[f-AA] Rolling a Champ

[Mike Payton]

I have been flying aerobatics in a Pitts S1D for eight years. I would like to roll my Champ. Anybody ever done this and what should I expect.

Mike

NC83502

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[ssta...@cinci.rr.com]

I know wood doesn't fatigue, but those spars are 50 years old. I'd be careful. Having said that, in my earlier foolish years I looped my Chief, if you can call an egg shaped manuever a loop. I would dive to 110 mph at part throttle, pull up and push the throttle in and pull over the top, pulling the throttle and hold full back stick coming out the bottom at about 90-100 I think. Once at the top I thought I'd try to reduce the egg shape and pushed the wheel forward a bit. I realized I hadn't tightened my seat belt as tight as I should have.
Now I just drop into grass fields, smell the cow farts, enjoy the fall colors and the old girl is just as happy.

Steve Statkus NC9510E

[Roger Anderson]

I use to barrel roll an 85 hp Champ years ago.  It was slow and sluggish and wanted to fall out of the top usually.  I can only imagine an aileron roll being even  harder  to even get all the way around.  But mostly, the spars and the fuselage frame, etc were much younger then.  I don't even spin my Chief now thinking about the spars and all being about 65 years old now.  Unless the Champ is a recent rebuild of which you are familiar with all the components, I'd stick with the Pitts.   

[Rich Dugger]

A barrel roll is a 1 G maneuver I thought .

And I still would not do it in the old gal I fly.

 

And that wood was probably 50 years old ......When it was cut... THEN it was put in your airplane.

 

Rich

 

*~*~*~*~! *~*~*~*~ *~*
 If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

[Bob Moore]

A barrel roll is a 1 G maneuver I thought .

And I still would not do it in the old gal I fly.

Nope!

 

Barrel roll From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A barrel roll occurs when an object (usually an airplane or roller coaster) makes a complete rotation on its longitudinal axis while following a helical path, approximately maintaining its original direction. The G load is kept positive (but not constant) on the aircraft throughout the maneuver, commonly not more than 2-3 G.
In aviation, the maneuver includes a constant variation of attitude in all three axes, and at the midpoint (top) of the roll, the aircraft is flying inverted, with the nose pointing at a 90-degree angle ("sideways") to the general path of flight. The term "barrel roll" is frequently used, incorrectly, to refer to any roll by an airplane (see aileron roll), or to a helical roll in which the nose remains pointed generally along the flight path. In fact, the barrel roll is a specific and difficult maneuver; a combination of a roll and a loop. It is not used in aerobatic competition.

 

And No.....No matter what he said, Tex Johnston did NOT barrell roll the B-707 prototype.  :)

[Rob Murphy]

Mike,
It's just not worth it.....60 year old wings.
I'm 60 and you should hear me groan just getting out of bed!
Stick with the Pitts...that's what they are built for.
Respectfully,
Rob
N84334

[Ryan Lunde]

While I wouldn't advocate acro in a Champ, spins, loops and rolls impose only light Gs if done properly.  If a Champ is unsafe under such loads in the hands of a proficient acro pilot, I'd consider it unsafe for any normal operation in my hands.

Just my $.02.

-Ryan

---

Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 23:11:49 +0000
From: 11...@comcast.net
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Rolling a Champ

[j...@joea.com]

Rob and Mike,

Totally agree with the below. You want to do acro, do it in a plane designed for it.

Last thing we need are people flying upside down in a Aeronca and having something bad happen.

Joe A

[Mark McAtee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_khhzuFlE


May not have been a barrel roll....but roll it he did.

 
 
 
Mark 


 

---

From: Rmoo...@tampabay.rr.com
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 18:45:46 -0500

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Rolling a Champ

[Bob McGrath]

I have done lots of this stuff. In fact there were several years when I did nothing else. But as someone who has flown a Pitts a lot will know well, the real problem is when you screw up a maneuver and end up pulling more G's than anticipated. I have looped a J-3 once and a 7AC once -about 30 years ago when it was 30 years younger. Notice the "once". I also looped my PT19 once and slow rolled it once. Talk about stupid!! But it surely felt nice. That was before I found the rot in the center section.

[Tony Buttacavoli]

i used to loop a metal sparred Cub ,but gently, these days i agree with the consensus,the Citabria,and Pitts are bred for this, the Aeronca is for smelling the roses. --- On Wed, 2/2/11, Bob McGrath <drb...@vtc.net> wrote:

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

[Rich Dugger]

Appears he did.

 

And did I hear him say it was a 1 G maneuver?

In my earlier post I should have said when it is done   correctly it is a one G maneuver.

 

Rich

 

 

*~*~*~*~! *~*~*~*~ *~*
 If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

From: Mark McAtee

Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 5:56 PM

To: aer...@westmont.edu

[Roger Anderson]

Properly is the key word here.  And having done 8 years in a Pitts, the pilot would probably get the plane to act properly.   But probably is now the key word here.   The Champ doesn't really understand properly and will indeed have to be horsed around a bit probably......maybe.

 

 

Original Message -----

[n20...@provide.net]

I have a local friend rolled his Champ.  He has a Pitts and is a fantastic pilot and it went without incident.  That being said, his statement was that is was like rolling a pig and never did it again. 

This Champ had really old Razorback on it and after a hail storm we found several holes punched in the fabric.  At this point we removed the fabric which made the spar cracks visible.

Funny, the idea of looping a Champ/Chief/etc, while not something I do seems like it would be fairly natural.  It just seems like so much wing to swing around.  I however know nothing about acro, just a bomber guy.

Scott

---

Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 23:11:49 +0000
From: 11...@comcast.net
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Rolling a Champ

I use to barrel roll an 85 hp Champ years ago.  It was slow and sluggish and wanted to fall out of the top usually.  I can only imagine an aileron roll being even  harder  to even get all the way around.  But mostly, the spars and the fuselage frame, etc were much younger then.  I don't even spin my Chief now thinking about the spars and all being about 65 years old now.  Unless the Champ is a recent rebuild of which you are familiar with all the components, I'd stick with the Pitts.   

 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Payton" <mpa...@yahoo.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Wednesday, February 2, 2011 4:52:31 PM
Subject: [f-AA] Rolling a Champ

I have been flying aerobatics in a Pitts S1D for eight years. I would like to roll my Champ. Anybody ever done this and what should I expect.

Mike

NC83502


      
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_______________________________________________ Aeronca mailing list Aer...@westmont.edu http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

[n20...@provide.net]

This is an interesting point that I had not thought of until I saw what you wrote Tony.  I would never think twice about snap rolling a Citabria if I had the correct training but it could just as easily have spars that are almost 50 years old at this point depending on the airplane. 

The metal wing Super Cub would almost scare me more.  There is an airwortiness bulletin about the strut attach point.  Basically you cannot easily inspect the front side where it attaches to the spar and a banner tower had a separation due to a crack.

I guess none of these birds are getting any younger.

Scott

[Tony Markl]

Dear Mike
Consider that the aircraft was not designed to be acrobatic, that engineering knowledge of the time was limited, that all the parts of our airplanes are old and much used, and that any over stressing of aircraft structure will not become visible until some time in the future, perhaps with another owner who will have trusted those before him to operate the aircraft in legal and safe ways.

This OF has done formation acrobatics while serving in the USAF but will not do this in aircraft not designed for this purpose.

I have only been a pall bearer once - my friend designed and built his own aircraft and the wing broke off as he flew by his house.  He had a beautiful wife and two kids and if I had been single I would have courted them after a time.   Nuff said.

Just OMO as usual.

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Tony Markl]

How about everyone who has done acrobatics/or attempted them, in aircraft not designed or stressed for this purpose POSTS the N number so the rest of us do not accidently purchase that aircraft.???

Regards,
Tony Markl
www.tailwheel-and-fabric-spoken-here.com
"Fabric work done or taught at your location"

[Plain Carl]

A roll in a Champ is more of a "flop over" just like a loop is a "figure l".  Don't even think about it unless you have the experience/training to avoid anything negative.  Obviously a Champ is not a Pitts or even a Citabria.  My suggestion is to get some dual in a 7ECA and practice aerobatics at about 75% power.  Most aerobatics can be done in a Champ at less than +2G but energy control is an absolute must. Gentle is the bywword   PC --- On Wed, 2/2/11, Mike Payton <mpa...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Mike Payton <mpa...@yahoo.com> Subject: [f-AA] Rolling a Champ To: aer...@westmont.edu

[Roger Anderson]

Actually, that's not quite right.  Your point is well taken....however, the Champs were not restricted from any manuvers at the time if operated within the design limits, which others have pointed out would permit "correctly" performed loops, rolls, etc.  So, I suspect that most of them have been upside down at one time or another in their lives, but most many, many years ago when their components were much, much newer. 

 

 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Markl" <ma...@intercom.net>
To: aer...@westmont.edu

Sent: Wednesday, February 2, 2011 8:52:21 PM
Subject: Re: [f-AA] was Rolling a Champ

[CaptG...@aol.com]

I know of some  DC-9-14's that were unofficially snap rolled, but not intentional. Think they were all deported to the third world airforce. BTW--they had an 80 degree per second roll rate according to Douglas..

 

Doug

[Plain Carl]

There are questions that we all have to answer for ourselves.  I'm hard on 73 years old and certainly not as bullet proof as I was at 15 when I first looped a Champ, but I would not hesitate to do it tomorrow if the high temp were not to be 39F.  Rolls are a bit different and I just do not get much joy out of them so I don't do them often.  There are a number of provisios, the main one is to have a known quality spar set and lower fuselage longerons.  Even in my senior condition I am confident doing low positive G aerobatics.  One of the most satisfying things that I do is to loop around a small summer cumulus cloud.  I come back to the ground ten years younger. PC --- On Thu, 2/3/11, Tony Buttacavoli <aeron...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Bob McGrath]

Carl, I've got you "out-aged" by 4 years and I can tell you that after LOTS of hours of aerobatics 30 years ago I have NO desire for anything except straight and level today!! Old memories are better than new panic!!

Bob

[Plain Carl]

I've done aerobatics for over 55 years and have never exceeded the design parameters of those aircraft I've flown if one excepts the accidental tail slide I inadvertantly entered in a 300 Stearman.  Stresses imposed on aircraft during mild aerobatics are more often less than those imposed on a hard landing.  I used to fly aerobatics in my Citabria with one eye on the G meter and limted the push/pull/kick to 2.5G.  On a couple of occasions I've ended up with an airplane that could not be reused and am lucky that lessons learned through aerobatic training saved my personal bacon and precious bodily fluids.  Once when I ended up peeling airplane parts off my hide was just survival based on God's grace PC --- On Thu, 2/3/11, Tony Markl <ma...@intercom.net> wrote:

From: Tony Markl <ma...@intercom.net> Subject: Re: [f-AA] was Rolling a Champ To: aer...@westmont.edu

[Richard Jeffryes]

Mine had a 55 gallon belly tank and was used as a duster for years. Life for her is better now.

 

Richard in Creswell, watching the Hardieplank going on

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[ryan...@gci.net]

Hi Mike,

Your Champ is probably @ 65 years old. There are no federal
regulations to require any A&P/IA to x-ray your fuselage components or
do an eddy-current to determine tube cross-section degredation or weld
integrity to maintain your "airworthiness". The internal condition of
most Champ fuselage tubes is a guess, at best. The Aeronca, Champion,
Bellanca models that were "approved" for aerobatic maneuvers had a
placard in plain view of the pilot. Your airplane was not approved under
its type certification under CAR 3 for aerobatic maneuvers. Some may
argue these maneuvers aren't prohibited either. Frankly, the FAA doesn't
buy that argument and neither does the NTSB.
I'm going thru Principal Inspector training right now in
Anchorge. Part of our training today covered fatal and serious injury
accidents in Alaska. The largest percentage of accidents in Alaska in
the last 5 years have been intentional operation of aircraft outside of
their design......overloading, aft CG and unapproved maneuvers.
You are betting your life! You are betting on the structural
integrity of ancient tubing, spar attach fittings, spar carry-thru
(center sections), tail braces, engine mounts, spars.....you get the
idea.
Let the long blades of un-mown, dew-laden grass entice your old
girls tires into an unfelt landing be your secret pleasure. Leave the
upside-down, g-loaded, barf bag flying to the fuel injected,
fire-belching, earsplittenloudenboomers designed for that purpose. About
15 minutes in a Pitts S2 sent me home crying for my Mommy!

Just my 2 cents worth.....

Gregg Horrell

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 1:52 PM , Mike Payton wrote:

> I have been flying aerobatics in a Pitts S1D for eight years. I would
> like to roll my Champ. Anybody ever done this and what should I
> expect.
>
> Mike
>
> NC83502
>
>

[ginny wilken]

My old Champ teacher at KOAK is 90 now, and he loves to go up with my ladyfriend, around 70, and do barrel rolls and loops in his 85hp. Both of these folks are an inspiration.

ginny

On Feb 2, 2011, at 7:35 PM, Plain Carl wrote:

.... Even in my senior condition I am confident doing low positive G aerobatics.  One of the most satisfying things that I do is to loop around a small summer cumulus cloud.  I come back to the ground ten years younger. PC Aeronca mailing list

Aer...@westmont.edu
http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

All stunts performed without a net!

[Louis and Sabrina]

Someone I know real well got an aerobatic lesson in a Great Lakes when he
was a teenager then immediately tried rolling a Citabria. Fell out of the
roll and built up more speed and g-forces pulling out of the split-s than
one would want to think about...not a good way to find out just exactly how
strong a plane is.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Rob Murphy" <murp...@charter.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 2:50 PM
To: <aer...@westmont.edu>

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Rolling a Champ

> Mike,

[Tony Buttacavoli]

those ailerons were fighter light on the short bodies,not so much with the 30s.. --- On Wed, 2/2/11, CaptG...@aol.com <CaptG...@aol.com> wrote:

From: CaptG...@aol.com <CaptG...@aol.com> Subject: Re: [f-AA] was Rolling a Champ

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

[tt...@aol.com]

First, there has been reference in this email thread of 50 year old spars.   1946 was more like 65 years ago.  

Second, we are the caretakers of these old Aeroncas.  We are not the frist caretaker and hopefully not the last.   Think of it this way.   Some of us were not born when these airplanes were built.   And future Aeronca caretakers are yet to be born. .  It is likely that the summer of 2026 some 15-year old kid will solo in an Aeronca.   Please take good care of these Aeroncas so that future caretakers will enjoy them. 

 

Todd

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Markl <ma...@intercom.net>

To: aeronca <aer...@westmont.edu>
Sent: Wed, Feb 2, 2011 9:49 pm
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Rolling a Champ

[Bob McGrath]

In November of '69 I went to Texas and took Duane Cole's 10 hour aerobatic
course. I learned a lot and had many years of really fun flying thereafter.
But the strongest impression that I came away with was related to G's: Near
the end of the last hour of the course, Duane said, "want to see what it is
like being an airshow pilot?" I, of course, said, "yeah". He took the
airplane and started the "airshow", going nonstop from maneuver to maneuver.
I was COMPLETELY disoriented and stayed that way until he rolled our
straight and level. BUT the one thing I remember most clearly about the
whole thing was that I never felt any high G's. Just smoothly going from one
maneuver to the next. My guess would be that he never pulled more than 2 G's
at any time.
I also remember his telling me that I did really well and seemed to have a
natural feel for aerobatics. I asked him if he thought I could learn to be
an airshow pilot. He said, ":do you have to work for a living?" When I
said, "yes" he said "Forget it. You don't have time to practice."

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Louis and Sabrina" <lkn...@ptialaska.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:34 PM