F2B Fly-off Format Change?

[Peter G]

Dear members of the F2B Working Group

from the updated summary of responses on my relatedt inquiry I
have found that 16 Group members have chosen to comment on the
issue of possibly changing the Fly-off procedure.

As I am of the opinion that Bruno Delor's letter, being addressed to
the Subcommittee right after the 2008 W/C, needs to be answerd by the
S/C within appropriate time, I strongly suggest that our Group
provides the F2 Subcommittee with our point of view as soon as
practicable.

May I therefore suggest that you once more evaluate the pro's and
con's of the suggested changes and that you express your opinion here
on this new platform?

Initially, it would serve the purpose of discussions to follow best if
we could first
find out whether a change at all would be appreciated or not.

Thank you and kind regards

[Joan]

There is strong support for the continuation of the current
qualification rounds, and the selection of the top 15 fliers. However,
in the light of the suggested need to shorten the finals, perhaps 2
rounds each for the top 15 with best flight to count, and then the top
5 (or 3 ) of these contestants could perhaps fly 3 flights with the
best 2 to decide the Championships. The fliers have generally been
happy with the existing format, but we are flexible.
We do not support the suggestion of the draw being predetermined by
previous position. We strongly support the continuation of a random
draw for each round.

Kind Regards,
Joan.

[Peter G]

Do we need void flights in final rounds?

Before actually trying to define the maximum number of flights and the
proceedings on finals day, I do believe that we must first debate
whether F2B Fly-off participants really do need the advantage of
having an extra (void) flight in case of, for example, a bad engine
run or unfavorable weather. While this does make sense in the
qualifying rounds, I question the need for such flights in finals. As
it was mentioned by Dr. Laird Jackson before on October 16 08, I too
am of the opinion that the best flyers are able to minimise the risk
of engine (or other...) problems and that the organisers should be
able to group participants so they can enjoy similar weather
conditions. After all, finals is just what it means; the very best,
back-to-back. With today’s reliable equipment (such as electrics),
there is no longer a need to make allowances for bad luck. Or, to put
it in another way, why should a formula one driver get a restart when
his engine blows in the last lap?

Please share you thoughts of a finals format whithout void flights,
i.e. a number of final rounds with decreasing number of participants
having on flight per round only.

> > Thank you and kind regards- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Peter G]

It has come to may attention that I may have missed to explain where
the question of whether to change the fly-off format or not came from.
Here is an attempt to summarize the issue and its origin:

The number of flights (54) to be judged in a single day over three
session of 2:45 hrs each is, as I assume, a bit much for the judges.
Yes, a similar workload can happen in the qualifying rounds, too, but
I could imagine that when it comes to define the Champion(s) among the
best in a final, the potential risk of judge fatigue needs to be
minimized wherever possible.

The running of three final rounds of 15, (plus 3 juniors) is, for
both spectators and competitors, not really a culminating final event.
Instead, it is is just the flying of another couple of rounds which,
typically, overlaps the true final events over at the F2C and D
circles.

The fact that the total duration of 3 x 15 plus juniors may be a
problem for organisers is of some concern, but I do not believe that
this alone would justify a change.

All of the above was mentioned earlier in a paper published by Dr.
Laird Jackson a couple of years back and when the subject came up
again in Bruno Delor’s letter from last year, I decided to bring it to
the attention of the F2B Working Group. Here is where we stand today
and the Group is now invited to disscuss options:

- Reducing the risk of suboptimal judging of finalists caused by
fatigue.

- Leading to a more competitive fly-off format culminating in a true
„Grand Final“ of the very best.

- Reducing the total amount of time required for all flights on finals
day.

Thank you for contributing and regards, Peter Germann

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[go_s...@comcast.net]

All,

I believe the WC's are for the competitors, not the spectators, and as such, everything should be done to level the playing field for them. We finally have two circles to qualify on in four days, as opposed to two flights spread over three or four days (as in the past). If it is a burnout issue for the judges, then reduce the final field to 10, and fly three filghts and take the best two. This does as much as possible to minimize impacts due to weather.

 

Paul Walker

[Peter G]

Reducing the number of those participating in the finals is of course
very efficient. On the other side you may want to consider the fact
that “making it in the final” is for many of us, including me I gladly
admit, a once in a lifetime goal. From this, it is probably safe to
assume that attempts to cut the number of finalists will not be really
popular among those instructing their sub-committee member to vote on
a related proposal.

[Peter G]

On march 7, replying to Paul Walker's post from march 5, Warren Tiahrt
posted the text below and I took the liberty to transfer Warren's
reply to this discussion here:

Quote:
I can understand why one might want to reduce the number of finals
flights and eliminate the third flight to reduce the judges' load.
However, the weather conditions that can and do vary considerably
during the day can make the "luck of the draw" a factor that has more
to do with the results than the skill of the pilot.
I still favor reducing the number of finalists to ten. I seriously
doubt that a competitor that has qualified between eleventh and
fifteenth has ever moved to a podium position. Currently, I feel the
11th trhough 15th places provide bragging rights only that they
qualified for the finals. They are still eleventh through fifteenth.
Warren Tiahrt
End of quote

Peter Germann

On 5 Mar, 20:44, go_st...@comcast.net wrote:

[Peter G]

Responding to Warren Tiarth's comment below, Dr. Laird Jackson has
addressed the F2B Working Group via e-mail as follows:

Quote:

Warren - The "luck of the draw" has the potential to affect any flight
at any time and can be just as effective in this regard during
qualifying as in finals participation. Its effect is not just seen in
stunt (Precision Aerobatic Model Aircraft) flying - it is seen in
other sports as well. A sprinter can be in a fast heat where a
competitor luckily anticipates the gun and is out of the blocks just
enough ahead to relegate another competitor to the out of progression
group. Or a young runner allowed entry because of sympathy for her
age and country of origin might be allowed into the Olympics with a
quick change of passport and then given permission to run barefoot -
followed by an unintentional and unknowing sharp cut-in in front of
the favorite whose entire running success is predicated on adherence
to pace and a plan - and suddenly the unintentional foul (it was
interpreted as "racing luck") upsets all that (think Mary Decker - LA
- 1984). It happens at all times in all places. Decker was never a
runner-as-competitor and she could not rise to that unintended
challenge and will not be remembered as the kind of resilient champion
as, for example, Mal Whitfield in 1948/52 (later with outstanding
service to our government helping underserved youth in Africa).
Nothing is perfect and a more challenging flyoff format will not
punish our flyers any worse than the present system and is likely to
be better for the true champions among them: better judging with less
stressed and tired judges; better ranking by the judges because they
get to see the good flyers adjacent to each other; better reward for
the consistent and hard-working flyers because their ongoing success
rewards them with the better positions as the flyoff proceeds; etc etc
- there is no real downside here only an imagined one because we are
not "thinking anew" (as Lincoln once said in Pennsylvania).

For heaven's sake - it is used and works in nearly every major sport;
it provides the spectator with an actual view of the competition and
not just the off-chance that they might walk by and see the winning
flight (which might actually have occurred hours or even days before
the finals conclude. Let's get our heads out of the sand and put
competition at the forefront in our beloved event.

with apologies to all - doc (sorry you thought I had retired and gone
away didn't you?)

PS - for those too young to know - try Googling "Mal Whitfield" and
you will read of impressive accomplishment on and off the track - I
was once privileged to watch his running shorts (and other parts)
disappear not-so-slowly into the distance while running (think of the
term loosely) a leg of a 2 mile relay (880 yards - 800 meters nowadays
- was Whitfield's best distance) in which we both happened to run the
second leg so I did not start much behind him - where I finished and
passed the baton to the 3rd leg runner is another story. Whitfield
was having fun on a relaxed day of conditioning - I was struggling.

End of quote

My dear friends, I do believe the above is verw well worth
consideration by discussion among those wishing to bring our forward
our common cause and I am looking forward to hear from you on this
platform.

Peter Germann

[aage wiberg]

Dear members of F2B group.

3 flights per pilot gives better possibility to find the ranking. We all
know how many possibilities there are for a bad flight from unstable air to
sharp sun in face and all sorts of technical problems. Reduction of
contestants only if it is a serious problem for judges to watch 45 flights.

Fly off is the best day of W.Ch. The lesser pilots the lesser excitement.

Greetings

Aage Wiberg

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: f2b-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:f2b-...@googlegroups.com] På vegne
af Peter G
Sendt: 16. marts 2009 15:15
Til: F2B Group
Emne: Re: F2B Fly-off Format Change?

[Peter G]

To all: Fly-off without void flights?

As making it into the finals is of great importance for all flyers I
doubt it very much that any attempt trying to reduce the number of
finalists could make its way through the voting in the F2 sub-
committee. Instead, a solution where the fly-off format allows more
contestants to be in the finals may stand a much better chance to be
accepted. However, considering the need for lesser flights to avoid
judges fatigue and limit weather influence this can only come at the
price of eliminating void flights in the finals (NOT in the
qualification rounds)

Presuming that the world’s best 20 F2B flyers would be willing and
able to compete for the title by flying, on finals day, a number of
rounds without void flights, this is how a finals day could be run:

Best 20 from qualification rounds:
Senior first semifinal of 20, one flight, (3:09 hrs.) Short break
after 8.

Break (0:30 hrs) 30

Best 10 from first semifinal:
Senior second semifinal of 10, one flight, (1:30 hrs)

Break (0:30 hrs) 30

Junior Final of 3, one flight. (0:30 hrs)

Break (0:30 hrs)

Best 4 from second semifinal:
Senior Grand Final of 4, one flight (0:36 hrs)

Total
Total flyers: 23 (20 seniors + 3 juniors) /
Total flights to be judged: 37
Total judging time: 5:36 hrs
Total judge break time: 1:40 hrs.
Total time required: 6:45 hrs

Remark: Properly timed by the organisers, an F2B Senior Grand Final of
four could become as much an attractive key event, for both
competitors and the media, as today the F2C and F2D finals are (In
which, by the way, the participants have one flight only)

Please comment.

On 5 Mar, 20:44, go_st...@comcast.net wrote:

[go_s...@comcast.net]

I still am not in favor of not having a throw away flight. Your example of F2D and F2C is not applicable here. They fly at the same time, thus the weather conditions are exactly the same for both. That is the problem with F2B. They never fly at the same time.

This past year in Landres was a fine example of luck of the draw. The wind conditions were never the same and your score was a function of the conditions more than was the flying skill portion.  Limiting it to two flights where both count could eliminate a top competitior.

I would still propose that we keep 15 finalists, and have the Junior flyoff on the second circle with another set of judges. Take the best four judges for the senior finals, and the lower two for the juniors. That way they will be in parallel, as opposed to series, as it is now. The time is then for 45 flights only.

[Peter G]

Published on behalf of Stefan Kraszewski:

Quote:

I'm sorry. I dont really understand, how to asses judges: the best and
the lower ones? Comparing scores from running competition, or the
previous one?
How to account scores from four or two judges, insted of five or
three?

Best regards, Stefan Kraszewski

End of quote

[Warren Tiahrt]

I don't see anything wrong with what Paul proposes since as previously stated the goal of qualifying is very much a part of the contest for many competitors.

Warren Tiahrt

[Peter G]

While the idea of flying the junior final on the second circle is
worthwile to be considered, one has to remember that the Code allows
the running of F2B World Championships on a single circle, too.
("Files" Sporting Code, page 18: 4.2.8. Number of Rounds).

[Roger Ladds]

Hi All
Speaking firstly as a Judge, it seems here that everybody seems to be of the opinion that the Judges are a decrepid old load of f---s that cannot stand for a full days work!! has anybody considered polling the Judges to see what their opinion on the 15 x 3 flights for a fly-off is?, after all it us that have to stand for that whole day and ply our trade, personally I do not have a problem at this time however I may be considered to be one of the younger Judges. I am assuming here the object of this disscusion is to reduce the workload for the Judges and the organiser's.
On the subject of splitting the Judges for the fly-off, how will it be achieved? any system will mean additional work for the organiser's and I thought we were trying to reduce this pressure on the final day! the only system to be used recently was Bruno Delor's analysis but as good as Bruno's analysis was it was only statistics based on a given score and can be read in many different ways depending on your requirement and it takes too long to input the information for that programme. The only other system I am aware of is that used in the USA for grading judges but this has yet to be used outside the US [open for comment here Bill/Paul]
Speaking as the UK Rep, my personal view with regard to the fly-off, which is backed up by the UK contingent, is to leave it as it is, like Paul we say this is a competition to find the worlds finest flyer not a spectacle for spectators. However you look at the various negatives to the current situation it works quite well as it is.It will always be a compromise when you consider what we are trying to achieve so we need to take the path of least resistance.

Regards

Roger Ladds
 

========================================
Message Received: Mar 23 2009, 03:02 PM
From: "Peter G"
To: "F2B Group"
Cc:

Subject: Re: F2B Fly-off Format Change?

While the idea of flying the junior final on the second circle is
worthwile to be considered, one has to remember that the Code allows
the running of F2B World Championships on a single circle, too.
("Files" Sporting Code, page 18: 4.2.8. Number of Rounds).

>   > On 2 Mar, 14:44, Peter G wrote:
>   > > Do we need void flights in final rounds?
>
>   > > Before actually trying to define the maximum number of flights and the
>   > > proceedings on finals day, I do believe that we must first debate
>   > > whether F2B Fly-off participants really do need the advantage of
>   > > having an extra (void) flight in case of, for example, a bad engine
>   > > run or unfavorable weather. While this does make sense in the
>   > > qualifying rounds, I question the need for such flights in finals. As
>   > > it was mentioned by Dr. Laird Jackson before on October 16 08,  I too
>   > > am of the opinion that the best flyers are able to minimise the risk
>   > > of engine (or other...) problems and that the organisers should be
>   > > able to group participants so they can enjoy similar weather
>   > > conditions. After all, finals is just what it means; the very best,
>   > > back-to-back. With today’s reliable equipment (such as electrics),
>   > > there is no longer a need to make allowances for bad luck. Or, to put
>   > > it in another way, why should a formula one driver get a restart when
>   > > his engine blows in the last lap?
>
>   > > Please share you thoughts of a finals format whithout void flights,
>   > > i.e. a number of final rounds with decreasing number of participants
>   > > having on flight per round only.
>

>   > > On 26 Feb, 23:49, Joan wrote:
>
>   > > > There is strong support for the continuation of the current
>   > > > qualification rounds, and the selection of the top 15 fliers. However,
>   > > > in the light of the suggested need to shorten the finals, perhaps 2
>   > > > rounds each for the top 15 with best flight to count, and then the top
>   > > > 5 (or 3 ) of these contestants could perhaps fly 3 flights with the
>   > > > best 2 to decide the Championships. The fliers have generally been
>   > > > happy with the existing format, but we are flexible.
>   > > > We do not support the suggestion of the draw being predetermined by
>   > > > previous position. We strongly support the continuation of a random
>   > > > draw for each round.
>
>   > > > Kind Regards,
>   > > > Joan.
>

[Warren Tiahrt]

My opinion of no void flights remains. Three flights with the best two
counting and onr void flight.
I really don't like the idea of 20 finalists. The qualification flightstake
care of the placings of the non qualifiers. If anything, reduce, not
increase the number of finalists.
Warren

[Peter G]

In line with Warren Tiahrt’s comment from march 24 and considering how
the Sporting Code addresses the Judge fatigue issue:

„4.2.11 Judging (page 20)

In any contest, no judge shall be scheduled to judge more than 50
contest flights or perform a total
of more than 10 hours of judging duty (whichever is the longer) within
any single contest day. This
time shall include the above judges’ calibration flight(s) but does
not include the breaks.“

My question would be, when keeping the current 3 flights / 1 void fly-
off format, how many senior finalists shall we have?

Peter Germann

[go_s...@comcast.net]

I still stand by my earlier position. 15 finalists, 3 flights.  That's 45 total flights. Fly the Junior members on another circle, or after the seniors, with another set of judges.