[f-AA] Tailwheel training

[Ben Higginbotham]

Hi Guys I have finely found a plane that has the third wheel in the right location. So Friday I start working on my tailwheel endorsement any advice would be most welcome. As I recall someone on the list has an excellent booklet or something on this subject but I can't remember who if someone could point me in the right direction that would be great                                                       Thanks                                                        Ben Ben Higginbotham Seymour, Indiana, KSER,

[j...@joea.com]

Ben,

Get Tony Markl's hand out on flying tailwheel airplanes.

Joe A

_______________________________________________
Aeronca mailing list
Aer...@westmont.edu
http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

[Vand...@aol.com]

Ben,

Tony Markl has several excellent handouts on various aspects of conventional gear piloting.  You must request them from him.  He posts frequently on this list.

My recommendation for a text book is Plourd's Compleat Taildragger Pilot.  It is available from Amazon-

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=a9_sc_1?rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Atailwheel&keywords=tailwheel&ie=UTF8&qid=1277314351

Good luck, have fun, and remember this is not as difficult as it might first appear.

Dan vdMeer

[Henry Wortman]

"The Complete Taildragger Pilot" by Harvey S. Plourde has been recommended to me. I have not yet read it but will do so shortly.

Henry

[Rob McDonald]

Somebody here used to have a sig line that advised:

When landing a tail dragger, the objective is to stay centered over the
runway with no drift or yaw, so that the wreckage goes straight down the
middle of runway :-)

Rob

[Tom Holmes]

I stopped off in NC on my way home and got some time in an L3 belonging to Sierra Tango Aviation.  Nice airplane, grass strip, great day!

Tom

---

From: Rob McDonald <r...@sunrisetechnical.ca>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Wed, June 23, 2010 2:36:34 PM
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Tailwheel training

[Thomas DeWinter]

Three things to keep in mind that just came  quickly to mind.

1) Remember that this is not rocket science.  You just have to be much more aware of where the nose is heading and adding small corrections as soon as it starts going somewhere other than where you want it to go.  Small deviation = small correction.  Big deviation may result in ground loop.  Don't let it get to be a big deviation.

2) Keep pressure on each foot against the rudder peddles.  I'm not saying push hard.  But you do not want to ever really put your feet on the floor or away from the rudders.  You want to have them immediately available for action without delay or time wasted for slack distance between your foot and the peddle.  Remember rule #1, small deviation, small correction.

3) Don't be afraid to go around.  A go around is dramatically less embarrassing than a ground loop or damage etc.  If anyone other than a taildragger pilot gives you any gruff.  Tell them to go take a lesson and put their money where their mouth is!

---

From: Ben Higginbotham <behi...@yahoo.com>
To: Aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Wed, June 23, 2010 12:19:17 PM
Subject: [f-AA] Tailwheel training

[11...@comcast.net]

The one biggie you will hear is..."keep the wheel/stick in your lap (all the way back) after arriving on the surface when 3 pointing (full stall landing)". 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Higginbotham" <behi...@yahoo.com>
To: Aer...@westmont.edu

[j...@joea.com]

And its very correct!

Joe A

[j...@joea.com]

4. Wear a pair of shoes that allow you to feel things, not a big pair of boots or the
like.

You need to feel your rear end starting to swing, while at the same time the nose
turns and your eyes see the change.

When this starts to happen is the time to put a bit of opposite rudder in the mix. If
you cannot feel the pedals its a lot more difficult.

Joe A

On 23 Jun 2010 at 14:22, Thomas DeWinter wrote:

>
> Three things to keep in mind that just came quickly to mind.
>
> 1) Remember that this is not rocket science. You just have to be much more
> aware of where the nose is heading and adding small corrections as soon as it
> starts going somewhere other than where you want it to go. Small deviation =
> small correction. Big deviation may result in ground loop. Don't let it get to be a
> big deviation.
>
> 2) Keep pressure on each foot against the rudder peddles. I'm not saying push
> hard. But you do not want to ever really put your feet on the floor or away from
> the rudders. You want to have them immediately available for action without
> delay or time wasted for slack distance between your foot and the peddle.
> Remember rule #1, small deviation, small correction.
>
> 3) Don't be afraid to go around. A go around is dramatically less embarrassing
> than a ground loop or damage etc. If anyone other than a taildragger pilot gives
> you any gruff. Tell them to go take a lesson and put their money where their
> mouth is!
>
>

> From: Ben Higginbotham <behi...@yahoo.com>
> To: Aer...@westmont.edu
> Sent: Wed, June 23, 2010 12:19:17 PM
> Subject: [f-AA] Tailwheel training
>
> Hi Guys
> I have finely found a plane that has the third wheel in the right location. So Friday
> I start working on my tailwheel endorsement any advice would be most welcome.
> As I recall someone on the list has an excellent booklet or something on this
> subject but I can't remember who if someone could point me in the right direction
> that would be great
>
> Thanks
> Ben
> Ben Higginbotham
> Seymour, Indiana,
> KSER

[John Rodkey]

And don't 'chase' the airplane with the elevator input, which leads to pilot induced oscillation.  If you find yourself in that situation, it's time to go around.

John (who recently made 3 go-arounds at 2 different airports and doesn't feel the least bit embarrassed.)

--
John (poobah) Rodkey - N9361E 11AC at Goleta

[John Rodkey]

Yes - I know of some who go barefoot or use moccasins, but I like to wear tennis shoes with flexible soles.  

[Lapthorne, Peter (AZ75)]

Ben,

 

From my own experience, having been where you are, just over twelve months ago, get in touch with Tony Markl. He has some great notes on handling tailwheel aircraft.

 

I was having all sorts of trouble with wheel landings and Tony got me sorted out. Not bad, considering I am 12000 miles from him.

 

Cheers

Peter Lapthorne,

BGA Field Service Engineering

Phone +61 3 9933 0106

Fax +61 3 9335 1884

Shoe Phone +61 417 567 243

 

Honeywell Aerospace - Melbourne

26 - 34 Fraser St.

Airport West

Vic. 3042

Australia

 

"This e-mail, and any attachments thereto, are intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and contain Honeywell confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying which amounts to misappropriation of this e-mail and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify me and permanently delete the original and any copy of any e-mail and any printout thereof."

 

---

[Markl]

I discourage tennis shoes or other flexible shoes as I these will not slide on the floorboards and I have had students get the heel caught when the other foot was trying to move forward.  This event produces unwanted results and spooks the student.   To teach "feel the rear end starting to swing" I will have the student fly with his eyes closed and make turns left and right until he uses his cheeks as a slip/skid indicator.

 

Regards
Tony  Markl
ma...@intercom.net
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
(tailwheel training /fabric work taught or done at your location)

----- Original Message -----

From: John Rodkey

To: aer...@westmont.edu

Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 12:12 AM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Tailwheel training

[Spence, Mike]

And you shouldn't John, that's just superior judgement and decision making !

"Good Show"

 

MS

---

From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of John Rodkey

Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 12:12 AM

To: aer...@westmont.edu

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Tailwheel training

[Vand...@aol.com]

To teach "feel the rear end starting to swing" I will have the student fly with his eyes closed and make turns left and right until he uses his cheeks as a slip/skid indicator.

 

Tony,

Forgive my dumb questions re your excellent practice.  Am I correct in assuming that you (as CFI) are making the turns while the student has eyes closed?  Can the student be taught to differentiate a slip from a skidding turn from a coordinated turn?  Or is the point simply to train the student to sense change in yaw and compensate for appropriately and immediately?

Dan

 

 

[Spence, Mike]

This is a really interesting topic/discussion we are working up here - One of my favourites

In flight testing instructors, or wanna-be instructors up here in the GWN, I find the "Control of Yaw" & "Skid or Slip" to be the least understood.

 

MS

---

From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of Vand...@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:53 AM

To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Tailwheel training

[Markl]

Guess I did not make myself clear. 

 

 I have the student fly with his eyes closed.  My eyes are open of course.  I tell him to make turns in various directions and climb/descend with power changes.  Since he cannot see anything all he has for instruments is his brain, his ears for sound changes, his cheeks for slip skid info, and whatever amount of sunlight (if sun is shining) gets through his eyelids.

I have been impressed with how well they can stay coordinated with this technique

 

Fly low and slow and many times - carefully
 and practice strange stuff.
Regards,
Tony Markl

----- Original Message -----

From: Vand...@aol.com

To: aer...@westmont.edu

Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:53 AM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Tailwheel training

[j...@joea.com]

I have this happen all the time.

I always tell the tower "this puppy is slow, about 60 mph, on final. Please do not
stack other traffic close behind me!" Two days ago when landing while coming
home from Middletown said the same thing and the tower asked why I said that.
Told him that I did not want the people behind me to have to do a go-around.

What do you think happened? Tower stacked them up too close to me and the guy
behind me had to go around. I warned them and funny thing is that the tower was
the one who had egg on their faces. I warned them...

Joe A

On 24 Jun 2010 at 8:30, Spence, Mike wrote:

>
> And you shouldn't John, that's justsuperior judgement anddecision making !
> "Good Show"
>
> MS
>
>

> From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf
> Of John Rodkey
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 12:12 AM
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Tailwheel training
>
>
> John (who recently made 3 go-arounds at 2 different airports and doesn't feel the least bit
> embarrassed.)

[John Rodkey]

Great idea about the closed eyes.  I'll try it with Erik and Adelle next time we're up.

If not tennis shoes, what kind of shoes would you recommend, Tony?  I'm about ready for a new pair of shoes, so I'm all ears.

John

[Thomas DeWinter]

I can't remember if if was Bob Hoover or not who said something like...

"It is better to use superior judgment to avoid having to use you're superior piloting skills to save yourself."

Bravo!

---

From: "Spence, Mike" <mike....@tc.gc.ca>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Thu, June 24, 2010 7:30:28 AM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Tailwheel training

[Spence, Mike]

Transport Canada has a Safety Poster that says "A Superior Pilot is, one that uses Superior Judgement, to avoid situations that will require the use of Superior Skill"

 

MS

---

From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of Thomas DeWinter
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 11:05 AM

To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Tailwheel training

[Mark PETERSON]

I'm a tennis shoe flyer.   I get out of the oxfords to go fly because I like to feel the
pedal pressure on my foot.  We Chief pilots don't have the floodboard issue as much
because we fly with the luxurious carpeting on the floor.  BTW, my SOP is to have my
feet off the floor and on the pedals on landing and takeoff. I wouldn't even have the
heels close to the floor.  Usually on the 45 my checklist includes feet off floor, kick
the rudders a little, like a prize boxer bumping his fists together before a fight.

Mark

---

From: ma...@intercom.net
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 07:03:03 -0400

---

Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Learn more.

[Tony Buttacavoli]

used to fly the cub barefoot,everything from sandals to boots in the champ(depending on the season),and old Marine infantry boots in my freightdog DC3s.

--- On Thu, 6/24/10, Mark PETERSON <mrpet...@msn.com> wrote:

> From: Mark PETERSON <mrpet...@msn.com>
> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Tailwheel training
> To: "The Fearless Aeronca Aviators" <aer...@westmont.edu>
> Date: Thursday, June 24, 2010, 11:39 AM
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm a tennis shoe flyer.   I get out of the
> oxfords to go fly because I like to feel the
> pedal pressure on my foot.  We Chief pilots don't
> have the floodboard issue as much
> because we fly with the luxurious carpeting on the
> floor.  BTW, my SOP is to have my
> feet off the floor and on the pedals on landing and
> takeoff. I wouldn't even have the
> heels close to the floor.  Usually on the 45 my
> checklist includes feet off floor, kick
> the rudders a little, like a prize boxer bumping his fists
> together before a fight.
>
> Mark
>

> Hotmail has tools for
> the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Learn
> more.
>

> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----

[Markl]

Shoes with heels that slide and a sole that does not bend easily.  This is to prevent getting a shoe jammed between the floorboard and the rudder pedal.

[G WILKEN]

Yep. My old and very experienced instructor would have me wiggle my toes on short final:) I still do it.

ginny

All stunts performed without a net!

---

[Rob McDonald]

I've seen that, and it is one of my favorite aviation sayings.

While I don't always succeed, I try to fly in accordance with that
concept... and try to learn from the times that I realize that my
judgement was flawed.

Rob

On Thu, 2010-06-24 at 11:26 -0400, Spence, Mike wrote:
> Transport Canada has a Safety Poster that says "A Superior Pilot is,
> one that uses Superior Judgement, to avoid situations that will
> require the use of Superior Skill"
>
> MS

[Ben Higginbotham]

Hi guys Thanks for all the info lots to think about I will just have to treat it like every thing else and go one step at a time. So is life                                                     Thanks Ben Ben Higginbotham Seymour, Indiana, KSER, --- On Thu, 6/24/10, Markl <ma...@intercom.net> wrote:

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

[David Carder]

me to.

 

                                            Dave Carder

                                            N4125E 11cc

----- Original Message -----

From: G WILKEN

To: aer...@westmont.edu

Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 1:41 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Tailwheel training

[jay curtis]

me 3,I think it refreshes the brain-eye-hand-feet reflexes..!!

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2961 - Release Date: 06/24/10 14:35:00

[Lapthorne, Peter (AZ75)]

Most intriguing.

 

Maybe I have to accumulate more tail wheel hours before I need reminding to get my feet active.

 

I am still finding myself highly aware of using the rudder for normal flying , let alone landing. Far more rudder than I have had to use in any of my flying pre-Chief.

 

And every landing is still an adventure where I am on the edge of my seat from the moment I turn base leg.

 

So I’m still at the stage where I am highly aware that I have feet that have a lot to do before I use them to walk away from the hangar!

 

Cheers

Peter Lapthorne,

BGA Field Service Engineering

Phone +61 3 9933 0106

Fax +61 3 9335 1884

Shoe Phone +61 417 567 243

 

Honeywell Aerospace - Melbourne

26 - 34 Fraser St.

Airport West

Vic. 3042

Australia

 

"This e-mail, and any attachments thereto, are intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and contain Honeywell confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying which amounts to misappropriation of this e-mail and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify me and permanently delete the original and any copy of any e-mail and any printout thereof."

 

[11...@comcast.net]

I'm with you as a Chief driver.  On downwind, feet up off the floor and on the pedals, heals off the brakes.  chief brakes are just too easy to push in a moment of excitement whereas champs brakes I have to reach back and fish for. 

[Richard Holcombe]

I like to wag the tail of the plane on short final to make sure I have "happy feet". Kind of like the short stab at the breaks while driving on icy roads to know just what you are dealing with for traction.

[Dale P. Jewett]

I agree as to feet positioning, EXCEPT that in my Stinson with toe brakes, the drill is Heels on the floor and out of reach of the toe brakes, then fish tail the rudder a bit on final to remind me of the need for being ready to respond to any possible swerve. I try to stay off the brakes until slowed down to taxi speed. My Clevelands are so powerful that they could easily put the plane on its nose. I even changed the brake linkage to require more pedal throw to start any braking effect. With the large rudder, the Stinson rarely needs any braking for effective directional control. Works well for me.

 

Dale Jewett

----- Original Message -----

From: 11...@comcast.net

To: aer...@westmont.edu

Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:47 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Tailwheel training

I'm with you as a Chief driver.  On downwind, feet up off the floor and on the pedals, heals off the brakes.  chief brakes are just too easy to push in a moment of excitement whereas champs brakes I have to reach back and fish for. 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark PETERSON" <mrpet...@msn.com>
To: "The Fearless Aeronca Aviators" <aer...@westmont.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 10:39:54 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Tailwheel training

I'm a tennis shoe flyer.   I get out of the oxfords to go fly because I like to feel the
pedal pressure on my foot.  We Chief pilots don't have the floodboard issue as much
because we fly with the luxurious carpeting on the floor.  BTW, my SOP is to have my
feet off the floor and on the pedals on landing and takeoff. I wouldn't even have the
heels close to the floor.  Usually on the 45 my checklist includes feet off floor, kick
the rudders a little, like a prize boxer bumping his fists together before a fight.

Mark

---