!
Thank you,
Joe Plaud
Robert W. Montgomery, Ph.D.
> Can't you just set your browser to prompt you when a cookie's coming so
> you can take it or reject it?
John,
My browser has always been set to do so and when I rejected them at the
New and Improved BA site I was sent off to cyber hell and told that to
gain entry I would have to accept cookies from the site.
-Robert
Wesley Cannon
JWESH...@aol.com writes:
<< For example, in the field of aviation there was a type of aircraft
invented by Vincent Justus Burnelli, which used a fuselage in the
shape of an airfoil, where the fuselage itself provided up to 50% of
the plane's lift. Burnelli invented that 50 to 60 years ago. But no
one has adopted them, and he failed at marketing them.
>>
That's not exactly accurate. I don't know about Burnelli's version, but that
is one of the keys behind many of todays most advanced designs - the stealth,
the flying wing, the Blackbird, and the F22.