Kenjutsu dojo in UK
Kevin Harris
I have been studying Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu for almost 2 years
now in London but my instructor has now left the country.I know there isn't
another TSKSR in or around London but does anyone know of any other Koryu
style dojo in or around London.
Regards
Kevin Harris
Meik Skoss
>Can anyone help? I've been studying Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu for
almost two years now in London, but my instructor has left the country. I
know there is not another TSKSR in or around London, but does anyone know
of any other koryu style dojo in or around London?
??? I know it's said "there's no such thing as a dumb question," but this
one is pretty close to that, in my opinion. Assuming one belongs to a koryu
(by which I mean is *actually* a recognized student of the head of a system
or a legitimate instructor [as defined by the head of a particular ryu]),
students who are committed do not "go shopping" for another style as soon
as there is no dojo/instructor in the area. It's a very odd thing, at least
from the way most koryu exponents of my acquaintance look at how one
*ought* to view one's training.
Frankly, I think it's like the attitude some people have regarding the
piracy of music, films, or other published material via the Internet -- "It
doesn't hurt anybody; and if there is any damage, it only hurts the big
corporations, and they're filthy rich and can afford/deserve it, anyway."
Yeah, right. It's still theft, whether of published material or the trust
placed in one as a legitimate member of a legitimate ryu. Assuming, of
course, that a person is *truly* a member in the first place. The koryu are
a lot more than mere collections of technique. When one studies a ryu or
art, the physical teachings are only a portion of the transmission, be it a
classical or modern system. The ONLY way that one can *legitimately* begin
studying another system is: a) by gaining one's instructor's permission to
do so, and/or b) by resigning from one system and being formally accepted
by another.
There are some fuzzy situations. The most widely practised iaido ryu, Muso
Jikiden Eishin-ryu and Muso Shinden-ryu (they're really much the same), are
not usually taught as koryu. That is to say, absent an instructor with the
proper credentials (a menkyo of the older system of certification), it's
not a koryu transmission. Dan-i (grades, as awarded by ZenKenRen or
ZenIRen) and shogo (teaching licenses) are not the equivalent.
That's not to say that holders of dan-i and shogo are not at least as good
as menkyosha, just that they're not truly members of the complete
transmission of the art. Say what you will, but it just ain't so. One is
either a member of a ryu or one isn't.
In some cases, Shinto Muso-ryu for instance, one may study the complete
curriculum and still not be considered a "member of the ryu" unless 'n
until the individual has received an okuiri-sho from a menkyo kaiden. Then,
and only then, can one be considered to be a part of the tradition. That's
how it is defined by teachers of the system, notwithstanding dan-i and
shogo in the art of "jodo," which is an entirely different entity from the
koryu.
So, if a person thinks it's "okay" to go shopping around, switching brands
at one's convenience, best think again. It's like stealing -- just plain wrong.
Thanks for the soapbox.
Meik Skoss
Koryu Books
Koryu.com: http://koryu.com
Kim A Taylor
hell would you want to go shopping around for a koryu?". What would be the
point?
Sure there's some satisfaction with being a member of a small and
exclusive club but beyond that? You get what just happened to this fellow,
sensei moves away or dies and you've got nothing. "I was once a member of
the ancient order of groundhogs... but we didn't get any new blood into
the club and the old guys all died off so we closed up the hall".
If you want to be a member, fine, be a member with all that entails,
responsibilities much more than rights. You get to do whatever
sensei/soke/menkyo tells you and at his whim you're in or out. If you're
out, noplace else to go, you quit practicing or go looking for another
club to join (maybe the Muskox are pledging this year). Your training may
or may not be good, that, as always depends on the instructor and not on
the art. You may or may not get secret teachings, again depending on
whether or not the school's got 'em... but if they were all that good than
wouldn't they be bigger? Just a thought, just a thought.
Meik's right about the MJER/MSR being big and therefore losing the "koryu
system"... after all when an art gets too big for one person to control
it, it breaks apart and now you have, as Karl Friday so aptly put it a few
years ago, two, three or more koryu (lineages) instead of one, no matter
what you call it. The old koryu system was never much more than a dojo. It
just wasn't set up for widespread distribution like ikebana was it? So you
get more than one dojo and you get two koryu. What unifies MJER/MSR (as
much as it is unified) is its existance in larger organizations like the
IKF and ZNIR. Necessary since there are too many people practicing to stay
in the single-soke (essentially single dojo) situations. Now you get
multiple lineages all cooperating in a single organization. (OK stop
laughing, I'm talking theory here not what actually happens).
Shindo Muso-ryu seems to me to be in interesting times. It is just too big
in numbers to pretend it's a single koryu any more. There are multiple
menkyo holders around and there's no single unifying soke. You get pretty
much everyone at the top levels in the ZNKR, but several of the lines also
carrying on a parallel "koryu lineage" alongside the standard Dan
gradings. I suspect that like iaido it will get too big soon, the old
"headmasters" will retire and the new ones taking their place will be used
to the IKF organization, and the vast majority of those studying will be
simply IKF graded as the menkyo stop seeing the point of carrying on two
ranking systems.
Which brings me back to why a westerner would want to join a koryu. It's
got to be the next step in the neverending quest for that exotic hobby
that the martial arts has been since the 50s with the various waves of
popularity for judo, karate, kung fu, ninja, aikido, and now the sword
arts.
So you get the fakes and the opportunists and the followers and as usual
90 percent of those who join will drift away and some will actually find
something to keep them around for 20 years or so. Some guys will get some
press and form big groups but those will wither away, and as the fad
passes you'll get what was always there, a small core of enthusiasts that
were plugging away before the boom and are still there afterward.
But cripes, if you really want to learn about the sword, and you're in the
UK, you've got local, home-grown, legitimate 7 and 8dan folks in jodo,
iaido and kendo in the BKA! In Canada you've got the same in iaido and
kendo and a national kendo team that does pretty damned good each world
championships. If you want to learn the sword, why would you go looking
for something that even the Japanese don't find all that often?
Let's face it, the only reason you should ever end up learning the koryu
is if you happen to be living next door to soke. Anything else is, to be
perfectly honest with ourselves here, a waste of time. You aren't going to
learn it by commuting, you aren't going to be named soke or even menkyo
(unless sensei is really really desparate and you're the last man standing
in the club) unless you live in Japan for several decades. So what are you
doing?
I guess what I'm getting around to saying is that you should really look
around your own back yard and see what's there. Find the best teacher you
can and study hard. If you go looking to join a specific koryu that's
hundreds or thousands of miles away and you can only get to practice once
a month... or once a year as you make your yearly trip to Japan... than
what are you really going to learn?
Folks some of the kendo guys in Toronto practice for several hours every
day of the week. Now THAT's scary stuff. Think those guys worry about
"combat budo"? I know I'm not going to be able to do much against a kid
that can whack me hard on the head before I even start developing my
secret neverfail technique. These guys don't fall into traps, you twitch,
they hit you.
Want to learn sword? Go practice every night with a different sensei, each
of whom can kick your ass around the dojo.
Kim "too old er ok lazy for getting his ass kicked"
==========================================
Kim Taylor
mailto:kata...@ejmas.com
519-836-4357
44 Inkerman St
Guelph Ontario
Canada N1H 3C5
Join iaido-l: http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/archives/iaido-l.html
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~kataylor/
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/
http://ejmas.com/
http://sdksupplies.com/
http://kendo-canada.com/
Upcoming Seminars and Events 2003
June 21-22 Eastern Canadian Open Iaido Tourn. Montreal
July 17-20 Guelph School of Japanese Sword Arts
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/iai.gsjsa.htm
Oct 4-5 Ottawa iaido and jodo seminar
==========================================
Bill Mears
Yes, god forbid someone should aspire to study a different
style to the one they started with. After all it was only
good enough for various Japanese sensei down the centuries
and you are only a bloody gaijin and what's more, you've
never been to Japan, so what you should really do is either
give up all together or travel a long way at incredible
expense to keep your principles 'pure' and don't forget that
unless the new instructor has an impressive looking piece of
paper and is either Japanese or has been to Japan or etc
etc, no matter how good his technique or his own
instructors, he's just a charlatan and a cheat and what
right does he or anyone else have to claim to be teaching a
genuine koryu?
And why would you want to study a koryu anyway? What
impudence! What presumption! How dare a European express an
interest in an ancient and noble lineage that may only be
studied and practised by people who have practiced and
studied it for a long time (although presumably even THEY
started at the beginning?) and are taught by people who DO
have an impressive piece of paper or belong to the
Officially Approved Koryu Instructors Club o' the Month?
No - you're a foreigner, so go take up boxing or shooting or
some other 'thing' that is more appropriate to your national
culture. In fact, verily and forsooth; as thou art an
Englishman, thou shouldst study ye noble art of jousting as
hath been taught down ye centuries unbroken by ye merrie
knights at yon lists that be where yonder lies the castle of
my father.
Kevin - ignore all the naysayers and knowalls - at least
you're prepared to keep training instead of saying 'oh well,
I'll take up shove ha'penny instead', which is what the
majority of 2-year students do when sensei moves away.
Hopefully you'll locate a decent teacher; there are BKA dojo
that also practice MJER and MSR and I don't give a
hootenanny whether the esteemed elite bestow the honoured
title of 'koryu' on them or not. Maybe you'll end up at the
Snake of the Dojo, but there again, maybe you'll find a good
teacher and have a lot of fun and enjoy doing whatever you
end up doing without wasting too much time gazing at your
navel and pondering the meaning of life.
My old chum Mark Sykes was interviewed on Japanese TV many
years ago while staying with Haruna Sensei at the Musashi
Dojo in Ohara (where some say Musashi never came from - in
fact he either did or didn't exist either) and was asked by
the interviewer to explain why he - a red haired gaijin -
would want to study something as ancient and intrinsically
Japanese as iai. Mark's Japanese was a tad limited at the
time so his answer was "because it makes me happy". I would
imagine that there are those here present who would shake
their heads and walk away muttering at the shallowness of a
fellow just wanting to do something that obviously gives
them pleasure and lists it as their prime reason for being
there, but Haruna Sensei; who was worth more on a bad day
than every member of this list combined on a good day;
simply nodded his head and grunted his approval.
Go find something that makes you happy and good luck to
you - kick a teapot on the way.
Bill Mears - king of the naysayers and know-alls who can't
see his feet for his navel
Jim Boone
Toyama Ryu kicking around in town somewhere, but I can't remember
exactly where, which is a trifle embarassing having been there... If you
want, drop me a line and i'll try and remember.
It's not exactly koryu, but then what is? (Rhetorical Question Guys!!!!!
Put the keyboard on the floor, and step away slowly!!!!)
There's also MJER around and about, again, get in touch and I'll try and
dig out the details...
Kevin Harris wrote:
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Heringa J.K.
Almost everything I know is based on what I read in mailing lists and
articles. Oh btw, hajimemashite. My name is Koen Heringa and I have a tin=
y
bit of experience in Naginata, Kendo and Aikido. I also lurk at Aikido-L =
and
sometimes even post.
With the formalities done, may I ask what point you guys are making? As I
read it, Meik Skoss says it's stealing (or is it _like_ stealing?) if you=
go
looking for another koryu than the one you've been doing. That is, if you
are 'a recognized student of the head of a system or a legitimate
instructor.' But would that mean it's ok to take up something different i=
f
one is not a recognized student or instructor? Or do such students not ex=
ist
in any self-respecting koryu?
Assuming one actually is a committed student, according to Mr. Skoss one
then is allowed to begin studying another system only if the instructor
gives permission or one resignes from the system, right? So if any of tho=
se
two things happened, Kevin Harris can happily look around for something t=
o
practice, no?
Even so: 'if a person thinks it's "okay" to go shopping around, switching
brands at one's convenience, best think again. It's like stealing -- just
plain wrong.' It's probably me, but I haven't been convinced of this. Why
isn't is possible to be a committed student in more arts than one? Actual=
ly
it is, only not in the koryu. Because they are more than just collections=
of
techniques? That can't be the reason, can it? I've heard the same said ab=
out
Aikido and Karate, for example. Then it must be about the way the traditi=
ons
are passed down. But unless someone's planning on teaching, why shouldn't
that person decide for herself where to train?
This is not at all meant as a flame or anything like it. I'm just an
inexperienced soul - who thought that jodo was another kind of koryu (dep=
ite
the 'do' at the end) - and I don't quite understand what you are saying.
Just an inquisitive mind that wants to know.
Kim Taylor's post was even more confusing. What does it matter to the hum=
ble
practicer how large the organization is and if there are mulptiple menkyu
holders or one soke, as long as he likes the stuff? And as I understand i=
t,
Mr. Harris is not looking for a specific koryu (since he said so himself)
and not something hundreds of miles away. The way I see it, he has enough
reason to look around if there is any Koryu style dojo when the teacher h=
e's
been training with leaves the country and he either has to move or stop
training in that style.
And no, I don't know any Koryu in London:^).
Koen Heringa
Thus, the task is, not so much to see what no one has yet seen; but to th=
ink
what nobody has yet thought, about which everybody sees.
-- E. Schrödinger
Kim A Taylor
RE: Meik Skoss--
> Even so: 'if a person thinks it's "okay" to go shopping around, switching
> brands at one's convenience, best think again. It's like stealing -- just
> plain wrong.' It's probably me, but I haven't been convinced of this. Why
> isn't is possible to be a committed student in more arts than one? Actually
> it is, only not in the koryu. Because they are more than just collections of
> techniques? That can't be the reason, can it? I've heard the same said about
> Aikido and Karate, for example. Then it must be about the way the traditions
> are passed down. But unless someone's planning on teaching, why shouldn't
> that person decide for herself where to train?
Hi Koen
Simple answer is that if your koryu sensei says you don't train elsewhere,
you don't. He can boot you from the dojo at will, so don't piss him
off. It happens more often than one might think. In fact, any sensei can
boot you from the dojo, koryu or gendai budo or mogi-budo.
Now, is that the end of life? Is it even a crisis? Depends on how much of
your self-esteem you've got tied up in the school I suppose.
Can you study more than one art at once? Sure you can. Can you play tennis
and then golf? Sure. Can you do two koryu... say for instance MJER and MSR
and keep them separate? I've seen it done, lots of people can keep their
seitei gata reflexes out of their koryu reflexes... beginners usually
can't. I've also heard it argued that you can't do Kashima Shinryu and
Aikido since they are seemingly too close together but different enough
that if you start doing a technique in one you may get interference from
the reflexes of the other. "You can't chase two rabbits". Depends on the
student and the sensei I'd imagine, but if you're learning from sensei and
he says "don't practice two arts at once" you should likely listen. If he
says "don't even look at those guys, in fact don't talk to them, don't go
anywhere near them" you should also listen, for an entirely different
reason but we won't get into that now.
And my own opinion? Not important but it can be implied from the fact that
I study at least 3 arts fairly regularly, and have studied another 4-5 in
the past. I once asked Haruna sensei about that and he said "It's all
sword"... I haven't found anything to contradict that statement. Mostly
though I study what I get the chance to study, koryu, gendai, whatever. As
long as sensei has something I can steal I'll steal it.
> Kim Taylor's post was even more confusing. What does it matter to the humble
> practicer how large the organization is and if there are mulptiple menkyu
> holders or one soke, as long as he likes the stuff?
In my usual rambling and incoherent email posting style, I was talking
about many different topics not just one student looking for one club. I
suppose at the heart of it, what I was trying to say was that people
likely shouldn't be looking for a "koryu" at all. If it isn't next door,
it's a waste of time unless you want to risk years of your life moving
thousands of miles to be next door to a koryu instructor. (I say "risk"
since you may make that move and spend years of your life, only to be
booted out of the school for saying the wrong thing to sensei.) In a big
organization you get multiple instructors, you get multiple sources of
instruction, you get continuity, if sensei moves away or dies you get to
move to the club next block over. And if you're out in the boonies it's
still a better bet that what you are going to find is the big organization
stuff rather than the obscure koryu stuff.
Over the past couple of decades I've watched a lot of people hunt for a
"koryu" rather than go practice the sword in one of the (shudder
shudder) "organization" clubs. The impression I get is that they read a
lot of chatter on the net about such and such ryu and get the impression
that it's all over the place, so they start asking around and inevitably
get told off by us old farts who are usually grumpy and should just hold
our tongues.
Here's my question then, to try and clarify things for the newbies out
there who read all about "kenjutsu" (koryu) and it's benefits.
What is it that we're going to find in the koryu that we won't find in the
organization?
It's not like I haven't thought a lot about the question myself over the
years.
And as I understand it,
> Mr. Harris is not looking for a specific koryu (since he said so himself)
> and not something hundreds of miles away. The way I see it, he has enough
> reason to look around if there is any Koryu style dojo when the teacher he's
> been training with leaves the country and he either has to move or stop
> training in that style.
Yep, and good luck. Seriously.
Kim.
PS I've got another question for everyone out there. Why the hell is it
that there are so many "koryu kops" out there assigned to the Katori
Shinto-ryu? What is it about that particular school that brings out such
virulent defence, especially from people who have no connection to the
school? I don't see the same kind of reaction to discussions of, say,
Kashima Shinryu. Why Katori?
D. Agnew
> It's
>got to be the next step in the neverending quest for that exotic hobby
>that the martial arts has been since the 50s with the various waves of
>popularity for judo, karate, kung fu, ninja, aikido, and now the sword
>arts.
>
You mean we're suddenly popular? I have to admit that I haven't
noticed any significant change.
- Doug
New opinions are always suspected, and usually opposed, without any other reason but because they are not already common.
- J. Locke
Sam Chilcutt
Regarding Katori Shinto Ryu please go to the public website at:
http://tenshinsho-den-katori-shinto-ryu.org/
For further information about the Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto Ryu, contact
Phil Relnick, the only authorized Kyoshi-Menkyo in the western hemisphere,
at prel...@tenshinsho-den-katori-shinto-ryu.org
Best wishes,
Bjarne Blichfeldt
Hi Bill,
if we ever meet, remind me to buy you a beer.
The day budo doesn't make me happy, I'll stop.
"Lurk mode on"
Regards,
Bjarne
>
> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:51:47 -0400
> From: Bill Mears <bme...@BECON.ORG>
> Subject: Re: kenjutsu dojo in UK
>
> The others wrote > blah blah blah <end snip>
>
> Yes, god forbid someone should aspire to study a different
:snip a lot of good stuff
Karl Friday
Meik was making a fairly simple and straightforward point (although, to be sure, his choice of expression may be further evidence of why he still hasn't received that appointment as ambassador to Japan that he's been pushing for . . .) about the nature of koryu and koryu bugei studies. I suspect that a lot of his irritation comes from the fact that this point has been made over and over again, and still doesn't seem to get through to audiences outside Japan.
There are two fundamental points about bugei koryu that Western aficionados seem strangely resistant to grasping:
The first is that they are tightly controlled, proprietary packages of teachings. Most koryu are highly selective about accepting students in the first place, and become progressively more selective about those they allow access to deeper and deeper levels of study. Granting permission to teach is an even more proprietary and selective process. No amount of skill, knowledge or understanding of the school's kabala (ryugi) is in itself sufficient to qualify an individual to teach a koryu system. That permission can come from only one source: the *current* headmaster of the ryuha in question. Entry into all bugei koryu involves signing a pledge (kishomon)--sometimes signed in one's own blood!--promising dedication and commitment, as well as fidelity to the school and the headmaster.
The second point is that bugei koryu are, as Meik noted, not just collections of techniques. They're both more and less. They are, in essence, philosophies of combat--approaches to fighting and, by extension, to social interaction in general. The various techniques and kata that define each ryuha in material terms are nothing more than reflections of that underlying philosophy--and tools for imparting it.
This, too, invokes a serious commitment issue. Actually studying a koryu bugei (as opposed to sampling it, or cross-training in it) is a matter of assimilating a particular way of interacting with adversaries in combat. Some koryu are similar enough (or compatible enough) with certain others to permit simultaneous study of more than one. Others are not. This is a matter that can only be decided in reference to specific cases, and only by one's teacher (and prospective teacher).
To address Kim's question--and Bill's inimitable restatement thereof--there IS nothing magical or special about the koryu label, per se. What's at issue, and what should be at issue, is interest in and involvement with THE particular ryuha one chooses to study. Doing xyz-ryu because you want to "belong to a koryu" is silly. The only good reason for doing xzy-ryu is because you're (specifically) interested in xyz-ryu.
These considerations point to the reason why it's very unorthodox for someone to study a koryu for two years and then blithely move on to another, because of logistic difficulties. To be interested in studying *some* koryu or other, is rather akin to being interested in getting involved in some sort of extremist political group or other, or taking up some kind of religion or other. That is, it's very close to a non sequitur.
It's perfectly normal and reasonable to decide you're interested in studying Japanese sword or naginata or what-have-you arts, and then shop around for a ryuha that suits you--just as it's perfectly normal and reasonable to find yourself in need of some deeper spirituality in your life, or deeply disaffected by a current political situation, and go in search of a religion, or a political action group, that will meet your needs. But most people would find it a little odd that someone had become a devote Muslim for a couple of years, and then, after moving to a new city where there is no mosque, was investigating local synagogs and Baptist churches to "join." And most people would have a similar reaction to someone who shifted membership from the Weather Underground to the Michigan Militia, when his/her local chapter of the former disbanded.
People can and do make those sorts of conversions all the time. But they do it because their convictions have changed, not because their circumstances have. Religious devotees who lose their clergymen (or their congregation), or political activists who lose their cohort, *without* losing their convictions, usually find ways to adapt that fall short of conversion to other systems.
My point here is that leaving the study of one bugei koryu for another is NOT just a simple matter of continuing your study of the sword or whatever under a different teacher (any more than shifting from one extremist political group to another is just a matter of continuing the same radical political activism with another set of colleagues and leaders). It involves, in many respects, taking up a completely different activity. One does not train in "koryu arts"; one trains in A PARTICULAR koryu art.
This is why Mr. Harris' question rings odd to the ears of people like Meik. I'm not being unsympathetic to Harris' situation (I've been there myself!), but his question implies something very different from the sort of involvement in the art that koryu initiates view as normal and proper. It seems very strange for someone who has studied Katori Shinto-ryu for two years (and who doesn't indicate dissatisfaction with the art otherwise) to be seeking other koryu as a means of continuing his study of the sword, rather than other means of continuing his study of the Katori Shinto-ryu (such as finding other teachers, organizing a practice group with his fellow students, or whatever).
At PM 02:38 06/24/03 +0200, Heringa J.K. wrote:
Why
isn't is possible to be a committed student in more arts than one?
It IS possible to do this. But not with just any two ryuha.
But unless someone's planning on teaching, why shouldn't
that person decide for herself where to train?
And as I understand it,
Mr. Harris is not looking for a specific koryu (since he said so himself)
and not something hundreds of miles away.
And therein lies the whole point. The norm in koryu culture IS to look for A SPECIFIC KORYU--at least once you've begun training in one.
Karl Friday
Professor of Japanese History
Dept. of History
University of Georgia
Athens, GA 30602
ph. 706-542-2537
Christian Moses
Japanese sword arts and his teacher left. He's doing the *correct* thing
for looking for proper instruction, not just forming a study group or
(heaven forbid) founding his own style.
If I can paraphrase your argument Meik, once you start down the path of one
Koryu, you can never walk down another? Gee I thought you studied more than
one. Isn't that also like saying once you start studying one art (like oh,
Aikido) and then begin studying another art you are stealing? If that was
correct, man there'd be a lot of thieves on this list...
Give the guy a break and lighten up.
-Chris (just a lowly Dan-i in a gendai budo or two) Moses
>From: Meik Skoss <msk...@KORYUBOOKS.COM>
>Reply-To: Japanese Sword Art Mailing List <IAI...@listserv.uoguelph.ca>
>To: IAI...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
>Subject: Re: kenjutsu dojo in UK
>Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 18:02:31 -0400
>
>At 09:51 p.m., 23Ju03, K. Harris wrote:
>
> >Can anyone help? I've been studying Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu for
>almost two years now in London, but my instructor has left the country. I
>know there is not another TSKSR in or around London, but does anyone know
>of any other koryu style dojo in or around London?
>
>??? I know it's said "there's no such thing as a dumb question," but this
>one is pretty close to that, in my opinion. Assuming one belongs to a koryu
>(by which I mean is *actually* a recognized student of the head of a system
>or a legitimate instructor [as defined by the head of a particular ryu]),
>students who are committed do not "go shopping" for another style as soon
>as there is no dojo/instructor in the area. It's a very odd thing, at least
>from the way most koryu exponents of my acquaintance look at how one
>*ought* to view one's training.
>
>So, if a person thinks it's "okay" to go shopping around, switching brands
>at one's convenience, best think again. It's like stealing -- just plain
>wrong.
>
>Thanks for the soapbox.
>
>Meik Skoss
>Koryu Books
>Koryu.com: http://koryu.com
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Jim Boone
> Thank you guys, things are a bit clearer now.
>
> Koen - back to study
Well, they are, except for one thing, i'm sure Meik is the one who said
"You want Koryu? You go to Japan!" Which is probably true, they are so
wrapped up in the culture that they don't travel well or whatever. So,
studying a 'koryu' doesnt realistically happen in London then does it?
According to that argument, you aren't doing koryu anyway, so who gives
a fig?
The whole array of issues that folk have expounded about the koryu are
great, but i suspect that any "koryu" being done here is being taught in
a gendai fashion, and while a koryu budoka may be a part of 'the
brotherhood' and will alter their lives to follow the ryu, that just
ain't gonna happen here really.
Fogarty翔
living in Japan. That's why he's famous as a writer I suppose. Dr.
Friday's stuff went over my head, unfortunately. Ryuhgi means kabala doe=
s
it? I was told to say ryuhgi for ryuh'ha by an older man who called me h=
is
grandson, so I say ryuhgi. Sentimental, strange and all. I'm figuring n=
ow
he meant it refers to the art rather than the transmission of it, which i=
s
what I was trying to say at the time. Hari sensei (as in acupuncture, bu=
t
not my teacher) said in Japanese that I'd make a good teacher 'cause I
choose me words carefully, but others seem to say mostly in English that =
I
suck at it. Me, I like SMR whatever you might call it since I read that
story as a kid, but the other stuff has its merits. Exercise if nothing
else. I'd join the koryuh but doubt they'd have me; so what? Stupid
addiction, that's all. I like aikidoh philosophy as I was introduced to =
it,
figure it fits in with the modern world as I know it. I wonder why peopl=
e
like Phil Relnik go on to study TSKSR; are they not content with SMR? Is=
it
not really koryuh?
I like SMR but just can't get down the block to the dentist who teaches i=
t
before six, can I? Hard enough to get back for Japanese at seven feeling
responsible for little tykes some of whom say they love me (wondering how
that translates; I can't have them saying that, especially boys). Never
grew up, that's it.
Sea/n (翔)
Michael Castellani
These Japanese guys, go from ryuha to ryuha, learning abit here,
stealing/learning abit there and compliling it all, thus starting there own
ryu. This continues to progress for longer then any of us have been around
and even more new ryu form by continueing to progress from where sensei took
you to where you want to be. Sometimes people have a difference and there is
a split, sometimes somebody just wants to add a few things and so on. The
idea being progress.
Now as recently reminded to me : "Swordsmanship evolved and continues to
evolve, when guys wanted to practice with real swords for saftey, they
practiced alone (hence Iai), when guys wanted to practice techniques safely
with a partner in an organized fashion, they used bokuto (creating Kata) and
when guys just wanted to have some freestyle they used bamboo and armour
(Kendo and the likes). The idea being a safer way to train." The main idea
is that Swordsmanship keeps evolving, yet we keep taking steps back from
time to time.
Before it would have been okay for this guy to study that ryu and when the
exact samething happened (sensei leaves [define it however - death or
moving]), find a new sensei, learn something and take all that and complile
it. Why shouldn't he do just that, essentially, my question lies in why all
the sudden should there stop being new ryu ? (Is it because we are not
japanese and have to except our place ?)
Quotes from some of the sensei I have had the pleasure of training with
include : "There isn't anything new to me, that I haven't already seen
somewhere else in the sword arts." Hence, they are all relative, learning
one should really be no different then the other, key concepts are the same,
just the subtle styles and fancy ettiquettes (putting your sword away with a
big swoop). Additionally, I have been told always before a big seminar that
I must "Learn everything you possibly can from Sensei, try to steal
everything, his timing, posture, etc." Okay, it's just one of the sensei I
have who tells me this, but the points are quite clear to me.
Lastly, you all force me to do this, because I really hate it and never
wanted to use this sentence, but WHEN I WAS IN JAPAN, the impression I got
from all the 8th Dan Kendo and Judo Sensei's there is that they make fun of
and even enjoy kicking around the old koryu farts. The Kendo and Judo
Federations give them very little credit and do not consider them anywhere
close to equals simply because the ju/kendo guys train too, but most of them
are constantly advancing, the art continues to change. To them it is not
simple an art, but a science to constantly be examined and put under a
microscope. They even use technology to examine everything, for example in
kendo the do studies on everything from foot stomp pressure to tip speed (to
learn new stuff). Also, part an parcel to this is that, these guys also get
more respect, not only for there rank in modern art and there continued
growth, but because they have in part proven themselves in the ring (All
Japans, Worlds, basically tournaments [put up or ..]).
Lastly, why do people use the term stealing as if it doesn't apply to all of
us. Yes, Sensei gives us permission, but that permission is usually totally
dependent on doing exactly as told, but if we take it and try to think about
in anyway, try to adjust it, build on it and put any spin on it, then we did
something Sensei didn't tell us to do, we just used what we stold from him.
Import words of wisdon "Just train and don't worry about the politics" and
I'm babbeling now, so by.
Michael Castellani
P.S. Castellani Ryu - I like that, sounds kinda cool. To bad no one can ever
say my last name right (just got cantonelli and catorelly) it's not that
hard folks.
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Karl Friday
I'm sure Meik is the one who said
"You want Koryu? You go to Japan!" Which is probably true, they are so
wrapped up in the culture that they don't travel well or whatever. So,
studying a 'koryu' doesnt realistically happen in London then does it?
According to that argument, you aren't doing koryu anyway, so who gives
a fig?
The whole array of issues that folk have expounded about the koryu are
great, but i suspect that any "koryu" being done here is being taught in
a gendai fashion, and while a koryu budoka may be a part of 'the
brotherhood' and will alter their lives to follow the ryu, that just
ain't gonna happen here really.
I continue to try teaching outside Japan, because I would at least like to believe that it can be done. To be sure there are major obstacles. The most significant cultural factors that mitigate against doing this successfully, however, are precisely the attitudes and beliefs we're discussing here: the refusal of many non-Japanese to accept koryu for what they are and to embrace them as they are. You may be able to take koryu out of Japan, but you can't take Japan out of koryu.
I would, however, submit that it's at the very least silly, and perhaps even hypocritical or dishonest, to enter the study of a koryu if you *don't* believe that you're studying the real thing and/or aren't willing and able to accept what you're doing on its own terms--and to play by the established rules of the game.
Mr. Boone's argument is a very interesting--and pernicious--rationalization: koryu instruction outside Japan isn't really koryu instruction anyway, so the rules don't apply. There are two problems with this:
The first is the presumption that "any 'koryu' being done [outside Japan] is being taught in a gendai fashion." I have no idea what this opinion is based on, or even precisely what Mr. Boone means by "a gendai fashion." ("Gendai," BTW, isn't bugei jargon, it's just a general term meaning "modern"; it has no special connotations in application to Japanese martial art that the English word "modern" doesn't.) Nevertheless, if he's suggesting that most koryu have consciously modernized their inner structures and dynamics, he's wrong.
Some, the various iaido schools, for example, have. The development of the seitai forms and the like has made the koryu part of any iaido ryuha a kind of subset or satellite of a broader, generic art of iaido. It makes both the political and the physical and philosophical aspects of switching from one iaido ryuha to another much simpler. But other koryu--even those, like the Kashima-Shinryu, that have introduced considerable modern innovation to their organizational structures--remain adamantly unchanged with respect to what they are (or purport to be, at any rate), what they teach, and how they teach it.
The second, and larger, problem with Mr. Boone's rationalization is the argument itself. Even if the premise (that koryu are only really koryu in Japan) were true, it doesn't follow that this would give students license to treat them as they choose. The rules are still the rules, and students who begin the study of a koryu bugei pledge to abide by them.
The same line of reasoning could be applied to argue that foreign students of koryu bugei, even those who study for years in Japan, will never grasp the arts quite the same way as Japanese will; or that modern Japanese will never grasp the art the same way Tokugawa period, or even prewar, Japanese would have; so that neither is bound by the rules. You could also argue (as some students in my university classes have, in fact!) that cribbing a term paper isn't really wrong in your case, because this particular course is just an elective, on a subject that you won't be pursuing in depth anyway.
The bottom line in all these cases is that YOU don't have the right to make these judgements and decisions. If you believe that you can't study real koryu outside Japan, or that foreigners or modern Japanese can't learn real koryu anymore anyway, or that the material covered in a particular college course is utterly unimportant to you, you have every right to decline to participate. But you CANNOT sign on and then choose which rules and conditions you'll follow and which you won't. Those decisions belong exclusively to your teachers!
Karl Friday
If I can paraphrase your argument Meik, once you start down the path of one
Koryu, you can never walk down another?
Here's another analogy for y'all, this one by way of William Bodiford: Entering a bugei koryu, he suggests, is like having your lover's name tattooed on your arm. If you break up with him/her, you can always have your next lover's name tattooed next to the first one, but it's unlikely that either of the people immortalized that way would be very happy about it--and it won't produce a very pleasing aesthetic result either ("My heart belongs to Suzy/Betty").
The point at issue in this discussion, however, really has more to do with "why would you want to?" than with "you can't do that!" As I said in my last post, switching from one koryu to another isn't continuing sword instruction under a new teacher; it's starting over in an entirely different approach to the activity. In some cases, when the ryuha in question are very closely compatible (such as, say, Kashima-Shinryu and Maniwa Nenryu), this can be similar to switching from playing violin in an orchestra to playing fiddle in a bluegrass band. In other cases, it's as different as switching from playing classical trumpet to jazz drumming.
Teaching, as I do, through a college club, I get lots of students who have studied other martial arts before coming to work with me. My experience has been, though, that only a very small percentage of these students stay around for any significant length of time. For the most part, those who do tend to be people who were relatively advanced in Tae Kwon Do, Aikido, or whatever, but had begun to become dissatisfied with the art itself. Those who have studied other arts for two or three years--enough to get into the high kyu ranks but not far past shoden--almost all invariably get frustrated and leave very quickly. They come in expecting to continue their previous studies, and find that while some of their previously-acquired skills give them a leg up on other beginners, others make it *more* difficult to for them to do things the Kashima-Shinryu way. They quickly become frustrated at being back at square one and, unlike the more advanced (but disenchanted) "transfer" students, aren't really ready to cut their losses and start over.
I am, of course, in absolutely no position to guess at Mr. Harris' level of satisfaction with Katori Shinto-ryu. But the way he phrased his original question does seem to suggest that he's looking to continue what he's doing, rather than start over. If that's the case, he's probably SOL no matter what he does--other than finding another TSSKSR teacher. That is, he's in for a fair amount of frustration no matter what new form of Japanese sword studies he takes up. If, however, logistics--easy access to teachers and schools--is the priority here, he would most likely minimize that frustration (and future repeats thereof) by finding a good kendo or iaido or jodo group (as Kim suggested).
Karl Friday
Somebody has got to explain this to me, because it all sounds abit crazy.
These Japanese guys, go from ryuha to ryuha, learning abit here,
stealing/learning abit there and compliling it all, thus starting there own
ryu. This continues to progress for longer then any of us have been around . . . Before it would have been okay for this guy to study that ryu and when the
exact samething happened (sensei leaves [define it however - death or
moving]), find a new sensei, learn something and take all that and complile
it. Why shouldn't he do just that, essentially, my question lies in why all
the sudden should there stop being new ryu ?
The process Mr. Castellani is describing here was indeed the way Japanese martial art training worked--300 years ago. But this process stopped being a major part of bugei culture during the Tokugawa period, when the ryuha bugei system took shape. When samurai were flitting from teacher to teacher and picking up a few tricks here and few tricks there, ryuha were simple, informal entities, and mastering a school's teaching was often a matter of a few weeks or months study (see, for example, Hozoin In'ei's diploma from Kamiizumi Ise no Kami, dated "an auspicious day, 8th month, 1567," which states that Hozoin had "diligently applied himself to the study of the Shinkage-ryu SINCE SPRING [emphasis added] and the style . . . had been transmitted to him in its entirety"). During the Tokugawa period, bugei instruction and ryuha structure became much more formalized, and apprenticeships became elongated to years--lifetimes, in fact.
That is, Mr. Castellani is arguing for turning back the clock by centuries, not for continuing a standing tradition.
As to forming new ryuha: more power to anyone who wishes to do so. I have to wonder, though, how or why anyone would want to--or even believe him/herself capable of doing this. The medieval and Tokugawa era samurai who pieced together new ryuha didn't just collect techniques and combine them. They amalgamated them into unique systems, combining instruction received with real experience--on the battlefield or in duels. Without the latter sort of experience and testing, what credibility can any new system have?
Bill Mears
From: "Karl Friday" <kfr...@UGA.EDU>
> That is, Mr. Castellani is arguing for turning back the
clock by
> centuries, not for continuing a standing tradition.
But isn't that what certain Sensei in Japan try (well, maybe
not by centuries) to do when they insist that techniques
should not have been changed by those that have changed them
and that THEY are the only ones doing the 'real' thing as
taught by the 'real' original headmaster/ menkyo/ shihan etc
etc. I personally don't have a problem with that because it
makes me chuckle; unless they got a video of the old feller,
they could just be (gasp, surely not a Japanese sensei?)
lying to increase their prestige. Nor I would add do I have
a problem with Meik who's (well, one of them anyway) point
is well taken when you consider that most of the people who
say they are either teaching a certain koryu or 'authorised'
to are full of hooey - I mean, just how many 'shihans' can
the karate and aiki world have before it becomes top heavy?
And it's only a matter of time before the iai/ken world ends
up in the same sorry state, where hucksters and charlatans
relieve the earnest suckers of their much needed cash in
exchange for bogus techniques, taught badly and to no
purpose (quick- everyone write back asking about purpose!).
It's already started - go to any commercial martial arts
competition and whereas 10 years ago it consisted mostly of
karate-ka and people in hakama twirling bo like a crowd of
demented screaming janitors with broom handles, these days
you are just as likely to see a bunch of wannabe samurai (I
even saw one with a shaved head and topknot- honest; I kid
you not) wearing dayglo or lurex hakama and kamishimo waving
cheap 'wall hangers' in a most (not) convincing and menacing
fashion whilst emitting screams that sound more like a stuck
pig than a kiai.
And the point I'm making? Um..... Oh yes- there's plenty of
viewpoints and none are right and none are wrong (except
mine), so while I rant away, PLEASE don't take yourselves
too seriously- this is the 21st century and 99% of us live
on the wrong side of the sea anyway.
Bill Mears
Christian Moses
teacher moved and he would like to continue SOME kind of classical training.
He asked politely for information and was called a theif. That's wrong.
While some of this thread has been purely hypothetical, I think it pays to
keep in mind that there's a real person here who was insulted for simply
asking a simple question. Furthermore, it's *not* a question for him and
his teacher, his teacher is gone.
Since we've been speaking hypothetically here's one. Karl, I'm sure you
have some pretty dedicated students. I don't know if any of your students
are authorized to teach, but let's assume there aren't any. If you HAD to
move (for whatever reason) to somewhere just too far away to commute on a
regular basis, what would you have your students do? Just quit the JSA?
That seems pretty absurd to me, and I doubt that that's your opinion. It is
however how I read Meik's post. Stay with what you start with (or get
permission to train in) or train in nothing at all. Otherwise you're an
immoral theif.
My paraphrasing of Meik's opinion was an attempt to clarify his argument.
Jesuit logic, if I can paraphrase your point of view, then I understand your
point of view and we can begin discussion. If I got it wrong, we still
aren't understanding each other and we need to define ourselves better. It
was (and still is) my reading of his post. It's important to note that by
quoting the original poster's plee, I'm assuming that Meik was not speaking
purely hypothetically but was adressing the specific case which spurred this
whole thing.
-Chris
>From: Karl Friday <kfr...@UGA.EDU>
>Reply-To: Japanese Sword Art Mailing List <IAI...@listserv.uoguelph.ca>
>To: IAI...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
>Subject: Re: kenjutsu dojo in UK
>Karl Friday
>Professor of Japanese History
>Dept. of History
>University of Georgia
>Athens, GA 30602
>
>ph. 706-542-2537
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Jack Bieler
>The process Mr. Castellani is describing here was indeed the way Japanese
>martial art training worked--300 years ago. But this process stopped
>being a major part of bugei culture during the Tokugawa period, when the
>ryuha bugei system took shape.
That is exactly what Ueshiba sensei did, picking up pieces of several
ryuha and distilling them into his own style. Kano also, and Nakayama
Hakudo. And Ueshiba's students like Nishio, Tomiki, Mochizuki. This
process is exactly how Japanese budo work to this day.
>When samurai were flitting from teacher
>to teacher and picking up a few tricks here and few tricks there, ryuha
>were simple, informal entities, and mastering a school's teaching was
>often a matter of a few weeks or months study (see, for example, Hozoin
>In'ei's diploma from Kamiizumi Ise no Kami, dated "an auspicious day,
8th
>month, 1567," which states that Hozoin had "diligently applied himself to
>the study of the Shinkage-ryu SINCE SPRING [emphasis added] and the
>style . . . had been transmitted to him in its entirety"). During the
>Tokugawa period, bugei instruction and ryuha structure became much more
>formalized, and apprenticeships became elongated to years--lifetimes, in
>fact.
Examine some of the Daito Ryu menkyo from the last century. People whould
get kyoju dairi in 6 months, menkyo kaiden in a few years. SMR menkyo
could be received in 6 years. I don't think there was that much less
material 80 years ago; they were just a lot more dedicated. (Although I
will grant that Shinkage-ryu have probably added some material since
1567.)
Jack B.
Tim
> But isn't that what certain Sensei in Japan try (well, maybe
> not by centuries) to do when they insist that techniques
> should not have been changed by those that have changed them
> and that THEY are the only ones doing the 'real' thing as
> taught by the 'real' original headmaster/ menkyo/ shihan etc
> etc.
I have had to look twice to make sure I which list I have been reading
recently. This thread mirrors many that I have seen on the karate lists.
I teach a system of karate that fragmented into more than a dozen factions
after the death of the founder. The head of each faction insists that [he]
teaches the 'true' version. Actually, with insignificant variations, each
faction teaches the same thing!
The original question was, can I go to another system? Sure! You will
probably have to 'unlearn' some things, but if nobody else teaches the art
that you were learning, then go ahead and try something different.
> I personally don't have a problem with that because it
> makes me chuckle; unless they got a video of the old feller,
> they could just be (gasp, surely not a Japanese sensei?)
> lying to increase their prestige. Nor I would add do I have
> a problem with Meik who's (well, one of them anyway) point
> is well taken when you consider that most of the people who
> say they are either teaching a certain koryu or 'authorised'
> to are full of hooey - I mean, just how many 'shihans' can
> the karate and aiki world have before it becomes top heavy?
Too late--it already is too heavy. Too many chiefs, too few indians.
<snip>
> It's already started - go to any commercial martial arts
> competition and whereas 10 years ago it consisted mostly of
> karate-ka and people in hakama twirling bo like a crowd of
> demented screaming janitors with broom handles, these days
> you are just as likely to see a bunch of wannabe samurai (I
> even saw one with a shaved head and topknot- honest; I kid
> you not) wearing dayglo or lurex hakama and kamishimo waving
> cheap 'wall hangers' in a most (not) convincing and menacing
> fashion whilst emitting screams that sound more like a stuck
> pig than a kiai.
Tell me about it! I judge those competitions, and I have nearly been
whacked by a 16-year-old TKD brown belt with a bo--thankfully it was a
'toothpick bo' made for tournaments, and it probably wouldn't have done a
lot of damage had she actually made contact. Then there was the time I
judged a 'ninja' with a pair of [sharp!] kama. I nearly lost the tip of my
nose! After that, I told the shiai organizer that I wanted combat pay
[and] paid health insurance! ;-)
> And the point I'm making? Um..... Oh yes- there's plenty of
> viewpoints and none are right and none are wrong (except
> mine), so while I rant away, PLEASE don't take yourselves
> too seriously- this is the 21st century and 99% of us live
> on the wrong side of the sea anyway.
Absolutely! As wonderful as our arts are, they are still only a hobby or
avocation for most of us. Certainly, apply the philosophies you learn,
enjoy the feeling of accomplishment you get from your training, but
remember that there are a lot more important things in your life than
'koryu budo'!
Thanks,
Tim
--
Timothy J. Schutte | AIM: TimSchutte | ICQ: 57061028
kc...@wwnet.net | Yahoo: kc8hr | http://www.wwnet.net/~kc8hr
"If it ain't broke, then you're not trying hard enough!" --Red Green
Kim A Taylor
> The process Mr. Castellani is describing here was indeed the way Japanese
> martial art training worked--300 years ago. But this process stopped
> being a major part of bugei culture during the Tokugawa period, when the
> ryuha bugei system took shape. When samurai were flitting from teacher to
> teacher and picking up a few tricks here and few tricks there, ryuha were
> simple, informal entities, and mastering a school's teaching was often a
> matter of a few weeks or months study (see, for example, Hozoin In'ei's
> diploma from Kamiizumi Ise no Kami, dated "an auspicious day, 8th month,
> 1567," which states that Hozoin had "diligently applied himself to the
> study of the Shinkage-ryu SINCE SPRING [emphasis added] and the
> style . . . had been transmitted to him in its entirety"). During the
> Tokugawa period, bugei instruction and ryuha structure became much more
> formalized, and apprenticeships became elongated to years--lifetimes, in fact.
Heh, and why not. We all know how valuable and useful an apprentice
is... free work and all that, better than a grad student since they
decided to get themselves into unions.
But how long is long in modern times? Shimizu Takaji started training with
Shiriashi Hanjiro in 1913 at age 17, in 1918 he received the mokuroku and
two years later his menkyo, so we're talking 7 years from beginner to
menkyo. Of course you spend the rest of your life in the art but...
Now, someone tell me about the guys in Japan who "collect menkyo" by going
around to the old guys and studying for a while until they get the papers,
then move on to the next guy.
As Karl says elsewhere "Why would they want to?"
And again:
> As to forming new ryuha: more power to anyone who wishes to do so. I have
> to wonder, though, how or why anyone would want to--or even believe
> him/herself capable of doing this. The medieval and Tokugawa era samurai
> who pieced together new ryuha didn't just collect techniques and combine
> them. They amalgamated them into unique systems, combining instruction
> received with real experience--on the battlefield or in duels. Without
> the latter sort of experience and testing, what credibility can any new
> system have?
Never mind the credibility, or even the effectiveness, but what's the
point?
You dance with the one what brung ya don't you?
I've heard people describe shu ha ri as "learn it" "make it your
own" "found your own style" Which makes absolutely no sense to me
whatsoever. If you studied X-ryu and it brought you to the peak of
enlightenment and martial power, why would you bother changing it or
inventing something new for your own students? Hell it was good enough for
you it ought to be good enough for them.
So the reason? Well maybe your sensei says you can't teach his art so you
change the name... not a different art but a different name.
Or you never really got much of a grade in the 6 arts you studied for 4
months each, so you just combine what you know into a mix and are forced
found your own style.
Or perhaps less charitably, you figure you can make money on a patented
martial art that you can franchise. Let's face it, a second hand Chevy
will get you to the corner store but as the salesmen know, a red porche is
an easier sell.
Kim "get on the bus"
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Karl Friday
At PM 04:21 06/25/03 -0400, Bill Mears wrote:
From: "Karl Friday" <kfr...@UGA.EDU>
> That is, Mr. Castellani is arguing for turning back the
clock by
> centuries, not for continuing a standing tradition.
But isn't that what certain Sensei in Japan try (well, maybe
not by centuries) to do when they insist that techniques
should not have been changed by those that have changed them
and that THEY are the only ones doing the 'real' thing as
taught by the 'real' original headmaster/ menkyo/ shihan etc
etc.
To be sure! I've made the same point myself repeated: in terms of technique, at least, koryu are unavoidably evolving institutions. Even if it were desirable to maintain kata and techniques EXACTLY in the form you received them, it's not humanly possible. Teachers who insist they are preserving these things perfectly intact are fooling themselves. But I don't see how that phenomenon is relevant to any of the points at issue here. Designated successors within a ryuha lineage deluding themselves--or even deluding their students--about the historical purity (for lack of a better term) of what they teach isn't the same as students picking up bits and pieces of various sword kata and amalgamating them for themselves.
On the other hand, the sort of "kata drift" (to borrow a term Kim coined a few years ago) Bill is talking about here IS relevant to the discussion, because it underlines the point I've been trying so ineffectively to make: The kata and techniques are reflections and tools of the art, NOT the art. The kata can and do change form, sometimes repeatedly even in the lifetime of a single headmaster. But the underlying essence of the ryuha--the ryugi, or what I've called the kabala--doesn't change (or, at least it evolves much more subtly and much more slowly).
If y'all can stomach yet another analogy: There are still thousands of people today who make their livings performing classical (European) music. These folks live in a very different society from the one(s) that produced Mozart, Beethoven or Brahms; and therefore bring a very different cultural baggage to their studies. They learn their craft using teaching tools that didn't exist when the composers whose music they perform were around. And they perform on instruments manufactured with tools--and, in many cases, with materials--that didn't exist then either. Yet the devote their lives to preserving an underlying essence inherent in the music they play that remains true to the composers' visions, as passed down from generation to generation. And they generally believe themselves--and are generally believed--to be successful at this. That is, that Mozart, Beethoven or Brahms would not be shocked or upset by a New York Philharmonic performance of one of their pieces.
Fine, but our case in point is a guy who isn't asking to study 2 ryuha. His
teacher moved and he would like to continue SOME kind of classical training. . . . Furthermore, it's *not* a question for him and
his teacher, his teacher is gone.
For better or worse, this simply isn't true. His teacher's lack of proximity--regardless which of the two of them created the geographic separation--doesn't change his obligations a bit. Nor is it relevant to the point I (and, as I understood it, Meik) have (was) trying to make: THERE IS NO WAY FOR HIM TO CONTINUE HIS STUDIES UNDER SOME OTHER RYUHA, , because shifting to a different ryuha means starting new and different activity, NOT continuing an on-going one in slightly revised form.
Again: If you spend a year or two learning to play jazz saxophone, and then lose access to your teacher, taking up classical guitar is only in a VERY loose way continuing the activity you started. Yes, you are continuing to study *music*, and you might find some of your experience applicable (such as the ability to read musical notation--assuming your jazz teacher even taught that way!), but you're still basically going to find yourself starting over, from scratch. And you'll find that to be the case, even if you switch between fairly similar instruments and genres, such as from jazz sax to jazz clarinet. Extending this analogy a bit further: the closer you come to mastery of one instrument and genre before taking up another, the more likely you are to be able to both perceive which instruments and genres will compliment what you've been doing, and to accelerate the learning curve of the new instrument. But a beginner with just a year or two's experience in the first instrument will find picking up the second one to be largely a matter of starting all over.
Bugei koryu work the same way. Changing from one system to another is NOT just "continuing SOME kind of classical training." It's at least as much a matter of starting over as, say, moving from Shotokan karate to Aikido.
An advanced student of Kashima-Shinryu or Katori Shinto-ryu who's studied only sword kata will require minimal time to become adept at the naginata or bojutsu kata of his/her ryuha. But a master of Tendo-ryu naginata or Goju-ryu bojutsu would take MUCH longer. "Continuing study," in the case of bugei koryu, is only a meaningful construct within the specific ryuha you start. Study of another school's kata, even for a weapon with which you are very familiar, is taking up something new and different--whether you're simply cross-training to broaden your perspective on "your" school, or as abandoning one school for another.
That's why Mr. Harris' question seems naive and misplaced. The notion of there being such a thing as "the JSA" is a modern, mostly Western construct. Koryu practitioners see ryugi, not weapons, as the nodes of continuity and commonality.
Since we've been speaking hypothetically here's one. Karl, I'm sure you
have some pretty dedicated students. I don't know if any of your students
are authorized to teach, but let's assume there aren't any. If you HAD to
move (for whatever reason) to somewhere just too far away to commute on a
regular basis, what would you have your students do?
What happens in these situations is really case-by-case. In my case, my teacher gave me permission to teach students--within limited parameters--while back in the States. That's let me continue my learning and training in some respects, but it's hardly the same thing as continued direct apprenticeship under him. We've worked out similar arrangements for some of my students, when I've moved or they've moved--setting up satellite clubs and the like. Other students have been simply SOL--as I would probably have been, had I blundered upon some other koryu, rather than Kashima-Shinryu way back when. For better or worse, that's just the breaks.
My teacher could withdraw his permission for the sort of branch chapters through which William and I teach at any time. If he did, I'd have to shut down. My choices would then be continuing to practice, when I can, with other Kashima-Shinryu students and/or practice only when I can get to Japan; or to quit Kashima-Shinryu and start some other activity. I frankly can't imagine myself seeking out some other bugei koryu to fill the void, for the simple reason that it's IMPOSSIBLE to fill the void that way. I could continue to dress up in hakama and to swing swords and other Japanese weapons, but it would NOT be, in any meaningful way, a continuation of what I've been doing with Kashima-Shinryu all these years. It would be a replacement activity.
Moreover, I could NOT enter the study of another koryu without first ending my relationship with the Kashima-Shinryu, because Kashima-Shinryu rules--if not the rules of the new school as well--explicitly prohibit this. Most koryu teachers would require me to get a letter from Seki Sensei either granting permission to enter the new school without formally breaking from Kashima-Shinryu, or acknowledging that I have ended all ties to Kashima-Shinryu. (Note: this situation is very different from simply cross-training a bit in another school--although that too, requires one's teacher's consent, as well as the consent of the new instructor.) Kashima-Shinryu rules even require this sort of letters of introduction and permission for students to train at branch chapters other than their own. While it's true that I could skip all this formal nonsuch by simply not telling one or both of the teachers involved about the other(s), that would put me in breach of explicit promises made when I started Kashima-Shinryu, and would amount to my becoming (in Chris' terms) an "immoral thief."
On Wed, June 25, 2003 11:34 am, Karl Friday wrote:
>The process Mr. Castellani is describing here was indeed the way Japanese
>martial art training worked--300 years ago. But this process stopped
>being a major part of bugei culture during the Tokugawa period, when the
>ryuha bugei system took shape.
That is exactly what Ueshiba sensei did, picking up pieces of several
ryuha and distilling them into his own style. Kano also, and Nakayama
Hakudo. And Ueshiba's students like Nishio, Tomiki, Mochizuki. This
process is exactly how Japanese budo work to this day.
Sorry, Jack, but this dog won't hunt either. In the first place Ueshiba, Kano et al were creating modern budo forms for a modern age, not continuing their studies of koryu. Kano was absolutely explicit about this; Ueshiba cast his invention in the (traditional) guess of rediscovery of the past, but neither produced something with much resemblance to koryu bugei.
In the second place, this is a mischaracterization of what Ueshiba did to produce Aikido. More accurately, what he did was study Daito-ryu (itself a modern compilation) and then cross-train briefly in other forms of martial art, as well as simply observie other schools (including observing his own students, who came to him with experiences in other styles). In the process, he picked up ideas and perspectives that he applied to his developing vision of Aikido. But Aikido is still firmly grounded in Daito-ryu--Daito-ryu recast and revised--it is NOT a wholly new composite. Aikido and Daito-ryu are more variations of the same entity--kind of like the same song performed by different bands or in different arrangements--than different ryuha.
In the third place, none of us is any Ueshiba. Depending on who you talk to, Ueshiba Morihei was either a bugei genius of once-in-several-generations talent with a phenomenal ability to grasp the underlying essences and mold together parts from seemingly different things into a better whole; or a guy always on the fringes of his society, who got involved with almost every new age political and religious group that he came across. In either case, no one on this list is in any position to emulate him, so his example is irrelevant.
Examine some of the Daito Ryu menkyo from the last century. People whould
get kyoju dairi in 6 months, menkyo kaiden in a few years. SMR menkyo
could be received in 6 years. I don't think there was that much less
material 80 years ago; they were just a lot more dedicated. (Although I
will grant that Shinkage-ryu have probably added some material since
1567.)
My description was a summary history; exceptions don't disprove the generalizations. In essence I was describing trends in popular music from the 40s to the 90s--from big band swing to rap. Pointing out that Harry Connick still recorded great swing stuff in the 90s doesn't constitute an argument that big band was still the mainstream of pop music in that decade.
At AM 09:53 07/01/03 +0200, Chuck Gordon, wrote:
Guys like Meik and Karl who get lucky -- and yes, I know ya'll worked hard to get what you got, and I respect and appreciate that, but you were LUCKY, too, damned lucky -- are the exception, not the norm.
I've made that same point on several occasions on this list (as well as on E-budo). It seems to me that Meik has too. But let me say it once again:
Of COURSE I was lucky. I stumbled onto a form of martial art that suited my interests and temperament very well, and a teacher who was willing to take me on, even in the short term--and then make arrangements to let me continue training in fits and gaps. My involvement with Kashima-Shinryu and koryu bugei was pure serendipity. (Meik, on the other hand, went to Japan--and stayed there--specifically to study koryu bugei. He's built his whole life around this, so I'd submit that this involves more than just luck.)
But koryu bugei is hardly unique in this respect, and the situation of residents of countries other than Japan with respect to koryu bugei is not all that different from that of Japanese. Growing up in Wisconsin, I never had much opportunity to learn surfing as a kid. Nor could I take up serious gymnastics or soccer (even though I was good at them ), because my junior high and high school sports programs didn't include either one. Having monolingual parents, I never learned foreign languages outside of school. And, as a Japanese historian, I've never had the opportunity to live in Europe. There's absolutely nothing I could have done about some of these things; others I might have managed, had I had sufficient interest to be willing to change other fundamental parts of my personal or professional life.
Very few Japanese live in comfortable proximity to a teacher of a koryu that would suit them. Fewer still are able to find out about such a teacher near them. And even fewer are able to stay in close proximity and maintain job and family schedules that permit them to study for long years. That's why koryu are mostly small organizations.
None of this is unfair, except in the most abstract, cosmic sense of that concept. It's just the way life is. Koryu are not for everyone, and are not available to everyone they might be for. There will always be lots of folks around who would like to study some school or other, but who simply don't live near a qualified (AND authorized) teacher. And there are plenty of people who do, who never take advantage of the opportunity.
(Kashima-Shinryu is a very unusual koryu in terms of organization. We have branch schools, and teach exclusively at educational institutions, where we make admission to study open to anyone affiliated with the institution. We require no long-term commitments from students; they're free to quit at any time. And even so, logistics and other considerations--some imposed by the university--mean that every year we have trouble attracting enough interested students to maintain practice space at the gym.)
Entering a koryu--ESPECIALLY, but not exclusively outside Japan--amounts to a risky, one-way commitment. If you chose the wrong school, and later find it doesn't suit you, you may well have trouble getting accepted to a different school. If your teacher moves away or dies or just quits teaching, or you move away, there's no easy way--and often no way period--to continue your studies under a different teacher.
But none of that changes the rules of the game attendant to koryu study. Ya buys yer ticket, and ya takes yer chances. The fact that the game you paid to see got rained out midway through, doesn't entitle you to a refund (unless the guy who sold it to you says it does), and it doesn't admit you to another game at another stadium, on the same ticket. It just means that you aren't going to see the end of that game--and there's nothing you can do to change that sad, hard fact.
Pointing that out doesn't make me an elitist or a zealot. The former would imply that koryu are some kind of elite form of martial art--which they're not. The latter is really silly. If my teacher pulled the plug on my teaching or otherwise continuing Kashima-Shinryu outside Japan, I very much doubt that I'd quit my job and move back to Tokyo to teach conversational English--not JUST for the sake of continuing Kashima-Shinryu, anyway.
As I said before, I AM sympathetic to Mr. Harris' situation, but that doesn't change the facts of that situation either. I'm also sorry that he feels he's been attacked. No one has attacked him; and no one has called him a thief. Meik simply pointed out that his question was "a very odd thing, at least from the way most koryu exponents of my acquaintance look at how one *ought* to view one's training." His analogy with pirating music or movies was clearly aimed at the practice of collecting (and/or teaching) bits and pieces of various koryu arts, treating the ryuha themselves as "mere collections of technique." That practice is not legitimate or ethical, in the eyes of the ryuha headmasters to whom those techniques and their underlying principles belong, and no amount of rationalizing will change that.
I've been trying (apparently without much finesse or clarity) to elaborate on WHY Mr. Harris' question looks so odd to people of deep or extensive familiarity with bugei koryu. I've also, BTW, been trying (with considerably more apparent success) to draw out reactions and sentiments on some of these key issues from the members of this list--who constitute the best-informed and most-interested group outside Japan--for a conference paper I've been asked to put together on teaching and researching Japanese bugei in the West.
Anyway, it appears that I've done my usual, rather clumsy, job of irritating some people, entertaining others, and convincing very few. So I guess it's probably well past time for me to shut up and get off my soap box!
Kim A Taylor
> On the other hand, the sort of "kata drift" (to borrow a term Kim coined a
> few years ago) Bill is talking about here IS relevant to the discussion,
> because it underlines the point I've been trying so ineffectively to make:
> The kata and techniques are reflections and tools of the art, NOT the art.
> The kata can and do change form, sometimes repeatedly even in the lifetime
> of a single headmaster. But the underlying essence of the ryuha--the
> ryugi, or what I've called the kabala--doesn't change (or, at least it
> evolves much more subtly and much more slowly).
YES! Which is why I can't say I'm "in the hyo ho niten ichi ryu" but I can
say that I've studied, practice and (on being told to several years ago)
share the kata of the school as taught to me by Haruna sensei. It's a
seemingly subtle point but until and unless I study with Imai sensei I
won't know what HE actually means when he performs a certain kata. I know
what I mean, and what meaning I derive from it, and I might even be close
to Imai sensei's meaning but I don't KNOW.
And to make it quite clear, I don't have a "study group", I teach what I
was taught, period. (Although not very often, in fact I don't think I've
taught Niten for a couple of years now since Haruna sensei became sick,
but I've started again with my students in Guelph, they asked and I have
some things I want to examine.) I don't know why it bothers me so much but
the idea of a "study group" makes my molars hurt, either learn and teach
or go do some other art where you can get a sensei. A study group seems to
suggest a bunch of guys huddled around a picture book trying to figure out
which foot moves first to get to the next photo position. Waste of time,
not in my opinion criminal or anything, just a waste of time and guys, no
matter what you think, we don't have all that much time. Go find a sensei,
forget wanting to study this or that-ryu, find a sensei and do what he
does.
> If y'all can stomach yet another analogy: There are still thousands of
> people today who make their livings performing classical (European) music.
> These folks live in a very different society from the one(s) that produced
> Mozart, Beethoven or Brahms; and therefore bring a very different cultural
> baggage to their studies. They learn their craft using teaching tools that
> didn't exist when the composers whose music they perform were around. And
> they perform on instruments manufactured with tools--and, in many cases,
> with materials--that didn't exist then either. Yet the devote their lives
> to preserving an underlying essence inherent in the music they play that
> remains true to the composers' visions, as passed down from generation to
> generation. And they generally believe themselves--and are generally
> believed--to be successful at this. That is, that Mozart, Beethoven or
> Brahms would not be shocked or upset by a New York Philharmonic performance
> of one of their pieces.
OH! OH! but Karl there's a small bunch of musicians out there that say
that the modern methods and instruments DO harm the music and they use
instruments that are made "exactly" like the ones then and use methods
that are "authentic".... of course do they really? No video tape, no
"Suzuki method 1753" textbooks around to tell us how. Same with the
Japanese martial arts, no instuctional manuals out there, what we've got
is an "oral tradition" as vs the "instructional manuals" of the western
martial arts revival.
So, on a set of tapes that Mike Castellbello... Castellani? brought back
from Japan, what most people noticed was the naginata in full kimono on a
lovely dock beside the lake. Very pretty. But what made me jump off my
chair and rewind was a demonstration from, I believe, the Yagyu Shingan
Ryu wherein a pair of their demonstrators came walking out wearing foam
helmets and Chambara foam swords! Exactly what you are talking about here
Karl, use of modern and you gotta admit, safer practice weapons than the
old fukuro shinai to study the old kata.
How will this new practice weapon shape the kata now?
Who introduced it? I'd be willing to bet it was the headmaster because
nobody else would have the guts to do something that radical.
I was really excited to see those things out there. That's a koryu that
obviously intends to be around in 100 years. DAMN someone out there must
know these guys, interview them for me PLEASE, find out who, what and why.
> What happens in these situations is really case-by-case. In my case,
> my teacher gave me permission to teach students--within limited
> parameters--while back in the States. That's let me continue my
> learning and training in some respects, but it's hardly the same thing
> as continued direct apprenticeship under him.
Hmph, you tell it brother. And would you give up teaching KSR today and
study it instead if Seki sensei moved to the next town? Don't bother
answering, but howcome there's so many students out there that can barely
wait to start teaching? I honestly believe that anyone who wants to teach
hasn't been learning very long. Hmm, sorta zen there isn't it? Well I
suppose it's the same thing. Anyone who thinks they've "got it" doesn't.
If you meet buddha on the road, kill 'im.
> I've been trying (apparently without much finesse or clarity) to elaborate
> on WHY Mr. Harris' question looks so odd to people of deep or extensive
> familiarity with bugei koryu. I've also, BTW, been trying (with
> considerably more apparent success) to draw out reactions and sentiments
> on some of these key issues from the members of this list--who constitute
> the best-informed and most-interested group outside Japan--for a
> conference paper I've been asked to put together on teaching and
> researching Japanese bugei in the West.
Once again proving my point that faculty never do their own work! ;-)
Gonna write a "popular press" version of the paper at the same time for
INYO please?
Kim.
Aden Steinke
commented on
> Subject: Re: Kenjutsu dojo in UK
>
<snip>
> And to make it quite clear, I don't have a "study group", I teach what I
> was taught, period. (Although not very often, in fact I don't think I've
> taught Niten for a couple of years now since Haruna sensei became sick,
> but I've started again with my students in Guelph, they asked and I have
> some things I want to examine.) I don't know why it bothers me so much but
> the idea of a "study group" makes my molars hurt, either learn and teach
> or go do some other art where you can get a sensei. A study group seems to
> suggest a bunch of guys huddled around a picture book trying to figure out
> which foot moves first to get to the next photo position. Waste of time,
> not in my opinion criminal or anything, just a waste of time and guys, no
> matter what you think, we don't have all that much time. Go find a sensei,
> forget wanting to study this or that-ryu, find a sensei and do what he
> does.
Not necessarily - the study group can also supplement the sensei
instruction. Here in Wollongong (thats in Australia for you foreigners) we
are isolated from our koryu instruction - so we have a weekly jodo study
group session (and an iaido study group) as part of our Kendo Club - no
formal teacher, just a pair of us seitei jodo nidans helping each other and
a handful of beginners self practice between our monthly classes taught by
qualified SMR people. Rather than learn and teach, down here we practice
and learn. At Wollongong we teach Kendo, Seitei Jodo and Seitei Iaido,
anything else done is self practice and a study group can help with that.
If we had to make do with just readily available printed materials and not
have access to real instruction on a regular basis..... shudder..... it
would be like going back to my first 5 or 6 years of Iai - much sound and
fury signifying very little in terms of real learning - not that I would do
it differently if I had the time over :).
Aden
University of Wollongong Kendo Club
http://www.uow.edu.au/~aden/kendo.html
Karl Friday
And would you give up teaching KSR today and
study it instead if Seki sensei moved to the next town?
But the dichotomy Kim's drawing here is, I think, misplaced. Teaching and learning are--or at least should be--different faces of the same activity. This is especially true in bugei studies, which is why senior students are called upon to do a good part of the instruction to their juniors, even when the head instructor is present.
Being forced to train (and to train others) for extended periods without immediate or direct supervision--to meander along the path for long stretches without a guide, as it were--has been good, as well as frustrating, for me. On the downside, it's taken me along more than a few wrong trails from which I've had to backtrack after my teacher/guide notices that I've wandered off the route. It's also deprived me of lot's of the nifty hints and shortcuts that my teacher has illuminated to other students over the years--as well as of some of the absorption-by-osmosis process that comes from just watching one's teacher perform.
But on the upside, it's forced me to wrestle with, and find and internalize solutions to, all sorts of problems and questions that would never have come up, if I'd had ready access to a teacher to fix them for me. In many respects this process has been a kind of non-violent musha-shugyo experience.
The real key, of course, to making this sort of situation work is not allowing yourself to become just a teacher--but not allowing yourself to fall into the neo-democratic, "we're-all-here-to-teach-each-other" "study group" mode either--and keeping in close (even if only periodic) contact with your teacher, so that he can get you back on the path and out of any briar patches you've wandered into, and then point out the next checkpoint you need to be navigating toward. If you manage this just right, it's arguably a better--and more traditional--way to learn than continual training under direct supervision.
Still, as I said, I'd trade it all in a heartbeat for the chance to have spent more of the last 25 years (and the next 25) attending daily practices with Seki Sensei!
Kim A Taylor
> But on the upside, it's forced me to wrestle with, and find and internalize
> solutions to, all sorts of problems and questions that would never have
> come up, if I'd had ready access to a teacher to fix them for me. In many
> respects this process has been a kind of non-violent musha-shugyo experience.
There's a few folks over here that have had to do the long distance
learning thing, working hard without the constant correction of a
sensei. I find that the situation seems quite different than what most of
the students seem to experience. It's obviously related to necessity but I
find that those who started this journey with me way back when can correct
their technique a hell of a lot faster than the students who have had a
sensei full time. I think there's a certain amount of laziness that comes
with being able to make the same mistake over and over and over
knowing that sensei will "catch it" and fix it for you eventually.
On the other hand, when you're in the situation where sensei sees you only
occasionally, and you're STILL doing the same damned thing he corrected
last time... At long distance you'd damned well better be able to fix
things immediately or you just don't get it done.
Of course it also means that all your practice is essentially solo
practice, even when you're teaching. So working for 10-20 hours to fix
that hitch that sensei mentioned isn't a big thing, while your students
may never ever get any solo practice in since you're teaching twice a week
anyway.
Different ways of learning, I agree.
>
> The real key, of course, to making this sort of situation work is not
> allowing yourself to become just a teacher--but not allowing yourself to
> fall into the neo-democratic, "we're-all-here-to-teach-each-other" "study
> group" mode either--and keeping in close (even if only periodic) contact
> with your teacher, so that he can get you back on the path and out of any
> briar patches you've wandered into, and then point out the next checkpoint
> you need to be navigating toward. If you manage this just right, it's
> arguably a better--and more traditional--way to learn than continual
> training under direct supervision.
Yeah, been there a couple of times in different arts. Democracy doesn't
work in the dojo. Someone's got to take responsibility for the screw-ups
and say "we do it this way" or you end up with mud. Then when sensei comes
again you've only got one variation to get rid of, rather than 6.