[f-AA] Champ wheel landing question

[Sam Burke]

I am in need of some input on wheel landing techniques for an L16A with an 85 hp Continental engine.
My experience has been making the gliding approach at 70 mph with about 1200 rpm and with the trim set half way between cruise and full noise-up. As the runway looms up I have been increasing the rpm to around 1400 which allows me to level off a few feet about the runway, then I attempt to drop the rpm and search for the ground. Upon ground contact I apply some forward stick pressure to hold the ship on while I cut the throttle. A bounce will occur at this point and I am not sure why. It seems that I need a micrometer adjustment on the throttle since I must be dropping it back a bit too much just before ground contact.
I have read the "Stick and Rudder" commentary on wheel landings and Wolfgang suggests " when the spot arrives where you want to make ground contact, simply push over forward and plaster the front wheels on. When you feel the ground, keep right on pressing forward on the stick so as to hold the ship on.".
I would appreciate hearing of your experience with regard to the approach, the level off, rpm used, airspeed, trim and touchdown approach.

Regards,
Sam Burke Red Flicker N6404C 1947 L16A C85 engine
_______________________________________________
Aeronca mailing list
Aer...@westmont.edu
http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

[Ryan Lunde]

Sam,

Since in a wheel landing you're flying the plane onto the runway, she still has plenty of lift and will bounce if forced down.  I wheel land with a final approach speed of anywhere from 65-80, but usually 70 is the best. When I level out over the threshold, I hold that attitude and only apply slight AFT pressure as the plane sinks to arrest the sink rate.  Only after the tires make contact do I push forward.  If you push forward at all before contact, a bounce will result.  As for power, I don't usually look at the tach, but I'd say I use only 1-200 rpm over idle.  It can be done without any extra power, but a higher approach speed is needed.  Sometimes, I trim nose down to assist in easing the stick forward, but that's not necessary.  It's all about finesse, very small corrections, and patience.  Many people will have many different ideas on this subject.

-Ryan

[Sam Burke]

Thanks Ryan,

I will try your low rpm approach. What is your aircraft?

Regards,
Sam Burke

[John Rodkey]

My experience is that among the many combinations of speed, power and trim that can result in a good wheel landing, I gravitate toward maintain 60 mph (higher if it's windy), about 1100 rpm and trim set for 80 mph hands-off cruise.  When tires squeak on, letting go of the pressure I've been pulling to have the plane fly 20 mph slower than trimmed results in a nice smooth rise of the tail.

However, one can trim for 65 and 1000 rpm and push forward on contact...  or even trim for 60 mph and decide at the last moment whether you want to go with a wheel landing or a three-point, in case you are decision-averse.  You can even do an aggressive slip, remove the slip and round out just before touchdown and plastering it on.  Might not be pretty, but if you're going into a short field with obstructions prior to the numbers and windy conditions, it might be just the ticket.

There are a large number of combinations of settings and actions that can result in a good wheel landing.  The two biggest factors in success  (success being rated as: no bounce, in control both in yaw and pitch), in my opinion, are the timing of the forward push, and the angle of approach.  If you come down steeply, it's almost guaranteed that you'll bounce.  That's why it's helpful to add a touch more power (the downside being that it requires more runway).  The timing of the push is something that takes a lot of practice.  The tendency is to 1) come in with more speed than necessary 2) come in at a steeper angle than optimal, and 3) push late, after the plane has already hit.  The result of this is a healthy (unhealthy?) bounce.  What you do in the next second or two determines whether you potentially bend metal or not.  If your push has come late enough, you're already on the way down for a second bounce, and if you pull at that point, when you bounce you'll be at a steeper angle, and the PIO will eventually see you digging in your wingtip or  prop or worse.    The thing to do is either 1) go around or 2) maintain the push, and eventually things will sort themselves out on the ground.  It's the push/pull see-saw that is deadly.

I hope this is helpful.  

John

--
John (poobah) Rodkey - N9361E 11AC at Goleta

[Mike Knemeyer]

Hey, Sam you have a L-16A with the longstroke gear??

On 12/3/10, Sam Burke <samb...@verizon.net> wrote:
> I am in need of some input on wheel landing techniques for an L16A with an
> 85 hp Continental engine.

Mike & Melva Knemeyer

[Peter Lapthorne]

G'Day Sam,

I had real problems with wheel landings when I first bought my Chief 18
months ago. Three pointers were no problems, but I could not "pick the spot"
for a wheeler.

Tony Markl helped me no end, and gave me a technique that got me over the
hurdle. I suggest you ask him for a copy of his notes on how to wheel it on.

An observation from a pilot with way fewer hours and landings than most
folks on this group. Your technique of increasing revs and then pulling back
as you "search for the ground" is adding variables that will make things
more difficult.

In the Chief I make my approach for a wheeler at 55 KNOTS (63 mph) at 1200
RPM And then I leave the throttle alone right through the landing until the
wheels are on the ground. I don't cut the throttle until after the stick
goes forward slightly to hold it on. versus 45 KNOTS (50 mph) for a three
pointer. 1200 RPM for a wheeler and whatever full idle is for a three
pointer.

The "flare" and judging was what was really killing me. Could not find the
spot, and that's where Tony's notes really helped me. His technique which
worked beautifully the very first time I tried it was to reach what would be
a flare point and ease the stick back a fraction. Just enough to arrest the
descent, but not enough to change the aircraft attitude. Then back to the
original stick position followed by stick forward no more than an inch then
back to the original position. This steps the aircraft down just a fraction.
IF no ground contact then repeat. Usually no more than 2 - 3 times and the
wheels will squeak on. At that point, stick forward a little, doesn't take
much, and only then does the power come off.

I force myself to stay off teh throttle by using both hands on the wheel
(this is a Chief remember)

The very first time I tried this I nailed the wheeler. And it felt so good I
went around and did another, and another and.... with a great big grin all
over my face.

Since then I have learned a lot more about my Chief and have found that I
can do exactly as above right up to the point of arresting the descent and
then leave it alone. At that point the aircraft is in a level attitude, and
with no further control input it just starts to settle slowly. Then the
wheels squeak on, the stick goes forward and the throttle comes off. I think
Wally (my Chief) lands better on his own than with me trying to help him
along.

Hope that helps. But I recommend you get a copy of Tony's notes. They made a
huge difference for me.

Cheers

Peter L

-----Original Message-----
From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On
Behalf Of Sam Burke
Sent: Saturday, 4 December 2010 5:40 AM
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Cc: Sam Burke
Subject: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question

[Mark PETERSON]

The most poetic turn of phrase came from the late Augie Wegner.... when wheel landing, "brush it on like a paint brush on canvas".....

> From: samb...@verizon.net
> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 10:39:46 -0800
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> CC: samb...@verizon.net

> Subject: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question
>

[Sam Burke]

Thanks John,

Lets look at our different wheel landing techniques;

John
1100 rpm
Trim for 80 mph at this rpm
Airspeed 60 mph
Ease off back stick pressure upon wheel touchdown

Sam
1400 rpm
Trim between cruise and full nose up (about 80 mph at this rpm)
Airspeed 70 mph (not looking at airspeed indicator) looking at nose attitude
Adjust rpm to level off
push forward upon wheel contact

John,
I think my technique uses much more runway than yours, I will try yours. Do you know what your sink rate is at about 400 ft, I think I am around 600 ft/min.

Regards,
Sam

[Sam Burke]

Hi Mike,

Yes I have an L16A with a no-bounce gear, but it will bounce if I try!

[Sam Burke]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your input on the Markl step-down technique. I will try this next week and give a report.

[Ryan Lunde]

Sam,

I fly a 7DC with an O-200.  I've not flown no-bounce gear but I understand its name to be a bit misleading.  From what I understand of it, it may be a bit more technical to do a nice wheel landing with, but I'm sure you can do it given some practice. 

Best of luck,

-Ryan

> From: samb...@verizon.net
> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 11:27:32 -0800
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> CC: samb...@verizon.net
> Subject: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question
>

[Mark McAtee]

The Markl approach works for me on my Chief.  Used to be I would really entertain the folks at the airport.  Now...not so much.

 
 
 
Mark 


 
"All airplanes bite fools "        borrowed from a message to an Aeronca newsgroup

 




> From: samb...@verizon.net
> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 12:10:39 -0800
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> CC: samb...@verizon.net
> Subject: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question
>

[Thomas DeWinter]

I use the step down technique.  But I do it at idle power.  MAYBE about 5 pmh over my normal 3 point approach speed.  But it really doesn't seem to matter too much.

The key is the pilot has to make a decision early whether to wheel or 3 point.  and the only real difference is when you get within about 20 feet of the ground.  At idle power either way.

Occasionaly I will apply the next "step down" and immediately contact the ground which then sometimes results in bunny hops.  The only solution "bunny hopping" is add enough power to power out of the "flare" and restart the whole stair stepping process over again if you have enough runway, or go around.

I now prefer and have better and more consistent wheel landings than three point landings1

---

From: Sam Burke <samb...@verizon.net>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Cc: Sam Burke <samb...@verizon.net>
Sent: Fri, December 3, 2010 2:10:39 PM

Subject: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question

[bruce snider]

Sam, just finished 6 of these this afternoon to test your technique. :).

Actually, Robert Smolko (sp?) Taught me this about a year ago. Today
in North Texas, 15 kt head wind, 70 ish MPH on short final. First 5
no bouncing, last one, was like a rabbit! Not enough forward stick,
AFTER touchdown, I can still hear Robert's voice yelling "plant it"
when I was tender with forward stick after the wheels touch. I learned
on his 85 hp 7DC, but works the same on my 75hp 7AC. I use about 100
rpm just before wheel contact to slow the decent, and the try to
"brush it on" as was so well said. One the wheels touch, mucho stick
forward. This keeps it planted till it slows enough to slide back to
the tail wheel.

Hope this helps!

Regards, Bruce

On 12/3/10, Sam Burke <samb...@verizon.net> wrote:

--
Sent from my mobile device

(469) 737-0833

[Dave MacPherson]

Dear Fearless Friends,

Interesting that the subject of wheel landings and 3 pointers come
up at this time. A friend just called me and told me to look on page 70 of
the latest issue of "Sport Aviation". A comparison of landing styles is the
subject of the article that appears on this page. I was really shocked to
see that my Champ (85454) was used to illustrate the three pointer style.
(No credit to my performance) It appears the picture was taken without my
knowledge. I think it was when I was landing at Iola, WI to attend one the
great Friday lunches. I am glad that one of our great Aeroncas made an
appearance in a major publication.

Dave Mac Pherson

[Tony Markl]

Dear Sam
This OF thinks you are WAY too busy and that you are making too many changes and have too high of a workload.  If you required me to do all the things you do I would produce the same result you do.   

The attachment is from my Tailwheel Training Manual.   Any questions feel free.

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Tony Markl]

Do Not push forward while airborne!   This what my last student did and he bent 4 tubes and  broke the ears casting on the axle strut.

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Tony Markl]

Ihave had both kinds of gear on the same L-16. Only difference I see is that regular oleos make softer landings but allow aircraft to list while taxiing in big xwinds.  Just OMO as usual.

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Tony Markl]

Dear Sam
Wheel landings power off are fine but not for the novice  The amount of power is directly related to the head wind on final.  I have used as much as 1700.  Ydeou need this to keep the visual glideslope that you are used to.  I advise my students to leave the trim at the cruise position such as you have at 75% power on downwind.  This loads the stick a little forward and reminds you to move it forward after touchdown.   Always decide what type of landing on downwind.  More OMO that has worked for a long time.

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Tony Markl]

The correct name for this gear is "Long stroke"  It came about after the Army bent tubing doing "barrier landings" at San Marcos TX.

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Tony Markl]

Do not try to fix a poor wheel landing.  Go around and do it correctly/better.  If you are good enough to fix poor landings then you are good enough to do them right in the first place.  Just more OMO

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Tony Markl]

Is there a way for folks who do not get Sport Aviation to see this article?

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Cy Galley]

I think that all the EAA magazines can be read on line.

 

 

Cy Galley - Chair, AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair

A service project of EAA Chapter 75 since 1963

www.eaa75.com

[bruce snider]

Only if you are a member.

Thanks! Bruce

--

Sent from my mobile device

(469) 737-0833

[Rick Hadley]

Try this link:

http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201012/?pg=72&pm=2&u1=friend
 

Rick
Chief NC86196

---

From: Tony Markl <ma...@intercom.net>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Fri, December 3, 2010 5:22:46 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing picture

[Cy Galley]

If you are NOT a member, you should join. Many benefits and lots of help.

Cy Galley - Chair, AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
A service project of EAA Chapter 75 since 1963
www.eaa75.com

[ginny wilken]

On Dec 3, 2010, at 10:39 AM, Sam Burke wrote:

>
> I would appreciate hearing of your experience with regard to the approach, the level off, rpm used, airspeed, trim and touchdown approach.
>
> Regards,
> Sam Burke Red Flicker N6404C 1947 L16A C85 engine

I enjoy Stick and Rudder immensely, but I enjoy it more the more technique I develop. I am a fairly new tailwheel pilot, only about 60 hours out of 1500. I practice wheel landings with power off, power on, different speeds and angles, etc. I only strive to be sure I have flying speed and little more, so generally very low to idle rpm, and keep my eye on the far end of the runway - the big picture, as it were - and wait, and wait, and think about not landing. The best ones are when I am almost surprised to find I have touched, and then, yes, the stick comes forward to "stick" the landing. I wouldn't worry too much about the little bounces you're getting, as a firm hand on the stick will negate their impact. Remember that you are still flying, even after it touches - the ground becomes an incidental thing:)

I generally trim full up, with just me and a half tank, and leave it there for the approach and/or subsequent takeoff. I fly a standardized close-in pattern, and then vary it all over the place for practice, doing lots of power-off from abeam the numbers approaches. You gotta have a standard; then you can deviate from it with full knowledge and control:)

ginny, 7DC-132

All stunts performed without a net!

[ginny wilken]

On Dec 3, 2010, at 3:19 PM, Tony Markl wrote:

Do not try to fix a poor wheel landing.  Go around and do it correctly/better.  If you are good enough to fix poor landings then you are good enough to do them right in the first place.  Just more OMO

Ah, yes, indeed! I have proven that one a few times. Although a good "save" is an elegant thing, on occasion:)

ginny

[Ryan Lunde]

Wow, Ginny, you just wrote out exactly what goes through my mind when wheel landing, but I've not been able to put it to words as well.

-Ryan

> From: gwi...@q.com
> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 18:44:24 -0800
> To: aer...@westmont.edu

[ginny wilken]

On Dec 3, 2010, at 7:10 PM, Ryan Lunde wrote:

Wow, Ginny, you just wrote out exactly what goes through my mind when wheel landing, but I've not been able to put it to words as well.

-Ryan

Thank you, Ryan! Coming to this a little late in "pilot life", I tend to be quite analytical - believe me, I have struggled mightily with wheel landings, too, and can't say what, exactly, made them start to work. But the explanation I gave, the patience, lack of exigency, Zen-like enjoyment, are a huge part of it, I'n sure.

ginny

[Plain Carl]

With the lobounce gear, I always had a strange feeling when the wheels started rolling long before the weight of the airframe was resting on the oleos.  It was like making two landings on the same approach.  I apply forward pressure somewhere in between the two "landings". To me, wheelies in a lobounce are sort of like wheelies with a standard gear in tall grass.  Banked crosswind wheelies in a lobounce are often one wheelers.  I guess i would make a terrible flight instructor, as I don't think I've ever made two landings exactly the same in way over what must have been over 5000 trys.  I lost log books 2,3,and 4 so I don't have an accurate count.   PC    --- On Fri, 12/3/10, Tony Markl <ma...@intercom.net> wrote:

From: Tony Markl <ma...@intercom.net> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

[Tony Markl]

Thanks for the help.  It turns out that Tom Holmes just put a copy on my bed!

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Plain Carl]

I'll  bet I "fix" every landing at least ten times.  Monday I had 20G25 quartering at OI and every landing was an adventure.  I just love doing "hit and runs" with that category of wind.  Today there was just enough wind to turn the windsock.  I spent some time seeing how long I could keep the tail off the ground after a wheelie. With just the right combination of throttle and brake, one can hold it up until almost at a full stop.  Fun.  I've only had three bad landings in my whole life.  On every other I've been able to reuse the airplane.

PC  --- On Fri, 12/3/10, Tony Markl <ma...@intercom.net> wrote:

From: Tony Markl <ma...@intercom.net> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question To: aer...@westmont.edu

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

[CaptG...@aol.com]

In a taildragger you FLY the airplane to a Stop or when you Shut It Down at the ramp. Pure and simple.  It shoud have come came with the initial training.  But then I do feel sorry for folks that got their initial training in a  150's and have a time finding an experienced taildragger pilot--they should be a protected species..But, unfortunately Father Time takes his toll.  BTW--big airplanes if flown properly use the taildragger technique in crosswinds and and when all heck brakes lose. Just because you got a nose wheel, slamm'in and jam'in doesn't make you a pilot.

 

Doug

[Rich Dugger Gmail]

With the beating that aviation has been taking, even though I don't agree
with every thing EAA or AOPA does, I pay my dues to both groups.

The way I see it, Not buying in is kinda like going through a revolving door
on someone else's push.

Rich
who is enjoying the 72 degree weather in TX so far this winter,

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Cy Galley" <cga...@mchsi.com>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 7:39 PM

[John Rodkey]

If I were looking for a model to follow, I'd go with Tony's.  He's thought it through much more deeply than I have, and has tons more experience.  In fact, I'm planning on practicing his technique tomorrow if weather allows.

John

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Sam Burke <samb...@verizon.net> wrote:

Thanks John,

Lets look at our different wheel landing  techniques;

John
1100 rpm
Trim for 80 mph at this rpm
Airspeed 60 mph
Ease off back stick pressure upon wheel touchdown

Sam
1400 rpm
Trim between cruise and full nose up (about 80 mph at this rpm)
Airspeed 70 mph (not looking at airspeed indicator) looking at nose attitude
Adjust rpm to level off
push forward upon wheel contact


John,
I think my technique uses much more runway than yours, I will try yours.  Do you know what your sink rate is at about 400 ft, I think I am around 600 ft/min.

Regards,
Sam

_______________________________________________
Aeronca mailing list
Aer...@westmont.edu
http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

--

[Peter Lapthorne]

G'Day Sam,

I recommend you read Tony's notes first and get them firmly in your mind.
Then go try it. And don't be afraid to drop Tony an email. He was kind
enough to have a private, off forum email conversation with me and clarify a
few things for me. I've said it to Tony, and I'll say it to you. His written
help was as good as having an instructor in the cockpit with me. In one
session after getting his guidance I went from being scared of wheelers, to
doing them because they were so much fun.

By the way, I've just re-read my post and see that it escaped my computer
with some editing errors in it. Sorry about that. On re-reading, it gets a
bit confusing right at the key point about speeds and revs. SO I'll restate
here.

For a three pointer I use 50 mph, and throttle at idle.

For a wheeler I use 63 mph and 1200 RPM.

I also left out another tip from Tony that helped me.

Early in the approach, look out at the wingtip. Either side, it doesn't
matter. The bottom of the wing from trailing edge to leading edge should be
horizontal. (parallel to the horizon) If not your attitude is wrong. Make it
steeper or shallower to get the bottom of the wing horizontal

Cheers

Peter L

-----Original Message-----
From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On

Behalf Of Sam Burke
Sent: Saturday, 4 December 2010 7:11 AM
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Cc: Sam Burke
Subject: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your input on the Markl step-down technique. I will try this next
week and give a report.

Regards,

[Travis Gregory]

I quickly discovered that wheel landings are a whole different ballgame after the installation of vortex generators.

 

travis

---

From: Peter Lapthorne <plapt...@bigpond.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Cc: Sam Burke <samb...@verizon.net>
Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 3:43:47 AM
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question

[Sam Burke]

Travis,

Tell me more. All I know about these vortex generators is that they reduce your stall speed by about 10% or so.

Regards,
Sam Burke Red Flicker N6404C 1947 L16A C85 engine

[Plain Carl]

From time to time I fly with two high time professional 747 drivers.  One was reared in taildraggers and the other in the military pilot mill.  Guess with which I would rather be in the cockpit.  I've had the privilege of landing a DC3, a couple of Howards and in 1964, a B17 at CLL.  I never finished my MEL, but it was a real learning experience to transfer techniques learned in small single engine airaft to these multi's.  Most things were the same, only slower and more deliberate.  In the Howard, one could detect yaw excursions long before they became an issue.  I was told that this was an airplane that could not be three pointed and I never tried.  My head was too messed up by the thrill to remember anything about the B17 except how ponderously things transpired and what a handful the throttle quadrant was.   PC --- On Sat, 12/4/10, CaptG...@aol.com <CaptG...@aol.com> wrote:

From: CaptG...@aol.com <CaptG...@aol.com> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

[Dale P. Jewett]

Travis,

 

I need to learn more from you about the wheel landings with vortex generators. My Chief has them, but I have not yet done any wheel landings. Tell us more.

 

Dale

[Tony Buttacavoli]

i like that expression reared in taildraggers,when it comes to this profession the DC3 was my mother. --- On Sat, 12/4/10, Plain Carl <cham...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

[Travis Gregory]

They do reduce the stall speed. In fact the airplane does not really break. In a wheel landing situation I like to approach at idle power just like a three point landing but instead of having the trim set for full nose up I set it just aft of cruise. I then round out to slow down just like a three point with the tail down just a bit to slow down as much as possible. Just about the time I think it's going to start settling I add a touch of power. Don't ask how much, I'm not looking at the tach. Just enough. At the same time I release some of the back pressure on the yoke. If I've held my tongue in just the right position and nobody is around to see it, the mains meet the runway just as the airplane reaches level flight attitude. Once the spirits tell me it's on to stay I add just a bit of forward pressure to the yoke then retard the throttle.

 

With the VG's the airplane does not want to stop flying. My resoponse it to hold it off the landing surface a bit longer. Well, fine except, since I know the wing is not stalled I tend to remain in slow down mode too long. The airplane although not stalled cannot produce sufficient lift to sustain flight and settles to Earth rather quickly. Bounces, then you know the rest. The airplane wants for nothing but the pilot needs better timing. I'm working on this.

 

Airplanes talk to thier pilots and if the pilot learns to listen well he can appear to be talented at his craft. With the VG's the plane never sends the pilot the, ok boss I'm ready to stop flying now message we're all used to receiving. Thus this hapless pilot must learn to time these moves on his own without the airplane whispering in his ear.

 

travis

---

From: Sam Burke <samb...@verizon.net>

To: aer...@westmont.edu
Cc: Sam Burke <samb...@verizon.net>

Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 8:20:48 AM
Subject: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question

[Steve Lawlor]

Travis,
You just described the way the Fairchild lands. I've got to say that wheel landings are a piece of cake until the tail quits flying then the fun isn't done till the wheels stop turning. Very docile in stall, no hard break, just mush. Landing is just as you described to a letter. She hasn't offered to bounce yet. If you try 3-pointing, the mush will develop into a plunk. My first landing was a wheelie because my airspeed went inop. Just flew it the way Tony described, a step at a time until contact. To me, the hardest part is pushing the stick forward when the wheels plant. It's completely different than flying my C-172 where I have to haul the wheel into my lap after touchdown and keep it there until parked.
Steve Lawlor  F-24R46   '56 C-172

[Travis Gregory]

Steve,

 

Does this mean I may get to fly the Fairchild someday?

 

travis

---

From: Steve Lawlor <9m...@ponyexpress.net>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 3:43:50 PM
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question

[Steve Lawlor]

Travis,

Sure, As soon as I've mastered it.

Steve

[Travis Gregory]

Steve,

 

Trust the force. Let the force be with you.

 

Also, If you've ever watched the movie, Always there's that voice in the back seat telling us, "now!" All we have to do is learn to listen to it.

 

travis

---

From: Steve Lawlor <9m...@ponyexpress.net>
To: aer...@westmont.edu

Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 6:52:44 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question

[Don Harvie]

Yes please Travis,

Dad has VG's for the Chief but not fitted yet. (I'm still working on
getting my 3 point landings consistent so wheel landings are still in my
future :).

Don H

On 5/12/2010 2:13 AM, Dale P. Jewett wrote:
> Travis,
> I need to learn more from you about the wheel landings with vortex
> generators. My Chief has them, but I have not yet done any wheel
> landings. Tell us more.
> Dale
>
> ----- Original Message -----

> *From:* Travis Gregory <mailto:nc4...@yahoo.com>
> *To:* aer...@westmont.edu <mailto:aer...@westmont.edu>
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 04, 2010 8:14 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question

>
> I quickly discovered that wheel landings are a whole different
> ballgame after the installation of vortex generators.
> travis
>

[ginny wilken]

On Dec 4, 2010, at 6:20 AM, Sam Burke wrote:

> Travis,
>
> Tell me more. All I know about these vortex generators is that they reduce your stall speed by about 10% or so.
>
> Regards,
> Sam Burke Red Flicker N6404C 1947 L16A C85 engine
> _______________________________________________

I haven't put them on my Champ yet, but soon will. They "soften" the stall, lowering the speed at which it occurs, and blurring the break at which the air lets go of the wing. The least excess flare will produce a big float:) You really learn patience with them, waiting for the plane to stop flying. You can, in fact, approach at lower speeds - you'll need to! You will find you "fly" the plane on more easily, and will not really stall in a three-pointer either. They will also give you more aileron response generally, better crosswind control, and of course less chance of falling from the sky:)

ginny, 7DC, and a big fan of Micro Dynamics VGs

All stunts performed without a net!

_______________________________________________

[ginny wilken]

On Dec 4, 2010, at 8:23 AM, Travis Gregory wrote:

 

Airplanes talk to thier pilots and if the pilot learns to listen well he can appear to be talented at his craft. With the VG's the plane never sends the pilot the, ok boss I'm ready to stop flying now message we're all used to receiving. Thus this hapless pilot must learn to time these moves on his own without the airplane whispering in his ear.

 

travis

Travis, it's MY turn to say that was brilliantly put! I think mine still whispers, but the message is a bit different:)

ginny

[Travis Gregory]

Don,

 

Ian will love the VG's. Although they take a bit of getting used to. You'll like them too I'm sure.

 

travis

---

From: Don Harvie <donh...@yahoo.com.au>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 7:47:51 PM
Subject: Re: [f-AA] [Bulk] Re: Champ wheel landing question

[Travis Gregory]

Quite true Ginny. A three pointer can't be called a stall landing because you never reach the stall point. Just a slower settle on point.

 

travis

---

From: ginny wilken <gwi...@q.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 7:54:12 PM
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question

[Steve Lawlor]

Travis,
As I remember from the movie - Smoke got in his eyes!!!!!!!!!
Steve

On 12/4/2010 7:20 PM, Travis Gregory wrote:

Steve,

 

Trust the force. Let the force be with you.

 

Also, If you've ever watched the movie, Always there's that voice in the back seat telling us, "now!" All we have to do is learn to listen to it.

 

travis

---

From: Steve Lawlor <9m...@ponyexpress.net>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 6:52:44 PM
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question

Travis,

Sure, As soon as I've mastered it.

Steve

On 12/4/2010 4:57 PM, Travis Gregory wrote:

Steve,

 

Does this mean I may get to fly the Fairchild someday?

 

travis

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[Tony Markl]

Not sure you can say that. I have been led to believe that the angle of incidence controls whether you can make a full stall 3 point landing in a tailwheel aicraft.

How say our aero engineers??

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[ginny wilken]

On Dec 5, 2010, at 7:37 PM, Tony Markl wrote:

Not sure you can say that. I have been led to believe that the angle of incidence controls whether you can make a full stall 3 point landing in a tailwheel aicraft.

Of course, Tony. But the VGs which were the original subject of our posts allow the wing to fly at a higher angle due to the increased adherence of the airflow. So the gear will contact the ground while the wing is still flying, it seems to me, in most craft.

ginny

[Richard Holcombe]

The angle of attack where the wing stalls without the VGs is still higher than the angle of attack in the three point landing. While the VGs may give an even wider margine of safety against a stall in slow flight, they will not make any difference in any normal manuver, including three point landings, as the wing does not stall anyway, the plane just slows till there is no longer enough lift to hold it up.

A "full stall" landing even with the clean standard wing, means dragging the tail wheel with the mains still about three feet off the ground. Then the wing stalls and the mains just drop in, a "stop and drop" landing. The "long stroke" or "no bounce" gear can absorbe that kind of abuse, but it is really only for landing on fields too short to take off from.

[Tom Boyle]

Umm, if you can keep flying while dragging the tail wheel, then a three point isn't a complete stall.  I guess we should say that a true full stall landing is a "One point landing".

 

T²

[jay curtis]

I remember awhile back a discussion on here regarding 3 point landings being and not being stall or full-stall landings. Is it fair to say then that with our airplanes that they are likely near stall landings ? And only if the incident angle were higher (design change)could they be capable of full stall landings?  Just try to get my head around this,on a very snowy day here.!

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
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[Timothy shaw]

In our 46 7AC 65hp it seems to depend on weight and balance. Full fuel or someone in the back seat seems to be a large variable. I was taught that it is possible, with the right wind conditions, and weight and balance that you can actually make a full stall at point of contact. However I have never actually looked at my air speed at that instant! I do have to touch down at over 55 for a wheel landing solo.

[Louis and Sabrina]

You could get closer to a full stall three point with larger tires, or
extended gear. Wasn't that what they had in mind with the real long gear
on some of those old navy biplane fighters? ...Louis

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Timothy shaw" <tgsh...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 1:49 PM
To: <aer...@westmont.edu>

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question

> In our 46 7AC 65hp it seems to depend on weight and balance. Full fuel or

[Vand...@aol.com]

Again, I recommend Harvey Plourde's book- The Compleat Taildragger Pilot for an excellent discussion of landing a conventional gear aircraft.  He describes the interconnected effects of the changes in the angle of attack and the changes in airspeed during wheel and 3 point landings.  These combined with the effects of the aft center of gravity, weight and balance, variations in wind velocity and direction, and landing surface result in the challenges we confront in landing taildraggers.  This somewhat academic information helps to understand the techniques necessary and the stark differences in landing taildraggers as opposed to nose wheel airplanes.  He goes on to describe these techniques.  His sections on ground operations and other aspects of flight also combine easily understood physics and aerodynamic principles and techniques.

It is interesting to me that the practical advice offered over that last several days in this discussion is extremely good in the practical aspects of flying "wheelies" and "full stall" landings when, according to the "guy who wrote the book," neither of these terms is strictly aeronautically correct.  

Dan vdMeer

I remember awhile back a discussion on here regarding 3 point landings being and not being stall or full-stall landings. Is it fair to say then that with our airplanes that they are likely near stall landings ? And only if the incident angle were higher (design change)could they be capable of full stall landings?  Just try to get my head around this,on a very snowy day here.!

----- Original Message -----

From: Tom Boyle

To: aer...@westmont.edu

Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 1:34 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question

Umm, if you can keep flying while dragging the tail wheel, then a three point isn't a complete stall.  I guess we should say that a true full stall landing is a "One point landing".

 

T²

----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Markl

To: aer...@westmont.edu

Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 9:37 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Champ wheel landing question

[Tony Markl]

Dear Sam
Power off wheel landings are perfectly OK but not advised for beginners.  The amount of rpm needed is a direct function of headwind.  I have used as much as 1700 with serious headwinds.  You need this to be able to fly your normal glideslope

My advice to my students is to leave the trim at cruise setting such as would be on downwind.  This puts a small forward loading on the stick and reminds you that a

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

On 12/3/10 3:00 PM, Sam Burke wrote:

Thanks John,

Lets look at our different wheel landing  techniques;

John
1100 rpm
Trim for 80 mph at this rpm
Airspeed 60 mph
Ease off back stick pressure upon wheel touchdown

Sam
1400 rpm
Trim between cruise and full nose up (about 80 mph at this rpm)
Airspeed 70 mph (not looking at airspeed indicator) looking at nose attitude
Adjust rpm to level off
push forward upon wheel contact


John,
I think my technique uses much more runway than yours, I will try yours.  Do you know what your sink rate is at about 400 ft, I think I am around 600 ft/min. 

Regards,
Sam 
		
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[Sam Burke]

Hi Tony,

Well I have a copy of the Plourde book "The Compleat Taildragger Plot". His thoughts are great to read but I am well aware that practice, practice, practice is the key. I will be doing a few wheel landing on Wednesday with my favorite Taildragger CFI. I used your step down technique last week and it seemed to work well in getting down but I am still working on getting to brain to make my right hand move the stick forward at touchdown and pull back on the throttle at the same time. Sounds easy but it seems to be counter to my Archer II 800 landing experience!

Regards,
Sam Red Flicker N6404C 1947 L16A

[Peter Lapthorne]

Hey Sam,

For what it is worth. I keep both hands on the control wheel (in my Chief)
until the wheels are on the ground and I have pushed. That forces me to keep
my hand off the throttle so that I am not tempted to try to finesse the
landing. For me, Tony's step technique is about putting the aircraft down
firmly where I want it. In some ways it's a big aircraft mentality.

Cheers

Peter L

-----Original Message-----
From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On
Behalf Of Sam Burke

Sent: Tuesday, 14 December 2010 6:20 PM
To: aer...@westmont.edu

[Tony Markl]

Dear Sam
Try leaving the trim at the cruise setting.  This means you will have a little forward force on the stick during the approach and this makes it easier to add some more AT touchdown.  Do not think that power comes off at touchdown.  In my opinion power comes off when it is clear to you that you will be completing a landing.  Try not to ever to two things at once if it is possible to do them in succession - it is easier, and more successful.   Remember that the power approach was to give you better control by increasing the airflow over the rudder and elevators.  When YOU decide that you no longer care about better control then remove the power.  Also remember that removing the power will start the tail down which you do not want at touchdown.  Steer with the rudder as long as you can and then Bring the tail down and steer with the tailwheel.  Just more OMO>

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Tony Markl]

Dear Peter
I offer you this thought.  If you are used to using Two hands for anything then using only ONE hand will feel inadequate to your brain.  An old CFI once told me "you have two hands, one is for flying the airplane and the other is for everything else".   Try making a few landings while sitting on your left hand and imagine a wind gust getting you just at touchdown.  You would wish your hand to have been on the throttle instead.??   The only aircraft that I have takeoff and landing with two hands have been the Gooney Bird (C-47 or Dakota) which has the "Armstrong" power controls or Transport Category (Boeings etc) when in really rough winds with a copilot to set power at my command.

If you are using two hands to keep the weight of one hand from pulling that side of the wheel down??  then consider putting your flying hand in the middle of the yoke to prevent this - this is my practice when flying wheel controlled small airplanes

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Peter Lapthorne]

G’Day Tony,

 

Thanks for the thoughts, and watching out for me.

 

I’m flying two hands on the wheel at this stage to unlock the habit of pulling the throttle when I am ready to flair. Still finding that if I stop thinking about the wheel landing then I automatically pull the throttle.

 

But you raise a really good point about what happens if a gust hits.

 

It’s not a case of one hand pulling the wheel down. It’s the old habits that are taking way too long to get out of the system.

 

Cheers

 

Peter L

 

From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of Tony Markl

Sent: Tuesday, 14 December 2010 10:44 PM
To: aer...@westmont.edu

[Rob Murphy]

Peter,
Fix that habit quickly as two hand on the yoke during landings can create a problem that you cannot fix.
Regard,
Rob

-----Original message-----

[Vand...@aol.com]

Sam and Tony.

My thoughts exactly.  Having learned from both of you and the rest of the folks on the list, I have learned from the best.

Merry Christmas all.

Dan vdMeer

[John Rodkey]

Interesting insight, Tony.  In these light airplanes, most times a very light touch is all that's needed: a hamfisted death grip on the yoke will probably contribute to control problems, although I'm sure that's not what Peter's referencing.

Those who fly with me (many have never flown before... I try to seek out newcomers to aviation) are given the suggestion that you lightly squeeze the lower left portion of the yoke between your thumb and 'pointing' finger, and use this to place forward or back pressure to adjust speed to your target speed, and pressure left and right for bank.    Of course, if you're doing a 3 point landing, it takes a bit more to pull back, so a better grip is called for.  I've not used the hand on the top of the wheel, but that sounds like a good idea.  But for a wheel landing, perhaps the light touch would be more effective?  

John

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Tony Markl <ma...@intercom.net> wrote:

Dear Peter

--
John (poobah) Rodkey - N9361E 11AC at Goleta

[Sam Burke]

I did 4 wheel landings this morning under light wind conditions with my CFI. Three of them were done at engine idle initiated at the downwind to base turn abeam of the numbers at pattern altitude. I used an airspeed of 75 to 80 mph to allow for the power off condition and leave room for me to find the ground at around 60 mph. I used cruise trim which required some back pressure to hold the approach airspeed. The landings went very well which was a bit of a surprise, perhaps due to all of this advise from you all. I was advised to use a 2 inch seat cushion to give better visibility and improve aircraft height judgment, it did seem to help find the runway. Another thing that helped was that I did not need to worry about the throttle even though my left hand was on it in case of a bounce which happened one time when I had to transitioned from a wheel landing to a three point. Doing a tight pattern seemed to help also because the runway was assured and the workload was low dur

ing the approach.

Thanks everyone for all of this email input on wheel landings over the past month, I do like the increased sense of aircraft control with the wheel landings compared to a 3 point stall landing which has a few seconds when I feel a bit out of control just around the stall.

Regards,
Sam Burke N6404C 1947 L16A 85HP

[John Rodkey]

Congratulations!  Sounds like you're starting to get the hang of it.  It certainly took me a while, and even though the first 3 wheel landings after rebuild (5 years off) were about the best landings I've ever done, I have since gone through the typical relearning pattern, and I think I'm close to my previous proficiency now.  It just takes doing them over and over, and learning from each bounce and swerve.

John

[Tony Markl]

Dear Sam
Remember that the real use of the wheel landing is in difficult wind conditions.  It would be better named " I want better airplane control" landing rather than wheel landing which gives no clue since we always land on the wheels???  Perhaps it is a contraction of "main" wheel landing??

Consider that making wheel landings out of power off approaches are fine for practicing but  defeats the "I want better control".  The 1200 (light/non gusty winds) or more rpm (I have had to use as much as 1700 to stay on the visual glide path on strong/gusty wind days) is not there to stabilize your yaw and pitch control during the approach.  I am reminded of a Panam 727 flight in Yugoslavia where winds over the adjacent mountain range required me to fly 40kts above our normal speed and even with that I used "full" control authority.  Passengers had to be scared but I was too busy to do the John Wayne " it's a little rowdy out here today, folks"

Just more OMO and glad to see more folks making more and better wheel landings.

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Sam Burke]

Thanks Tony and John,

Yes I realize that good constant wheel landing technique with wind directly down the runway is one thing but with an 8 mph crosswind is another. I will schedule some time with my CFI Dick to do some actual crosswind landings with actual crosswind.

My CFI argues that one can use extra airspeed on the approach to a wheel landing rather than power. That is , Kinetic energy rather than Chemical energy to insure a touchdown in excess of 60 mph.

Regards,
Sam Burke Tailwheel Student Now ! N6404C 1947 L16A

[John Rodkey]

Certainly that's true - you can wheel land without power by using kinetic energy.
I think Tony's point is that the 1200 rpm gives you more airflow over the tail surfaces, which gives you added control when you need it (squirrely, strong crosswinds).  I love these discussions, and learn new things sometimes when I thought I knew everything about a topic.  :)  Like Tony's pull-back then return stick to cruise technique...

John

[Tony Markl]

This CFI argues that extra airspeed puts you further down the runway.  Most folks already land well past the touchdown point.  So that would be extra extra airspeed.  Airspeed bleeds off slowly compared to the removal of rpm. IMHO the reason for using extra power or speed is two-fold.  1. to compensate for gusty conditions.  2. to allow the pilot time to feel for the runway.    Both of these conditions vary for each landing and each pilot. 
     I have made more wheel landings than full stall and so has everyone else who has ever flown a nose wheel airplane. I have used from idle to 1700 for the ones made in my Champ.  Consider that there is not a "right" amount of power or speed but rather a "right" amount for the particular landing or pilot.  As you get more skill you will need less of either.    Just more OMO that works.

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Plain Carl]

I once, when young and bulletproof,  at the now long gone White Rock Airport near Dallas wheel landed a J5 Cub at full throttle into the face of a 40 kt headwind.  I could not get the tail down without moving in reverse, so I did an helicopterlike airtaxi to the tiedown area where a line boy tied me down without my ever putting the tailwheel on the ground.  No problem here about landing too far down the runway   PC --- On Fri, 12/17/10, Tony Markl <ma...@intercom.net> wrote:

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