[f-AA] This close to buying a 7AC... some questions post pre-buy

[Atlas Wegman]

Hello all!  

First time posting here, I hope this is all right.  I have been looking at a 1946 7AC near me.  The basics: 1586 Airframe Total Time. Continental A-65-8F with Millennium cylinders. Overhauled in 2002 by Pine Mountain. TTE: 2049. SMOH: 545. Sensenich Prop, Slick mags, and a Reiff preheater.  So far so good!  The plane has a wag-aero toe brake STC.  I own and fly a 172 so have club's for feet ;) I will be keeping the 172, and like having toe brakes in both planes.

I had my mechanic come and do a pre-buy of the plane.  Most things are good, some things are a little ehh.  I come to the experts in search of clarity!

1. The plane has a 9 gallon wing tank, only in the left wing.  Have you all ever heard of something like this?  The owner states it's from the factory.  All my research has pulled up no information.  It is placarded 5.5 on the wing, but is apparently 9.  Any information on this would be appreciated... pictures from the tank during the 2002 rebuild are shown below.

2. Both wings have what appear to be thin aluminum angle cross bracing.  I wish I had a picture, but for some reason do not.  You could see it through the inspection holes.  It is maybe 1 inch thick piece of thin aluminum.  It looks like the wing lacing above.  On the RH wing, the aluminum is intact.  On the LH wing, the aluminum is cut.  It looks maybe as if to clear some rigging?  Or maybe due to wing tank?  If this makes any sense to anyone, please do let me know.

3. The rigging appears somewhat slack.  I flew the plane (but have 0 other hrs in a Champ, and only 4hrs in a J3) and it flew fine to my untrained eye.  When looking through the inspection covers, the rigging overhead seemed to touch each other, and one of the wings had what looked like electrical tape to prevent chaffing.

4. The RH oleo strut sits two fingers high, the LH strut three or four fingers high.

5. Lowest compression 61.  It has been sitting for three months so I believe these will come back up with use.

Other than the above, I like the plane.  It is priced at $22k.  It's going through annual now and will have the mags freshly redone, they are at 500hrs.  With no other 7AC experience, I don't have anything to base this on.  Should I walk away?  Run away?  Go for it and have fun?  It has very complete logs, including the first test flight back in February of '46.  Any advice appreciated -- thank you!

 

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[Roger Anderson]

Welcome Atlas.  You're at the right place.  Lots of knowledge here (just not from me though).   However, assuming you get positive answers for your other questions, it seems to me that $22,000 for a fresh annual, serviced mags 7AC is a good deal.  Reference the oleos, if you wish, Dave Rude on here can rebuild them to like new for a very fair price.   Again, welcome.  roger.....11AC...but former 7AC and 7DC kinda guy.  

['A A' via aeronca]

By any chance is that Mike Steele's 11AC?

Andrew ( Derswede)

On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:10 PM, Roger Anderson <11...@comcast.net> wrote:

Welcome Atlas.  You're at the right place.  Lots of knowledge here (just not from me though).   However, assuming you get positive answers for your other questions, it seems to me that $22,000 for a fresh annual, serviced mags 7AC is a good deal.  Reference the oleos, if you wish, Dave Rude on here can rebuild them to like new for a very fair price.   Again, welcome.  roger.....11AC...but former 7AC and 7DC kinda guy.  

On November 9, 2018 at 8:47 AM Atlas Wegman <agw...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello all!  

First time posting here, I hope this is all right.  I have been looking at a 1946 7AC near me.  The basics: 1586 Airframe Total Time. Continental A-65-8F with Millennium cylinders. Overhauled in 2002 by Pine Mountain. TTE: 2049. SMOH: 545. Sensenich Prop, Slick mags, and a Reiff preheater.  So far so good!  The plane has a wag-aero toe brake STC.  I own and fly a 172 so have club's for feet ;) I will be keeping the 172, and like having toe brakes in both planes.

I had my mechanic come and do a pre-buy of the plane.  Most things are good, some things are a little ehh.  I come to the experts in search of clarity!

1. The plane has a 9 gallon wing tank, only in the left wing.  Have you all ever heard of something like this?  The owner states it's from the factory.  All my research has pulled up no information.  It is placarded 5.5 on the wing, but is apparently 9.  Any information on this would be appreciated... pictures from the tank during the 2002 rebuild are shown below.

2. Both wings have what appear to be thin aluminum angle cross bracing.  I wish I had a picture, but for some reason do not.  You could see it through the inspection holes.  It is maybe 1 inch thick piece of thin aluminum.  It looks like the wing lacing above.  On the RH wing, the aluminum is intact.  On the LH wing, the aluminum is cut.  It looks maybe as if to clear some rigging?  Or maybe due to wing tank?  If this makes any sense to anyone, please do let me know.

3. The rigging appears somewhat slack.  I flew the plane (but have 0 other hrs in a Champ, and only 4hrs in a J3) and it flew fine to my untrained eye.  When looking through the inspection covers, the rigging overhead seemed to touch each other, and one of the wings had what looked like electrical tape to prevent chaffing.

4. The RH oleo strut sits two fingers high, the LH strut three or four fingers high.

5. Lowest compression 61.  It has been sitting for three months so I believe these will come back up with use.

Other than the above, I like the plane.  It is priced at $22k.  It's going through annual now and will have the mags freshly redone, they are at 500hrs.  With no other 7AC experience, I don't have anything to base this on.  Should I walk away?  Run away?  Go for it and have fun?  It has very complete logs, including the first test flight back in February of '46.  Any advice appreciated -- thank you!

<IMG_0609.jpeg> <IMG_0601.jpeg><IMG_0897.png>

 

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['A A' via aeronca]

Read the model wrong. Apologies!

Derswede

On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:12 AM, 'A A' via aeronca <aer...@westmont.edu> wrote:

By any chance is that Mike Steele's 11AC?

Andrew ( Derswede)

On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:10 PM, Roger Anderson <11...@comcast.net> wrote:

Welcome Atlas.  You're at the right place.  Lots of knowledge here (just not from me though).   However, assuming you get positive answers for your other questions, it seems to me that $22,000 for a fresh annual, serviced mags 7AC is a good deal.  Reference the oleos, if you wish, Dave Rude on here can rebuild them to like new for a very fair price.   Again, welcome.  roger.....11AC...but former 7AC and 7DC kinda guy.  

On November 9, 2018 at 8:47 AM Atlas Wegman <agw...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello all!  

First time posting here, I hope this is all right.  I have been looking at a 1946 7AC near me.  The basics: 1586 Airframe Total Time. Continental A-65-8F with Millennium cylinders. Overhauled in 2002 by Pine Mountain. TTE: 2049. SMOH: 545. Sensenich Prop, Slick mags, and a Reiff preheater.  So far so good!  The plane has a wag-aero toe brake STC.  I own and fly a 172 so have club's for feet ;) I will be keeping the 172, and like having toe brakes in both planes.

I had my mechanic come and do a pre-buy of the plane.  Most things are good, some things are a little ehh.  I come to the experts in search of clarity!

1. The plane has a 9 gallon wing tank, only in the left wing.  Have you all ever heard of something like this?  The owner states it's from the factory.  All my research has pulled up no information.  It is placarded 5.5 on the wing, but is apparently 9.  Any information on this would be appreciated... pictures from the tank during the 2002 rebuild are shown below.

<IMG_0945.jpeg><IMG_0944.jpeg>

[Cove Helicopter]

Atlas

I have a 46 for sale, oleos redone a couple a couple years back with no none issues for $25,000 in trade a plane, great flying plane.

This one the oleos set very high and it turned out they have the wrong springs when assembled. Bill Pancake straighten them out for me, so you’re in the right place for advice.

Jim

1944 TAC

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:10 AM, Roger Anderson <11...@comcast.net> wrote:

Welcome Atlas.  You're at the right place.  Lots of knowledge here (just not from me though).   However, assuming you get positive answers for your other questions, it seems to me that $22,000 for a fresh annual, serviced mags 7AC is a good deal.  Reference the oleos, if you wish, Dave Rude on here can rebuild them to like new for a very fair price.   Again, welcome.  roger.....11AC...but former 7AC and 7DC kinda guy.  

On November 9, 2018 at 8:47 AM Atlas Wegman <agw...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello all!  

First time posting here, I hope this is all right.  I have been looking at a 1946 7AC near me.  The basics: 1586 Airframe Total Time. Continental A-65-8F with Millennium cylinders. Overhauled in 2002 by Pine Mountain. TTE: 2049. SMOH: 545. Sensenich Prop, Slick mags, and a Reiff preheater.  So far so good!  The plane has a wag-aero toe brake STC.  I own and fly a 172 so have club's for feet ;) I will be keeping the 172, and like having toe brakes in both planes.

I had my mechanic come and do a pre-buy of the plane.  Most things are good, some things are a little ehh.  I come to the experts in search of clarity!

1. The plane has a 9 gallon wing tank, only in the left wing.  Have you all ever heard of something like this?  The owner states it's from the factory.  All my research has pulled up no information.  It is placarded 5.5 on the wing, but is apparently 9.  Any information on this would be appreciated... pictures from the tank during the 2002 rebuild are shown below.

<IMG_0944.jpeg>

2. Both wings have what appear to be thin aluminum angle cross bracing.  I wish I had a picture, but for some reason do not.  You could see it through the inspection holes.  It is maybe 1 inch thick piece of thin aluminum.  It looks like the wing lacing above.  On the RH wing, the aluminum is intact.  On the LH wing, the aluminum is cut.  It looks maybe as if to clear some rigging?  Or maybe due to wing tank?  If this makes any sense to anyone, please do let me know.

3. The rigging appears somewhat slack.  I flew the plane (but have 0 other hrs in a Champ, and only 4hrs in a J3) and it flew fine to my untrained eye.  When looking through the inspection covers, the rigging overhead seemed to touch each other, and one of the wings had what looked like electrical tape to prevent chaffing.

4. The RH oleo strut sits two fingers high, the LH strut three or four fingers high.

5. Lowest compression 61.  It has been sitting for three months so I believe these will come back up with use.

Other than the above, I like the plane.  It is priced at $22k.  It's going through annual now and will have the mags freshly redone, they are at 500hrs.  With no other 7AC experience, I don't have anything to base this on.  Should I walk away?  Run away?  Go for it and have fun?  It has very complete logs, including the first test flight back in February of '46.  Any advice appreciated -- thank you!

 <IMG_0897.png>

 

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[David Rude]

The tank shown in picture IMG_0945 looks like  a 13 gallon Aeronca tank.

 

However I do not see a drag wire going thru it in the front. Nor do I see an anti-drag going thru it in the back.

 

Also I do not see a fuel fitting in the back of the tank (I see it in the front) should see both.

 

I should see all these thinks in a wing ready to cover. Do you see any on them or is it just me?

 

Also are these "oddities" documented in the aircraft records?

 

I would get a person that is familiar with Aeronca Champs to look at it.

 

Dave Rude

 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Atlas Wegman" [agw...@gmail.com]
Date: 11/09/2018 09:47 AM
To: "fearless Aeronca Aviators" <f-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [f-AA] This close to buying a 7AC... some questions post pre-buy

Hello all!  

 

First time posting here, I hope this is all right.  I have been looking at a 1946 7AC near me.  The basics: 1586 Airframe Total Time. Continental A-65-8F with Millennium cylinders. Overhauled in 2002 by Pine Mountain. TTE: 2049. SMOH: 545. Sensenich Prop, Slick mags, and a Reiff preheater.  So far so good!  The plane has a wag-aero toe brake STC.  I own and fly a 172 so have club's for feet ;) I will be keeping the 172, and like having toe brakes in both planes.

 

I had my mechanic come and do a pre-buy of the plane.  Most things are good, some things are a little ehh.  I come to the experts in search of clarity!

 

1. The plane has a 9 gallon wing tank, only in the left wing.  Have you all ever heard of something like this?  The owner states it's from the factory.  All my research has pulled up no information.  It is placarded 5.5 on the wing, but is apparently 9.  Any information on this would be appreciated... pictures from the tank during the 2002 rebuild are shown below.

 

 

2. Both wings have what appear to be thin aluminum angle cross bracing.  I wish I had a picture, but for some reason do not.  You could see it through the inspection holes.  It is maybe 1 inch thick piece of thin aluminum.  It looks like the wing lacing above.  On the RH wing, the aluminum is intact.  On the LH wing, the aluminum is cut.  It looks maybe as if to clear some rigging?  Or maybe due to wing tank?  If this makes any sense to anyone, please do let me know.

 

3. The rigging appears somewhat slack.  I flew the plane (but have 0 other hrs in a Champ, and only 4hrs in a J3) and it flew fine to my untrained eye.  When looking through the inspection covers, the rigging overhead seemed to touch each other, and one of the wings had what looked like electrical tape to prevent chaffing.

 

4. The RH oleo strut sits two fingers high, the LH strut three or four fingers high.

 

5. Lowest compression 61.  It has been sitting for three months so I believe these will come back up with use.

 

Other than the above, I like the plane.  It is priced at $22k.  It's going through annual now and will have the mags freshly redone, they are at 500hrs.  With no other 7AC experience, I don't have anything to base this on.  Should I walk away?  Run away?  Go for it and have fun?  It has very complete logs, including the first test flight back in February of '46.  Any advice appreciated -- thank you!

 

 

 

 

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[David Rude]

I made a mistake below,  I should not have expected to see the drag & anti-drag wires from that view, sorry.

 

Attached are some pictures of an unattached 13 gallon RH tank and picture 6990 shows the end of a LH wing with a 13 gallon tank installed.

 

Sorry for the false lead on the wires.

[Aeronca Flyer]

I had a Champ with a 10 gal wing tank, N85564. I don't remember what the paperwork looked like, but the CD could be ordered.

Sounds like a broken oleo spring. Not that big of a deal, if you're handy you can fix it yourself.

Richard in Creswell, welcome

[Atlas Wegman]

Wow, thank you all for such quick replies -- there is certainly a wealth of information on here!  I hope I am replying to you all right...

In regards to the tank.  Is it is possible that it is a 13 gal tank with 9 usable?  I am trying to work out where the previous owner got the "9" concept -- apart from using it!  Documentation is all very complete but simply says "fuel tank: factory"

Here is another picture:

I am inexperienced but doing the best to take in all I can.  I am not sure what you mean by drag and anti-drag wires, I am sorry!

After reviewing the pictures from the rebuild, and racking my brain for what I thought I saw, I am toying around with the idea that these small aluminum spars are what were cut on the LH wing (w/ wing tank).  My only guess is to make affordance for the rigging.  Is this possible?  A quick look at the aeronca 7ac service drawing online does not show this sort of bracing, at least as far as I could tell.

Again, sorry for babbling through this.  I know I am not making it easy.  Thank you for all the information and guidance thus far!

[Atlas Wegman]

Roger -- thank you for the warm welcome!  I appreciate your input on price, I think it's in a sweet spot for me if all else checks out.

[Atlas Wegman]

I will take a look - thank you! 

[Atlas Wegman]

Thanks Richard!  It's possible this is 10.. or 9... or 8... or 13!!

['Gary Frick' via aeronca]

Unfortunately, or fortunately for you, I have no advice, just a comment. I think the 3rd picture sums it up. If the previous owner went to the trouble to keep records like those pictured, I’m sure it’s been well cared for. It looks absolutely beautiful. Great bunch of guys in the Aeronca family, the most well known, Bill Pancake. There is absolutely nothing he doesn’t know about Aeroncas. Welcome aboard. Gary NC9373E, NC9659E

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 9, 2018, at 9:47 AM, Atlas Wegman <agw...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello all!  

First time posting here, I hope this is all right.  I have been looking at a 1946 7AC near me.  The basics: 1586 Airframe Total Time. Continental A-65-8F with Millennium cylinders. Overhauled in 2002 by Pine Mountain. TTE: 2049. SMOH: 545. Sensenich Prop, Slick mags, and a Reiff preheater.  So far so good!  The plane has a wag-aero toe brake STC.  I own and fly a 172 so have club's for feet ;) I will be keeping the 172, and like having toe brakes in both planes.

I had my mechanic come and do a pre-buy of the plane.  Most things are good, some things are a little ehh.  I come to the experts in search of clarity!

1. The plane has a 9 gallon wing tank, only in the left wing.  Have you all ever heard of something like this?  The owner states it's from the factory.  All my research has pulled up no information.  It is placarded 5.5 on the wing, but is apparently 9.  Any information on this would be appreciated... pictures from the tank during the 2002 rebuild are shown below.

<IMG_0945.jpeg><IMG_0944.jpeg>

2. Both wings have what appear to be thin aluminum angle cross bracing.  I wish I had a picture, but for some reason do not.  You could see it through the inspection holes.  It is maybe 1 inch thick piece of thin aluminum.  It looks like the wing lacing above.  On the RH wing, the aluminum is intact.  On the LH wing, the aluminum is cut.  It looks maybe as if to clear some rigging?  Or maybe due to wing tank?  If this makes any sense to anyone, please do let me know.

3. The rigging appears somewhat slack.  I flew the plane (but have 0 other hrs in a Champ, and only 4hrs in a J3) and it flew fine to my untrained eye.  When looking through the inspection covers, the rigging overhead seemed to touch each other, and one of the wings had what looked like electrical tape to prevent chaffing.

4. The RH oleo strut sits two fingers high, the LH strut three or four fingers high.

5. Lowest compression 61.  It has been sitting for three months so I believe these will come back up with use.

Other than the above, I like the plane.  It is priced at $22k.  It's going through annual now and will have the mags freshly redone, they are at 500hrs.  With no other 7AC experience, I don't have anything to base this on.  Should I walk away?  Run away?  Go for it and have fun?  It has very complete logs, including the first test flight back in February of '46.  Any advice appreciated -- thank you!

<IMG_0609.jpeg> <IMG_0601.jpeg><IMG_0897.png><IMG_0935.png>

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<IMG_0945.jpeg>

<IMG_0944.jpeg>

<IMG_0609.jpeg>

<IMG_0601.jpeg>

<IMG_0897.png>

<IMG_0935.png>

[Atlas Wegman]

Thank you Gary!! I appreciate your comment.  Yes, that is what keeps bringing my back.  The plane is very well documented, which sadly makes these few discrepancies all the more apparent.  I appreciate the information you all have provided me thus far!

[Atlas Wegman]

I wanted to provide you all with a close up of what I THINK may have been cut in the LH wing.  A look at the 7AC wing drawing does not show this sort of aluminum bracing. I am assuming it is not factory. My best guess is it was cut to make an allowance for the rigging on the LH side, though if this is the case I am not sure why it wouldn't have been cut on the RH side. I wish I knew more....

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[David Rude]

 

Better pictures, I see the rear fuel outlet now but it is plugged.

 

I see the drag & anti-drag wires going thru the tank in the "full size render" pic. They should be encased in rubber hose and I do not see it.

 

Now I see those aluminum strips that are holding up the aileron control cables. When the wing is mounted they will be above the cables.

 

They are an alteration, no clue why, but have someone reinspect the wings to determine is the cables are rubbing into anything in the wing.

 

Get a person that knows Champs to look at this a/c.

 

Dave R

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Atlas Wegman" [agw...@gmail.com]
Date: 11/09/2018 11:11 AM
To: "fearless Aeronca Aviators" <f-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [f-AA] This close to buying a 7AC... some questions post pre-buy
 

Wow, thank you all for such quick replies -- there is certainly a wealth of information on here!  I hope I am replying to you all right...

 

In regards to the tank.  Is it is possible that it is a 13 gal tank with 9 usable?  I am trying to work out where the previous owner got the "9" concept -- apart from using it!  Documentation is all very complete but simply says "fuel tank: factory"

 

Here is another picture:

 

 

 

I am inexperienced but doing the best to take in all I can.  I am not sure what you mean by drag and anti-drag wires, I am sorry!

 

 

 

After reviewing the pictures from the rebuild, and racking my brain for what I thought I saw, I am toying around with the idea that these small aluminum spars are what were cut on the LH wing (w/ wing tank).  My only guess is to make affordance for the rigging.  Is this possible?  A quick look at the aeronca 7ac service drawing online does not show this sort of bracing, at least as far as I could tell.

 

Again, sorry for babbling through this.  I know I am not making it easy.  Thankyou for all the information and guidance thus far!

On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 10:53:56 AM UTC-5, David Rude wrote:

I made a mistake below,  I should not have expected to see the drag & anti-drag wires from that view, sorry.

 

Attached are some pictures of an unattached 13 gallon RH tank and picture 6990 shows the end of a LH wing with a 13 gallon tank installed.

 

Sorry for the false lead on the wires.

 

Dave Rude

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: "David Rude" [dlr...@excite.com]
Date: 11/09/2018 10:42 AM
To: "fearless Aeronca Aviators" <f-...@googlegroups.com>, aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] This close to buying a 7AC... some questions post pre-buy

The tank shown in picture IMG_0945 looks like  a 13 gallon Aeronca tank.

 

However I do not see a drag wire going thru it in the front. Nor do I see an anti-drag going thru it in the back.

 

Also I do not see a fuel fitting in the back of the tank (I see it in the front) should see both.

 

I should see all these thinks in a wing ready to cover. Do you see any on them or is it just me?

 

Also are these "oddities" documented in the aircraft records?

 

I would get a person that is familiar with Aeronca Champs to look at it.

 

Dave Rude

 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Atlas Wegman" [agw...@gmail.com]
Date: 11/09/2018 09:47 AM
To: "fearless Aeronca Aviators" <f-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [f-AA] This close to buying a 7AC... some questions post pre-buy

Hello all!  

 

First time posting here, I hope this is all right.  I have been looking at a 1946 7AC near me.  The basics: 1586 Airframe Total Time. Continental A-65-8F with Millennium cylinders. Overhauled in 2002 by Pine Mountain. TTE: 2049. SMOH: 545. Sensenich Prop, Slick mags, and a Reiff preheater.  So far so good!  The plane has a wag-aero toe brake STC.  I own and fly a 172 so have club's for feet ;) I will be keeping the 172, and like having toe brakes in both planes.

 

I had my mechanic come and do a pre-buy of the plane.  Most things are good, some things are a little ehh.  I come to the experts in search of clarity!

 

1.The plane has a 9 gallon wing tank, only in the left wing.  Have you all ever heard of something like this?  The owner states it's from the factory.  All my research has pulled up no information.  It is placarded 5.5 on the wing, but is apparently 9.  Any information on this would be appreciated... pictures from the tank during the 2002 rebuild are shown below.

 

 

2. Both wings have what appear to be thin aluminum angle cross bracing.  I wish I had a picture, but for some reason do not.  You could see it through the inspection holes.  It is maybe 1 inch thick piece of thin aluminum.  It looks like the wing lacing above.  On the RH wing, the aluminum is intact.  On the LH wing, the aluminum is cut.  It looks maybe as if to clear some rigging?  Or maybe due to wing tank?  If this makes any sense to anyone, please do let me know.

 

3. The rigging appears somewhat slack.  I flew the plane (but have 0 other hrs in a Champ, and only 4hrs in a J3) and it flew fine to my untrained eye.  When looking through the inspection covers, the rigging overhead seemed to touch each other, and one of the wings had what looked like electrical tape to prevent chaffing.

 

4. The RH oleo strut sits two fingers high, the LH strut three or four fingers high.

 

5. Lowest compression 61.  It has been sitting for three months so I believe these will come back up with use.

 

Other than the above, I like the plane.  It is priced at $22k.  It's going through annual now and will have the mags freshly redone, they are at 500hrs.  With no other 7AC experience, I don't have anything to base this on.  Should I walk away?  Run away?  Go for it and have fun?  It has very complete logs, including the first test flight back in February of '46.  Any advice appreciated -- thank you!

 

 

 

 

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[David Rude]

What do you mean by "cut" I do not follow?

 

Dave R

 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Atlas Wegman" [agw...@gmail.com]
Date: 11/09/2018 11:31 AM
To: "fearless Aeronca Aviators" <f-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [f-AA] This close to buying a 7AC... some questions post pre-buy

I wanted to provide you all with a close up of what I THINK may have been cut in the LH wing.  A look at the 7AC wing drawing does not show this sort of aluminum bracing. I am assuming it is not factory. My best guess is it was cut to make an allowance for the rigging on the LH side, though if this is the case I am not sure why it wouldn't have been cut on the RH side. I wish I knew more....

 

 

On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 9:47:25 AM UTC-5, Atlas Wegman wrote:

Hello all!  

 

First time posting here, I hope this is all right.  I have been looking at a 1946 7AC near me.  The basics: 1586 Airframe Total Time. Continental A-65-8F with Millennium cylinders. Overhauled in 2002 by Pine Mountain. TTE: 2049. SMOH: 545. Sensenich Prop, Slick mags, and a Reiff preheater.  So far so good!  The plane has a wag-aero toe brake STC.  I own and fly a 172 so have club's for feet ;) I will be keeping the 172, and like having toe brakes in both planes.

 

I had my mechanic come and do a pre-buy of the plane.  Most things are good, some things are a little ehh.  I come to the experts in search of clarity!

 

1. The plane has a 9 gallon wing tank, only in the left wing.  Have you all ever heard of something like this?  The owner states it's from the factory.  All my research has pulled up no information.  It is placarded 5.5 on the wing, but is apparently 9.  Any information on this would be appreciated... pictures from the tank during the 2002 rebuild are shown below.

 

 

 

2. Both wings have what appear to be thin aluminum angle cross bracing.  I wish I had a picture, but for some reason do not.  You could see it through the inspection holes.  It is maybe 1 inch thick piece of thin aluminum.  It looks like the wing lacing above.  On the RH wing, the aluminum is intact.  On the LH wing, the aluminum is cut.  It looks maybe as if to clear some rigging?  Or maybe due to wing tank?  If this makes any sense to anyone, please do let me know.

 

3. The rigging appears somewhat slack.  I flew the plane (but have 0 other hrs in a Champ, and only 4hrs in a J3) and it flew fine to my untrained eye.  When looking through the inspection covers, the rigging overhead seemed to touch each other, and one of the wings had what looked like electrical tape to prevent chaffing.

 

4. The RH oleo strut sits two fingers high, the LH strut three or four fingers high.

 

5. Lowest compression 61.  It has been sitting for three months so I believe these will come back up with use.

 

Other than the above, I like the plane.  It is priced at $22k.  It's going through annual now and will have the mags freshly redone, they are at 500hrs.  With no other 7AC experience, I don't have anything to base this on.  Should I walk away?  Run away?  Go for it and have fun?  It has very complete logs, including the first test flight back in February of '46.  Any advice appreciated -- thank you!

 

 

 

 

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[Atlas Wegman]

Dave -- thank you for your help here, I greatly appreciate it!  

An alteration, okay.  I too do not know why.  With the inspection panels off as we were going through the wing, you could see this aluminum section, or at least I think it was this.  On the RH wing, the wing with no tank, the sections appeared in tact.  On the LH wing, the sections were CUT.  They looked like they were sliced in half to make an affordance for the rigging.  Maybe a 2-3 inch section removed from each.  I've drawn from memory what I believe it looked like.

Here are some more pictures from the rebuild:

On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 11:36:20 AM UTC-5, David Rude wrote:

What do you mean by "cut" I do not follow?

 

Dave R

 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Atlas Wegman" [agw...@gmail.com]
Date: 11/09/2018 11:31 AM
To: "fearless Aeronca Aviators" <f-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [f-AA] This close to buying a 7AC... some questions post pre-buy

I wanted to provide you all with a close up of what I THINK may have been cut in the LH wing.  A look at the 7AC wing drawing does not show this sort of aluminum bracing. I am assuming it is not factory. My best guess is it was cut to make an allowance for the rigging on the LH side, though if this is the case I am not sure why it wouldn't have been cut on the RH side. I wish I knew more....

 

 

On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 9:47:25 AM UTC-5, Atlas Wegman wrote:

Hello all!  

 

First time posting here, I hope this is all right.  I have been looking at a 1946 7AC near me.  The basics: 1586 Airframe Total Time. Continental A-65-8F with Millennium cylinders. Overhauled in 2002 by Pine Mountain. TTE: 2049. SMOH: 545. Sensenich Prop, Slick mags, and a Reiff preheater.  So far so good!  The plane has a wag-aero toe brake STC.  I own and fly a 172 so have club's for feet ;) I will be keeping the 172, and like having toe brakes in both planes.

 

I had my mechanic come and do a pre-buy of the plane.  Most things are good, some things are a little ehh.  I come to the experts in search of clarity!

 

1. The plane has a 9 gallon wing tank, only in the left wing.  Have you all ever heard of something like this?  The owner states it's from the factory.  All my research has pulled up no information.  It is placarded 5.5 on the wing, but is apparently 9.  Any information on this would be appreciated... pictures from the tank during the 2002 rebuild are shown below.

 

 

 

2. Both wings have what appear to be thin aluminum angle cross bracing.  I wish I had a picture, but for some reason do not.  You could see it through the inspection holes.  It is maybe 1 inch thick piece of thin aluminum.  It looks like the wing lacing above.  On the RH wing, the aluminum is intact.  On the LH wing, the aluminum is cut.  It looks maybe as if to clear some rigging?  Or maybe due to wing tank?  If this makes any sense to anyone, please do let me know.

 

3. The rigging appears somewhat slack.  I flew the plane (but have 0 other hrs in a Champ, and only 4hrs in a J3) and it flew fine to my untrained eye.  When looking through the inspection covers, the rigging overhead seemed to touch each other, and one of the wings had what looked like electrical tape to prevent chaffing.

 

4. The RH oleo strut sits two fingers high, the LH strut three or four fingers high.

 

5. Lowest compression 61.  It has been sitting for three months so I believe these will come back up with use.

 

Other than the above, I like the plane.  It is priced at $22k.  It's going through annual now and will have the mags freshly redone, they are at 500hrs.  With no other 7AC experience, I don't have anything to base this on.  Should I walk away?  Run away?  Go for it and have fun?  It has very complete logs, including the first test flight back in February of '46.  Any advice appreciated -- thank you!

 

 

 

 

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[Roger Anderson]

In the total scheme of things these days, a complete airframe rebuild as recent as 2002 is pretty recent.  Are those new spars or just old ones nicely refinished?  I'm with Gary.   You normally don't document something so completely unless you are proud of what you did.  Are those tires 7.00 or bigger even?   I do have one thought....take all my thoughts with a huge grain of salt though...I'm from the olden days when cylinders frequently needed a top overhaul at about 500 hrs.  If one is in the low 60s, no big deal.  But, it's possible a top might be in their future sometime. (Or just lots of MMO....right Joe....Rafael 😍)?      roger

Dave -- thank you for your help here, I greatly appreciate it!  

An alteration, okay.  I too do not know why.  With the inspection panels off as we were going through the wing, you could see this aluminum section, or at least I think it was this.  On the RH wing, the wing with no tank, the sections appeared in tact.  On the LH wing, the sections were CUT.  They looked like they were sliced in half to make an affordance for the rigging.  Maybe a 2-3 inch section removed from each.  I've drawn from memory what I believe it looked like.

Here are some more pictures from the rebuild:

On November 9, 2018 at 10:44 AM Atlas Wegman <agw...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Atlas Wegman]

Thank Roger!  I agree, it is a well documented and clearly well loved plane.  The spars are new in 2002.

The pros keep kicking out the cons... but then the cons rear their ugly heads... my lack of experience is making it hard for me to differentiate "major" from "minor" problems!  At 22k I am not looking for an absolute creampuff, but a safe and solid plane I can polish, love, fly, and tweak as the seasons go on.

[Atlas Wegman]

And yes the tires are 8's or 8.5's, the largest factory type certificate allows!

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to aeronca+unsubscribe@westmont.edu.

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[Rich Dugger]

That sounds reasonable.

Of course I'm cheap so I'd make a lower offer and meet him half way.

We paid 31k for our last one but it was a beauty.

T h ose pics looks nice.

And it seems the paper work is well organized.

Rich

[Mark Peterson]

I wonder if someone thought that the aileron float was too much and decided to restrain the flexing of the

aileron mounts with this?  Or didn't know they were supposed to flex.

Sometimes wings aren't repaired/restored together as a pair.

---

From: aer...@westmont.edu <aer...@westmont.edu> on behalf of Rich Dugger <richd...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 11:16 AM
To: aer...@westmont.edu

Subject: Re: [f-AA] This close to buying a 7AC... some questions post pre-buy

[Atlas Wegman]

Thank you both!  The plane flew nice to my untrained arm.  Again, I have nothing to base it on so take that with a grain of salt... I only have 4hrs tw time!  Though I did pull off my best 3 pointer to date....

There are a lot of things I like about this one, and some things I don’t.  I outlined most of them in the thread so won’t bore you too much but I am just looking for something to enjoy a calm evening with, explore some grass strips around the Hudson Valley, and pop over to Stuart and Johns when the folks on the forum say “who’s goin?”…

[Richard Murray]

Atlas-

It sounds like you have found what you described you were looking for. Now its time to put the buyer's remorse aside and pull the trigger. 

The cons seem minor if you IA is comfortable with them.

I presume the individual who recovered the wings is not available? Certainly a conversation with that person would answer the question for all of us why the diagonal bracing on the trailing edge? (I thought you were talking about the inner-rib strip the some people run full span mid cord to prevent fabric sagging between the ribs)

Richard in OH glad to have you join us in spirit and hopefully with a Champ and I trimmed my reply

On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 3:28 PM Atlas Wegman <agw...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you both!  The plane flew nice to my untrained arm.  Again, I have nothing to base it on so take that with a grain of salt... I only have 4hrs tw time!  Though I did pull off my best 3 pointer to date....

There are a lot of things I like about this one, and some things I don’t.  I outlined most of them in the thread so won’t bore you too much but I am just looking for something to enjoy a calm evening with, explore some grass strips around the Hudson Valley, and pop over to Stuart and Johns when the folks on the forum say “who’s goin?”…

[Atlas Wegman]

Richard -- I think you are right.  This is me hemming and hawing, I need to buck up!  Correct, I don't think the man who did the restoration in '02 is around.  I believe I am talking about the inner rib strip.. but maybe I am not.  

It sounds these issues I am describing are not sending you all running for the high hills.  A couple questions here and there, but nothing we are all say woah woah woah to.  I want to make sure the rigging isn't chafing on anything, then I will be happy.

I appreciate the warm welcome I have received here.  What a great group.

[Atlas Wegman]

Pulled the trigger -- looking forward to flying with you all some time in the near future!  Thanks for all the quick replys and input, I really appreciate it!

On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 9:47:25 AM UTC-5, Atlas Wegman wrote:

Hello all!  

First time posting here, I hope this is all right.  I have been looking at a 1946 7AC near me.  The basics: 1586 Airframe Total Time. Continental A-65-8F with Millennium cylinders. Overhauled in 2002 by Pine Mountain. TTE: 2049. SMOH: 545. Sensenich Prop, Slick mags, and a Reiff preheater.  So far so good!  The plane has a wag-aero toe brake STC.  I own and fly a 172 so have club's for feet ;) I will be keeping the 172, and like having toe brakes in both planes.

I had my mechanic come and do a pre-buy of the plane.  Most things are good, some things are a little ehh.  I come to the experts in search of clarity!

1. The plane has a 9 gallon wing tank, only in the left wing.  Have you all ever heard of something like this?  The owner states it's from the factory.  All my research has pulled up no information.  It is placarded 5.5 on the wing, but is apparently 9.  Any information on this would be appreciated... pictures from the tank during the 2002 rebuild are shown below.

2. Both wings have what appear to be thin aluminum angle cross bracing.  I wish I had a picture, but for some reason do not.  You could see it through the inspection holes.  It is maybe 1 inch thick piece of thin aluminum.  It looks like the wing lacing above.  On the RH wing, the aluminum is intact.  On the LH wing, the aluminum is cut.  It looks maybe as if to clear some rigging?  Or maybe due to wing tank?  If this makes any sense to anyone, please do let me know.

3. The rigging appears somewhat slack.  I flew the plane (but have 0 other hrs in a Champ, and only 4hrs in a J3) and it flew fine to my untrained eye.  When looking through the inspection covers, the rigging overhead seemed to touch each other, and one of the wings had what looked like electrical tape to prevent chaffing.

4. The RH oleo strut sits two fingers high, the LH strut three or four fingers high.

5. Lowest compression 61.  It has been sitting for three months so I believe these will come back up with use.

Other than the above, I like the plane.  It is priced at $22k.  It's going through annual now and will have the mags freshly redone, they are at 500hrs.  With no other 7AC experience, I don't have anything to base this on.  Should I walk away?  Run away?  Go for it and have fun?  It has very complete logs, including the first test flight back in February of '46.  Any advice appreciated -- thank you!

 

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[Matt Slezak]

With that much documentation and photos I'm sure the bird is fine.  Have you learned how to hand prop yet???  It's pretty easy with Slicks.  Ask the seller if it's a single or dual impulse as the mag switch position is different - usually a single is left mag and a dual well, both mags on before a flip.  

Be sure to have the mags OFF if you hand prime by turning the prop.  And beware that a loose ground can make a mag HOT even when the switch is off.

Have an instructor show you the proper process if you haven't done it before.  It's super easy but a lesson helps.  Whenever an "old school" flyer helped me they stood in front of the prop.  That scares the hell out of me so I'd always sit behind a tire.  Get some portable wheel chocks to keep it in place if you don't have any.  They are small light and fit in the baggage compartment with little space.  

Enjoy your new toy!

Matt/11AC

On Fri, Nov 9, 2018, 5:23 PM Atlas Wegman <agw...@gmail.com wrote:

Pulled the trigger -- looking forward to flying with you all some time in the near future!  Thanks for all the quick replys and input, I really appreciate it!

On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 9:47:25 AM UTC-5, Atlas Wegman wrote:

Hello all!  

First time posting here, I hope this is all right.  I have been looking at a 1946 7AC near me.  The basics: 1586 Airframe Total Time. Continental A-65-8F with Millennium cylinders. Overhauled in 2002 by Pine Mountain. TTE: 2049. SMOH: 545. Sensenich Prop, Slick mags, and a Reiff preheater.  So far so good!  The plane has a wag-aero toe brake STC.  I own and fly a 172 so have club's for feet ;) I will be keeping the 172, and like having toe brakes in both planes.

I had my mechanic come and do a pre-buy of the plane.  Most things are good, some things are a little ehh.  I come to the experts in search of clarity!

1. The plane has a 9 gallon wing tank, only in the left wing.  Have you all ever heard of something like this?  The owner states it's from the factory.  All my research has pulled up no information.  It is placarded 5.5 on the wing, but is apparently 9.  Any information on this would be appreciated... pictures from the tank during the 2002 rebuild are shown below.

2. Both wings have what appear to be thin aluminum angle cross bracing.  I wish I had a picture, but for some reason do not.  You could see it through the inspection holes.  It is maybe 1 inch thick piece of thin aluminum.  It looks like the wing lacing above.  On the RH wing, the aluminum is intact.  On the LH wing, the aluminum is cut.  It looks maybe as if to clear some rigging?  Or maybe due to wing tank?  If this makes any sense to anyone, please do let me know.

3. The rigging appears somewhat slack.  I flew the plane (but have 0 other hrs in a Champ, and only 4hrs in a J3) and it flew fine to my untrained eye.  When looking through the inspection covers, the rigging overhead seemed to touch each other, and one of the wings had what looked like electrical tape to prevent chaffing.

4. The RH oleo strut sits two fingers high, the LH strut three or four fingers high.

5. Lowest compression 61.  It has been sitting for three months so I believe these will come back up with use.

Other than the above, I like the plane.  It is priced at $22k.  It's going through annual now and will have the mags freshly redone, they are at 500hrs.  With no other 7AC experience, I don't have anything to base this on.  Should I walk away?  Run away?  Go for it and have fun?  It has very complete logs, including the first test flight back in February of '46.  Any advice appreciated -- thank you!

 

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[Roger Anderson]

Atlas..excellent!  I really don't see how you can go wrong at $22K.  Actually, I'm surprised it hasn't been taken already.  Unless you find a major issue requiring major surgery, if you decide you don't like it, you can unload it easily at that price.  I consider a good and airworthy 7AC about a $25K machine anytime.  But...I'm full of opinions and few facts.  Unlike Matt, I'm a prop from in front of the machine kinda guy.  But, that was how I was taught years ago.  For an A65, I just don't ever use a primer, if there is one.  Six to seven blades, fuel on and switch off, will do the job for all I've had every time.  Look toward the Aeronca convention, next is June 2020, Middletown, OH.   Oh....you hve the best of both worlds with an Aeronca and C172. i'm fan of the C172, considering it the next best all purpose all around airplane.  congratulations.  roger

[Joe Doherty]

Congrats, Atlas!  Welcome to the club.

I will add on to what Matt said.  When I got my Champ about a year and a half ago, I was sure I wanted to add a starter.  I had the idea in my head that hand propping was this horrible and dangerous thing.  I also thought that the level of inconvenience would be unbelievable.  It isn't if you do it right.  

I am overly cautious doing it, and will chock the wheels, throw the parking brake on, and tie down the tail if something is nearby (my car, tie-down point, etc.).  I rigged something up with my chocks and rope that allows me to remove them from the wheels after I am seated in the cockpit.  This allows me to get the engine started, untie the tail, get into the cockpit while the parking brake is on and wheels are chocked, remove the chocks, and finally, when I am ready to taxi, release the parking brake.  Others on here will say this is pretty overkill, but it's what I like to go with.  I like the layers of redundancy.

You own an airplane.  Doesn't that sound amazing?

Joe

(N82959, 1946 7AC in Rhode Island)

--

Joseph Doherty Jr.
University of Michigan, B.S.E.
joseph.j...@gmail.com
732-557-1701

[Rob Murphy]

Atlas... Enjoy! 

As Joe wrote, obtain really good instruction on propping and make it a point to tie the tail!

All the best,

Rob

N84334  Connecticut

[Duane Fey]

Congratulations, Atlas. 

Duane

‘46 Chief, N85981

<IMG_0605.jpeg>

<IMG_0600.jpeg>

<IMG_0607.jpeg>

['super7ac@aol.com' via aeronca]

Sent from my LG Mobile

------ Original message------

From: Roger Anderson<11...@comcast.net>

Date: Fri, Nov 9, 2018 3:49 PM

To: aer...@westmont.edu;

Cc:

Subject:Re: [f-AA] This close to buying a 7AC... some questions post pre-buy

Atlas..excellent!  I really don't see how you can go wrong at $22K.  Actually, I'm surprised it hasn't been taken already.  Unless you find a major issue requiring major surgery, if you decide you don't like it, you can unload it easily at that price.  I consider a good and airworthy 7AC about a $25K machine anytime.  But...I'm full of opinions and few facts.  Unlike Matt, I'm a prop from in front of the machine kinda guy.  But, that was how I was taught years ago.  For an A65, I just don't ever use a primer, if there is one.  Six to seven blades, fuel on and switch off, will do the job for all I've had every time.  Look toward the Aeronca convention, next is June 2020, Middletown, OH.   Oh....you hve the best of both worlds with an Aeronca and C172. i'm fan of the C172, considering it the next best all purpose all around airplane.  congratulations.  roger

On November 9, 2018 at 5:35 PM Matt Slezak > wrote:

With that much documentation and photos I'm sure the bird is fine.  Have you learned how to hand prop yet???  It's pretty easy with Slicks.  Ask the seller if it's a single or dual impulse as the mag switch position is different - usually a single is left mag and a dual well, both mags on before a flip.  

Be sure to have the mags OFF if you hand prime by turning the prop.  And beware that a loose ground can make a mag HOT even when the switch is off.

Have an instructor show you the proper process if you haven't done it before.  It's super easy but a lesson helps.  Whenever an "old school" flyer helped me they stood in front of the prop.  That scares the hell out of me so I'd always sit behind a tire.  Get some portable wheel chocks to keep it in place if you don't have any.  They are small light and fit in the baggage compartment with little space.  

Enjoy your new toy!

Matt/11AC

On Fri, Nov 9, 2018, 5:23 PM Atlas Wegman < agw...@gmail.com wrote:

Pulled the trigger -- looking forward to flying with you all some time in the near future!  Thanks for all the quick replys and input, I really appreciate it!

On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 9:47:25 AM UTC-5, Atlas Wegman wrote:

Hello all!  

First time posting here, I hope this is all right.  I have been looking at a 1946 7AC near me.  The basics: 1586 Airframe Total Time. Continental A-65-8F with Millennium cylinders. Overhauled in 2002 by Pine Mountain. TTE: 2049. SMOH: 545. Sensenich Prop, Slick mags, and a Reiff preheater.  So far so good!  The plane has a wag-aero toe brake STC.  I own and fly a 172 so have club's for feet ;) I will be keeping the 172, and like having toe brakes in both planes.

I had my mechanic come and do a pre-buy of the plane.  Most things are good, some things are a little ehh.  I come to the experts in search of clarity!

1. The plane has a 9 gallon wing tank, only in the left wing.  Have you all ever heard of something like this?  The owner states it's from the factory.  All my research has pulled up no information.  It is placarded 5.5 on the wing, but is apparently 9.  Any information on this would be appreciated... pictures from the tank during the 2002 rebuild are shown below.

2. Both wings have what appear to be thin aluminum angle cross bracing.  I wish I had a picture, but for some reason do not.  You could see it through the inspection holes.  It is maybe 1 inch thick piece of thin aluminum.  It looks like the wing lacing above.  On the RH wing, the aluminum is intact.  On the LH wing, the aluminum is cut.  It looks maybe as if to clear some rigging?  Or maybe due to wing tank?  If this makes any sense to anyone, please do let me know.

3. The rigging appears somewhat slack.  I flew the plane (but have 0 other hrs in a Champ, and only 4hrs in a J3) and it flew fine to my untrained eye.  When looking through the inspection covers, the rigging overhead seemed to touch each other, and one of the wings had what looked like electrical tape to prevent chaffing.

4. The RH oleo strut sits two fingers high, the LH strut three or four fingers high.

5. Lowest compression 61.  It has been sitting for three months so I believe these will come back up with use.

Other than the above, I like the plane.  It is priced at $22k.  It's going through annual now and will have the mags freshly redone, they are at 500hrs.  With no other 7AC experience, I don't have anything to base this on.  Should I walk away?  Run away?  Go for it and have fun?  It has very complete logs, including the first test flight back in February of '46.  Any advice appreciated -- thank you!

 

 

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[Richard Murray]

Atlas-

We are all very happy with you if you couldn't tell

Richard in OH looking forward to seeing you in 2020 at Hook Field and the 20th biennial convention of the National Aeronca Association

--

Each sunrise is an opportunity to learn more than you knew the day before.

[danvdmeer]

Congrats, Atlas!  Welcome to the club.

I will add on to what Matt said.  When I got my Champ about a year and a half ago, I was sure I wanted to add a starter.  I had the idea in my head that hand propping was this horrible and dangerous thing.  I also thought that the level of inconvenience would be unbelievable.  It isn't if you do it right.  

I am overly cautious doing it, and will chock the wheels, throw the parking brake on, and tie down the tail if something is nearby (my car, tie-down point, etc.).  I rigged something up with my chocks and rope that allows me to remove them from the wheels after I am seated in the cockpit.  This allows me to get the engine started, untie the tail, get into the cockpit while the parking brake is on and wheels are chocked, remove the chocks, and finally, when I am ready to taxi, release the parking brake.  Others on here will say this is pretty overkill, but it's what I like to go with.  I like the layers of redundancy.

You own an airplane.  Doesn't that sound amazing?

Joe

(N82959, 1946 7AC in Rhode Island)

On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 6:35 PM Matt Slezak <matthew...@gmail.com> wrote:

With that much documentation and photos I'm sure the bird is fine.  Have you learned how to hand prop yet???  It's pretty easy with Slicks.  Ask the seller if it's a single or dual impulse as the mag switch position is different - usually a single is left mag and a dual well, both mags on before a flip.  

Be sure to have the mags OFF if you hand prime by turning the prop.  And beware that a loose ground can make a mag HOT even when the switch is off.

Have an instructor show you the proper process if you haven't done it before.  It's super easy but a lesson helps.  Whenever an "old school" flyer helped me they stood in front of the prop.  That scares the hell out of me so I'd always sit behind a tire.  Get some portable wheel chocks to keep it in place if you don't have any.  They are small light and fit in the baggage compartment with little space.  

Enjoy your new toy!

Matt/11AC

On Fri, Nov 9, 2018, 5:23 PM Atlas Wegman <agw...@gmail.com wrote:

Pulled the trigger -- looking forward to flying with you all some time in the near future!  Thanks for all the quick replys and input, I really appreciate it!

<IMG_0607.jpeg>

[Jim Chuk]

Or you could find a Mcdowell safety starter and install it so you can start from the seat.  They are pretty rare, but I know where one is.  It's for a flanged crankshaft.  It actually was on a Champ last time it was used.  JImChuk

[Jeff Kimball]

Atlas:

I'll toss in my 2 cents worth.

Congratulations on your purchase!

I've been hand propping my Champ for the past 4 years or so.  I don't want a starter both due to weight and the desire to "fly it like it was 1947".  Works great.

I do normally tie the tail when I don't have a qualified person to assist.  But it's not all the difficult.  I found a relatively light but strong rope from a sail boat supply shop.  I tie one end to the front seat leg, run the rope out the door and back through the tail wheel springs around something (Fence post, bollard next to the fuel pump, tie down, hangar structure etc. ) then run the rope back through the tail wheel assembly and tie it back to the seat post.  Then I push the airplane forward just a bit to tension the rope and make sure it's secure, set the parking brake, and proceed with confidence into my starting routine.  Once started (usually on the first flip) I can get into the seat, untie one end of the rope, pull the entire rope into the airplane, untie the other end of the rope and toss it into the baggage compartment. I have yet to find an airport where I couldn't find something to loop the rope around.  I have a small Velcro loop that I use to tie the rope into a bundle so it doesn't get all tangled.

The big advantage is you don't have to untie the tail until you are relaxed safely in the seat.

I did find an old glider tow hook (Schweizer) and a 337 to install it to constrain the tail, but I never did install it.  It requires leaving behind a small section of rope which is OK at home but not so good when traveling as you have to carry "disposable" rope loops.  Just looping a rope from the seat though the tail wheel was easier/simpler and didn't require any approval.

Good luck and happy flying!

Jeff L16A and a K.

[bk...@elp.rr.com]

Sorry I didn't see you post earlier. I have a 7DC for sale. C-85, starter com radio fresh annual. Asking $25K if anyone is interested I have many pictures. All log books from 1946 until now.

Bruce

>>> or at least I think it was this. On the RH wing, the wing with no tank,
>>> the sections appeared in tact. On the LH wing, the sections were CUT.

>>> They looked like they were sliced in half to make an affordance for the
>>> rigging. Maybe a 2-3 inch section removed from each. I've drawn from
>>> memory what I believe it looked like.
>>>
>>> [image: FullSizeRender2.gif]
>>>
>>>
>>> Here are some more pictures from the rebuild:
>>>
>>> [image: IMG_0942.jpeg][image: IMG_0941.jpeg][image: IMG_0943.jpeg]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On November 9, 2018 at 10:44 AM Atlas Wegman <agw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>

Bruce King

Doing my part to KEEP EL PASO LOCO !

[Roger Anderson]

Hi Bruce. I do have a friend looking. If you have contact or info contact, I’ll let him know. roger

Sent from my iPhone

[Atlas Wegman]

Folks -- just wow, thank you all for such thoughtful replies.  I am still not quite sure how this forum works so I hope clicking "reply" here gets to you all.  Rather than hitting reply so many times, I thought I would just reference your messages here.

RE the hand propping, that is certainly something I am eager to find a safe and repeatable way to do.  I have been lucky enough to fly my wonderful 1968 Cessna 172 some 300hrs all across the US the last 12 months, and boy has that taught me a lot.  (thank you for the C172 compliments Roger, N584SF is mine, she is a great plane!)  On the way to Montana from NY, first stop I lost my starter.  Something with the shear pin.  Anyways, that was my intro to hand propping as I had to do it at each of the following 15 fuel stops... luckily I had another pilot on board as we were doing a flight of two.  I am eager to learn how to hand prop alone safely, and appreciate the tips you all have given thus far!!

Matt, Roger, Joe, Jim, Jeff -- thank you for the starting tips!  This bird does have a primer.  I will put your thoughts to use and find what she likes.  She was a "1 flipper" when demonstrated to me a few weeks back.

Roger, Richard -- thank you for the invite to the Aeronca convention!!! Now that is something I can't miss.  I notice some of you are closer to me than others.  Joe, I see you are in RI.  I did my initial training out of TF Green some number of years back.  I look forward to seeing you all in person and in flight soon!

Keep the tips coming, I really do appreciate them and feel (minorly) over my head knowing so little about these old planes.

[Harvey Brock]

Jeff,

   I would like to know a little more of the way you tie the tail. My way isn't as "relaxed" as yours sounds.

   I have a simple length of robe with a D-ring on one end and a hand grip on the other. It serves as a safety for starting and also as a tail tow ( that's why I installed the handle ). It stows easily but I have to be outside the unclip it from the tailwheel. Therefore, your set-up sounds better.

Harvey, who is thankful for a one flip startup.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab®4

-------- Original message --------
From: Jeff Kimball <jgkr...@comcast.net>
Date:11/09/2018 10:03 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: aer...@westmont.edu, Jim Chuk <avidfl...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [f-AA] This close to buying a 7AC... some questions post pre-buy

[Donato Martino]

Atlas, you are well on the way.  Conratulations and keep us posted.

 

Donato

 

Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 11:04 AM
From: "Atlas Wegman" <agw...@gmail.com>

To: "fearless Aeronca Aviators" <f-...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [f-AA] This close to buying a 7AC... some questions post pre-buy

Folks -- just wow, thank you all for such thoughtful replies.  I am still not quite sure how this forum works so I hope clicking "reply" here gets to you all.  Rather than hitting reply so many times, I thought I would just reference your messages here.

 

RE the hand propping, that is certainly something I am eager to find a safe and repeatable way to do.  I have been lucky enough to fly my wonderful 1968 Cessna 172 some 300hrs all across the US the last 12 months, and boy has that taught me a lot.  (thank you for the C172 compliments Roger, N584SF is mine, she is a great plane!)  On the way to Montana from NY, first stop I lost my starter.  Something with the shear pin.  Anyways, that was my intro to hand propping as I had to do it at each of the following 15 fuel stops... luckily I had another pilot on board as we were doing a flight of two.  I am eager to learn how to hand prop alone safely, and appreciate the tips you all have given thus far!!

 

Matt, Roger, Joe, Jim, Jeff -- thank you for the starting tips!  This bird does have a primer.  I will put your thoughts to use and find what she likes.  She was a "1 flipper" when demonstrated to me a few weeks back.

 

Roger, Richard -- thank you for the invite to the Aeronca convention!!! Now that is something I can't miss.  I notice some of you are closer to me than others.  Joe, I see you are in RI.  I did my initial training out of TF Green some number of years back.  I look forward to seeing you all in person and in flight soon!

 

Keep the tips coming, I really do appreciate them and feel (minorly) over my head knowing so little about these old planes.

 

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[Harvey Brock]

Atlas,

    I'm glad to see another Aeroncateer. I hope you like it as much as I like my Champ but I need to warn you to be cautious about Rafael's recommendations for uses of Marvel Mystery Oil. 

    When I bought my Champ, compression was at the bottom of the marginal range on one cylinder. I located another engine to rebuild for a replacement as I assumed it wouldn't be long before the compression dropped too low. 

   At first, the weak cylinder was obvious when priming. In less than 20 hours of operation, I could no longer tell which cylinder was weak. Current compression checks reveal all 4 cylinders are strong.

   The point is, fly it and don't baby the engine. I've learned non-use and trying to baby these older Continentals are not healthy practices. 

    One other odd thing I've learned. Mine holds 4 quarts of oil. If I fill it to the 4qt mark, it will soon go to 3 1/2 qts (in about 3 hours). However, at 3 1/2 qts it stays there for almost time for an oil change. 

    Mine also has an STC for mogas, so I give the fuel tank a bit of MMO upon Rafael's recommendation.

  I have found this group to be a great bunch and great at keeping things on the lighter side. 

Harvey, who is thankful for the fAA.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab®4

-------- Original message --------

From: Atlas Wegman <agw...@gmail.com>
Date:11/09/2018 5:23 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: fearless Aeronca Aviators <f-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [f-AA] This close to buying a 7AC... some questions post pre-buy

Pulled the trigger -- looking forward to flying with you all some time in the near future!  Thanks for all the quick replys and input, I really appreciate it!

On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 9:47:25 AM UTC-5, Atlas Wegman wrote:

Hello all!  

First time posting here, I hope this is all right.  I have been looking at a 1946 7AC near me.  The basics: 1586 Airframe Total Time. Continental A-65-8F with Millennium cylinders. Overhauled in 2002 by Pine Mountain. TTE: 2049. SMOH: 545. Sensenich Prop, Slick mags, and a Reiff preheater.  So far so good!  The plane has a wag-aero toe brake STC.  I own and fly a 172 so have club's for feet ;) I will be keeping the 172, and like having toe brakes in both planes.

I had my mechanic come and do a pre-buy of the plane.  Most things are good, some things are a little ehh.  I come to the experts in search of clarity!

1. The plane has a 9 gallon wing tank, only in the left wing.  Have you all ever heard of something like this?  The owner states it's from the factory.  All my research has pulled up no information.  It is placarded 5.5 on the wing, but is apparently 9.  Any information on this would be appreciated... pictures from the tank during the 2002 rebuild are shown below.

2. Both wings have what appear to be thin aluminum angle cross bracing.  I wish I had a picture, but for some reason do not.  You could see it through the inspection holes.  It is maybe 1 inch thick piece of thin aluminum.  It looks like the wing lacing above.  On the RH wing, the aluminum is intact.  On the LH wing, the aluminum is cut.  It looks maybe as if to clear some rigging?  Or maybe due to wing tank?  If this makes any sense to anyone, please do let me know.

3. The rigging appears somewhat slack.  I flew the plane (but have 0 other hrs in a Champ, and only 4hrs in a J3) and it flew fine to my untrained eye.  When looking through the inspection covers, the rigging overhead seemed to touch each other, and one of the wings had what looked like electrical tape to prevent chaffing.

4. The RH oleo strut sits two fingers high, the LH strut three or four fingers high.

5. Lowest compression 61.  It has been sitting for three months so I believe these will come back up with use.

Other than the above, I like the plane.  It is priced at $22k.  It's going through annual now and will have the mags freshly redone, they are at 500hrs.  With no other 7AC experience, I don't have anything to base this on.  Should I walk away?  Run away?  Go for it and have fun?  It has very complete logs, including the first test flight back in February of '46.  Any advice appreciated -- thank you!

 

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[Matt Slezak]

Here's how I'd start my A65:

Chock front wheels (tiny portable chocks)

Mags off

Throttle pulled out fully

Gas on

Turn prop through 4 full turns (i.e. it feels like 8 turns due to engine resistance)

Mags on

Flip prop like you are throwing a fast ball - I'd usually put a foot up then down as I flipped (this was Bendix non impulse though, you probably won't need that strong of a flip).  I always used 2 hands from behind the prop by the right tire.  You may want to use leather gloves as sometimes the prop isn't smooth in spots due to rock chips etc.

If it doesn't start after 4 flips..  

Gas off

Mags off

Pull prop through 4 times (the guess here is you flooded the carb, so you are pulling that excess gas out)

Gas on

Mags on

Flip prop

That worked for me.  Others have their own techniques. It is kind of fun actually since I got a C85 I don't do it anymore.

The A65 is also pretty tame at minimum throttle so I'd just get out grab the passenger side chock, the get in the driver side and pull the chock and toss it in the luggage compartment and go on my way.  Never had an issue with it running away from me.

Best,

Matt/11AC

[Jeff Kimball]

Harvey:

No problem. My process was pretty much developed out of cheapness and lazyness.  I think the rope is 1/4 inch high quality sail boat line I bought at the local marine store.  It's smooth and lays flat without any tendency to coil on it's own etc.  It's probably 40 feet long, maybe 50??  I don't remember right now. 

I tie one end to the pilot's seat right forward leg using a "boat fender knot" (someone did a U-tube on this knot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0SpikA00RI ) Of course on the seat leg the tubing is almost vertical instead of horizontal like in the video, but the knot is the same,  Easy to tie and untie. 

Then I run the rope down the right side of the fuselage, over the tail wheel spring and under the left hand tail wheel steering arm (I have a Scott 2000). 

Then the rope goes around some handy anchor structure behind the airplane.

Back to the tail wheel.  This time it goes under the right hand steering arm, over the tail wheel spring to the left side of the fuselage.

Then it crosses under the fuselage forward of the spring mount and back up the right side of the fuselage.

Then in the door and I use the same sort of knot to tie the end of the rope to the same right forward leg on the pilots seat.  

Once everything is running and I'm in the seat it's easy to untie one end and drop it on the ground. Then I pull on the side of the rope still tied to the seat until the whole is rope back in.  Then I untie the other end and stow it. I don't untie the other end until the entire rope is back in the airplane, because if you do untie both ends and happen to drop both ends on the ground then you have to get out again.. (Gee, how do you think I learned that....)

One word of caution, if you pull it in too fast the loose end of the rope can whip around and get tangled at which time you do need to get out and clear the line.  One time I had it snag on the sharp end of the cotter key on the tail wheel mounting bolt, but that was easy to fix by moving the key end a bit.

The Velcro I use is a little strap which I think came with some computer cables or something.  It's made with hooks on one side and loops on the other so it sticks to it's self.  When I start rigging the rope I loop this piece of Velcro around one of the fuselage tubes above the instrument panel so it's easy to get to once I pull the rope in. 

Once everything is running right and the rope is recoiled, I put the Velcro around it and literally  toss it into the baggage area behind the passengers seat. 

Good luck!

Jeff

[Mark Peterson]

If you don't have an impulse,  you need to hear a sucking sound start in the airfilter, then pull 8 times, by which time you have flooded it if it didn't start.  Then mags off, pull it backwards until gas dribbles out the front, then walk away and check something.  Then come back it should start.

Recently I have had really good luck with fuel on, check gasolator for water, pull prop through (mags off) for six blades, fuel off, finish preflight, start procedure.  Last Wednesday it was the second blade for the start.   This allows the gas to vaporize in the cylinders before you start pulling.

Wear gloves, your ring finger can put a dent in a wood prop.  

Winter MOgas gas is easier to start than summer.

Use a throttle lock to keep the throttle at idle.  Jury rig something on a Champ, in a Chief use a piece of PVC tubing with a slot cut lengthwise to keep the throttle at idle. 

Every engine has its own wisdom to start it.  Learn from the A-65 what works for your baby.

Mark

---

From: aer...@westmont.edu <aer...@westmont.edu> on behalf of Matt Slezak <matthew...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 8:48 AM
To: aer...@westmont.edu

Subject: Re: [f-AA] This close to buying a 7AC... some questions post pre-buy

[Robert Jacoby]

Congratulations! 

And, my suggestion would be to learn how to hand prop.  Fly the airplane for six months or a year before deciding to make any big changes like adding a starter.

I’ve owned my Champ for a little over three years and initially I used the tow hook (I have no idea what my poor little Champ with an A65 was towing in it’s past) to fasten a lanyard to a fixed object on the ramp. Additionally, I would have the wheels chocked before hand propping from the front of the aircraft.  Today I’m very comfortable hand propping from the front with only the chocks. HOWEVER, I use a set of very heavy chocks that I purchased from Harbor Freight Aircraft Supply (product # 96479, or 69853).  MORE IMPORTANTLY, assume that all propellers are always HOT so don’t ever turn the propeller unless you’re prepared for it to suddenly start.

Learn how to hand prop, it’s not only enjoyable, everyone will think you’re a bad ass (except those of us who already know how to do it!).

['Gary Frick' via aeronca]

I was talking to Bill Pancake about something and I mentioned this neat article regarding a SNAP SHACKLE AND A ROPE LOOP as a way of securing your tail wheel and releasing it from the cabin. I thought it was new and a wonderful idea. Bill said yea I did that 50 years ago. Just goes to show you there’s no new news, just different people. Gary

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 9, 2018, at 6:35 PM, Matt Slezak <matthew...@gmail.com> wrote:

With that much documentation and photos I'm sure the bird is fine.  Have you learned how to hand prop yet???  It's pretty easy with Slicks.  Ask the seller if it's a single or dual impulse as the mag switch position is different - usually a single is left mag and a dual well, both mags on before a flip.  

Be sure to have the mags OFF if you hand prime by turning the prop.  And beware that a loose ground can make a mag HOT even when the switch is off.

Have an instructor show you the proper process if you haven't done it before.  It's super easy but a lesson helps.  Whenever an "old school" flyer helped me they stood in front of the prop.  That scares the hell out of me so I'd always sit behind a tire.  Get some portable wheel chocks to keep it in place if you don't have any.  They are small light and fit in the baggage compartment with little space.  

Enjoy your new toy!

Matt/11AC

On Fri, Nov 9, 2018, 5:23 PM Atlas Wegman <agw...@gmail.com wrote:

Pulled the trigger -- looking forward to flying with you all some time in the near future!  Thanks for all the quick replys and input, I really appreciate it!

<IMG_0605.jpeg><IMG_0607.jpeg>

[Roger Anderson]

Ah shoot!   I might as well add mine.   I carry a long light weight nylon rope.  I loop it through the lift handle in the back and run it looped through whatever I'm hitching to.  Then I just tie  a bow knot (like a shoe lace knot) tying the two ends together, but leaving one end of the "lace" long all the way up to the cockpit.  Then from the cockpit, when ready, just pull and the shoe lace unties and you can retrieve it all.   However...all these years of hauling it around, can't ever remember needing it.   With the Chief and locking throttle and parking brake, there is usually someone around to stand at the door as mag switch guard while I prop.  I don't want them in the airplane though.  Just standing at the door, hand on or near switch is best.  roger

On November 10, 2018 at 3:49 PM 'Gary Frick' via aeronca <aer...@westmont.edu> wrote:

I was talking to Bill Pancake about something and I mentioned this neat article regarding a SNAP SHACKLE AND A ROPE LOOP as a way of securing your tail wheel and releasing it from the cabin. I thought it was new and a wonderful idea. Bill said yea I did that 50 years ago. Just goes to show you there’s no new news, just different people. Gary

Sent from my iPhone

--

[Richard Holcombe]

Rule one for handproping, allow no "spectators" to distract you.

I used chocks  tied across to each other, then a line from the middle back to retrieve them from behind the struts by the door.

Follow procedure every time like a pro.

[Atlas Wegman]

Holy moly, again -- thank you for all the replies!  I am still not sure I'm doing this right.  Please let me know if I am replying to you all properly.

Donato, Harvey, thank you for the warm welcome.  If all this ol' 7AC needs is to be flown and loved, I think I can handle that..

Mark, Matt, thank you for the tutorial and tips on the A65. I hope the flooding tip won't be too oft needed, but am sure it will be..

Richard, I like that "rule number one" !  Focus on the task at hand, I find a lot of accidents can be avoided that way.

I hope I didn't miss anyone.  Again if I'm doing this all wrong please let me know!

[George Weller]

I agree.  4 quarts means 1/2 quart goes out very soon.  3 1/2 stays a long time.

I have used mogas for 35 years and have had on problems, but I always shut off by shutting the fuel lever and when the engine stops, then shutting off the ignition switch.  That way the carb is left dry.

-- 
George K. Weller

Weller Farm
airport:  ctq2
web page: ctq2.org

[Atlas Wegman]

This bird has a 6gal dip stick, if I recall correctly.  I believe it is an upgraded oil tank which allows the higher capacity, maybe from an 0-200?  Nonetheless, I agree.  Fill to where it's happy and stable!

On shutdown, I questioned the previous owner about his preferred method to do so.  I assumed we'd pull the mixture control (Marvel-Schebler carb), let the engine die, then shut down the mags.  That is how I do it on my 172, then proceed to switch the fuel to either tank (not off, but L or R).  He said if we did that we'd never get it started again!!  Curious you alls thoughts on that.  I am assuming he just means it'd make it harder to prime, but I like the idea of having no fuel left in the carb to clog jets, etc.

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[Harvey Brock]

Atlas,

    On my previous Aeronca [the Chief Duane has now] and the Champ I have now, restarting a hot engine is much easier if I shut the fuel valve off and let it empty the carb. If it had time to cool down, it didn't make much difference. My Champ will not lean enough to shut down in hot summer temperatures, even with rapid throttle advances. So, it is a little limited on shut down procedures.

Harvey, who is currently in snow covered Peoria (driving).

Get Outlook for Android

On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 9:47:25 AM UTC-5, Atlas Wegman wrote:

Hello all!  

First time posting here, I hope this is all right.  I have been looking at a 1946 7AC near me.  The basics: 1586 Airframe Total Time. Continental A-65-8F with Millennium cylinders. Overhauled in 2002 by Pine Mountain. TTE: 2049. SMOH: 545. Sensenich Prop, Slick mags, and a Reiff preheater.  So far so good!  The plane has a wag-aero toe brake STC.  I own and fly a 172 so have club's for feet ;) I will be keeping the 172, and like having toe brakes in both planes.

I had my mechanic come and do a pre-buy of the plane.  Most things are good, some things are a little ehh.  I come to the experts in search of clarity!

1. The plane has a 9 gallon wing tank, only in the left wing.  Have you all ever heard of something like this?  The owner states it's from the factory.  All my research has pulled up no information.  It is placarded 5.5 on the wing, but is apparently 9.  Any information on this would be appreciated... pictures from the tank during the 2002 rebuild are shown below.

2. Both wings have what appear to be thin aluminum angle cross bracing.  I wish I had a picture, but for some reason do not.  You could see it through the inspection holes.  It is maybe 1 inch thick piece of thin aluminum.  It looks like the wing lacing above.  On the RH wing, the aluminum is intact.  On the LH wing, the aluminum is cut.  It looks maybe as if to clear some rigging?  Or maybe due to wing tank?  If this makes any sense to anyone, please do let me know.

3. The rigging appears somewhat slack.  I flew the plane (but have 0 other hrs in a Champ, and only 4hrs in a J3) and it flew fine to my untrained eye.  When looking through the inspection covers, the rigging overhead seemed to touch each other, and one of the wings had what looked like electrical tape to prevent chaffing.

4. The RH oleo strut sits two fingers high, the LH strut three or four fingers high.

5. Lowest compression 61.  It has been sitting for three months so I believe these will come back up with use.

Other than the above, I like the plane.  It is priced at $22k.  It's going through annual now and will have the mags freshly redone, they are at 500hrs.  With no other 7AC experience, I don't have anything to base this on.  Should I walk away?  Run away?  Go for it and have fun?  It has very complete logs, including the first test flight back in February of '46.  Any advice appreciated -- thank you!

 

[Atlas Wegman]

Thanks for the input Harvey!  I am so excited to get my Champ and start learning it's little nuances..  I have sent payment for the plane today, woohoo!