[f-AA] Stick position at taxi

[Shaun Dawson]

In contrast to most of my posts, I'm actually NOT trying to start a flame war with this one, believe it or not.

I was trained to always hold the stick fully aft during taxi (actually any time the tailwheel is on the ground).  In fact, as far as I can tell, that's what differentiates a tailwheel instructor from a tricycle one... the tailwheel guy is constantly yelling "stick back, stick BACK, STICK BACK!!!" on the ground.

I just recently got an email from an instructor friend of mine who suggested that one should put the stick forward when taxiing downwind, because of the tailwind.  I think that's ludicrous, but I won't say why until after we've talked about it a bit.

What do you seasoned veterans of tailwheel tactics have to say on the matter?

Shaun

P.S. If you provide a soliloquy matching the quality of John's excellent wingover post, I'll send you one of Rafael's beers :) 

[Dale P. Jewett]

For what it is worth, I was always taught to position the controls during taxiing for wind conditions as follows: “Climb up and into, dive down and away” from the wind direction. Seems to me that would apply equally to tailwheel and nose wheel aircraft. What do all the rest of you “experts” say??

 

Dale Jewett

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[Richard Murray]

On the money Shaun. Always keep the stick back UNLESS there is significant tailwind and then a neutral position is advised to avoid the tail from coming up as you brake or slow down.

Richard in OH who is very cautious with a taxiing tailwind.

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[Roger Anderson]

My thoughts...without much eloquence...is...if the speed of the tailwind exceeds the ground speed of the aircraft as it taxis downwind, then having the stick back would allow the tailwind to actually lighten the weight of the aircraft on the tailwheel.  However, if you are taxiing in a surface wind so strong that that bit of weight off the tailwheel might affect the ability to control steering, then you are in a wind that you probably shouldn't be in anyhow.   So....in conclusion....I say just always judge the individual wind situation and then position the controls to where they will be most effective at that time....which, I guess...could be stick forward....maybe....      roger

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From: "Shaun Dawson" <scda...@gmail.com>
To: "aeronca" <aer...@westmont.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:47:24 AM

Subject: [f-AA] Stick position at taxi

[joer...@suddenlink.net]

I would not classify myself as a seasoned veteran, but I do walk behind engine running aircraft regularly in order to check the other side for leaks. My observation is-if the tailwind is strong enough to overwhelm the prop wash, it is a good day to leave the airplane in the hangar because flying sure ain't gonna be any fun. jrh

[danv...@gmail.com]

This is from "ADVANCED TAILWHEEL TRAINING"-

It is consistent with advice contained in the several books I have in my collection on tailwheel operations. 

      "Control position while taxiing is more important in a Taildragger. As a general rule the stick (or wheel) is held in its full aft position at all times when taxiing. The only possible exception to this rule is if there is a strong tail wind. When the wind from behind is strong enough to cause the tail to rise, position the elevator in a neutral position (stick amidship). This will cause the elevator to be at the same angle as the stabilizer and cause the wind to help hold down the tail. The stick should never be held forward of the neutral position when taxiing, it should be all the way back or neutral, never forward of neutral. Rule number 1: Always keep the stick back.

While taxiing with a crosswind the ailerons should be positioned so that the wind when blowing across them will hold down the upwind wing. If the wind is behind and to the left, the left aileron should be down causing the wind when blowing across it to push the wing down (stick right). When the wind is from the left and ahead the left aileron should be up (stick left). When taxiing in a cross wind look at the ailerons and picture the wind moving across them and position them accordingly.

When taxiing a Taildragger you must Pay Attention from start up to shut down."

Dan v

[John Rodkey]

The only time I saw an airplane nose over, it was a Piper Pawnee that was taxiing downwind on a relatively soft, sandy surface with about a 30 mph wind from the rear.  The pilot had the stick back, hit a section of surface that was particularly soft, and before you could blink, was over on its nose. Obviously the glider tow I was waiting for wasn't going to happen after that.  I don't believe he would  have nosed over had he put the elevator in neutral or slightly down position.

I stick by 'dive away from and climb into wind', but only when the wind is 'significant' - maybe 10kt or more - do I really think hard about it.

Even when 'diving away', you shouldn't go to full down elevator, because it a) bangs the elevator against the stops each time your tailwheel hits a bump, and b) makes the underside of your elevator more susceptible to rock and debris damage.

 

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John (poobah) Rodkey - N9361E 11AC at Goleta

[Doug Rounds]

Taxiing and wind direction is a semi-advanced lesson in physics. No
exact position is always right--there are differenct control
plains/elevations/angles. Some airplanes have stabalizer trim and some
elevator trim, some airplanes are heavier than others, proper windflow
is not the same on all ad infintum. It is physics and common sense if
you were introduced to it in training. A book can't tell all when
wind is involved. If you fly long enough you will find a page missing
someday. I always told my students just remember flying is like
learning to walk--think about the body language .Whether a Champ,
Cessna O-1, C-47 or a 3 Engine Lockheed L-1011. Doug

>> all the way back or neutral, never forward of neutral. *Rule number 1:
>> Always keep the stick back.*

>>
>> While taxiing with a crosswind the ailerons should be positioned so that
>> the wind when blowing across them will hold down the upwind wing. If the
>> wind is behind and to the left, the left aileron should be down causing
>> the
>> wind when blowing across it to push the wing down (stick right). When the
>> wind is from the left and ahead the left aileron should be up (stick
>> left).
>> When taxiing in a cross wind look at the ailerons and picture the wind
>> moving across them and position them accordingly.
>>

>> When taxiing a Taildragger you must *Pay Attention *from start up to shut

[Shaun Dawson]

Thanks, everyone for the lively discussion and valuable information.

My own perspective was that the stick should go all the way aft, if the wind is calm.  If you have a tailwind, the stick should be moved forward somewhat, but never forward of neutral.

This is because the propwash should overpower any tailwind we have any business taxiing in.  I believe it's somewhat common for people to forget about the propwash, and that's what I think my instructor friend was doing with his stick forward recommendation.

I also thought that ailerons should be positioned such that the wind would help push the upwind wing into the ground, so in the "climb toward, dive away" position.

Special care should be taken when taxiing in muck or using brakes.  Every taxi prop strike incident I've ever heard of involved either or both of those factors.

It looks like the consensus of the group is similar, and I appreciate everyone who took the time to respond.

Best regards,

Shaun

PS I've found that taxiing in a Champ as opposed to a Chief has added challenges, because of the flocks of women that are constantly rushing up to the plane, hanging on, and trying to get in.  I find that I need to taxi much faster in the Champ than I would need to in a less attractive airplane.  The actual speed depends on the running speed of the local girls.  I also find it helpful to remove my leather jacket and silk scarf to make myself physically less appealing, but my data on that is purely anecdotal.  Failure to take these measures can be dangerous for the pilot as well as bystanders.  It's astonishing how few crooning girls it takes to overwhelm even the mighty Champ.  With a quartering tailwind, just one or two of them holding on to the strut and grasping for the door can easily develop into a ground loop and mob overwhelm.

[Richard Murray]

Indeed 'flame thrower' you have the learned well the added challenges a Champ pilot must face. Keep flying the airplane as the Force Awakens.

[John Rodkey]

This reminds me of flying off a gravel strip in Alaska in a Cessna 182, being chased by a dog owned by one of the passengers I had just picked up.  One lucky mutt - I was able to taxi and take off without slowing down enough for it to get into prop.

[Doug Rounds]

John we have had Weimarners since 1955--and on our strip the son had
his place on one side but doesn't own the strip yet and we on the
other--since we own it and I don't fly much anymore the dog partially
owns it along with hiis mother--so when the son flies he call and when
his friends come they circle or get a wave off--afterall the dog is
part owner of the strip. Airplanes can be expensive if they hit a dog
on a priavate strip without permission--to airplane and owner. We have
had a dog on the strip for 50 years and it is PRIVATE.. If you own a
private strip you expect respect or it is out of bounds. BTW--My son
has 3 dogs and he calls. PS--Years go there were no lawyers and
insurance companies--and if so they could not spell private strip--too
many people now looking for work.PS just remember it is going to
double in 45 years. Our airplanes will obsolete via the folks looking
for work--you will not be able to afford it fying--maybe a museum..,
Better on a better note--Merry Christmas. Doug.