[f-AA] Control stick questions

[D]

Howdy,

 

Flying today I found that the stick is literally “in my gut” all the way back.  And I’m pretty skinny.  How can I set the stick so the travel starts and stops about 2 inches forward?

 

And, on that subject, what about removing the rear stick?  I want to take my 6 yr old grandson flying, but am not sure he’d be able to keep his hands off the stick.  It looks like one bolt attaches it to the  ???????, but is there any other considerations?

 

Thanks!

Don

’47  L16 A  7 BCM  N6404C

[Roger Anderson]

Hey Don.  As I recall, every Champ I've ever flown, the stick does indeed pull all the way back against the seat (I think).  I do know for sure, my old time instructor was forever yelling, while I was fully flaring for the landing, "get the stick in your lap, get the stick in your lap".  Which, by the way, is the very most important thing a taildragger person can do to insure control on the ground as the wheels make ground contact.    And.....a friend of mine almost wrecked his Champ while giving a ride to a non pilot type passenger in the back seat.  The passenger, who was kinda big, had crossed his legs which prevented the stick from pulling anywhere near full back during my friends attempted landing.   Realizing that doesn't do anything about answering your question...........................   roger

---

From: "D" <whites...@gmail.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2017 12:21:56 AM
Subject: [f-AA] Control stick questions

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Aeronca mailing list
Aer...@westmont.edu
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[Doug Rounds]

Hate to interrupt, but that is the way they were built--before, during the depression and right after World War 2 everyone weighed 140-150 pounds and for some years later.--ask one why. I lived it and there are lessons there that everyone today should have to learn. I won't talk about history again as they don't even teach those years in school anymore..I was born in 1934 during the Great Depression and later grew up during World War 2, then --Korea-my war--ad infintum.  Signing Off to enjoy what old age and remembered history I survived is left. Todays kids don't know what they don't know and schools aren't teaching it. There are no free lunches in the world regardless of what you read or hear. I witnessed it in over 70 years & 30000+ hours flying (1st lesson 1946) in this country & elsewhere, It has been a good ride, but all must come to an end.   End of rambling  post in recognition time change day.  Time get the fishing pole out.  Doug

[danv...@gmail.com]

On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 9:26 AM, Roger Anderson <11...@comcast.net

Don

I pulled out my 7AC manual today and looked at the "blow up" drawing of the aileron and rudder control system. 

The front and rear sticks have the same part number. And the sockets also are identical. There is no obvious way to adjust either of them to alter the front/back control limits. Neither is there a convenient way to move the seat locations. 

So it seems you are looking at a modification in the type design. And that entails the services of an IA, lots of money, and sympathetic and willing FAA FSDO. 

I remember an instance involving a Citabria that was returned to service with the front and rear control sticks swapped after a major overhaul and fabric recovery. The owner could barely get enough nose up pitch to land. I think the Citabria design calls for different shaped sticks which will go into either the front or rear fitting. I'm assuming that your L16 is the same as the Champ. But if it is designed like the Citabria, it makes sense to check your sticks. I'm thinking you are the guy who bought Sam's L16 and I know it was recently overhauled. 

I'll not offer any advice on how to modify your grandkid's airplane ride behavior or backseat environment. It's risky enough to comment on technical or aviation matters on this list. Last week was a rough one. We couldn't agree on torque vs degree or crush gasket orientation. And you expect us to opine wisely on nature vs nurture??

Dan v

 

Flying today I found that the stick is literally “in my gut” all the way back.  And I’m pretty skinny.  How can I set the stick so the travel starts and stops about 2 inches forward?

 

And, on that subject, what about removing the rear stick?  I want to take my 6 yr old grandson flying, but am not sure he’d be able to keep his hands off the stick.  It looks like one bolt attaches it to the  ???????, but is there any other considerations?

 

Thanks!

Don

’47  L16 A  7 BCM  N6404C

_______________________________________________.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

[Doug Rounds]

Can't help it--oldtimers always took out the rear stick and told the passenger (regardless of age) to keep their hand off everything else or else. Just look out the window and enjoy your flight. These are not politically correct airplanes.  A few insults in the cockpit never hurt a thing--that is the way newbie /airlines pilots used to learn or quit... Airplane cockpits are not politically correct for safety reasons. In fact when I learned the used term SOB wasn't used as a common corrective toned down verbal Sunday Church sentence.. And that was part of my verbal years of being instructed  and later instruction of pilots-you could always quit if offended. I learned much real language and cockpit procedure from the WWII pilots, They were the greatest.   "You don't want an easily offended one with you when you have an emergency."  "Political Correctness" usually adds to the confusion. Excuse my post-- daily light saving time switch over always did confuse my departures and arrivals... Doug

[Bob Jacoby]

Hi Don,

I had the same problem on my Champ - the control stick was constantly hitting me in the gut, and the seat belts kept shrinking (assuming that it was the sun shining on the fabric).  However, given that you've already stated that you're "pretty skinny", I'm guessing that my problem is different from yours!

Regardless, within that past two weeks I've replaced my elevator cables, adjusted the elevator stops, and replaced control sticks, torque tube, control stick connecting tube and the cast control stick sockets and related bearings - I've got a couple comments and suggestions:

1) If something has changed and the sticks now seem to travel further back than you remember, your first concern should be to make sure the aircraft is safe:

  (a) The down elevator turnbuckle is located at the base of the rear control stick.  It is visible if you open the "V" in the control stick boot (part # 1-2445) -  you should not see more that three threads exposed on the turnbuckle ends (known as cable eyes (AN170) and forks (AN161).  Naturally the turnbuckles should be safety wired as per AC43.13-1B (available online in pdf format).  My personal preference for safety wiring control turnbuckles is a double spiral - there is an EAA video available on the procedure.

  (b) The up elevator turnbuckle should be visible through the cable opening in the large triangular sheet metal cover behind the rear seat - threre is a long oval-shaped hole - again no more than three threads should be visible on any of the turnbuckle ends and it is fine if the threads are completely buried inside the barrel.

  (c) there is an elevator horn cover located on the aft section of the vertical stabilizer in front of the rudder - you should remove it and inspect the elevator cables and horn assembly.  You don't want to see any broken strands, worn Clevis screws, missing cotter pins, or any type of binding.

Assuming that all of the above is fine, I would consider the elevator control and related items safe to fly (however, that question is really up to an A&P and the PIC of course).

2) Regarding removing the rear stick - I don't have a huge amount of experience but as of this most recent work on my flying Champ (I've to parts for more Champs), I've worked on 8 different control sticks (the socket #2-705 and the stick #4-573).  From my limited experience, the sticks do NOT come out of the sockets voluntarily - even if you remove the bolt at the base of the stick - I would not discourage you from giving it a try, but if it doesn't happen easily, they are probably stuck in there pretty good - removal of the stick from the socket is a fairly involved and delicate operation involving heating and cooling cycles, Kroil (my favorite penetrating oil) and special fixtures that I've built to remove the sticks without damaging the sockets (which can still be purchased new from American Champion, but I think they're around $275 each).  Naturally, any work related to removing the sticks from the sockets involves removing the interior (side panels, seats, floor, etc.).  Again, unscrew the nut at the base of the stick, remove the bolt and give it a tug - but if that simple attempt fails, I'd simply use duct tape on your grandson's hands (kidding of course).

3) The sticks ARE adjustable - I just painstakingly adjusted mine and they are perfect - in terms of my personal taste.  The easiest way to check whether the stick is properly adjusted is to use a framing square on the floor and the uppermost portion of the stick (the straight portion at the top of the stick where your hand is placed).  It should be perpendicular to the floor when the elevators in straight in line with the horizontal stabilizer.  My seats were out when I did this adjustment, but you can probably work around the items installed in the cabin to see how close your stick is to proper adjustment.  NOTE: I have not found the stick adjustment procedure documented anywhere, but it was logical AND my Champ now flys better than ever - my first landing was softer than a butterfly landing with sore feet!

If the stick handle is not perpendicular to the floor when the elevators are in a straight-and-level configuration, you loosen one turnbuckle and tighten the other until the stick is in its desired position.  Once in the correct position, both turnbuckles are tightened to the recommended tension in the manual - which from memory is 45# - 60# (or maybe 65#).  This tension is set with the elevators resting against the bottom elevator stop.  You'll note that when the cables are in use that the cable with the tension on it will increase in tension to about 60+#s and the slack cable will reduce in tension to about 20# - all assuming that the minimum tension of 45# was put on the cables with the elevator resting against the down stop on the elevator horn.  I explain all this because to some, even 45# of tension sounds high.  However, it is not high when the dynamic loading is considered - 45# is probably the minimum in order to insure reasonable tension on the slack cable - again, mine read around 60# on the up elevator cable and around 20# on the slack down elevator cable after setting the both to approximately 45# at rest.  I use a tensiometer for all the measurement and try to take the readings in an open are of cable.  Most importantly, after all this adjustment is done, there cannot be more than three threads sticking out of any turnbuckle barrel.

There is another "sanity check" regarding the range of motion on the stick:

  (a) verify that the elevator stops are in the correct position (item #6 below) - the up elevator is supposed to be from 23 - 25 degrees.  I set mine at 25 degrees, but would probably set it to 23 or 24 if I did the job again, because it is extremely unlikely that I've ever use that much travel.  The down travel is considerably less, but I don't recall the number.

  (b) once the endpoints of travel are correct, sit in the aircraft and test three positions - all the way back, all the way forward, and level flight - if you're happy with all three (and don't run into any obstructions), you're probably fine - Id test from both the front and back seats.  I've be very surprised if a comfortable and safe adjustment was very far off the framing square method outlined above.

4) Extremely unlikely, but check to make sure the correct sticks are installed in your plane - they should look like the ones in diagram 4-573 (aeroncamuseum.org - worth the price of membership).  Given how tough they are to remove, I'd be surprised if they are not original.

5) The other thing worth noting, is that proper cable length is critical to having the correct amount of adjustment at the turnbuckle - I replaced my upper and lower elevator cables so I didn't have any problems with too much, or too little travel on the turnbuckles.

6) Check the settings on your elevator stops (again under the cover on the rear of the vertical stabilizer).  Mine where out of adjustment and didn't look like they had been touched in 30 or 40 years.  I have a digital protractor from Harbor Freight and it worked fine - the up and down travel limits are in the manual.

7) Check to make sure that the sticks are not simply hitting against overstuffed bottom cushions - the original cushions were fairly Spartan and can still be purchased on eBay (not PMA'd, but probably fine).  Mine are overstuffed, but don't hit anything.  We just finished a Super Cub where the stick hits the overstuffed expensive new leather seats - bummer!

Re-reading this, I'd: (i) make sure that its all safe, (ii) check the elevator stops for proper adjustment - my buddy's Champ didn't have ANY stops installed!, (iii) check the obvious - like the wrong stick installed or overstuffed cushions and then decide if the situation warrants the effort to fully adjust the system - it was a fairly big job on my Champ, but I'm working on my A&P under the supervision of an A&P/IA so other than parts and down time, it's fairly reasonable for me to make all these improvements.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

---

From: Roger Anderson <11...@comcast.net>
To: "Aeronca List, aeronca" <aer...@westmont.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2017 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Control stick questions

[Tom Boyle]

Humph.  Some people just don't age well<G>

Tom

Virus-free. www.avg.com

[Tom Boyle]

Just build one with a bend in it.  Make sure it clears everything and go with it.

Virus-free. www.avg.com

[Rainbow Flying Service]

You can adjust the elevator control cables so that the stick travels farther forward before it hits the stop. It will then not travel as far aft when it hits the stop.           -------Original Message-------

From: Doug Rounds Date: 3/12/2017 12:20:54 PM To: Aer...@westmont.edu Subject: Re: [f-AA] Control stick questions

_______________________________________________ Aeronca mailing list Aer...@westmont.edu http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

[j...@joea.com]

Doug,

And there are still a lot of us out here these days who wish it was like it was in the old days...

Joe A

On 12 Mar 2017 at 20:17, Doug Rounds wrote:

>
> Can't help it--oldtimers always took out the rear stick and told the passenger (regardless of age) to
> keep their hand off everything else or else. Just look out the window and enjoy your flight. These
> are not politically correct airplanes.  A few insults in the cockpit never hurt a thing--that is the way
> newbie /airlines pilots used to learn or quit... Airplane cockpits are not politically correct for safety
> reasons. In fact when I learned the used term SOB wasn't used as a common corrective toned
> down verbal Sunday Church sentence.. And that was part of my verbal years of being instructed 
> and later instruction of pilots-you could always quit if offended. I learned much real language and
> cockpit procedure from the WWII pilots, They were the greatest.   "You don't want an easily
> offended one with you when you have an emergency."  "Political Correctness" usually adds to the
> confusion. Excuse my post-- daily light saving time switch over always did confuse my departures
> and arrivals... Doug

[Ian Harvie]

Joe and Doug, couldn't agree more.

Ian

[psa...@graffitis.com]

True, the limiting factor then becomes the rear stick hitting the back of the front seat, especially if it has a pocket with crap in it.

BTDT

Paul

----------------------------------------
From: "Rainbow Flying Service" <ro...@qosi.net>
Sent: 12 March 2017 20:54
To: "aer...@westmont.edu (aer...@westmont.edu)" <aer...@westmont.edu>

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Control stick questions

FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 ;

You can adjust the elevator control cables so that the stick travels farther forward before it hits the stop. It will then not travel as far aft when it hits the stop. -------Original Message------- From: Doug Rounds Date: 3/12/2017 12:20:54 PM To: Aer...@westmont.edu Subject: Re: [f-AA] Control stick questions Hate to interrupt, but that is the way they were built--before, during the depression and right after World War 2 everyone weighed 140-150 pounds and for some years later.--ask one why. I lived it and there are lessons there that everyone today should have to learn. I won't talk about history again as they don't even teach those years in school anymore..I was born in 1934 during the Great Depression and later grew up during World War 2, then --Korea-my war--ad infintum. Signing Off to enjoy what old age and remembered history I survived is left. Todays kids don't know what they don't know and schools aren't teaching it. There are no free lunches in the world regardless of what you read or hear. I witnessed it in over 70 years & 30000+ hours flying (1st lesson 1946) in this country & elsewhere, It has been a good ride, but all must come to an end. End of rambling post in recognition time change day. Time get the fishing pole out. Doug

On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 9:26 AM, Roger Anderson <11...@comcast.net> wrote:
Hey Don. As I recall, every Champ I've ever flown, the stick does indeed pull all the way back against the seat (I think). I do know for sure, my old time instructor was forever yelling, while I was fully flaring for the landing, "get the stick in your lap, get the stick in your lap". Which, by the way, is the very most important thing a taildragger person can do to insure control on the ground as the wheels make ground contact. And.....a friend of mine almost wrecked his Champ while giving a ride to a non pilot type passenger in the back seat. The passenger, who was kinda big, had crossed his legs which prevented the stick from pulling anywhere near full back during my friends attempted landing. Realizing that doesn't do anything about answering your question........................... roger

----------------------------------------

From: "D" <whites...@gmail.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2017 12:21:56 AM
Subject: [f-AA] Control stick questions

Howdy, Flying today I found that the stick is literally "in my gut" all the way back. And I'm pretty skinny. How can I set the stick so the travel starts and stops about 2 inches forward? And, on that subject, what about removing the rear stick? I want to take my 6 yr old grandson flying, but am not sure he'd be able to keep his hands off the stick. It looks like one bolt attaches it to the ???????, but is there any other considerations? Thanks!
Don '47 L16 A 7 BCM N6404C

_______________________________________________
Aeronca mailing list
Aer...@westmont.edu
http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

_______________________________________________
Aeronca mailing list
Aer...@westmont.edu
http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

----------------------------------------

[Don Whiteside]

Thanks Everyone.  Especially Bob- what a great set of instructions!  My buddy A&P and I will look more closely at this. 

BTW, both sticks, front and rear, seem like they'll come out easily.  Because Sam (previous owner) had cracked the frame and it was stripped completely to be welded and put on a jig, they were r and r'ed in the last 50 hrs, or so.  I can feel a very small tad of slack between the stick and control socket.

Given the options, a new reshaped front stick might be the best choice.  If I can't independently adjust the front stick (leaving the rear travel the same), I won't be able to get it forward enough for my purposes.

And, just FYI, I'm 6'2", 175 lbs, with a 33" waist.  It's just hard to have any "right and left" stick control when the stick is so far back.

Really appreciate the community wisdom of this board!
Don