[f-AA] Max Chief Crosswind?

[Roger Anderson]

What is the maximum 90 degree crosswind speed you feel ok landing you Chief  (or Champ, I guess) in?   I'm not talking like an emergency and you must land without any other choice.  I'm talking like what Aeronca must have said, "hey, this is it...no more crosswind than this".   Unfortunately, I don't know that they ever said that for public consumption though.  Now, I'm talking 90 degrees wind.  I realize that a quartering headwind can be of greater volume and give you the same crosswind component.  But even though the wind volume is greater, that same component isn't as bad for landing in as it becomes more of a headwind also.  That's because your ground speed is going to be slower under those circumstances, and slow ground speed at touchdown is what easier handling is all about.   I did do 1+15 today (wind calm).  Wanted to fly to a Saturday breakfast yesterday morning.  Temp was 21 with wind chill 13.  I just said no.   Today was in the 40s.   roger

[Mark Peterson]

If you take a C152 max crosswind and use the math to apply to the stall speed of the Chief you are going to be looking at 10 to 12 mph, if I remember rightly.    NTSB says there are ground loops in the Chief in even 6 mph crosswinds.   BUT, you're the pilot and people routinely landing in far more brisk conditions.    It is completely up to the pilot level of comfort and currency.  When I started with the Chief I set 6 mph as the limit.   Then up to 8 mph.   Gusts are different.   I just stayed on the ground with a direct 8 to 12 mph Xwind at Harvey since I hadn't flown in six weeks and didn't feel comfortable with that.   I'm home every six weeks for a week at a time, so I want conditions to match my confidence level and if I don't have to fly I don't.   I have another trip in a while and I can wait.  I know I could have, but I would feel more confident in a more direct wind down the runway, so I stayed on the ground.

SO, it's what you feel like doing.   I think above 10 mph you are working a bit more.   Work your way up the ladder.   When you feel a little uncomfortable, that's your limit for your level of currency for that amount of hours....a little time with a CFI can help you get comfortable, but choose your CFI very wisely..

IMHO.

"Cherish the Minnesota State Fair. Wherever you find beauty and simplicity and truth, know that there is a committee somewhere planning to improve it - don't let them do it."  
- Garrison Keillor

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From: Aeronca <aeronca...@westmont.edu> on behalf of Roger Anderson <11...@comcast.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 12:11 PM
To: Aeronca List, aeronca
Subject: [f-AA] Max Chief Crosswind?

 

[Roger Anderson]

Hey, thanks Mark.   I'm with you in thinking 10 direct is about it.   I came back the other day and the wind had snuck up to 90 degrees at 13 kts while I was out.   Now, I did have a diagonal turnoff available that ran out onto the ramp, which with the additional distance of runway width would have given me plenty of landing room to use and cut the component down to very little, plus the benefit of now a good headwind component.   However, I thought I'd give the 13 kts one try anyhow just to see if the Chief had enough control deflection to counter that.   I think I had just about reached max capability of the Chief to keep everything aligned and still land, very wing low.   Unfortunately, just as I was into a bit of the flare, I went into a wind void suddenly and the plane shot off in the direction of the bank.   I had to do a quick correction then to not drift off the runway edge.   Landed ok.    But....I'm thinking 13 kt is the absolutely max, and even that is marginal.    Reference a qualified CFI for a Chief or Champ,  that's a tough one.   No CFIs around  generally anymore that are any better than most of us already are.   And I'm a 50 year CFI with several thousand Aeronca type hours.   And I don't even feel that qualified these days.   roger

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From: "Mark Peterson" <mrpet...@msn.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 2:25:09 PM
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Max Chief Crosswind?

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[Roger Anderson]

And I might add.....get that stick or wheel ALL THE WAY BACK in your lap and keep it there...firmly.   It is so easy in the excitement of a thrilling landing to release a little of that back pressure without realizing it and let the tail get light again.   Glue the tail wheel down to the ground and there's a good chance you will not lose control.   roger

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From: "Roger Anderson" <11...@comcast.net>
To: "Aeronca List, aeronca" <aer...@westmont.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 2:44:03 PM

[Richard Murray]

If memory serves, the maximum crosswind component an aircraft can handle is a function of rudder authority. In other words with the upwind pedal fully depressed you can no longer keep the longtitudinal axis aligned with the centerline.

Don't want to find out exactly what the value is so 12mph works real well as a no go point unless I haven't flown in awhile and then I lower it.

[Roger Anderson]

Hey Richard.   You're right as rainwater on that rudder thing.   And it looks like everyone is pretty much falling into about the same speed range reference max.    I always feel so insecure though without validation from others.   And....I'm feeling better now.   I think a small George Dickle Barrel Select (George Dickel is right down the road from us) will help me feel even more comfortable.   I'm not a whiskey guy.  Never liked the stuff.  But a USAir retired friend of mine is, loves George Dickel, and gave me a sip of this.  Wow!   So good.   If you sip occasionally, I do recommend their Barrel Select.    Now......back to regular programing..........    roger

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From: "Richard Murray" <murra...@gmail.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 3:17:23 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Max Chief Crosswind?

If memory serves, the maximum crosswind component an aircraft can handle is a function of rudder authority. In other words with the upwind pedal fully depressed you can no longer keep the longtitudinal axis aligned with the centerline.

Don't want to find out exactly what the value is so 12mph works real well as a no go point unless I haven't flown in awhile and then I lower it.

[Jerry Eichenberger]

When I had my FBO and a Champ in our rental fleet, our limit was 10 knots in any direction.  That worked well.

 

Jerry A. Eichenberger

Eichenberger & Associates

6037 Frantz Rd., Ste. 107

Dublin, OH 43017

Voice:  614-798-1600

Fax:  614-798-1620

Website : www.ehlawyers.com

Email:  jeiche...@ehlawyers.com

 

From: Aeronca [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Anderson

Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 4:26 PM
To: Aeronca List, aeronca

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Max Chief Crosswind?

[Dean Owen]

I've enjoyed the comments regarding X-wind landings.....Jerry's comments rang very true for me....not from the standpoint of safety so much as for comfort....I just don't like bouncing around in bumpy air which often accompanies winds above 10 kts......My Champ is a kite and I fly it for relaxation.....on bumpy/windy days I stay on the ground and relax......handling a Champ in the wind can certainly be done but it also can be a lot of work and not that enjoyable.  Of course, there are times......

Had to make a rather fast departure from Key West years ago in a C-140......Tropical depression developed unexpectedly and everyone was moving planes up to the mainland in a hurry....as I recall the runway was 9/27 and the winds were 180 at 22 gusting to 29......could not even taxi so my diving buddy who was in the right seat had to walk my wing tip all the way to departure point.....took off kittywampus (diagonally).....hopping and jumping like a drunk kangaroo.....got off and turned about 40 degrees off runway heading on the climb out.........I still think about that one and am so glad that I was not trying to land that day........I guess one does what one must do....but at my age I like comfort and relaxation far more than trying to prove the size of my.......well, in Spanish they might be referred to as testiculos.......

Dean

 

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."  Antoine de Saint- Exupery.

Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first and the lesson afterwards. Vernon Law

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From: Jerry Eichenberger <JEiche...@ehlawyers.com>
To: "aer...@westmont.edu" <aer...@westmont.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 4:30 PM

[danv...@gmail.com]

There is a formula that is generally accepted for determining the " cross wind capability " of small aircraft- 

, let’s rst take a look at crosswind components. Most all airplanes built in the 1940s and even into the 1950s didn’t publish a crosswind component limit. Thus, we’ll turn to the standard method for identifying this number. e crosswind component for most any given standard cat- egory airplane is: Crosswind component = .2VSO or more simply 20 percent of stall speed. is number provides us with the maximum crosswind at 90 degrees to the runway. 

(I lifted the above from an article from an old issue of Vintage Aircraft magazine.)

I used it when I first started flying a Champ. I stalled the airplane in slow flight in approach angle of attack several times and noted the indicated airspeed to determine Vso.  This yields what seems to be ridiculously low crosswind component of about 8 knots. But I think it's a good way to help a beginner to decide where to draw a personal limit for managing crosswinds. 

Dan v

[John Rodkey]

Many different ways to look at this. At least two perspectives are what is the plane vs pilot capability. The plane is about maxed out at 12 knots direct and above that you need to use tricks to reduce crosswind component.  The surface also makes a difference. Grass surface is more forgiving of sideways drift than pavement. 

Pilot capability varies with experience and currency. 10kt is probably a good limit for high experience moderate currency. Low currency or experience puts you back at 5 kt or even less. Maybe 12 kt for high experience high currency. 

Above 7 or so ok xwind I do wheel landings on pavement but this is hotly debated. If the wind is strong enough to prevent reliable ground handling, call for wing walkers. If the wind is over 20, consider landing into the wind regardless of runway direction. 

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Do your best to avoid desperate times. 

John

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John (poobah) Rodkey - N9361E 11AC at Goleta

[Scott Johnson]

Really great points from everyone regarding how current you are, total time, tailwheel time etc. 

I have landed the Champ with 18 across and it's doable but very busy. Then comes the hard part of trying to get the airplane turned to go back to the hangar. FWIW, I think the Sedan could have handled much more which surprised me with that big tail. 

Scott

[Jerry Eichenberger]

I like the last two paragraphs. 

Sent from my iPhone

[Jerry Eichenberger]

I don't do wheel landings in small t/w airplanes. Beech 18 and DC-3 are another story, but not a Champ. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 5, 2017, at 5:50 PM, "John Rodkey" <pooba...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Ken McClelland]

You mentioned the cold. I think I found my bottom line min on Saturday - I am training in my Allegro ((Chief is still in many many pieces ). My time, the instructors time and general flying conditions were right - but the temp said 15 and I don't want to know what the wind chill was at 9am. The instructor was game so I set about pre-heating and convincing the hanger doors to open. We managed 1.3 hours for the lesson and another bit of time pre briefing and debriefing while warming up in his truck. I am anxious to get my license and it was a good experience, not to mention I now know every air leak that needs attention but next time I might just have to pass :) 

Ken

PS - it in no way helped that we got in wearing Carhardt coats and decided that we just didn't fit like that so had to put those in luggage and use sweatshirts.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 5, 2017, at 3:11 PM, Roger Anderson <11...@comcast.net> wrote:

What is the maximum 90 degree crosswind speed you feel ok landing you Chief  (or Champ, I guess) in?   I'm not talking like an emergency and you must land without any other choice.  I'm talking like what Aeronca must have said, "hey, this is it...no more crosswind than this".   Unfortunately, I don't know that they ever said that for public consumption though.  Now, I'm talking 90 degrees wind.  I realize that a quartering headwind can be of greater volume and give you the same crosswind component.  But even though the wind volume is greater, that same component isn't as bad for landing in as it becomes more of a headwind also.  That's because your ground speed is going to be slower under those circumstances, and slow ground speed at touchdown is what easier handling is all about.   I did do 1+15 today (wind calm).  Wanted to fly to a Saturday breakfast yesterday morning.  Temp was 21 with wind chill 13.  I just said no.   Today was in the 40s.   roger

_______________________________________________

[Dean Owen]

Dan,

Thank you for your post....Interesting rule of thumb (ROT)......conservative ROTs are good friends.

Dean

 

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."  Antoine de Saint- Exupery.

Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first and the lesson afterwards. Vernon Law

Call

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From: "danv...@gmail.com" <danv...@gmail.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 5:17 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Max Chief Crosswind?