Teachers Avoiding the Net
Jeff Cooper
Following the thread, but shifting it a bit... because it is quite an
important subject (bringing newby teachers, students, admins, parents
etc. to the Net)... and I have something to add regarding facilitating the
transition.
First, let me compliment those past postings, re: 85% teachers don't use,
ideas for creating personal site megasites (that sometimes backfire),
offering to handhold with little turnout (too busy), spending hours
building your own WWW sites but not being able to get teachers to even sit
down at a terminal. All of your comments are worthy and valuable. I
would like to see your www pages (please post). I myself constantly
bookmark and organize my folders (which are always behind and somewhat out
of date). From the recent postings on search sites I have over 20
bookmarked. The work people are doing *is* valuable even if we are not
seeing immediate (and short term) results. We need to see the work we are
doing as having long range impact; more teachers will come online as time
goes on... but many, indeed most, will not do so in the short run. Why?
Because teachers are trained to be masters of their subject matter... and
the Net is an overwhelming experience from start to finish. Even those
most experienced are inundated (too many listservs to read, too many
projects, trying to get WWW pages up, training, troubleshooting etc.).
Those who are new often won't even try because as teachers they don't like
to appear ignorant (of anything)... and virtually everyone is unsavvy re
integrating the Net into curricula. Solutions?
For myself, I believe more hands on and real time communication needs to
happen... I believe in the value of Educational MOOs. Get the people off
the WWW for a minute, and get them to interact with each other. Right now
classes are just getting online at the school where I am Computer Resource
Teacher. I will hopefully get the teachers networking using MOOs as a
real time medium. Before I introduce them to MOOs I get them email from
edmail (www.edmail.com)... and I get the *students* edmail as well. By
having them start communicating... regardless of the content (at first)...
people are *having fun while developing important net skills*. Email, cut
and paste, folders, address books, www sites, etc. are all important...
but people won't do them unless they are motivated to do so.
Which brings me to my final point regarding a shift in pedagogy away from
teacher centered didacticism towards learner centered andragogy. Give
people a dozen projects to choose from and they have the responsibility to
learn. When I asked a classroom of students if I gave them one project,
they all thought it was the teacher's responsibility for them to learn,
second was the school's, third was the parent and fourthly themselves.
To an extent this is true today, because we still look to (outdated)
methodology and the blind belief that "direct instruction is the most
effective, and by inference only type of instruction used." This is not
the case with the Net... where we can develop different paths, learn
through collaborative group efforts (across continents)... learn far
beyond what our teachers know (how many of you can teach Java? Perl?
Object Oriented programs? Are you aware that it's possible to do so
online for free?). Many teachers may feel threatened by this type of
shift, yet the possibilities for growth far exceed the (perceived) danger
of losing control.
I welcome others to engage in online collaboration, and will gladly mentor
those in using Educational MOOs, edmail, or other Net tools in exchange
for your knowledge. Currently I will be helping a local high school to
determine how to spend $400K on tech over the next few years. Your input
here would be helpful.
Regards,
Jeff Cooper
Computer Resource Teacher
Mr.C on EdMOOs (http://moo.du.org:8000)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
DEOS-L is a service provided to the Distance Education community by
The American Center for the Study of Distance Education, The Pennsylvania
State University. Opinions expressed are those of DEOS-L subscribers,
and do not constitute endorsement of any opinion, product, or service by
ACSDE or Penn State.
Madeleine Murphy
you know this!) to spend a good chunk of it NOT on the machines, but on
training and discussions with faculty--where people explore how machines help
them reinvent teaching, the student-teacher relationship, the meaning of
education etc.
If my college is anything to go by, faculty reluctance comes from (a)
intimidation by fierce computer jargon; (b) the secret belief that this
signals the end of the world as they know it; (c) complete ignorance of what
Web sites, MOOs etc. actually are. (Online teachers like me get asked
questions like, "Yes, but how do you grade papers online?" !!!) Also, people
tend to think they have to learn to "convert" their courses to "online mode,"
as if it's some alien creature. So we're shooting first to get people used to
having their own web site, then seeing at what moments in their classroom
teaching they think "rats, if only I could prolong this discussion" or "if
only I could get that kid in the corner involved" or whatever: to help each
individual teacher discover what he or she finds limiting about the classroom,
and thus explore how to use the internet to support his particular subject,
style, students etc.
My website (which is, er, an interesting example of primitive Early Claris) is
at http://www.smcccd.cc.ca.us/smcccd/faculty/murphy/oleng165/welcome.html
madeleine murphy
college of san mateo
deos moderator
etc.)
>
> As to suggestions for spending technology money: it's a good idea (I'm sure
> you know this!) to spend a good chunk of it NOT on the machines, but on
> training and discussions with faculty--where people explore how machines help
> them reinvent teaching, the student-teacher relationship, the meaning of
> education etc.
I should have mentioned in my previous post that the school is receiving
an *equal* amount for staff development... on top of the machines. Yes...
staff development is critical... and I for one am in favor of working out
a consortium... I have certain skills that I'm sure teachers could use
around the world (Educational MOOs my strongest suit). Other (shall I say
"deos-style") educators have complimentary skills. Can we collaborate? I
suggest that we start looking into the possibilities. I recently read
that the Challenge Grant recipients received millions last year for staff
development. Yet when I look at the contact information... all I see are
long distance phone numbers... can we start to organize these people? I'm
willing to work for cheap online... especially if I can do so for many
groups. I'm sure most of my colleagues (and even though I am but a
"lowly" middle school teacher irl (hehe), I am your equal, colleague, and
peer online) out there can do the same. What are your special skills and
what would you be willing to share? Aside from EdMOOs I have over 300
educational bookmarks... shall we organize our folders together?
Onto the rank and file teacher... who suffers from about 85% compuphobia
coupled with 95% fatigue, 98% underpay and stress that I won't even put a
dollar figure on. How do we get them to "buy in?" My thoughts:
#1 Pay them. Staff development should start with teachers being paid
to learn. That is what I'm putting as #1 in front of the grant people.
If teachers are paid to attend classes... they better come.
#2 Make buy in easy, user friendly, and enjoyable. It's doable and you
know it. I've been teaching 6th graders how to create an email account
and send email in under an hour. I figure if I can teach a student, I
might have half a chance of teaching the teachers (a tough audience to be
sure). Email is easy... take them to edmail and sign them up. What to do
next? Actually... have the teachers bring their best lesson... and then
put it online (at IECC, IEARN, Hilites, etc.). Now they are joining an
international collaborative of teaching and you've only been teaching them
for an hour.
#3 You tell me. Teachers either buy in or they don't... bottom line is
60% of the jobs our students will have haven't been invented yet... and we
need to teach them the skills to get them there. I figure if I have a
decent Net connection, Windows 95 and MS Office I can take it from there.
Do others need more? Tell me what you like... I'll see if I can
incorporate it.
I say we go for it. Takers?
Kathleen M. Lant (Kathleen Margaret Lant)
accepting registration for the Winter Quarter's Online Certificate in
Online Teaching program.
The certificate consists of four online courses which can be completed in
two quarters. If you are interested in the program, you may review
courses, the program, and registration materials at
http://www.online.csuhayward.edu/
The first course in the series (EDUI 7700: Introduction to Online Teaching
and Learning) begins on 28 December.
peggy lant
Jeff Cooper
The following post regarding an Online Certificate (and eventual Masters)
raises serious issues for me. I appreciate the time and effort placed by
all concerned, indeed the coursework looks like it has improved by leaps
and bounds over the first set of course offerings by CSUH. For the
*novitiate* user, it may prove very useful and significant. However, from
my own end, I have significant problems with the way traditional
universities are creating programs that do not deal with the needs of
experienced online users.
#1) The price tag: $450 for 4.5 units. The $100 per unit price tag is
standard fare for regular extended education units. However, for an
online course to cost the same belies what I believe to be an important
tenet of online ed, namely that it should be available to a wider range of
participants than standard education. I wonder if any supply demand
studies have been made in this area. Wouldn't it make more sense for CSUH
to charge $10 per unit if they were able to bring in 20 times the
students? I'm sure there are bureaucratic reasons why they can't or won't
lower their fees, but I can't afford it, and neither can most teachers.
#2) The curriculum: visit their screenshot of what online ed looks like:
http://www.online.csuhayward.edu/images/ScreenShot_1.gif
All of the information comes from Rick Meyler (obviously the instructor).
His choices for lessons look very good for someone who has never utilized
online ed. I have two problems however. 1) I've been there and done
that... so what am I to do (if I did enroll?). I have been reading about
online degree mills... is that what I personally need? Someone to give me
a paper? Who will do that, WAOE, DEOS, etc.? These courses certainly don't
meet my needs, yet from what I've seen of online ed (not just CSUH) is
that I can either pay a lot for remedial courses from a traditional
university, or pay little for no credit classes (via John Spiers). I have
little interest in the former, and the latter, although very useful and
important, don't get me the "credit" I need to improve my lot irl. 2) I
disagree with an online course where virtually all the material flows from
the instructor on down. Can't the mechanism of collaboration work its way
in? I firmly believe that we can pool our collective resources and deliver
our strengths to each other as a consortium... everyone learning from
everyone... 3) And finally... I see little interest in utilizing
synchronous Net tools. Indeed... most online ed seems WWW based... which
means that realtime dialogue doesn't exist. Yes... emails can ebb and
flow links, but there is something to be said for spontaneity and
dialectic, not to mention the comraderie more possible within a
synchronous environment (whether an online or real classroom... indeed,
more conversation is possible with an online text based classroom than a
standard one).
Until someone can figure the above out, I will remain
Respectfully Unmasterfully Yours,
Jeff Cooper
stray
the world. Every day, I come across the problems of student participation.
It is DEFINITELY a BIG problem.
Companies that pay for training out of their budget, have charged back
students that have had a reserved seat and did not show. This ABSOOULTY
works. Companies have catered a lunch affair and we have performed a "tips
& tricks" seminar. Two days of training was equal to a 1/2 day off.....and
there are many more.
I have two teachers in my family. They have off for three months
out of each year and are making between 65k to 80k per year. I don't agree
with the theory of paying the teachers more money to get educated which will
allow them to perform their proper job task. Why not save that "extra"
money and improve the total school system?
Making a teachers salary in a decent school is not a bad part time job.
Part time, as to 9 months instead of the usual 12. Think of how the entire
American workforce would feel, if they all had the same schedule.
Still...there would always be a few complainers.
A. Genovese
Jeff Cooper
> I work for one of the largest Microsoft Authorized Educational Centers in
> the world. Every day, I come across the problems of student participation.
> It is DEFINITELY a BIG problem.
> > Companies that pay for training out of their budget, have charged back
> students that have had a reserved seat and did not show. This ABSOOULTY
> works. Companies have catered a lunch affair and we have performed a "tips
> & tricks" seminar. Two days of training was equal to a 1/2 day off.....and
> there are many more.
Right... corporations *pay* their people to learn. Don't you find it
ironic that teachers have to pay when required to learn more? You imply
that it works, but then below argue against it... which sounds
self-contradictory.
> I have two teachers in my family. They have off for three months
> out of each year and are making between 65k to 80k per year.
Each? No way, unless they are tenured professors somewhere. I'm in
California and after eight years of teaching my "step and range" have me
in the low 30Ks. If I were making 65 to 80K I'd be happy to pay my way
for outragously priced classes... which are the norm rather than the
exception... especially extended education units at traditional colleges.
> I don't agree
> with the theory of paying the teachers more money to get educated which will
> allow them to perform their proper job task.
Why not? First of all... you say it works for corporations... then back
off for these pampered and overpaid teachers (in your opinion). As far as
their "proper job task" is concerned... that is where the major rub is
happening. Teachers with 20 years experience will tell you they are doing
just fine, and don't want the added burden of learning "all this high tech
stuff." I personally agree that the Net is important, and indeed will
become part of the "proper job" in years to come. Fact of the matter is
that we are far from that state of affairs, and if we want to facilitate
and speed up the process we need to give teachers the support they need to
have them do the work. Indeed... expecting people to work (and learning
the Net is major work, won't you agree) without payment has a term for it.
> Why not save that "extra"
> money and improve the total school system?
Right... like buying computers that lie fallow on teachers' desks because
they don't have the time, training, or incentive to use them? You are
back to square one with this circular argument.
> Making a teachers salary in a decent school is not a bad part time job.
Where are you teaching? Part time... supporting a familly? It's not a bad
life if you don't have any bills to pay. I don't know too many part time
teachers either... and my full time job has me going in debt at the rate
of 5-7K a year for the span of my career.
> Part time, as to 9 months instead of the usual 12. Think of how the entire
> American workforce would feel, if they all had the same schedule.
> Still...there would always be a few complainers.
Right... I have my summers free to do things like travel to yEurope, or
more usually teach summer school to even try and make ends meet. Ask
your workers how they would like to not receive a paycheck between June 15
and October 1 each year.
You don't really respond to the argument, that basically teachers deserve
retribution for extra work... and becoming technologically competent is
definitely more work, and required of our workers (teachers).
Regards,
Jeff Cooper
Computer Resource Teacher
Portola Middle School
El Cerrito CA
co...@edmail.com
Mr.C on EdMOOs
Melvin
From: stray <st...@OPTONLINE.NET>
To: DEO...@LISTS.PSU.EDU <DEO...@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Date: Saturday, December 05, 1998 9:16 PM
Subject: Re: [DEOS] Teachers Avoiding the Net
Please tell me where the two teachers in your family who earn $65K to $85K
work. I've been teaching 24 years, earn $42K and am paying my own way to
earn a masters in Educational Technology Leadership. It's my second masters
by the way.
More power to your relatives, but I do not believe they represent the
majority of teachers in this country.
Sarah
maureen cahill
assure that the large majority of teachers in the US make nowhere near 65k
to 80k per year. That includes 20 - 30 year veterans. Nor do most teachers
work "9 months" as you erroneously believe. With very few exceptions,
teachers pay for their own classes, seminars, and conferences. Where in
the corporate world is this common practice. Your comments reflect a gross
overgeneralization.
To eliminate such bias, I invite you to join the workforce as a teacher for
one year. I doubt that you would continue to honestly maintain that
teachers are paid between 65 and 85K and work only 9 months per year.
MACahill
----------
> From: stray <st...@OPTONLINE.NET>
> To: DEO...@LISTS.PSU.EDU
> Subject: Re: [DEOS] Teachers Avoiding the Net
> Date: Friday, December 04, 1998 12:40 AM
>
> I work for one of the largest Microsoft Authorized Educational Centers in
> the world. Every day, I come across the problems of student
participation.
> It is DEFINITELY a BIG problem.
>
> Companies that pay for training out of their budget, have charged
back
> students that have had a reserved seat and did not show. This ABSOOULTY
> works. Companies have catered a lunch affair and we have performed a
"tips
> & tricks" seminar. Two days of training was equal to a 1/2 day
off.....and
> there are many more.
> I have two teachers in my family. They have off for three months
> out of each year and are making between 65k to 80k per year. I don't
agree
> with the theory of paying the teachers more money to get educated which
will
> allow them to perform their proper job task. Why not save that "extra"
> money and improve the total school system?
> Making a teachers salary in a decent school is not a bad part time job.
> Part time, as to 9 months instead of the usual 12. Think of how the
entire
> American workforce would feel, if they all had the same schedule.
> Still...there would always be a few complainers.
>
> A. Genovese
Scott Hildreth
Jeff Cooper wrote a great note of 3 December 1998 about the online program at
CSUH. He raised good questions about the cost, the curriculum, the delivery
mode, and the overall value for us as educators.
I have just completed that online certificate program, and thought perhaps that
my experiences would be useful to Jeff and others considering graduate online
education courses focusing on Distance Education. I believe that other DEOS-L
subscribers may also be graduates of the program, and hope that they, too, will
add their thoughts.
The price for the courses are, as Jeff said, $450 each, or $100 per unit. This
was expensive, but having completed the entire program I feel the money was
well-spent. UCLA offers a similar program for $350 a course; I chose CSUH
because I knew some of the folks involved and respected their work. Each course
was run totally asynchronously, using software provided by Convene
(www.convene.com); I believe that the cost for student licenses and system
support for the software was built into the overall program cost. For two of
the courses, we also needed books which ran $25-50. Our first virtual class
included 45 students (broken into 3 subgroups of 15 each), and later courses had
around 20 students. One of the best parts of the online series was the
diversity of participants -- faculty from all disciplines as well as
instructional designers, from universities, four- and two-year colleges, high
schools, for-profit educational providers, and industry.
I found two of the courses to be excellent; well-designed and more importantly,
very well facilitated by instructors (Gerry Bedore, Jr. and Bob Geibert) who
participated actively in the discussion, who encouraged a tremendous amount of
collaboration, and who learned from us as much as we learned from them. Many of
us in the courses already had significant exposure to the issues surrounding
distance education and online learning, and a few of us have online courses of
our own. But that prior experience did not make the curriculum redundant, at
least for me, because of the rich interaction that occurred as faculty from
across the country discussed their students, their diverse teaching styles, and
the challenges they all faced. I learned a tremendous amount from my virtual
classmates, and from these instructors. This field -- online instruction -- is
complex, and technology is changing quickly. I was amazed and encouraged at the
growing number of scholarly articles about online education, and the rapidly
multiplying number of outstanding online courses across the curriculum. I
believe even the very experienced online teachers among our ranks would still
find much of value taking these courses.
Jeff asked whether the cost could be lowered so that more people could take the
course. One drawback to that approach would be the sheer volume of messages
generated in each 15-20 person group. We routinely had discussions with
100-200 messages a week, as a typical assignment required each of us to
investigate current online education research, post URLs and comments, read and
comment upon the posting of our classmates, read the responses and suggestions
from the instructor, and respond as desired when the conversation took off --
and it always did! Far and away, the best part of these classes for me was
exactly this rich communications with educators in a variety of disciplines,
with a variety of experiences, and with a variety of attitudes about the
viability of distance education.
The two much, much weaker sections suffered, in my opinion, because the
instructors were less involved. Increasing the class size necessarily would
limit the discussion one instructor can handle, and I think that might be a
shame. Indeed, one of the most significant issues we debated in the classes was
the "optimal" size of effective online sections, depending on the students
involved, the curriculum, the assignments chosen, and the level of communication
you desire to encourage. There is no one "right" answer here. But I for one
would have felt much more cheated had the instructors played less significant
roles in the classes. And I think our students will feel the same. More than
anything, I fear that class sizes for online courses will be "set" higher by
administrators who have never taught, nor even taken, an online course, and who
have no understanding of the power and benefit of facilitiated communications.
Jeff also asked a great question about synchronous delivery modes, and their
value in distance education. Here, he is right on the money, because the
four-course sequence offered by CSUH was strictly asynchronous. There were
opportunities for synchronous contact, and indeed in a couple of courses we used
chat rooms to facilitate group papers, but that was optional. However, one
course did encourage students to explore new technologies, and a few of us went
after synchronous modes. I personally have become tremendously interested in
the power of a multi-user object oriented discussion, and wish that we could
have incorporated much more about MOOs and other synchronous vehicles. I hope
that CSUH amends its curriculum as it evolves, and hopefully the comments from
my classmates who braved the first series will be taken into account.
I would not want to paint too rosy a picture for everyone; I found two courses
less than satisfying, there were significant technical problems in one of the
classes that almost crippled it from the start, one of the instructors was
virtually (sorry) unreachable. The classes required a significant time
commitment. In short, the experience was REAL! I learned much about what NOT
to do in my online classes from these problems, and although I would hope future
students have an easier time, I don't feel the overall experience was negative.
The series has helped me in many ways. I am much more cognizant of current
research around the globe in online learning. I became much more aware of the
diversity of student learning styles and how online educators can effectively
architect classes that are accessible to that range of students. I am a much
better teacher and mentor to colleagues at my campus because of what I learned
from my virtual classmates in collaborative assignments and discussions. And I
must have 1,000 bookmarks of absolutely stellar papers, websites, online
classes, resources, and cool tools.
Now all I need is the time to update my online classes, an administration
enlightened enough to see the value of online education for helping on-campus as
well as distant students, and a realistic, ongoing budget for the training,
equipment, and support required to create and maintain program excellence.
I hope the above is of some use, and I would be more than happy to provide more
detail to any of you with additional questions.
Sincerely,
Scott
--
Scott Hildreth
Astronomy & Physics
Chabot College
25555 Hesperian Blvd.
Hayward, CA 94545
(510) 786-6882
(510) 728-9514 box 2# voicemail
shil...@ed.clpccd.cc.ca.us
http://astro.clpccd.cc.ca.us/astrdept
__o
_`\<,_
___________________(_)/ (_)____________
Phil Rasmussen
I do disagree with his statements on cost. Yes as an individual I feel the
fees for the most part are high, but when looking closely at them and other
fees incurred they are low. There is something on the net called The Distance
Education Calculator. The url is extremely long but you can point at it from
http://cww.cpcc.cc.nc.us. When you go to this site click on Things to Know
and then look on the left hand side of the screen. Running the calculator
brings cost into focus some.
I do agree with his statement on synchronous requirements of onloine courses.
However Mr. Cooper may not be fully aware of the problems that colleges and
universities have resolving the seat time issue within their own organizations
but also with state legislators for those who are state supported, and with
accrediting agencies. There still needs to be a big paradigm shift for those
who are not yet into technology and its possibilities. The bean counters as I
refer to "them" as have to find and accept new approaches but as they say it
is hard to teach old dogs new tricks.
Phil Rasmussen
College Without Walls
Al Byers
worker. Original comments included at bottom of this email.
Comment regarding the part time (9 months) term of school teachers.
I've been observing this listserv for several months and have gleaned
valuable information from discussions that have taken place. I must take
exception to comments at bottom of email regarding the "part time" nature
applied to public school teachers. While the author below says they know of
several teachers earning 60-80K, this in most cases is not the norm. Pay of
this magnitude is typically found only in the New England region of the
country, and among those who have been teaching a significant number of
years (20+). I cannot put my hand on the exact statistic now, but starting
pay and average salary for teachers on a national scale is significantly
less that those in the business sector.
As to the point of just 9 months work....this is probably one of the
biggest misnomers among non teachers. Having been a public school teacher,
we received enumeration for only 9 1/2 months of work, and not 12. Even
though time off is granted during Christmas break as well, these are unpaid
leave days. Truth be known, most public school systems provide no teacher
paid vacation, regardless of years of service. We have no paid vacation.
There were however 2 business days a year one could choose to take a leave
of absence...but this could not be taken as an add on to an existing leave
period like Christmas break. Also, the benefit contributions by the school
system are traditionally not paid over the summer time, so this expense is
born by the teacher.
Bottom line:. Teachers work harder in those 9 months -if they are dedicated
and sincere about their work -than any other similar profession. I say this
from experience, having led a successful 10 year career in the banking
industry prior to following my calling to use my B.S and masters degree in
science education.I elected to cut my salary by more than half to hopefully
"give something back and make a difference". Good teachers are the salt of
the earth. How much is it worth to:
1. plan and facilitate up to 3 separate lessons on a day-to-day day basis
for different grades with exciting hands-on activities
2. adjust these original plans for accommodations for special education
students
3. Provide numerous opportunities for student practice and feedback (many
papers/projects to review in the evening
4. Keep parents apprised of student learning and behavior with phone calls
in the evening or weekends
5. Work every day usually given only 20 minutes to eat lunch, while also
monitoring the lunchroom
6. Give of your time and sponsor a club, after school activity, or
intramural sport for no extra income
7. Do the extra work and logistics to take 100 students on a field trip to
somewhere like Lurray Caverns for an enrichment experience
8. Serve on one of several mandatory school committees and/or represent the
school as the teacher representative to the county public senate body
9. Your day is exciting, and extremely rewarding when you affect the future
of a child (that's why good teachers teach), but extremely hectic. Imagine
your day being scripted every minute, to the bell, such that you even have
to plan your bathroom break time-and it must occur in the three minutes
between classes. This is not the case with most white collar business jobs.
Many teachers do all of what I described above on a routine basis.
Regarding the fact they should not be paid attending training, nothing
could be more degrading. When teaching I took my summers and acquired part
time work to supplement the starting pay of a new teacher (a salary that is
frozen...no increase for the first 3 years-regardless of job performance).
In addition to this, I volunteered to take classes from the local college
to keep myself up to date professionally, out of my own pocket.
But, in the state of Virginia, they mandate that teachers acquire so many
credits or recertification points to remain current in their field (a good
thing), but do not provide any monetary incentive to do this. Go figure. I
know from private industry, that many business encourage life-long learning
and continued education, and proivde monetary incentives or even total
reimbursement of course fees if a "B" or higher is earned. This is not the
case with public school teachers, yet they are mandated to spend their own
money to take classes when they are on unpaid leave. I love my profession,
and enjoyed the summer time to take classes, it's just a shame the facts
are not more encouraging. Bottom line, if offered no paid vacation, and
then be mandated to remain professionally current- all during our unpaid
leave time, sure we should be remunerated for our time. This in effect
keeps the system vibrant with an influx of new ideas, or maintaining the
necessary existing ones.
My intention toward the author below is not malice by any means, and I
apologize for getting on my soap box. But now being temporarily out of the
teaching profession (earning Ph.D. in instructional technology), I feel the
author was expressing opinions from a standpoint of limited scope and
experience with respect to the education profession on a national level. I
say this having been elected "Teacher of the Year" for my school prior to
departing from the public school system. I then served 3 years as an
Aerospace Education Specialist for the NASA Goddard Space Flight Center,
conducting school programs and teacher enhancement workshops throughout the
northeastern US (Maryland to Maine), in addition to working with State DOE
for Maine, VT, and CT aligning NASA support curriculum to state systemic
standards of learning. I'd welcome further comments either pro or con
regarding these and any prior email comments.
In conclusion: Microsoft has a way to go if this is the attitude their
workforce is putting forth on an national listserv.
Original Comments:
>I work for one of the largest Microsoft Authorized Educational Centers in
>the world. Every day, I come across the problems of student participation.
>It is DEFINITELY a BIG problem.
>
> Companies that pay for training out of their budget, have charged back
>students that have had a reserved seat and did not show. This ABSOLUTELY
>works. Companies have catered a lunch affair and we have performed a "tips
>& tricks" seminar. Two days of training was equal to a 1/2 day off.....and
>there are many more.
> I have two teachers in my family. They have off for three months
>out of each year and are making between 65k to 80k per year. I don't agree
>with the theory of paying the teachers more money to get educated which will
>allow them to perform their proper job task. Why not save that "extra"
>money and improve the total school system?
>Making a teachers salary in a decent school is not a bad part time job.
>Part time, as to 9 months instead of the usual 12. Think of how the entire
>American workforce would feel, if they all had the same schedule.
>Still...there would always be a few complainers.
>
>A. Genovese
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>DEOS-L is a service provided to the Distance Education community by
>The American Center for the Study of Distance Education, The Pennsylvania
>State University. Opinions expressed are those of DEOS-L subscribers,
>and do not constitute endorsement of any opinion, product, or service by
>ACSDE or Penn State.
_____________________________________________
Al Byers
Ph.D Candidate-Instructional Technology
Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
<http://www.chre.vt.edu/admin/IT/>
NASA Graduate Student Research Program
a...@specialts.net, aby...@vt.edu
Hme: 540-953-7095
Barbalee Blair
Thank you, Jeff Cooper, for responding to the post from A. Genovese so
effectively for all of us who are "average" teachers. For some strange
reason, at 10 pm Sunday evening after spending 4 hours grading papers
AND after going to bed at 1 am after chaperoning a dance the previous
night, this post rather worked my dander up! But I nonetheless feel
absolutely compelled to add another voice, one that happens to be only
semi-literate in computer-ese and is doing the best she can to learn
what my students need to know. That is why I rarely participate in this
list; I'm here to learn.
Yes, there are, amazingly enough, companies who do pay people to learn.
Believe it or not, there are even companies who pay tuition for
employees to go back and get advanced degrees! Were educational
institutions able to do so, many more of us would be spending time
getting the degrees and therefore earning higher salaries. Sadly, though
schools are in the business of promoting education, there are no
incentives for their teachers to do what they are teaching their
students to do. Odd, isn't it? Within my family budget, I find it
difficult to justify paying a substitute to do the on-site portion of my
job while I am at a conference especially when I have to work up all the
lesson plans for my absence and grade all the work my students are
assigned.
I wish I had time off in the summer. I wonder when I could find the
time to plan new course work if school were in session year-round. This
last summer, I was assigned to re-writing the curriculum for my school's
English department - unpaid, of course. I wasn't in my classroom from
8-5, but my computer was sure kickin' at night! It might be noted, too,
that schools don't provide teachers with computers for this sort of
extra work. They just provide the work!
I have been teaching in the same school system for over 20 years. I just
this year hit 35,000. And that is with sponsoring all our school
publications, for which I receive a stipend, so I am more highly paid
than most of our other teachers. I would be tickled chartreuse (or some
such color) to receive a $200.00 raise! We did see 1.5% last year,
however, and that was a very big deal!
Many teachers of my generation (I graduated in 1977) never saw a
computer in the course of our formal education to receive a teaching
degree. How do you suppose it is possible I have picked up the skills
without some re-education of myself? By osmosis, perhaps? But I must
admit I've learned a lot of what I know from my students themselves.
This is not a condemnation of myself. I live in a rural area where the
closest campus is 2 1/2 hours away. How could I learn otherwise? And now
it is suggested that it's not the American way to get ahead by hard
work? Wow, am I misguided. Somehow I grew up thinking that hard work
equalled achievement. And achievement, in our society, is aligned with a
paycheck I thought. Hm....am I missing something here? Is that why
teachers are, in my poor opinion, underpaid?
However, Jeff, I must take exception with one point: I am a 20+ year
professional. I do want further skills in many areas, including
incorporating technology in my classroom. It's just awfully hard to
figure out how to acquire it!
As that old-timer, I will further comment that while I make good use of
computer software programs in my classroom, I have not done well in
incorporating the net. Of course, that could be due to the slight
problem of only one computer in my room and no networking, so in our
case it's one phone line for the entire building. If anyone is on the
net, no one else is. Slightly difficult to say the least!
Barbalee Blair
Clayton High School
snbb...@nedcomm.nm.org
fjh
Frank Antonucci which adjusted k-12 teacher contract salaries for the value
of their benefits and found they moved upward about 7 percent. I did the
same analysis on local high school teachers and concluded the average
contract was 'worth' over $50k. Remember the actual 'value' of a teaching
contract is enhanced enormously by what is widely recognized as the BEST
health/mental health/dental health insurance plan and the BEST retirement
package in Maine--?do you know what a 'golden parachute' is? When I did a
differential pay analysis, separating out non-teaching hours from classroom
hours using the principals class schedule and the union contract; I found
the hourly rate for classroom teaching was about $55/hr. When EDWEEK
launched TEACHER magazine they proudly announced it was aimed at teachers
making over $70k a year. And then there is the matter of non contract
employment, esp. since the contract up here runs only 180 days. A lot of
k-12 teachers work after school and on week ends, many staff summer camps or
run family businesses in the summer, some have sales jobs, etc. The missing
research is a study of income tax returns for teachers to determine the
average supplemental income. If one is to regard teaching as a profession,
one also has to discount professional expenses which are picked up by the
employer. Teacher contracts are so structured that the employing school
district will require a master's degree, pay for it, and then the pay rate
steps up appreciably afterwards. A professional would forgo income to attain
advanced degrees, etc.; while teachers, graciously assisted by their
self-serving unions, get paid, released time, free tuition, and more money
when completed.
The net result is a growing awarenes of the inherent wealth in teaching and
how really lucrative it is. I'd suggest you stop reading the NEA/AFT
propaganda and take a hard look at teaching contracts, benefit schedules,
etc. for your local school district. Remember, in some heavily unionized
states like New Jersey, k-12 teachers making over $100k annually is not
uncommon. The irony is that there is a shortage of substitutes, and schools
are having to raise their paltry $35/day for subs---that's about $7/hr.
Subs aren't unionized, teachers are.
fjh.
-----Original Message-----
From: maureen cahill <c...@PILOT.INFI.NET>
To: DEO...@LISTS.PSU.EDU <DEO...@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Date: Monday, December 07, 1998 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [DEOS] Teachers Avoiding the Net
>I am usure where and in what subject area your relatives teach; but I can
>assure that the large majority of teachers in the US make nowhere near 65k
>to 80k per year. That includes 20 - 30 year veterans. Nor do most teachers
>work "9 months" as you erroneously believe. With very few exceptions,
>teachers pay for their own classes, seminars, and conferences. Where in
>the corporate world is this common practice. Your comments reflect a gross
>overgeneralization.
>
>To eliminate such bias, I invite you to join the workforce as a teacher for
>one year. I doubt that you would continue to honestly maintain that
>teachers are paid between 65 and 85K and work only 9 months per year.
>
>MACahill
>
>----------
>> From: stray <st...@OPTONLINE.NET>
>> To: DEO...@LISTS.PSU.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [DEOS] Teachers Avoiding the Net
>> Date: Friday, December 04, 1998 12:40 AM
>>
>> I work for one of the largest Microsoft Authorized Educational Centers in
>> the world. Every day, I come across the problems of student
>participation.
>> It is DEFINITELY a BIG problem.
>>
>> Companies that pay for training out of their budget, have charged
>back
>> students that have had a reserved seat and did not show. This ABSOOULTY
>> works. Companies have catered a lunch affair and we have performed a
>"tips
>> & tricks" seminar. Two days of training was equal to a 1/2 day
>off.....and
>> there are many more.
>> I have two teachers in my family. They have off for three months
>> out of each year and are making between 65k to 80k per year. I don't
>agree
>> with the theory of paying the teachers more money to get educated which
>will
>> allow them to perform their proper job task. Why not save that "extra"
>> money and improve the total school system?
>> Making a teachers salary in a decent school is not a bad part time job.
>> Part time, as to 9 months instead of the usual 12. Think of how the
>entire
>> American workforce would feel, if they all had the same schedule.
>> Still...there would always be a few complainers.
>>
>> A. Genovese
>>
deos moderator
With respect to Jeff's comments on the CSU Hayward program in online
teaching and learning (see his comments below), let me offer a corrective.
The "sample" virtual classroom that Jeff saw on the web was taken from one
of the PRE-sessions we use to allow students to become familiar with the
interface. The class topics (for example, "Receiving and Reading to Notes"
and "Joining Meetings") are NOT part of the program. They are part of the
knowledge a student must have to BEGIN the program. We provide this
introduction for students who need it.
Moreover, the sample classroom is nothing like the actual classrooms
students experience as part of the program since this pre-class consists
only of information from the trainer (who is NOT one of CSU Hayward's
online instructors) and no conversation from students. It would not be
possible to offer a screenshot of an actual class because that would
violate the privacy of both students and professor.
I hope that this dissipates some of the confusion that arose concerning
this "sample" class.
peggy lant
Special Assistant in Online Programs
CSU Hayward
Maggie McVay
situation of most teachers. I've lived and worked in six states
(California, Oregon, Utah, Mississippi, Virginia, and Ohio) in both
private industry and in teaching. I did NOT know of anyone in public
education (k-12) making 60-80K as a teacher. Administrators might make
that salary, but not teachers as a norm. I do know of some community
college and university-level professors making this type of salary, and
that is usually accomplished by teaching overload classes.
Mr. Byers, you have the right attitude for teaching and describing the
work. From reading your resopnse, I am confident you will have the
opportunity to bring that attitude to Instructional Technology and
impact this field positively. I would certainly put forth your resume
with our institution. We value teachers who put student-centered
learning first and work to develop quality instruction.
As a side note: I would NOT paint Microsoft employees with the same
brush as the A. Genovese of the previous post. Working for a "Microsoft
Authorized Educational Center" does not say anything about Microsoft's
knowledge of the individuals who work there or of the company's
policies. To become an "authorized educational center" is more a matter
of entering into a marketing agreement with Microsoft (just like a
retail store would do) and having some level of expertise in software
instruction -- it is not directly affiliated with Microsoft Corporation.
--
Maggie McVay
Faculty, Distance Education
Franklin University
(614) 220-8943
Barbalee Blair
>
adjusted k-12 teacher contract salaries for the value
> of their benefits and found they moved upward about 7 percent.
Our legislators authorized 7 percent in NM. In the end, however, in my
district, it ended up at 1.5%.
I did the
> same analysis on local high school teachers and concluded the average
> contract was 'worth' over $50k.
Yes, we do have good benefits. However, they are certainly not 'better'
than in corporate America. Remember, some of us live in rural America.
In rural America, an HMO type health plan, which is what state insurance
authority plans use, relegates us to either jumping off-plan or going
out of town for medical care, which certainly increases the cost.
Additionally, retirement in this state is an overall state-employee
plan, not special to education. I will, however, comment that teachers
DO have tax advantages in 403(b) funds. The good use of these, however,
requires monthly additions to the plan. Sometimes tough for a single mom
of 3 sons to come up with, lemme tell ya!
As to unionization. This part of rural America wouldn't touch a union
with a ten-foot pole! The issue came to a vote last year in my district.
TWO votes were received for considering unionization. No one else wanted
to even consider the possibility (including me). I can't comment on
Maine; I only know my little corner of the world. I can guarantee you
that even after 20+ years, I'm not even approaching $55/hr.
If one is to regard teaching as a profession,
> one also has to discount professional expenses which are picked up by the
> employer.
Excuse me? I don't know about elsewhere, or maybe my superintendent is
lying to me, but according to him, it is illegal in NM for the school to
pay, in any way, for schooling, either in the form of continuing
education or advanced degrees. Schools are paid here on a T&E formula
(in part) - meaning training and experience indexes. Yes, schools
receive more funding for teachers with advanced degrees; that's why
teachers with advanced degrees receive raises. That's the incentive for
teachers to go back to school. In our case, were I to go back to school,
it would cost me between 8-12,000 in tuition alone to be rewarded by a
$780.00 raise per year. I should live long enough to recoup my costs?
A professional would forego income to obtain advanced degrees, etc.;
while teachers, graciously assisted by their
> self-serving unions, get paid, released time, free tuition, and more money
> when completed.
Try again! a)no union b)no pay c)no release time d)no tuition e)yes,
more money ($780.00 per year) when completed. Four out of five misses!
There's something wrong with this equation.
I'd suggest you stop reading the NEA/AFT
> propaganda and take a hard look at teaching contracts, benefit schedules, etc.
for your local school district.
ACK! Sounds to me like maybe I should start! I don't read 'em, won't
read 'em, and don't believe you've looked at "life from both sides now."
Sorry 'bout that.
Remember, in some heavily unionized
> states like New Jersey, k-12 teachers making over $100k annually is not
> uncommon.
May be true there; I wouldn't know. I have first-hand information that
that's not true here. Absolute fact: I bring home, after 20 years of
teaching, $1947.00 per month. I'm making a lot more than some, no
denying. But I, frankly, resent the thought that I am overpaid for my 7
1/2 hour day/180 day a year contract.
The irony is that there is a shortage of substitutes, and schools
> are having to raise their paltry $35/day for subs---that's about $7/hr.
> Subs aren't unionized, teachers are.
From my angle, you got 50% here. True, non-degreed subs here get $35.00
a day; those with a BA or better get a paltry $40.00. Not good enough, I
agree. But there's not a union teacher here, either!
>
Back to the original thread, though. The teachers I know don't avoid the
net, don't avoid learning, don't avoid attacking the problems with our
educational systems and profession. We just often don't know how to
begin!
Barbalee Blair
FJH
have a master's degree, but in Brunswick, if you get hired they will pay for
the Master's degree. NM is $29k and Me is $31k, but sounds like our fringes
might be better----our winter, hey it's 50 out and people are washing their
cars. Love that global warming! Brunswick is a relatively high income area,
esp. with BIW, BNAS, Bowdoin College and LL Beans around us. But that only
makes it worse for the struggling natives and people at the bottom who've
been here for generations.
I should post my spreadsheet on the teacher's salaries for BHS, but few
would be able to read it. It is accurate but a few years old, they've only
gone up in the meantime. Remember tenure and longevity only push up salaries
and we are due for a large turnover in teachers in Maine. Because of the
lucrative retirement plan, a super can get a teacher to retire early by
bumping their pay up in the last year. The 'golden parachute' opens and the
teacher retires at that figure, the district gets rid of that mythical 'dead
wood', and the taxpayer gets stuck with the cost of the hit on the
retirement fund.
There are a lot of rural school districts, but because of school funding
equalization formulas many rural areas pay close to what suburban areas pay
since the state is kicking in so much. This really drives a lot of local
taxpayers crazy since the teacher pay to local pay disparity may be three
times as much. Your use of "corporate" America is a bit deceptive when you
start talking about rural areas where there may be one or two factories and
a the closest they come to corporate America is a shopping mall----and we
all know how lucrative working at Walmarts and Burger King is.
My wife is a health care provider and we don't have a plan that comes even
close to the teacher's package---no-one does, private or corporate.
Downsizing, etc. have greatly whittled down fringes. Forget what you see in
the movies, in the real world it's contract employees, at -home workers,
etc. There is little security in corporate America and Maine is full of
people who've been kicked out the door of their company. We also have long
time Maine businesses which provided all kinds of benefits for both the
community and the workers having to move because of global competition. GH
BASS left Wilton earlier this year and people cried openly when they heard
the news. Generations of people worked there.
Well, enough of this. There is a real strong undercurrent of resentment by
average people, people who've been downsized, people on fixed incomes and
people whose kids aren't making it in public kids. Teacher's salaries, let
alone administrative salaries are now a major sore spot in many local
communities. Even COLA's are being put on the chopping block.
There are a lot of jobs open in Maine---esp. subs. Check out the PPH at
http://www.portland.com/home.shtml and the Bangor Daily News for openings. I
hear private practice social workers have nearly vanished from NM and some
have moved BACK to Maine because of managed care pressures.
fjh.
Liz Johnson 898-5374
"corporate " salaries is unrealistic. Most people with degrees also do not make
corporate salaries and from where we sit teacher pay and benefits are better
than we can ever aspire to.
Liz Johnson
MTSU
Eugene D. Rubin
there wasn't a comprehensive list of institutions that offered Masters,
Diplomas and Certificates in Distance Education. (Note that these are
institutions that offer programs that have distance education as its
subject matter, not necessarily as a means of delivery)
I have begun compiling such a list, although I am sure that it is not
comprehensive. I have included it below.
I would appreciate it if any of you have additional programs that you think
should be added to the list. Please post it to the listserve or mail it to
me directly at <eru...@nova.umuc.edu> and I will post the completed list.
Masters, Diploma, and Certificate Programs in Distance Education
________________________________________________________________
Nova Southeastern University - M.S. and Ed.D. Programs in Instructional
Technology and Distance Education.
Athabasca University - Master of Distance Education (MDE)
British Open University - Masters and Postgraduate Certificate and Diploma
in Open and Distance Education
University of Southern Queensland - Certificate and Masters in Open and
Distance Learning University of London - MA and Postgraduate Diploma in
Distance education
UMBC - ISD Training Systems - Certificate in Distance Learning
University of Wisconsin - Distance Education Professional Development
Certificate Program
Distance Learning at Indiana University - Certificate in Distance Education
Texas A&M -The Center for Distance Learning Research - Distance Learning
Certificate Programs and Courses
State University of West Georgia - Distance Education Certificate Program
University of California at Hayward Online Teaching Certificate
University of British Columbia - Certificate in Technology-Based
Distributed Learning
__________________________________________________________________
| |
| Eugene Rubin <eru...@nova.umuc.edu> |
| Associate Dean - Distance Education |
| Graduate School of Management and Technology |
| University of Maryland University College TEL 301-985-7075 |
| College Park, Maryland 20742-1616 FAX 301-985-7845 |
|__________________________________________________________________|