Daisho + Tanto
Michael
where would it be worn? Or wouldn't a samurai have also carried/worn a
tanto when wearing his/her daisho? Thank you in advance for your insight
and information.
Michael
Chris Covington
inside a fold in his kimono. it's said that there are still techniques for
this odd method in Daito ryu, but i don't know for sure.
gambatte!!!
Chris :)
Nathan Scott
> i believe that Takeda Shingen, carried a small tanto wrapped in a cloth
> inside a fold in his kimono. it's said that there are still techniques for
> this odd method in Daito ryu, but i don't know for sure.</snip>
I think you mean Takeda Sokaku, not Shingen. The last names are the
same, but thats about it. Takeda Sokaku was said to have carried an
unmounted (naked) blade of some kind in his kimono (inside the
haramaki?). This was his own personal habit, of which he was said to be
somewhat secretive about, and not part of the Daito ryu curriculum. BTW,
Sokaku would have been in his very early twenties during the Meiji
Restoration, and as a result would not have been wearing Daisho in
public (or likely at all) anyway. Probably why he carried a concealed
blade.
To the best of my knowledge, Samurai typically either wore a long sword
and short sword (shoto, wakizashi etc.) *or* long sword and tanto for
convenience - but not all three at the same time. When wearing yoroi,
some Samurai would also carry small daggers mounted in the back of the
obi in the event of kumiuchi, or a yoroi doshi (armor piercing knife,
worn on the right side edge up, I guess).
Regards,
Nathan Scott
_______________________________________________________________________
Nathan Scott Aiki Buken, Honbu
http://www.shinkendo.com Kokusai Shinkendo Renmei, Honbu
http://www.shinkendo.com/lmu.html Tsuki Kage dojo
nsc...@anim.dreamworks.com DreamWorks SKG #57462
nsc...@shinkendo.com
_______________________________________________________________________
Michael
>Nathan Scott replied...
>
>To the best of my knowledge, Samurai typically either wore a long sword
>and short sword (shoto, wakizashi etc.) *or* long sword and tanto for
>convenience - but not all three at the same time. When wearing yoroi,
>some Samurai would also carry small daggers mounted in the back of the
>obi in the event of kumiuchi, or a yoroi doshi (armor piercing knife,
>worn on the right side edge up, I guess).
The tanto that I have is a yoroi doshi. I after reading your reply, I
tried it and have no problem with batto from that location with the ha up.
But trying to do a noto seems like it would be very difficult unless the
saya were to be removed from the obi prior to noto. And I suspect there is
little if any writings about any styles that wear the katana and wakizashi
through the obi on the left side and also wearing a tanto (yoroi doshi)
elsewhere.
I guess I could substitute the tanto for the wakizashi. When wearing my
iaito katana, wear the iaito wakizashi and when wearing my shinken katana,
wear the shinken tanto for tameshigiri. I was hoping for some historical
reference.
Michael Kirst
John Lindsey
>>To the best of my knowledge, Samurai typically either wore a long sword
>>and short sword (shoto, wakizashi etc.) *or* long sword and tanto for
>>convenience - but not all three at the same time. When wearing yoroi,
>>some Samurai would also carry small daggers mounted in the back of the
>>obi in the event of kumiuchi, or a yoroi doshi (armor piercing knife,
>>worn on the right side edge up, I guess).
I thought that way before Edo Jidai, that tanto were worn on the right
side. This was to allow the left hand to draw the knife since the
right hand was the one controlling the horse. I am not sure of the
source of the "right side theory" but tanto from this era have the
signatures on the side of the tang expected for the right side.
Also, I can anyone confirm that the use of the word "tanto is an Edo
jidai one, since literature before 1600 use the term katana for the
knives?
John Lindsey
Administrator
www.e-budo.com
"The internet's source for Japanese martial arts and culture"
Shugyo Dojo
nsc...@anim.dreamworks.com writes:
<< > The difference is not only in the tip. It is in the cross section.
That is my understanding too. Funny enough, I looked up Yoroi doshi in
the "Green Goddess" Kenkyusha jiten, and it defined it as an close
quarters armor piercing stilleto. I would normally picture a stilleto as
being narrow and double edged, but I
thought Yoroi doshi were single edged. A "dagger" wouldnt penetrate
metal as effectively.
I've seen European ones that were diamond shaped in cross section and had no
edges at all. They were meant to puncture and kill. The same methodology
occurs here. The way they sharpened blades had alot to do with superior edge
retention, and contrary to legend (gee what surprise) they were not magical
cutters. But hey, thats a whole other topic
*************************************************
> BTW the chisel points from Cold steel are not typical on Tanto.
Yeah, that is a modern misnomer. I have a couple of japanese style tanto
myself.
> I do not know this to be true but I have heard they were on several
Japanese fish
> knives. There were several knives that were ground on one side only. Makes
slicing and
> dicing a joy.
Thats interesting.
Nathan "working late trying to finish editing the damn shinkendo
book..."
>>
Dan
just back from a seminar and my mind is racing and my body is spent
Chris Covington
<< I think you mean Takeda Sokaku, not Shingen. The last names are the
same, but thats about it. Takeda Sokaku was said to have carried an
unmounted (naked) blade of some kind in his kimono (inside the
haramaki?). This was his own personal habit, of which he was said to be
somewhat secretive about, and not part of the Daito ryu curriculum. BTW,
Sokaku would have been in his very early twenties during the Meiji
Restoration, and as a result would not have been wearing Daisho in
public (or likely at all) anyway. Probably why he carried a concealed
blade. >>
this is taken from an interview with the late Takeda Tokimune sensei. from
this it seems not only is the use of this conceled tanto part of the art but
the first technique learned!!!
"Sokaku always carried a short knife wrapped in a towel. He never showed
it to anyone, but I understand that once someone saw him drop it. The
technique using this knife was a secret technique of Shingen Takeda.
When an enemy comes to attack you with his sword, you use this knife in
this way [demonstrates]. I now get your vitals. This is ippondori in
Daito-ryu."
i have heard that Kondo sensei owns the swords used by Takeda Sokaku. perhaps
he owns the tanto as well?
gambatte!!!
Chris :)
Shugyo Dojo
nsc...@ANIM.DREAMWORKS.COM writes:
<< To be honest, I havnt seen many yoroi doshi personally, but I understand
that tanto
and yoroi doshi are not the same thing, and should not be mixed up. The
yoroi doshi is supposed to be shorter than most tanto, and sport a
thicker blade. In my mind I invision the basic design to be something
like what Cold Steel calls a "tanto" (but dont quote me on this). The
tanto I've seen dont appear heavy enough to pierce armor, where as
something like the cold steel design is reputed to be able to penetrate
through Police body armor (bullet proof vests). >>
Police armor is fairly easy to penetrate with a knife of the proper
shape. American bladesmiths have done it many times with different designs to
prove their skills . Never did see the point (pun intended) I see knives more
as tools then weapons anyway.
As far as the Yoroi doshi are concerned, I haven't seen enough to know
what is supposed to be typical. Of the few I have seen the blade was thicker
but it still sports a distal taper (thick at mune machi, gradually getting
thinner toward the tip) though not as much as tanto. Of the ones I have seen,
I dont think they would make good cutters. I made one for laughs out of a
sword blade that cracked in quenching. I reground it to an aproximate shape.
I drove it through a car door, through chain mail, thru my wrecked canoe.
Then I drove it thru plate iron and finally hammered it through a steel drum.
AND it still cut. I haven't made a throw away Tanto yet so I don't know how
it would fair in the same test.
Dan