[f-AA] Various starters for A-65s

[Hunter Heath]

Regarding: "I just talked to Harold Hamp who has an STC to install a starter on Continental A65 engines. He uses a DeWalt 18 volt drill to drive a ring gear that he installs behind the prop. The cost is $1850.00 plus installation. Very, very interesting.

Rusty N28460"

 

Hmm.  If I were getting paid, say, $5 per blade to prop the Chief, and it were $3000 for some new starter system, that's equivalent to 600 blades.  At the rate I'm flying, I'd never get my money's worth!  ;-)

Hunter

[Don Harvie]

Hunter,

On the other hand what is a limb, life, aircraft getting away or engine
teardown worth if one of those 600 blades goes wrong. ;-) Not suggesting
they will, just that they could.

I wonder what the longevity of the cordless drill battery will be in a
hot engine compartment.

Don H
(Sydney, Aus)

--
Virus scanned by clamav.
_______________________________________________
Aeronca mailing list
Aer...@westmont.edu
http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

[piper...@charter.net]

I've landed at Howard's airport and looked at his starter. It's really neat and throws the blade like a large starter. He really has something there.

[Markl]

Another Point of view

I totally enjoy propping my L-16 and it will be a sad day if I have to have a starter.  I would not accept a starter if it was installed for nothing.   However, it is good to know there is a viable alternative to adding all the weight and expense and maintenance of an electrical system.  I expect mandatory starters as soon as someone launches an Aeronca toward security type airspace.  For this reason I am an evangelist for safer propping and have written articles on this.    Anyone who would like this article (was printed in Vintage Airplane mag a few years ago) please email me OFFlist.  

 

  Hopefully I will be gone before this all happens.

 

Just OMO as usual.

 

Fly frequently, many times, often, over and over again, LOOK around,
practice strange stuff, and hand prop safely!
Regards,
Tony Markl

[Rich Dugger]

Unless it avoids one mishap??

 

I admit it is pricey by my standards. But probably in line with what it costs to get the STC past our friends at the FAA.

 

$1850.00 won't go far in the Emergency Room.

 

Rich

[Brian Matz]

Probably not what you want to hear Tony, but I just heard about a solo hand-propped runaway Chief that chewed up the wing of a 172 parked nearby just this past Sunday somewhere in West Virginia. I'm trying to find out more info about what happened from the owner of the 172 who posted this on another list. The Chief was on a ferry flight from New York to Kentucky. The first photo below shows what appears to be an undamaged prop on the Chief, so not sure exactly how this all happened. Anyone recognize the Chief? Looks like a BC or CC...

pics at
http://www.aerialaspectphoto.com/public/_B1K8332.jpg
http://www.aerialaspectphoto.com/public/_B1K8335.jpg

Brian

--- On Wed, 10/22/08, Markl <ma...@intercom.net> wrote:

> I totally enjoy propping my L-16 and it will be a sad day
> if I have to have a starter.

[j...@joea.com]

Brian,

Tried to enlarge the photo to see the registration number but no luck.

Sorry to hear this and this is the reason why I used a logging chain to tie the
tail to the hangar (or other large object) when hand propping.

That said, I am really getting used to an electric starter on the Sedan. I still
love hand propping but pushing the button is a lot safer.

Joe A

[Thomas DeWinter]

I love the idea. It looks like you can still prop the plane if you want to for the romance of it.

 

But I'm not sure I love it $2,500 worth.  At least not yet. My first $2,000 is going to convert to new mags and harness.

 

Also long term, how many years down the road will they be making the replacement battery for that cordless drill?  At which point a replacement drill would be needed that is not standard and the whole STC goes out the window.  Just a thought to consider.

 

I really like the idea of a low weight starter.  And hope this remains a viable business and a going concern into the future.

---

From: Rich Dugger <66l...@verizon.net>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 8:08:33 AM
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Various starters for A-65s

Unless it avoids one mishap??

 

I admit it is pricey by my standards. But probably in line with what it costs to get the STC past our friends at the FAA.

 

$1850.00 won't go far in the Emergency Room.

 

Rich

----- Original Message -----

From: Hunter Heath

To: aer...@westmont.edu

Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 10:33 PM

Subject: [f-AA] Various starters for A-65s

Regarding: "I just talked to Harold Hamp who has an STC to install a starter on Continental A65 engines. He uses a DeWalt 18 volt drill to drive a ring gear that he installs behind the prop. The cost is $1850.00 plus installation. Very, very interesting.

Rusty N28460"

 

Hmm.  If I were getting paid, say, $5 per blade to prop the Chief, and it were $3000 for some new starter system, that's equivalent to 600 blades.  At the rate I'm flying, I'd never get my money's worth!  ;-)

Hunter

---

_______________________________________________

[j...@joea.com]

If you look at the photos that Brian just posted, both wings will have to be
overhauled on the Chief that got away recently.

$1800 is chicken feed when you are looking at rebuilding two wings, pls the
damage on the C-172 and all of that's if no one was hurt in the process.

Joe A

On 22 Oct 2008 at 8:08, Rich Dugger wrote:

>
> Unless it avoids one mishap??
>
> I admit it is pricey by my standards. But probably in line with what it costs to get the STC past our
> friends at the FAA.
>
> $1850.00 won't go far in the Emergency Room.
>
> Rich
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hunter Heath
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 10:33 PM
> Subject: [f-AA] Various starters for A-65s
> Regarding: "I just talked to Harold Hamp who has an STC to install a starter on Continental
> A65 engines. He uses a DeWalt 18 volt drill to drive a ring gear that he installs behind the
> prop. The cost is $1850.00 plus installation. Very, very interesting.
> Rusty N28460"
>

> Hmm. If I were getting paid, say, $5 per blade to prop the Chief,and it were$3000 for

> some new starter system, that's equivalent to 600 blades. At the rate I'm flying, I'd never
> get my money's worth! ;-)
> Hunter

[Brian Matz]

Yeah, the photos the guy sent me are so small you can't make out the N number...

--- On Wed, 10/22/08, j...@joea.com <j...@joea.com> wrote:

[Brian Matz]

The 172's damage is much more serious than it appears. Apparently the Chief's tail somehow went up on the 172's nose which pulled up it's tied-down tail causing the fuselage to buckle. This was a very expensive mistake...

--- On Wed, 10/22/08, Brian Matz <bwmat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[j...@joea.com]

Take the old battery pack out of the cordless drill then take it to someplace
like Batteries Plus. They will open it up and replace the batteries, usually
with better batteries than were in it, and you are back in business in a couple
of hours.

If you do not have a starter, make sure you tie the airplane down when hand
propping.

Joe A

On 22 Oct 2008 at 6:38, Thomas DeWinter wrote:

>
> I love the idea. It looks like you can still prop the plane if you want to for the romance of it.
>
> But I'm not sure I love it $2,500 worth. At least not yet. My first $2,000 is going to convert to new
> mags and harness.
>
> Also long term, how many years down the road will they be making the replacement battery for
> that cordless drill? At which point a replacement drill would be needed that is not standard and
> the whole STC goes out the window. Just a thought to consider.
>

> I really like the idea of a low weight starter. And hope this remains a viable business anda going
> concern into the future.
>
>

> From: Rich Dugger <66l...@verizon.net>
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 8:08:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Various starters for A-65s
>
> Unless it avoids one mishap??
>
> I admit it is pricey by my standards. But probably in line with what it costs to get the STC past our
> friends at the FAA.
>
> $1850.00 won't go far in the Emergency Room.
>
> Rich
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hunter Heath
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 10:33 PM
> Subject: [f-AA] Various starters for A-65s
> Regarding: "I just talked to Harold Hamp who has an STC to install a starter on Continental
> A65 engines. He uses a DeWalt 18 volt drill to drive a ring gear that he installs behind the
> prop. The cost is $1850.00 plus installation. Very, very interesting.
> Rusty N28460"
>

> Hmm. If I were getting paid, say, $5 per blade to prop the Chief,and it were$3000 for

> some new starter system, that's equivalent to 600 blades. At the rate I'm flying, I'd never
> get my money's worth! ;-)
> Hunter
>

[Rafael]

But why carry a drill with battery?, why not make a small conection where I just plug in the drill? something like the Stearms have? Rafael --- On Wed, 10/22/08, piper...@charter.net <piper...@charter.net> wrote:

From: piper...@charter.net <piper...@charter.net> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Various starters for A-65s

[Rafael]

It looks like one f the right wing tied down let loose and the chif spun around makig wing with wing contact only Rafael

--- On Wed, 10/22/08, Brian Matz <bwmat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Brian Matz <bwmat...@yahoo.com> Subject: [f-AA] Another runaway... To: aer...@westmont.edu

[Rafael]

I rather spend some more and get the McDwel starter INMHO --- On Wed, 10/22/08, Thomas DeWinter <toms...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Thomas DeWinter <toms...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Various starters for A-65s

[j...@joea.com]

A complete McDowell just sold on ebay for less than this starter cost.
Believe it went for $1400 and change.

That said, the electric drill type starter is much better IMHO in its operation
than the McDowell. Now before I ruffle some feathers, its also FUGLY with
that massive flywheel/starter ring outside the cowling IMHO. I would not get
one but that's me and everyone is different.

Joe A

On 22 Oct 2008 at 7:56, Rafael wrote:

>
> I rather spend some more and get the McDwel starter INMHO
>
> --- On Wed, 10/22/08, Thomas DeWinter <toms...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: Thomas DeWinter <toms...@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Various starters for A-65s
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 6:38 AM
>
> I love the idea. It looks like you can still prop the plane if you want to for the romance of it.
>
> But I'm not sure I love it $2,500 worth. At least not yet. My first $2,000 is going to convert to new
> mags and harness.
>
> Also long term, how many years down the road will they be making the replacement battery for
> that cordless drill? At which point a replacement drill would be needed that is not standard and
> the whole STC goes out the window. Just a thought to consider.
>

> I really like the idea of a low weight starter. And hope this remains a viable business anda going
> concern into the future.
>
>

> From: Rich Dugger <66l...@verizon.net>
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 8:08:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Various starters for A-65s
>
> Unless it avoids one mishap??
>
> I admit it is pricey by my standards. But probably in line with what it costs to get the STC past our
> friends at the FAA.
>
> $1850.00 won't go far in the Emergency Room.
>
> Rich
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hunter Heath
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 10:33 PM
> Subject: [f-AA] Various starters for A-65s
> Regarding: "I just talked to Harold Hamp who has an STC to install a starter on Continental
> A65 engines. He uses a DeWalt 18 volt drill to drive a ring gear that he installs behind the
> prop. The cost is $1850.00 plus installation. Very, very interesting.
> Rusty N28460"
>

> Hmm. If I were getting paid, say, $5 per blade to prop the Chief,and it were$3000 for

> some new starter system, that's equivalent to 600 blades. At the rate I'm flying, I'd never
> get my money's worth! ;-)
> Hunter

[Dale P. Jewett]

Joe A,

I agree with your opinion on the appearance of the electric drill starter.

I am of the opinion that with proper care and procedures the hand propping
is OK. If I were doing it alone without a "qualified" person in the cockpit,
I would certainly tie the tail securely, then pull the plane up taut against
the tie down, set the brakes, set the throttle to idle with a stop of some
sort before I did the propping.

I have propped a friend's Luscombe 8A with the A65 numerous times, but
always with him at the controls. No problem, but I do jump back and sideways
promptly after the pull through.

As I recall, Tony Markl's treatise on the subject is very good.

Dale Jewett

----- Original Message -----
From: <j...@joea.com>
To: <aer...@westmont.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Various starters for A-65s

>A complete McDowell just sold on ebay for less than this starter cost.
> Believe it went for $1400 and change.
>
> That said, the electric drill type starter is much better IMHO in its
> operation
> than the McDowell. Now before I ruffle some feathers, its also FUGLY with
> that massive flywheel/starter ring outside the cowling IMHO. I would not
> get
> one but that's me and everyone is different.
>
> Joe A

_______________________________________________

[Mike Knemeyer]

On 10/22/08, j...@joea.com <j...@joea.com> wrote:
> A complete McDowell just sold on ebay for less than this starter cost.
> Believe it went for $1400 and change.

The chance of finding a complete McDowell starter, all brackets,
pulleys, starter lever, cable nose bowl ect are slim to none for
$2000. Is there not some machining needed to the case nose?? You get
one blade with how much pulling force?? With the drill even a cave man
can start a Chief!

Mike k

[Mike Knemeyer]

> I am of the opinion that with proper care and procedures the hand propping
> is OK.

But as the OF#'s keep growing it would not be a bad thing if not
having to hand prop.

Mike K OF#46 who hopes to still hand prop for some time

[j...@joea.com]

Mike,

No machining on most of the small Continentals, but there is a geared wheel
that goes on the crank, then a couple of "plates" that bolt on the nose of the
engine, and finally a bracket that mounts on the bottom of the LH side of the
engine area. Some have to be made but hopefully a complete unit will have
all of these.

Its not a "quick and dirty" thing to do and does not work well all the time, and
that's one of the main reasons why the McDowell's were removed and
trashed years ago.

Joe

[JODY WITTMEYER]

The McDowells were a brilliant idea, but lawn mower technology. They worked
very well, until people got lazy. They were designed for the pilot to turn
the prop by hand to prime it, just as we normally do. At the point you
would turn on the mag, then pull the prop to start the engine, you got
inside, turned the mag on and pulled the lever. The lever only moved the
prop past the impulse, @ 60 degrees. People got lazy and would do
everything with the starter. They were not designed to be used that much,
nor would they work well with non impulse mags. @$1,500. What's your
airplane, or some ones life worth? I saw the drill starters on a cub at
OSH. Brilliant idea! Pricey, for what you get but hey, who else has come up
with a safe starter for the old birds. Ingenuity has to be worth something.

JODY WITTMEYER
jod...@earthlink.net
EarthLink Revolves Around You.

[JODY WITTMEYER]

There is a man that designed one that the small motor is permanently mounted to the engine. Battery and switch in cockpit.

[Richard Starr]

--- You wrote:
Its not a "quick and dirty" thing to do and does not work well all the time, and
that's one of the main reasons why the McDowell's were removed and
trashed years ago.

--- end of quote ---
Probably true. But I love my McDowell starter. When it is set up so the cable
runs true and clear, there isn't much that can happen to it. The handle does
return slowly in cold weather. We'll see if Lock Ease graphite lube helps.
But it sure is nice to be sitting right next to the primer with your chilly feet
on the brakes.

And you can always hand prop if you get tired of yanking the lever when starting
is hard.

I agree that it may be more than it's worth to install one unless you have all
the parts from an original Chief installation and the right nosebowl and
spinner.

It would be fun to see the electric drill gadget though.

Rich (in Vermont, where the colors are fading but still amazing.)

[Rich Dugger]

If you have impulse mags it doesn't take any force to spin the prop, all you
need to do is get the impulse to fire.
(if you have air and fuel)

I see guys try to throw the prop like it needs to go around ten times.
It just isn't necessary.

Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Knemeyer" <mkne...@gmail.com>
To: <aer...@westmont.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Various starters for A-65s

[Markl]

Well, I guess the good news is that it was in W VA instead of someplace with instant TV coverage.     Saddest part is that no one will learn anything from this event. 

 

Fly frequently, many times, often, over and over again, LOOK around,
practice strange stuff, and hand prop safely!
Regards,
Tony Markl

----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Matz

To: aer...@westmont.edu

[Markl]

$1800 + 500 may be chicken feed but if the pilot had good training in hand propping and some self discipline I bet the accident would not have happened.

 

I am not one for getting government into things but am not sure I am against a "hand propping" training requirement.  This accident has nothing to do with hand propping but rather with self discipline in  tying down or chocks or throttle idle lock etc and doing it ALWAYS.

 

Just OMO

 

Fly frequently, many times, often, over and over again, LOOK around,
practice strange stuff, and hand prop safely!
Regards,
Tony Markl

----- Original Message -----

From: j...@joea.com

To: aer...@westmont.edu

[Markl]

This OF is of the opinion that most hand proppers are OFs and that eventually we will go the way of the radio range, whistle stop tuning, the VAR, etc.

 

Hand propping accidents by that time will mostly involve younger folks who are propping something with a dead battery.

 

Regards
Tony  Markl
ma...@intercom.net
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
(tailwheel training /fabric work taught or done at your location)

----- Original Message -----

From: Mike Knemeyer

To: aer...@westmont.edu

Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 11:42 AM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Various starters for A-65s

[Hunter Heath]

Folks,

 

I see that my tongue-in-cheek remark about the cost of a starter "per blade" was taken too seriously!  As usual, the glint in the eye, the wry smile, or the ironic tone of voice don't make it through the email filter....

 

Yes, starters decrease the risk of hand-propping injuries and "get-aways."  At the cost of weight, maintenance, and complexity.  But I bought the Chief knowing it had to be hand-propped, and not particularly unhappy about that.  I don't trust myself in every way, but I certainly trust myself to set brakes, chock wheels, and tie down the tail before a starting attempt w/o a competent someone in the cockpit.

 

Every runaway I've heard or read about was preceded by one or more dumb decisions.  I swear by the Book of Tony Markl, "No dumb hand-propping decisions!"  {Note ironic smile and tone of voice!}

 

Hunter

[Scott Johnson]

Not to mention cost of certification. My bet is that Harold has to sell
around 25 or so to break even but who knows.

Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On
Behalf Of JODY WITTMEYER
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 12:53 PM
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Various starters for A-65s

[piper...@charter.net]

I agree with Jody. I have a McDowell in my Chief and love it. I get it set up by hand then stand in the doorway to pull in through. If it does not start - which happens occasionally, I repeat the process. They were not designed for the pilot to sit in the seat and continue to pull it through.

[j...@joea.com]

Agreed but many new pilots flying Aeronca and other old airplanes are not
as cautious as we are.

My Chief was never going to get away from me, but I cannot say that about
the 35 year old new owner. I tried to educate him but there are limits...

Joe A

[Don Harvie]

Joe,

Getting him on this list and the NAA bulletin board would be a _really_
good start in this 35(+5) year old's opinion.

But my guess is you've already been there...

Don H
(and to think I only joined this list 'cause Dad was having trouble with
email bouncing ;-)

j...@joea.com wrote:
> Agreed but many new pilots flying Aeronca and other old airplanes are not
> as cautious as we are.
>
> My Chief was never going to get away from me, but I cannot say that about
> the 35 year old new owner. I tried to educate him but there are limits...
>
> Joe A
>
> On 22 Oct 2008 at 17:45, Markl wrote:

--
Virus scanned by clamav.

[Richard Starr]

--- You wrote:
I agree with Jody. I have a McDowell in my Chief and love it. I get it set up
by hand then stand in the doorway to pull in through. If it does not start -
which happens occasionally, I repeat the process. They were not designed for
the pilot to sit in the seat and continue to pull it through.

--- end of quote ---

Really? To me, half the point of the starter is sitting there with my heels
near the brakes. (The other half is having hands nowhere near the blades.) You
must have to secure the plane to keep it from getting away. Also, I'm trying
to imagine yanking that lever while standing outside the plane without pulling
the plane backwards on its wheels. How do you do it?

By the way, if I remember correctly, the Aeronca manual suggests using the
primer to charge up the engine and not pulling blades through at all. It's the
kind automobile thinking that went into the sales position of the Chief.
Ashtrays. Glove compartments. Wood grain. No need to touch the prop. Kind of
like a 1946 Chevy. But I can't imagine not pulling the prop through by hand
before getting in the plane to start it with the McDowell.

Rich (in Vermont)

[j...@joea.com]

Don,

Agree totally and really wish he would get on the boards to get some
assistance but "you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him
drink" so to speak.

One of the list members flew down to a Saturday breakfast held at the
airport last weekend to meet with him and see the airplane. Waited around
for 2 hours and finally returned home. Turns out that the new owner was in
the gym working out. The one weekend a month when they have get-
togethers and where he could meet new people and learn about the airplane
and such. You can work out anytime, day or night.

Oh well, have done what I can...

Joe

[ssma...@optonline.net]

My McDowell is the envy of all the Champ and Cub drivers on our field. Pull the Chief out of the hangar, set everything up and go.

 

Steve 9013E

----- Original Message -----
From: piper...@charter.net
Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 9:57 pm
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Various starters for A-65s