[f-AA] Vert Card Compass Calibration

[Sam Burke]

I did a very precise calibration on my new vertical card compass at our local airport (SMX) compass rose.
I was quite proud of resulting error table which showed a maximum error of 16 deg on an east heading. Well
I took a long trip and come to find out that the compass is off by more than 30 degrees on many headings.
I neglected to raise the tail and run the engine. It seems that the rpm should be up to the rate where the generator is charging the battery with the tail up, how to do that? Could I use my GPS and do the calibration in the air? Any input would be appreciated.

Sam Burke Red Flicker N6404C 1947 L16A C85-12

Photo of compass installation above the fuel tank, all the way forward:

[Cy Galley]

Should have saved your money. Sometimes they work but many times they don't.
Calibration is problematic especially in a steel tubed fuselage.

Cy Galley; Editor - Aeronca Aviator
Supporting Aeroncas every day
www.aeronca.org

_______________________________________________
Aeronca mailing list
Aer...@westmont.edu
http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

[Stephen Briggs]

Hi Sam, I had the same problem in  my chief.  Then I found out ab out the balance balls.  The balance balls are two little ball that attach with a bracket to the back of the compass. They are sold by the manufacturer, don't cost too much and really do a good job in fixing the problem.

Mine was a bad or worse than you describe but is now with-in 2 or 3 degrees on all heading at all engine speed and in flight or on the ground.

You can buy them from chief aircraft part number is PCN PBB475
 PHOTO 
Balancing Balls, Magnetic Field Compensation Balls, Precision

 ADD 

$39.50  
Regards, Steve in NH

----------------------------------------
From: samb...@verizon.net
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 11:29:45 -0700
To: aer...@westmont.edu
CC: samb...@verizon.net; dick.f...@mac.com; flyf...@gmail.com

Subject: [f-AA] Vert Card Compass Calibration

_______________________________________________

[Peter Lapthorne]

Yes.

Provided you do it on an absolutely still, zero wind day. Your GPS does not
show aircraft heading. It shows track over the ground. It does not
compensate for crab angle.

And make sure your GPS is set to show you Mag Heading, not true.

I would suggest taking a companion to do two things.

1) Make the adjustments at N-S and E-W while you fly the aircraft as
accurately as possible.
2) Record the errors at 30 deg, 60 deg etc while you fly the aircraft as
accurately as possible.

And I suggest several (2 - 5) runs at each of the required headings (N-S,
E-W, 30 deg, 60 deg etc) then average the results.

Cheers

Peter Lapthorne VK3VAA

Shoe Phone 0411 751 707

-----Original Message-----
From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On
Behalf Of Sam Burke
Sent: Monday, 21 March 2011 5:30 AM
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Cc: Sam & Pat Burke; Dick Fischer; Lane Tufts

Subject: [f-AA] Vert Card Compass Calibration

_______________________________________________

[Stephen Briggs]

By the way Sam most people don't know about the balance balls so give up on trying to calibrate the compass. 

----------------------------------------
From: samb...@verizon.net
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 11:29:45 -0700
To: aer...@westmont.edu
CC: samb...@verizon.net; dick.f...@mac.com; flyf...@gmail.com

Subject: [f-AA] Vert Card Compass Calibration

_______________________________________________

[Stephen Briggs]

In the process of trying to fix my calibration problem, I even use the degauss-er you can rent from El Reno aircraft and checked all the tubing for magnetism.  There was some magnetism but not that much.  I was skepticle about ever fixing the problem but was pleasantly surprised at how well the balance balls worked.  My compass is mounted in exactly the same place as yours.  Turns out a number of places sell the balls including Srpuce, here is the link to chief aircraft.

http://www.chiefaircraft.com/airsec/Aircraft/FlightInstruments/Compasses-Precision.html

----------------------------------------
From: samb...@verizon.net
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 11:29:45 -0700
To: aer...@westmont.edu
CC: samb...@verizon.net; dick.f...@mac.com; flyf...@gmail.com
Subject: [f-AA] Vert Card Compass Calibration

_______________________________________________

[vand...@aol.com]

Sam
This is a non-answer and just as useless. But I have an Airpath
vertical card compass that is highly unreliable. It offers variable
indications that are plus/minus 10 to 20 off. None of the gurus I've
consulted have helped. I use a hand held GPS and keep another old
unit I'm my flight bag as back up when leaving my known territory.
I can't wait to read the replies to your post. I sure do hope they are
more cogent, practical, and useful than mine.
If not be careful if you decide to replace your unit with a whiskey
compass. It has to be certified for installation in your aircraft by
someone certified to do the work. It has to have the proper repair
tags as appropriate as well as manufacturer data plate. Used compasses
and/or inexpensive compasses that may be ok for installations in
Experimentals aren't ok.
Dan VdMeer

> <P2170159.jpeg>

[Tony Markl]

Dear Sam
 For a practical result consider flying runway headings at local airports and noting the results.  Yes, the runway heading is to the nearest 10 degree mark but this method has let me get Champs and Cubs delivered a thousand miles away.

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

_______________________________________________
Aeronca mailing list
Aer...@westmont.edu
http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

[Cy Galley]

Your old Airpath compass is more than one needs for VFR navigation. They
are easily repaired via a compass kit from Chief, etc. Your A&P or IA
cannot work on them via an FAA mandate but many owners have. Even buying a
new reliable Airpath is much cheaper and less frustrating that the vertical
card. Here in the mid-west, we fly section lines to calibrate as they are
very close to East- West, North-South.

Cy Galley; Editor - Aeronca Aviator
Supporting Aeroncas every day
www.aeronca.org

-----Original Message-----

From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On

[Richard Holcombe]

I second the carry two GPSs.

Have tried to swing my Whiskey Compass in the air on a still day, but always end up useing the magic gps find where I'm going.

[Stephen Briggs]

Hi Sam, If/after you install the balance balls, find an airport with a compass rose and taxi up to the rose and reposition the aircraft with the engine and any avionics turned on.  Then set the compass adjustment, and repeat this on all the various headings.

There is a very good instruction sheet that comes with the balance balls telling you how to set the compass, first by adjusting the balls then doing the fine adjustments with the screws at the bottom of the compass.

Regard, steve

________________________________
> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 18:47:30 -0400
> From: ma...@intercom.net

> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Vert Card Compass Calibration
>

[Stephen Briggs]

I find the vertical card compass serves a second purpose.  If you don't have a DG and most of us don't, the compass card looks like a dg and helps me visualize runways and entries when I'm approaching a strange airport.  Looking at the compass card you can overlay it in your mind onto the airport and it just helps as a double check to make sure you are lining up on the correct downwind that the tower told you to.

----------------------------------------
> From: cga...@mchsi.com
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 20:43:20 -0500

> On Mar 20, 2011, at 14:29, Sam Burke wrote:
>
> > I did a very precise calibration on my new vertical card compass at
> > our local airport (SMX) compass rose.
> > I was quite proud of resulting error table which showed a maximum
> > error of 16 deg on an east heading. Well
> > I took a long trip and come to find out that the compass is off by
> > more than 30 degrees on many headings.
> > I neglected to raise the tail and run the engine. It seems that the
> > rpm should be up to the rate where the generator is charging the
> > battery with the tail up, how to do that? Could I use my GPS and do
> > the calibration in the air? Any input would be appreciated.
> >
> > Sam Burke Red Flicker N6404C 1947 L16A C85-12
> >
> > Photo of compass installation above the fuel tank, all the way
> > forward:
> >

[M THOMPSON]

yes I agree,it sure does help me with line up on the down wind,its a great way to double chk yourself unless you have one of those fancy glass cockpit instruments...lol

---

From: Stephen Briggs <sibr...@hotmail.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Sun, March 20, 2011 9:56:56 PM

[vand...@aol.com]

Thanks Cy. I got advisories and Class B clearance between Whitted
Field and Lakeland yesterday. Was being prudent because the airspace
is quite busy on Saturdays, there was some residual fog in the AM, and
this time of year many visitors from all over the world are trying to
navigate here.
I asked for direct and got anything but. Tampa ATC was vectoring
traffic into Lakeland where SnF and FAA were holding briefing sessions
for volunteers. I got the scenic routing awarded to the slowest
aircraft in the sector. It was a struggle to hold a heading with the
Airpath. I admit to using language unfit for the Rodkey dinner table.
I vowed to something about that miserable contraption that claims to
be a compass. I'll attend to that with the appropriate vendor at SnF.
Dan VdMeer

[Stephen Briggs]

Hi Dan, The Vert Card Compass holds a steady heading without bouncing all over, if you get told to turn to a heading, with the vert card it's simple as the compass moves the same as a DG.  Mine works great, I used the Airpath for years and never liked it.  When I flew IFR I only used it to check the DG on occasion and then I had my doubts about it's accuracy.  If you can afford the vert card you won't be disappointed.  Read my posts on calibrating with the balance balls, the manufacturer was very helpful when I called and complained that I couldn't get it to calibrate.   They told me about the balance balls and it fixes the problem with the metal tubing frame around the compass.  Actually, it's tracks much better and truer than an Airpath and you won't end up needing a little card telling you how many degrees your off on various headings.

Steve

----------------------------------------
> From: vand...@aol.com
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 22:32:19 -0400

> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Vert Card Compass Calibration
>

> Thanks Cy. I got advisories and Class B clearance between Whitted
> Field and Lakeland yesterday. Was being prudent because the airspace
> is quite busy on Saturdays, there was some residual fog in the AM, and
> this time of year many visitors from all over the world are trying to
> navigate here.
> I asked for direct and got anything but. Tampa ATC was vectoring
> traffic into Lakeland where SnF and FAA were holding briefing sessions
> for volunteers. I got the scenic routing awarded to the slowest
> aircraft in the sector. It was a struggle to hold a heading with the
> Airpath. I admit to using language unfit for the Rodkey dinner table.
> I vowed to something about that miserable contraption that claims to
> be a compass. I'll attend to that with the appropriate vendor at SnF.
> Dan VdMeer
>

> > On Mar 20, 2011, at 14:29, Sam Burke wrote:
> >
> >> I did a very precise calibration on my new vertical card compass at
> >> our local airport (SMX) compass rose.
> >> I was quite proud of resulting error table which showed a maximum
> >> error of 16 deg on an east heading. Well
> >> I took a long trip and come to find out that the compass is off by
> >> more than 30 degrees on many headings.
> >> I neglected to raise the tail and run the engine. It seems that the
> >> rpm should be up to the rate where the generator is charging the
> >> battery with the tail up, how to do that? Could I use my GPS and do
> >> the calibration in the air? Any input would be appreciated.
> >>
> >> Sam Burke Red Flicker N6404C 1947 L16A C85-12
> >>
> >> Photo of compass installation above the fuel tank, all the way
> >> forward:
> >>

[Tony Markl]

I believe that a level fight attitude is part of the swinging process.

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Tony Buttacavoli]

we swung the compasses on our DC3s before a transpac ferry trip, tail down, we found HNL ,so i think it worked ! --- On Sun, 3/20/11, Tony Markl <ma...@intercom.net> wrote:

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

[Cy Galley]

Get the English replacement for the Airpath. The vertical card sounds nice
but I haven't heard many nice things about it.

[Cy Galley]

Sorry Steve, I believe the correction card is a FAA requirement. No card,
plane is NOT airworthy. Card does not have to be correct.

[Stephen Briggs]

No need to be sorry Cy, I know the FAA requirements as well as you, I was simply saying you don't have to look at it or worry about it when you fly with an accurate stable compass. 

I've never flown with an airpath that was steady enough to read within the tolerances specified on the card while in flight.  Perhaps if the FAA had seen an accurate well compensated compass that didn't jump around all over the place back years ago they would not have required the compensation card.  You're welcome to your strong opinion against newer technology, but as for me if it helps me fly more accurately and makes me safer then I'll use it.

Regards, Steve

----------------------------------------
> From: cga...@mchsi.com
> To: aer...@westmont.edu

> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:52:24 -0500

[berthelsdorf]

I believe that is correct! I have seen them with all zeros for corrections.

Victor
http://www.kaleidoscope-glass.com/

[Bob McGrath]

One of the things on my annual inspection checklist

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Cy Galley" <cga...@mchsi.com>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 9:52 AM

[Stephen Briggs]

This discussion regarding the Vert Card compass reminds me of the Mcdowell Starter.  When first introduced the starters were taken out of most chiefs because they were used incorrectly or the mags just wouldn't produce the spark at the right time to get starter. 

So people pulled and pulled on the cable until frustrated and took them out declaring them useless.  I have had on in a chief combined with dual impulse coupled slick mags, it worked wonderfully.  Just pull the prop through a few times by hand outside the aircraft to prime the engine and then one short pull on the cable in the cabin had you started.  The new technology in this case were the dual impulse mags producting the spark at just the right time.

So when ever I talk to someone about McDowell starters, if they haven't had the pleasure of using one set up correctly, they respond the Mcdowell's had a bad rep and you should stay away from them.

The same holds true for the compass, if you haven't personnaly used one that was set up correctly (i.e. with the balance balls), then you rely on other folks comments that they have a bad rep and you should stay away from them.

[maba...@aol.com]

I would like to buy a complete Mc Dowell. Starter I know it would work in my Chief. I have pieces and parts but not the whole unit.
Mike Barbee
NC 3660E
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with Nextel Direct Connect

[j...@joea.com]

Come to the National Aeronca Associations fly-in held at the original Aeronca factory in 2012.

Last summer there was a "new in the box" McDowell starter there at the "fly market" on Saturday. Sold
I believe for $1100 and wish there were several more up for sale.

Also there are always several Aeronca's at this fly-in with the McDowell still working, so anyone can
see how easy they are to use.

Joe A

[maba...@aol.com]

Joe
I was there with my Chief missed the starter by 10 minutes I was on the factory tour.
Mike B.

[Tony Markl]

Not sure that  "newer technology" creates safety as most accidents still are pilot error.  Newer technology like better steel and fabric materials and longer lasting engine parts due to better oil  Sure.  But most electronic devices are substitutes for studying or using your brain.   Anyone in the putt putt airplane delivery business (BTDT) knows that the airplane compass will not be what gets him to the destination --  I remember one J-3 compass that was about 30 degrees off on most headings - did an inflight compass swing on the 6 runways at Zellwood FL and departed for CT.

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[vand...@aol.com]

Steve
I thank both you and Cy for the advice. I have an Airpath on the Champ
and a vert card on the C150. Neither is very accurate and both are
beyond their useful lives. This discussion was helpful.
Dan VdMeer

[Bob McGrath]

Right on, Tony! In 1969 I flew my 7ECA from Seattle to Boston NORDO and with a good old whiskey compass. And a good pair of glasses. Of course when I had the C-337 with a GPS it was the 1st time in my flying life that I really knew knew where I was most of the time!!

BTW did the guy ever contact you about painting his Piper Pacer with the new fabric on it?

[Cy Galley]

If you are adverse to "repairing" your Airpath with a kit and you think you
need a magnetic compass with better accuracy, try a S.I.R.S. About the same
price as a quality vertical card without the compensator balls, but is it
damped with a more modern fluid than kerosene.

Cy Galley - Chair, AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
A service project of EAA Chapter 75 since 1963
www.eaa75.com

-----Original Message-----
From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On
Behalf Of vand...@aol.com
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 2:27 PM
To: aer...@westmont.edu

Subject: Re: [f-AA] New Technology vs. Older technology

[Travis Gregory]

I'm not instructing activly anymore but did for many years. One criteria for getting me to sign an 87-10 form for an instrument check ride was the ability to descend through a thick undercast which went down to 200' agl using only the magnetic compass. No Airspeed, altimeter or verticle speed, pitot was iced over. All electrics gone so no HSI, or electric attitude indicator if you had not lost it in the pitot static failure. No turn coordinator.  The magnetic compass and slip/skid ball will get you down if you know how to use them, how to trim your airplane and are wise enough to go to idle power. This involved charts over the windows, with a peek hole for the instructor. The applicant then, upon "breaking out" at 200 feet would have to find a suitable landing site and execute a landing down to flare with the wheels just above whatever crop was growing in the choosen field. It is quite possible to save your bacon with a magnetic compass and it is the best instrument in the airplane.

 

travis

---

From: Tony Markl <ma...@intercom.net>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Mon, March 21, 2011 2:10:42 PM

[Tony Markl]

Doesn't ring any bells.

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Bob McGrath]

Would have been in the last couple of weeks. I am starting to have a real problem with people who ask for help and never acknowledge one's efforts to help them. It seems to happen altogether too often for me.

Bob 

[Stephen Briggs]

I always wondered why most of the reply answers in this group were authored by such a select few members. 

I tried to help the person who had the question about the Vert card compass in good faith.  I now feel like I should have butted out and let Cy and Tony provide the answers as they seem to have all the answers and want the last word on any subject.

I have learned my lesson, I will keep my fingers off the reply or send button in the future and not open myself up to a flood of responses telling me I've got it all wrong.

I now understand why other folks, who I know have experience and expertise, don't jump in and offer suggestions, the end result isn't worth the put down.

Regards, Steve in NH who has learned his lesson well...

[John Rodkey]

I'm sorry you feel this way, Steve.  I don't think this is the intent of Cy, Tony or others on the list.  There are times when a forceful repudiation of an unsafe suggestion is in order, but in most cases there are plenty of ways to skin a cat.  People have their favorite methods for doing various aviation related tasks, and there can be discussions about which methods are better.  Some suggestions, though, run afoul of accepted aircraft maintenance or operation standards.  When they do, those who have or currently work in the aircraft industry tend to be less open to alternative approaches.

I personally appreciate the years of experience that is represented by this list, and I believe that I am a direct beneficiary of that experience.  I hope that you will find a way to continue to make contributions to the list.  We need the confluence of new and established pilots to keep the pilot community healthy and growing.

John

--
John (poobah) Rodkey - N9361E 11AC at Goleta

[vand...@aol.com]

Steve
I am grateful for your advice and comments and for that from Cy,
Tony,and others. I hoped I had conveyed that in my responses. And in
fact I am following your suggestion regarding the vertical card
installation and Cy's on the brand.
As far as Tony's suggestion that one can merely calculate the
deflection in an unfamiliar aircraft and fly off on trip Florida up
the East Coast? Maybe he would but I don't have his skills or
experience. I wouldn't fly from Sebring to Ocala without knowing the
specific limitations of my compass and without a working OBS and hand
held GPS. Too many airspace restriction set by the FAA and the
military.
Please don't stop posting. Opinions and experience vary widely among
the folks on this list. And at times these may not be expressed with
the gentility of the discussions around the Rodkey dinner table.
Keep posting. I appreciate it.
Dan VdMeer

[Roger Anderson]

Just take the various personalities on here with a grain of salt (I've never known what that meant really), just as you do when communicating in person.  And no...I'm not referring specifically to Tony and Cy..but all of them.....Hi Joe.......  Some come across as opinionated (that couldn't be me), some passive and mild mannered, a moderate degree of  BS sometimes, and etc.....hey,  just like all your acquaintances out at the airport huh.   Oh...I've got one out there that drives me insane...but if you can live with that, he'll give you the shirt off his back...or at least lend me his engine hoist when I need it.   I've never met Cy.  I met Tony years ago at my first Middletown fly in.  Before introducing himself, he immediately chastised me for the type of tie downs I was using (actually, he was right and I got better ones right away when I got home.....just wish he hadn't hurt my feelings though....hey...not really).  But then he was really helpful about telling me about recovering, etc.   Anyhow, we all come across giving different impressions of personality...makes the world go around.  You should know me in person.....not!   My opinion

 

 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Briggs" <sibr...@hotmail.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu

[Rob McDonald]

Steve,

Roger said most of what I was going to say, so I won't repeat it, but I
will add, much of the value here is in the discussion of different
approaches. Most of us here are passionate about aviation, and
particularly aviation safety. Sometimes, as in this case, that
enthusiasm does not seem to leave much room for discussion. If I am in
the opposing camp I just agree to disagree. I know after more than a
decade here that this group have a real desire to help. Your questioning
of the "accepted wisdom" is the kind of thing that keeps us all
thinking. Please don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Rob

On Tue, 2011-03-22 at 13:08 +0000, Roger Anderson wrote:
> Just take the various personalities on here with a grain of salt .....

>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Briggs" <>
>

> I always wondered why most of the reply answers in this group were

> authored by such a select few members.....

[Dale P. Jewett]

Steve,

 

I completely second all of what Roger said. We all have different personalities, some more evident than others. BUT, we can all contribute in some way.

 

I particularly like what you said earlier about the McDowell starter. As you know, I have the Chief with that starter on it that you previously owned. I like the starter, but admit that it takes some care in proper useage.

 

Stay connected.

 

Dale Jewett

[Rich Dugger]

Me, too.

I am an angel in person but I simply can not get that across on a keyboard that does not give me the ability to convey how truly wonderful and forgiving I am.

 

Rich

who is packing up this week to head to Sun n Sun!!!

 

 

If you plan to forward this message please delete the previous forwards. Not only does it make it easier for your recipient to enjoy the message but it protects your email buddies addresses and privacy. It will be appreciated!

From: Roger Anderson

Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 8:08 AM

[j...@joea.com]

Rich,

Do not feel bad! I thought I was almost an angel but guess not. Did not even comment in this fiasco (ah
discussion thread) as I do not know everything, yet seems that I am slathered in the post below with
the stinky stuff anyway... hmmm.

Will continue to mostly shut up and let those who know it all keep helping! :)

Joe A

On 22 Mar 2011 at 9:48, Rich Dugger wrote:

>
> Me, too.
> I am an angel in person but I simply can not get that across on a keyboard that does not give me the
> ability to convey how truly wonderful and forgiving I am.
>
> Rich
> who is packing up this week to head to Sun n Sun!!!
>
>
> If you plan to forward this message please delete the previous forwards. Not only does it make it easier
> for your recipient to enjoy the message but it protects your email buddies addresses and privacy. It will be
> appreciated!
>
> From: Roger Anderson
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 8:08 AM
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> Subject: Re: [f-AA] #### I've learned my lesson...
>
>
>
> Just take the various personalities on here with a grain of salt (I've never known
> what that meant really), just as you do when communicating in person. And
> no...I'm not referring specifically to Tony and Cy..but all of them.....Hi Joe.......
> Some come across as opinionated (that couldn't be me), some passive and mild
> mannered, a moderate degree of BS sometimes, and etc.....hey, just like all
> your acquaintances out at the airport huh. Oh...I've got one out there that drives
> me insane...but if you can live with that, he'll give you the shirt off his back...or at

> least lend me his engine hoist when I need it.I've never met Cy. I met Tony

> years ago at my first Middletown fly in. Before introducing himself, he
> immediately chastised me for the type of tie downs I was using (actually, he was
> right and I got better ones right away when I got home.....just wish he hadn't hurt
> my feelings though....hey...not really). But then he was really helpful about

> telling me about recovering, etc. Anyhow, we all come acrossgiving different

[Richard Holcombe]

There are so many variables. The person seeking advice may want a solution to be signed off  and last for years to come, or he may just need a quick fix to get him to the next scheduled  maintenance. A compass may be worn out internally, low on fluid, have the wrong fluid, or the airframe could have picked up a magnetic field and need to be degaused. People ask for advice, and offer it from many perspectives, and all are valuable.

richard

[Tony Markl]

Dear Bob
 If that reference was to me I do apologize.  I try to acknowledge help, sometimes there are many who respond and then I just say thanks to all who responded.   

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Cy Galley]

Sorry that you feel put upon by my multiple answers. I, myself, am slow, forgetful, old, and have CRS.  At 77 I don’t always write a complete answer thru laziness or by CRS that forgets all the items that should be included. So when I remember additional items, I add them to the discussion. I try to work from past experiences and my extensive technical library. My pet Peeve is OWTs.

 

These messages for help are a two way street. I like seeing new items and procedures that I try to catalog for the next guy. Never know when one will need the information. For example; the Cub list has an inquiry about blue stains on PolyFiber.  Turns out that vinyl is subject to “Bee Stains” and the PolyFiber process is a vinyl process. I didn’t know that but now I do.

 

When I have given out erroneous information, I will try to quickly say so as the internet gives credence to most anything that one writes.

 

Cy

 

From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Anderson

Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 8:08 AM

[ginny wilken]

I agree with John here, Stephen. There is such a wealth of information, methods, and solutions, on this list that we all could feel the way you do once in a while. Honestly, whatever you said couldn't have been too bad, because I don't remember reacting to it, or to the other answers, in any emotional way.

They don't want the last word, but they are here to share their huge experience. That, as you must know, is no guarantee they have the latest and best idea - only another, the viewpoint of experience we don't have and can't get any other way.

Don't feel reticent. I value what you write. The group contribution reminds me of a poem along the lines of friendship being the ability to take one's words, good or bad, and toss them into the air, keeping the good and blowing away the chaff with the breath of kindness.

Stick around. Make noise:)

ginny

On Mar 21, 2011, at 9:28 PM, Stephen Briggs wrote:

>
> I always wondered why most of the reply answers in this group were authored by such a select few members.
>
> I tried to help the person who had the question about the Vert card compass in good faith. I now feel like I should have butted out and let Cy and Tony provide the answers as they seem to have all the answers and want the last word on any subject.
>
> I have learned my lesson, I will keep my fingers off the reply or send button in the future and not open myself up to a flood of responses telling me I've got it all wrong.
>
> I now understand why other folks, who I know have experience and expertise, don't jump in and offer suggestions, the end result isn't worth the put down.
>
> Regards, Steve in NH who has learned his lesson well...

All stunts performed without a net!

[Bob McGrath]

Hey, Tony.  NO reference to you at all. But the guy to whom I recommended you would have been nice if he had let me know if my suggestion was worth anything to him. If he followed up or intended to follow up. He's not a member of this group. But I have experienced this on several occasions. Here and elsewhere. And it makes one wonder "why bother?" I've been around a little and try to share what I've learned in 55 years of flying and many years as an  A&P/IA. Especially when I am aware of folks like you who might help someone. I have one pilot/A&P/IA friend about my age who calls me Mr dogdroppings because he says I must have been on every sidewalk in the country since everywhere he goes he encounters someone who knows me.   Good friends are allowed to say things like that!

Keep smilin',

[dickn...@ca.rr.com]

Stephen,
never be afraid to put in your two cents worth. Sometimes the obvious will evade the best experts and a fresh view is what is needed. I've seen that as an a/c mechanic, as a machinist, as a tool maker and as a clerk in purchasing. The psychological term is functional fixedness. It means always seeing thing the same way.

Dick Winn

[Tony Markl]

Dear Stephen
Perhaps there is an experience level difference here OR how one was trained originally.  My first students were trained in pilotage and DR in a Champ and a Super Cub.  Neither one had VOR.  To pass their Private test they had to show that they could dial in a VOR and follow that radial to the station.  They did all their XC time in the Champ and Cub and then we rented a C172 to fly to Wichita where the test was given and on the way they practiced following the ICT radial.

Nowadays my tailwheel students tell me about how great their GPS is and they cannot find an airport that is 12 or 22 miles away from the takeoff point.  No, this is not an isolated case.  I have had about a dozen that actually got lost in between two airports like this.  I do not save them but let them use their own ideas on how to find the airport.  This is not "tailwheel training"   but rather "remedial" training.   Most of them have never been lost before.  The record is 57 minutes to make a 22 mile trip.   The destination airport has a railroad to the north of it, High power lines just to the west, and the only real highway just to the west of it.  A little further west is the ONLY 4 land divided highway on the Eastern Shore of MD.     I am really distressed by the quality of modern pilot training as these poorly trained pilots will keep the accident rate up and get the rest of us more rules.

Flight Safety Int. has a great sign in their training place.  "The best safety device in an airplane is a well trained pilot"

I invite you to take yourself on some cross country trips to small airports where you have never been before, leave your GPS at home, and do not turn on the VOR, and cover your compass with a Dixie cup.  Now you will have to do Pilotage and Dead Reckoning navigation to reach the destination.   Think how well you will feel about your abilities when you reach this place.    Charles Lindbergh reached Paris by this means - certainly he would have loved a GPS but then who would be impressed???

In the days when I trained folks to become Private pilots the 2 hour dual XC went like this.   Leg #1 you fly pilotage having drawn a line on the chart with 10nm marks along the course and before takeoff you tell me the Mag course you are flying and your ETA.   Leg #2 is Dead reckoning and you fly from initial leveloff at 700
AGL to 3 minutes before your ETA Under the Hood.  At 3 minutes I take your hood down an you figure out where the airport is.  This is a great lesson in how to do a square search.    Leg #3 is a VOR leg if you have done the other two decently.  I would do this in a C172 with other students in the back watching and learning.

Just more OMO as is everything I say.   Did you find my report on "airstarting" a Champ or the one on all the Glide and Climb slopes, rates of climb and speeds to be helpful to you?   What about the one on "air turnbacks"?

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[berthelsdorf]

Tony, have you ever considered writing a book?  I would be first in line to buy one.

 

 

Regards:

Victor
http://www.kaleidoscope-glass.com/

[Tony Buttacavoli]

Tony, you are so right,it was so liberating for me a few years ago to leave all the avionics behind and strap on a 7AC with just a whiskey compass and a folded sectional and fly a mini x country just by pilotage alone. when i was a student pilot all my x countries were strictly pilotage. flying a wind corrected heading,keeping a nav log, watching the firetowers, and other checkpoints slide by,and behind me ,and ultimately having the destination aerodrome show up when and where it was supposed to be was a tremendous confidence booster, we were trained well,Chris Heinl ,a Huey door gunner and crew chief in the 'Nam was the CFI who shepherded me through my PPL,a great instructor, I hope he ended up left seat in a 747 somewhere. --- On Tue, 3/22/11, berthelsdorf <berthe...@embarqmail.com> wrote:

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

[Stephen Briggs]

Gee Tony, you're making alot of assumptions about my abilities, Perhaps a little bio of my experience will help.  I have an ATP, been flying since 67, was an mechanic on B-47's, have flown to Point Barrow, Ak, and to the Bahamas, built a Vari-Eze in 78, restored 2 chiefs and an Apache, worked with Mike Melville and Burt Rutan, Have logged many hours in sea planes, bird-dogs, lakes, mooney's, C-120's, 310's, gliders, flown aerobatics, in all 27 different aircraft, have flow many hours of search and rescue here in NH and maine, tracked and found a crashed 172 at 4am one morning as part of that volunteer experience.  I too am an instructor and won't allow my students to use and auto-pilot or gps in instrument training.  I have logged over 600, hours of single pilot actual IFR witout the aide of an autopilot, many, many actual approaches to minimums both night and day.

I may not have the same set of experiences as you, but I never make suggestions to others without having personal experience with the subject I am talking about, hence my favorable feelings about the Vertical Card Compass and the McDowell starter.  I'm not a big fan of EFIS and some of the newer coupled GPS do everything boxes, so no I'm not pushing new technology, just happen to think the vert card compass is a big improvement over what I used for years.

Try flying over 500 miles of tundra and through mountains (the distance from Point Barrow to Fairbanks) without vor's adf's, loran, or gps, using just Pilotage and Dead Reckoning navigation, I've done that, if you choose the wrong mountain pass in the Brooks range and fly up a box canyon you may not get out, There are no landing spots and fuel is critical.

Hope this helps you understand where I'm coming from.

Regards, Steve in NH
________________________________
> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 14:17:20 -0400
> From: ma...@intercom.net
> To: aer...@westmont.edu

> Subject: Re: [f-AA] I've learned my lesson...
>

[Richard Holcombe]

We need all the voices we can get. It is so much better to learn from other's mistakes. One bad screw up would end my flying career, and I don't want that to happen.

Richard in Florence

[Bob McGrath]

I think we should have learned some things from some of these comments:

-We are not perfect but are better than most because, after all, we fly Aeronca's

-Each of knows something that the rest of us don't know. And have had unique experiences. This makes "the rest of us" lucky

-I think each of us cares about the others both from the personal and the aviation safety point of view

-I think each of us reacts in a unique way to comments by others. My opinion is that this is great because it means we are thinking

-I have never seen anything here that would make me think that one of us is "attacking" another of us

- I sometimes post comments that only I think are funny. We are all friends are we not

-We owe Mr Rodkey big-time for this opportunity

-What makes me think that I am the group philosopher?

Onward and upward (slowly-500fpm?)

[Tony Markl]

Dear Victor
A book about what??   I actually am writing a book (very slowly) about my year in Vietnam as the first USAF Skyraider pilot.  We actually trained VNAF to fly the A-1 and were "advisors".

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Bob McGrath]

In my opinion, everybody here should have a copy of Tony's Book, Fabric Work Tips and Techniques. I've always considered myself a competent dope and fabric guy. After reading this book I am humbled!!! Even if you don't do it yourself this book will give you a sharper eye when looking over you’re A&P's shoulder.  And I don't even know Tony except through this group.

Bob

[Tony Markl]

Dear Steve
Sure does shed some light.   Don't you dare leave this list as you have too much experience that most of us don't have!!

Now that we have successfully ruffled each other's feathers I would buy you a drink and listen to flying stories if we ever cross paths.  Where were you a B-47 mechanic?  My first assignment out of USAF pilot training was to the back seat of the B-47 in Salina KS.

This child knows nothing about mountain flying and never accepted aircraft deliveries requiring this knowledge.  Perhaps you could make some comments on this subject for the benefit of those who are flying low horsepower Aeroncas in these areas.   Even better - send an article on this subject to Robert Szego who needs articles for the next issue of the Aeronca Aviators Club magazine.

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Tony Markl]

Dear Bob
Thank you for the kind words.  Would it be alright for me to add your comments to the "testimonials "on my website??

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Bob McGrath]

Perfectly  alright. I would be proud.

[berthelsdorf]

I was thinking something along the lines of general tips and knowledge related to flying the small tube and fabric conventional gear planes that we use. Something on the lines of your reports on air starting, rates of climb and speeds, experiences in instructing etc.

[Stephen Briggs]

You're on for the drink, I finished my chief-11BC last fall, have 12 hours on it, I spent about $2500 for a DER to bless the paperwork and help me get 7FC wing tanks approved by the Feds.  Built new champ wings with the 13 gal tanks, has an O-200 and a Vertical Card compass ..  :<)  Complete rebuild from bead blasted fuselage to final product, all new wood, etc.

I suspect it's one of the only chiefs flying with no fuel in the cabin.  I plan to make some trips this summer and go to the Aeronca fly-in with it in the fall.

I worked on the 47's at Pease, photo attached, they were phased out about the same time that I phased out of the USAF.

Regards, Steve
________________________________
> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 21:51:53 -0400

[Stephen Briggs]

Tony, here's a copy of the chief fuel system that was approved after much effort with the FAA.

Steve

[John Rodkey]

How many gallons does each wing tank hold? 
Nicely done sketch, Steve:  looks like it could have come out of the original Chief manual.

John

On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Stephen Briggs <sibr...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Tony, here's a copy of the chief fuel system that was approved after much effort with the FAA.

Steve



                                         

_______________________________________________
Aeronca mailing list
Aer...@westmont.edu
http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

[John Rodkey]

Steve, tell us more about the time in Alaska!  I'm always interested in Alaskan and mountain flying stories. 
My wife jeanne grew up in the wilds of Alaska, flying with her dad between villages in less than ideal conditions.  I'd love to learn about the reality of flying in the bush from the perspective of an experienced pilot. 

John

[j...@joea.com]

Very nice! Glad to see that the feds approved it!

Joe A

On 22 Mar 2011 at 23:19, Stephen Briggs wrote:

>
> Tony, here's a copy of the chief fuel system that was approved after much effort with the FAA.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>

[Rob McDonald]

Steve,

Could you forward a copy of your paperwork for this to Todd for
inclusion on the Aeronca web site? There may be a Chief owner out there
who could use it as a start toward a similar mod.

Rob

On Tue, 2011-03-22 at 23:19 -0400, Stephen Briggs wrote:
> Tony, here's a copy of the chief fuel system that was approved after much effort with the FAA.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>

[John Rodkey]

I just glanced back at Steve's previous post, and it's two 13 gallon wing tanks.

John, who knows it's generally bad form to reply to one's own message.

[Tony Markl]

You're taking me back more than 50 years  - that sure was a fine looking airplane.  Seems to me that I went to the altitude chamber at Pease in '59 or so.

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Tony Markl]

Sure glad I have a Champ.  My fuel system tubing is about 6' long for 3 tanks.

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

On 3/22/11 11:19 PM, Stephen Briggs wrote:

Tony, here's a copy of the chief fuel system that was approved after much effort with the FAA.

Steve



 		 	   		  

_______________________________________________
Aeronca mailing list
Aer...@westmont.edu
http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

[Stephen Briggs]

Yes Tony,  but I'm sure glad I no longer have fuel in the cabin we me, this keeps it all in the wings like the later champs.

---

Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 13:25:29 -0400
From: ma...@intercom.net
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Fuel System 11BC Chief Drawing

[Tony Markl]

Thanks for the compliment but I will be used up literally when the Skyraider book is done.

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Travis Gregory]

I was eager to see this as a BC owner but when I try to open it I get warnings.

 

travis

---

From: "j...@joea.com" <j...@joea.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 12:05:43 AM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Fuel System 11BC Chief Drawing

[Don Harvie]

Hi Steve,

What effect did removing the 15Gal & 8Gal aux tank have on W&B?
I'd imagine that overall it would move the CoG to the rear?

What arm did you use for the Wing tanks?

For Dad's Chief which also has two 13Gal wing tanks I used +24 for the
arm, which is the same as the 13Gal tank in the 7EC IIRC.

But unlike yours he left the 15 & 8 Gal tanks in place. (Long story
short, airfield here in Aus tend to be long distances apart of most
don't have fuel). The wing tanks drain into the main when it's near empty.

Thanks,
Don

On 23/03/2011 2:19 PM, Stephen Briggs wrote:
>
> Tony, here's a copy of the chief fuel system that was approved after much effort with the FAA.
>
> Steve
>

_______________________________________________

[Stephen Briggs]

I sent out a zip file which is fairly large and contains all the documents supporting and including the 337.   I guarantee there are no virus in it.  I haven't seen it show up in the group yet.  Perhaps it is to large for the Aeronca server to forward.  If someone wants it I will send it off line via my gmail account.

Steve

---

Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 18:10:40 -0700
From: nc4...@yahoo.com
To: aer...@westmont.edu

[Stephen Briggs]

The CG is actually much more stable.  Don't forget I added an O-200, it also has the B&C Specialty lightweight starter and alternator alonf with a metal prop.  The  flue tanks are located exactly over the empty weight CG.  So when fuel is burned the CG doesn't change more than an inch.  CG in right in the mid-range of factory specs.  I like it better than the original chief because the rear aux tank would cause an aft CG when it was full.  That is no longer a problem.   I weight the aircraft with no fuel computed CG, then filled the tanks and weight it as second time to see what the change would be,  no more than a inch and still in the middle of factory specs on the TC. 

Your solution is an easier one to get approved by the Feds, because there is very little change to the fuel system plumbing.  If you fill all the tanks you must be pretty close to gross or over.

Steve

> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 12:48:23 +1100
> From: donh...@yahoo.com.au
> To: aer...@westmont.edu

> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Fuel System 11BC Chief Drawing
>

[Travis Gregory]

Steve,

 

I'd love to see it all.

 

travis gregory

11BC NC4022E

Lgrif...@msn.com

 

---

From: Stephen Briggs <sibr...@hotmail.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 9:04:46 PM

[Sam Burke]

Steve and Others,

Thanks for the input, I have placed an order for the balance balls from Aircraft Spruce. I am determined to get this vertical card compass to be as good as it can get. I do love the situation awareness that I get when I am arriving at an uncontrolled airport and I hear traffic reported to the north of the airport and another to the south-east of the airport, I can look at my vertical card compass like a gyro and get a good feel for where the traffic is. It also helps me in the reporting of my position on arrival and departure from an uncontrolled airport.

Thanks to all who have given input here, I will let you know how it works out

Regards,
Sam Burke Red Flicker N6404C 1947 L16A

[Don Harvie]

Thanks Steve,

With full fuel in all tanks the pilot needs to be 44lbs or less to be
legal on paper. But Dad also added the extra fuselage - firewall bracing
that I think the 11CC Super Chief has, (don't quote me I might have that
wrong going from memory here at work).

Our feds downunder work a little differently to the FAA - Somethings are
easier to get done while others are can be harder.

Around the patch we fly on main only and whatever happens to be in the
rear Aux tank from the last long flight.

Dad is just about to head off on the RAAF pilgrimage - It's the 90th
Aniversary of the RAAF and they'd organised about 60 ex-military &
vintage aircraft into the pilgrimage and are touring around some ex-ww2
training airfields before ending up at the Antique Aeroplane Assoc. of
Aus. National fly-in in a weeks time. He thinks he could almost do the
entire weeks flying without needing fuel - 48 Gallons if everything is full.

I don't think he's ever had it full in all four tanks either.

How does your aircraft perform with the O-200 and what diameter/pitch
prop are you using?

Don

[Ian Harvie]

Steve, been away at the airfield getting ready for the big "Pilgrimage"
To answer a few points, yes I'm over gross with all tanks full but it
doesn't make any difference to the way it gets off the ground and flies.
sure it may be not legal, lets hope a have burnt a bit off before I
crash :-) I weigh the same as I did when I was twenty, 140#. Helps to
have holes drilled in the handle of your tooth brush as well, when on a
long trip.
Just over a year ago I set off for the annual "Auster" fly in run by the
AAAA at Broken Hill. I wasn't quite full when I left the home field at
0630 in the morning. I had horrendous head winds and stopped at a place
called Parkes to top the tanks, all of them. I had averaged about 35
knots GS on that leg of a couple of hours. I pressed on and there was no
fuel for the next leg of 6 hours 45 minutes. I did stop at a place
called Ivanhoe but unless you walk to the local garage with some cans
for mogas there is no fuel.
I got to Broken Hill at 1800 hours that evening, total elapsed time 11
1/2 hours, total flight time 8 hours 45 minutes. Not bad for a little
old puddle jumper Chief, but that is what you will find if you have to
fly anywhere in the outback in Australia.
For the next trip (I'm leaving Saturday) I have main full, right wing
tank full Aux full and about 3 gallons in the left wing tank.

Ian PS I have a C-85.

>> > What effect did removing the 15Gal& 8Gal aux tank have on W&B?

>> > I'd imagine that overall it would move the CoG to the rear?
>> >
>> > What arm did you use for the Wing tanks?
>> >
>> > For Dad's Chief which also has two 13Gal wing tanks I used +24 for the
>> > arm, which is the same as the 13Gal tank in the 7EC IIRC.
>> >

>> > But unlike yours he left the 15& 8 Gal tanks in place. (Long story

[Stephen Briggs]

Hi Don, I have a 69x52 Sensenich, I get about 1k ft per min when I'm by myself with 95-100 cruise, second person reduces climb to around 700-800.  I should mention I put on the  on vortex generator kit.   the VG's seem to improve the climb performance nicely.

Steve

> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:14:50 +1100

[Richard Holcombe]

Let us know how it goes swinging the thing with the new balls. I used a borrowed degauser on my airframe with uncertain results and have never been able to get my panel mounted airpath to be better than so so. I've had to learn to rely on my eyes and good judgement for situational awareness as the airpath is only marginally usefull.

Richard in Florence

[Stephen Briggs]

Hi, I just got an email saying it was from UPS for a package delivery notice, just click on the zip file to see the details....  NO!!!!

If you get such an email don't open it.  Vendors don't send out zip files with that data, they send the tracking number in the email and you go to UPS.com to enter the tracking number and see it yourself.

Steve

[Dale P. Jewett]

Steve,

 

Seems that I am also getting a lot more SPAM or "EVIL" messages these days. Probably the spammers are getting smarter about getting past firewalls.

 

Dale Jewett

[John Rodkey]

Steve posted some documents on this to the list, but at about 5 Mb each, they were too big.
I've placed them on
http://aeronca.westmont.edu/pics/sibriggs/1177ChiefTanks_4-14-08Rpt.doc
and
http://aeronca.westmont.edu/pics/sibriggs/Chief_13gal_Tanks.zip

so they can be downloaded by those who are interested.  The following is the text that went along with the documents:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Stephen Briggs <sibr...@hotmail.com>
To: <aer...@westmont.edu>

Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 09:49:23 -0400
Subject: RE: [f-AA] Fuel System 11BC Chief Drawing - Paper work summary
Summary
 
This report summarizes the review completed to assess the installation of twin 13 gallon fuel tanks in the 11BC aircraft under restoration.  See page 20 for a typical installation.
 
All components used are either original/rebuilt, new manufacture PMA’d or supplied by the manufacturer or its approved suppliers. Documentation supporting the materials and hardware choices made in this restoration has been reviewed and is in the owners’ file for N3EV.  Page 19 herein summarizes the status, source and qualification/certification of fuel system components.
 
Of major concern in this review was confirmation that the wing in the 11BC Chief was identical to that in the 7AC Champ that has this dual wing tank system as an option.  That confirmation was provided by American Champion Aircraft via fax on March 8, 2008 that included a portion of a supporting drawing.  For reference that confirming data is provided herein on page 16.  Note 116 in TCDS A-769 for the Champion discusses the 26 gallon tank option using Kit 192 and drawings used for this alteration to N3EV.
 
Always of concern when upgrading the engine on a small general aviation airplane like this project is assurance that the fuel tanks have sufficient capacity to meet FAA requirements.  In this situation, the Certification Basis for 11BC/N3EV is CAR4a the predecessor series of regulations to the current applicable 14CFR Part 23.
 
At certification in August 1947, N3EV was required to have a minimum fuel capacity of 0.15 gallons per maximum (except take-off) horsepower for which the aircraft is certified (Per CAR 4a.605).  As originally equipped, the 11BC aircraft had a Continental C-85-8F engine of 85 Hp and had a standard fuel tank of 15.5 gallons.
 
Per the CAR citation, 85 x .15 = 12.75 gallons minimum which meets the tankage requirements.  Similarly with the current 100 Hp, 0-200 engine, 100 x .15 = 15 gallons and the originally tank of 15.5 gallons would be marginally acceptable.   There is no question of adequacy with the new 26 gallon wing tank system.
 
Current requirements to FAR 23.25 (a) (2), (i), (B), “At least enough fuel for maximum continuous power operation of at least 30 minutes for day-VFR approved airplanes and at least 45 minutes for night-VFR and IFR approved airplanes”.   Published data for the TCM O-200 engines have a Specific Fuel Consumption of .52 #/BHP/hr or 52 #/hr for the O-200/100Hp at 2750 rpm which yields 52/6 #/gal = 8.66 gallons /hr.  At 45 minutes elapsed time, the consumption would be approximately .75(8.66) = 6.49 gallons.  The 26 gallon system is adequate to meet this requirement.

[Richard Jeffryes]

I was wondering if I'd ever find an oleo with the phenolic piston, but today
I found one. I was breaking parts down so I could throw them in the solvent
sink, and attacked the 3 oleos that came from the last barn. The axles and
oleo cases were still on the oleos, along with the retainer cables. Two oleo
pistons were aluminum, and one was phenolic. True to the AD, the phenolic
piston is broken, the retainer cable saved the day. There is some minor
damage to the top of the oleo where the packing goes in, and the oleo shaft
will not pull out, so some of the piston must still be on the shaft. I'll
take a Dremel and open it up after I clean it.

So I guess there are still some original oleos out there, and if your
Aeronca still has retainer cables, I'd be checking for a broken piston.

Richard in Creswell, forever cleaning parts

[Bob McGrath]

Interesting. But MY Chief has the retainer cables even though they are no
longer required. I put them on as a "belt and suspenders" kind of maneuver!!
I took my first hour of dual in 1955 and I'm still scared.
Bob

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Richard Jeffryes" <richard....@centurytel.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:42 PM
To: <aer...@westmont.edu>
Subject: [f-AA] Found A Phenolic Oleo Piston

[tt...@aol.com]

Richard,

 

Can you take a few good pictures of it before it is destroyed.  I'd like to add a few photos of it to the service letter on the website.

 

Todd Trainor

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Jeffryes <richard....@centurytel.net>
To: aeronca <aer...@westmont.edu>
Sent: Thu, Mar 24, 2011 8:43 pm
Subject: [f-AA] Found A Phenolic Oleo Piston

[Bob McGrath]

Ian, your kinds of experiences are the sort of thing that help keep us OF's
young
Bob OF33I25

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ian Harvie" <ianh...@internode.on.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 4:36 AM

[Richard Jeffryes]

I'm not going to destroy it, I'm going to use a Dremel and carefully take the top off. It's brazed on, and I think I can seperate it with little damage. I found a Dremel with a thin cutting wheel to work great for removing damaged landing gear fittings, so I thought I'd try it for this.

 

I'll take pictures of everything after I clean it all up. I'll try and get a picture looking in the oil fill hole at the phenolic piston, and if that works a picture of an aluminum one.

 

Richard in Creswell, who should mention a Dremel is kind of slow

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---

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Version: 9.0.894 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3526 - Release Date: 03/24/11 00:34:00

[Richard Jeffryes]

I didn't throw the retainers I have away, I wondered if you could use them
on long stroke gear to limit the stroke?

That raises a question, does long stroke gear have more drag? My wild guess
says it does.

Richard in Creswell, who knows that 8.50 tires have more drag

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Version: 9.0.894 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3526 - Release Date: 03/24/11
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[Richard Jeffryes]

I'll also measure the length of the cylinder before I take it apart, it should be as long as the day it was made. Which reminded me, I have a stray oleo that I think might be off of an L-3, it is much shorter. I'll dig it out and measure it too, and take some side by side pictures of the different length cylinders.

 

I'm thinking I could fill a page in the Aeronca Aviator if the pictures of the phenolic bushing turn out.

 

Richard in Creswell, number 8

[Don Harvie]

Thanks Steve,

Dad's got a C-85 with O-200 crank rods etc. on the way from Don Swords
and I was wondering what it might perform like. From what Travis has
said we should be in for a treat. ;-)

Dad's prop on the current C-85 is a metal Sensenich 72" dia. 46" pitch
and it's possible to go over redline in level flight. So I think
something a bit coarser might be needed with the new engine. Getting the
existing prop re-pitched is not a option as it's already been re-pitched
from 38" and has reached the limit for re-pitching.

Somewhere he's got a 69" dia O-200 prop that might be worth trying but I
think the smaller diameter will be less efficient on the C-85.

Dad also has a VG kit which hasn't been fitted yet.

Don H

[j...@joea.com]

Chief owner on our field just opened up the oleo's on the plane and one of them had the phenolic
piston in it. Since the AD that should have gotten rid of these is only 70 or so years old, one would think
that eventually we will get all of these replaced!

Joe A