[f-AA] FW: [Stinson] Re: MedXPress

[Cy Galley]

FYI

 

From: Sti...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Sti...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Rice
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 12:59 PM
To: Sti...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Stinson] Re: MedXPress

 

 

They are pulling that same crap hear in AK the funny thing is that at this point it seems to be mostly just BS.  A friend of mine has had a 135 aplication in process for a couple years now and they keep trying to get him to write a letter to our various representitives saying they pleading for a bigger budget for the FAA.  However when you look at the numbers it a hoax, their budget has almost doubled in the last 5 years and the number of opperators continues to drop. They basically are using more and more money to do less and less.  I was at a local airport a few days ago and saw an official looking note in a clear plastic bag tied to the door handle of a Stinson.  So beeing nosey (and I know the airplanes owner) I looked to see what it was. Turns out it was a notice from the FAA that the aircraft was unairworthy due to it's registration being expired!!! So they dont have the staff or resorces to process new businesses applications, but they can burn $4.35 a gallon gas and who know's how much time driving arround to airports and looking up tail numbers.  The FAA's budget crisis is a scam!!

 

Sorry to vent about the FAA on the Stinson forum, but the notice was tied to a Stinson. LoL

 

Sean Rice

N9805K  

 

From: Robert Hadow <robert...@nccuthbert.com>
To: Stinson Webserve <sti...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 4:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Stinson] Re: MedXPress

 

Hello Sean --

It is happening. Our FSDO is not processing any new applications for air agency certificates: Part 141 and 142 schools, 145 repair stations, 135 charter ops, and the like.

They claim they have neither the staff nor funding.

Robert

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

From: Sean Rice <akstin...@yahoo.com>

Sender: Sti...@yahoogroups.com

Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 23:08:34 -0700 (PDT)

To: Sti...@yahoogroups.com<Sti...@yahoogroups.com>

ReplyTo: Sti...@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [Stinson] Re: MedXPress

 

 

Will the madnes ever stop?? The one thing I am looking forward to in regards to the crumbling economic status of the US is that when it all falls apart the FAA will loose thier funding!! LoL 

 

From: Robert Hadow <robert...@nccuthbert.com>
To: Stinson Webserve <sti...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Stinson] Re: MedXPress

 

Hello all – If you are not healthy and you are too forthcoming, the MedXPress program will not be a blessing. In the old days, when a flight test was conducted on paper forms, if it wasn’t going very well a friendly examiner might toss the forms out.  Now that we have IACRA, once the examiner opens your file on-line, there are only three possible outcomes: pass, unsatisfactory, or discontinued.  The same logic holds true for the aeromedical examination.  For most of us Stinsoneers, a medical outcome of denial or deferred is a bad thing.  Here is the advice I give my students.  Sorry.  It’s long.  The decisions are the same whether the data is on paper or in data form.  The best advice is in the last paragraph.The medical examination and certificate is a prerequisite to flying as PIC as Student, Private, Commercial, or Airline Transport pilot.  Glider pilots and Sport Pilots do not require an aeromedical examination.For the healthy, the examination usually takes less time that making the appointment.  Can you hear the doctor whisper?  Can you read an eye chart?Here is the process.  At the appointed hour you walk into the office of the aeromedical examiner (often a doctor with a practice of internal medicine).  You will have filled out a web-based form called MedXPress previously with demographic information and your health history.  From this moment, three outcomes are possible: issuance, denial, or deferment.  The data has already been lodged in the FAA’s files, so you and the doctor cannot simply quit if the examination isn’t going well.  You, of course, want a medical certificate issued, or you wouldn’t have gone to the doctor.I was astounded to discover that of the 400,000 medicals issued each year, 164,000 of them are special issuance.  A special issuance means someone at the FAA in Oklahoma City must review your application, rather than simply rubber-stamping the finding of your local aeromedical examiner.The list of disqualifying conditions is published all over the web.  If you have a clearly disqualifying condition, we suggest that you not go for an examination at all.  A disqualification prohibits you from flying even as a Sport Pilot.  This is one of the few instances where not seeing a doctor puts you in a better position – at least with respect to flying.For those people who have a minor condition, or a condition being successfully treated to a long-term stable condition, the medical process is crucial.  It can mean the difference between some extra paperwork and a long and frustrating battle with the bureaucracy. If you have, for example, a history of kidney stones and you are asymptomatic, you will probably get a medical.  Twenty-two thousand other pilots have.  When you leave the doctor’s office on the day of your examination, you will not leave with a certificate.  You will leave with an admonition to collect your medical history from your urologist and bring it to your aeromedical examiner and forwarding to the FAA in Oklahoma City.When you collect your paperwork, make sure that you provide all of the information requested.  The single leading cause for rejection of applications for special issuance is incomplete paperwork.  Fully 80% of denials are the result of incomplete paperwork.  Whether this is the result of truly incomplete files, pilots who gave up on the process -- or a convenient excuse by the document examiners -- is a matter for discussion.  In my experience, the paper chase often leads to additional symptoms of mental disease by the time you finish working with the various offices.If you have any inkling that you may have a possibly disqualifying condition, we have some advice.  You can guess for yourself whether you do or don’t simply by having a look at FAA form.  If you answer “yes” to a history of suicide attempt, you can be sure your application will get extra attention.  We wouldn’t advise you to lie on the form, but we would recommend you consider you choose your words carefully in the explanatory section.  Therefore, we recommend the following strategy.  Call the examiner’s office and make an appointment for a consultation.  Make no mention of the FAA or aeromedical or anything associated with flying.  If you do, the admitting nurse is likely to hand you an FAA form, which is exactly what you don’t want.  When you see the doctor, tell him you want him to examine and interview you for an FAA medical of the class you need.  Ask him or her, “If I were to present myself tomorrow in the same shape I am today, would you issue me a medical?”  If the answer is no, then ask whether a special issuance is likely, and if so, how should the questions be answered.  No matter how much the charge is for the extra doctor visit, it will be less than the aggravation of chasing the paperwork through multiple doctor’s offices and Oklahoma City.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

From: "tasparr" <spa...@att.net>

Sender: Sti...@yahoogroups.com

Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2012 00:16:37 -0000

To: <Sti...@yahoogroups.com>

ReplyTo: Sti...@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [Stinson] Re: MedXPress

 

 

Hi Jack, I had a great time at IJX, good group of folks and I picked up some new pointers and confirmed some procedures. Thanks Bob, Long answer will save me a lot of time. When I went to the FAA site and saw I had to check in, I wasn't sure if It had a draft folder, so I left till I could get more info. Here in the Mid-west we have realistic AMEs, mine has been my primary care provider for over 25 years. I always consult with my AME before fully completing the form to insure we are on the same page and that I haven't made an error. My medical doesn't expire for five months, so thought I'd get a head start gathering info. Regards, Tom & NC577C --- In mailto:Stinson%40yahoogroups.com, Jack Stewart <jackstew52@...> wrote: > > Tom, my DME suggested that I not fill it out until I am in his office and > he can help me with it. Hope yours is as cooperative. > Thanks for coming to The Midwest Stinson reunion. Hope you had as much fun > as I did. > Jack NC9795K > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 2:43 PM, tasparr <sparr36@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > AOPA said that MedXPress became mandatory on 1 Oct, 2012. Has anyone used > > the program to fill out the flight physical form prior to meeting with > > their AME? > > I will most certainly become a better proof reader before I push the send > > key. > > Regards, Tom & NC577C > > > > > > >

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[Tom Holmes]

We really do need to take our government back!

Tom, two tandems, from Tampa that installed the L3 windshield yesterday w/o breaking it!

---

From: Cy Galley <cga...@mchsi.com>
To: fAA <aer...@westmont.edu>
Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2012 2:32 PM
Subject: [f-AA] FW: [Stinson] Re: MedXPress

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http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

[Jerry Eichenberger]

Tom –

 

I work with a couple of FSDOs almost weekly, and have not found this problem.  In fact, at one of them, they actually told a client who is thinking of applying for a 135 certificate that the FSDO is so low on work with the economy that the processing time for a new operator is cut way down from what it was a few years ago and they would welcome his application.  This client is a good guy who has a good reputation ,so the FSDO wants good operators who don’t cause problems or make waves.

Like all gov’t offices, they need to be busy to justify their staffing levels, and now they are not busy at all.

I guess it just depends on where you are, and how many active certificates they have in their office to supervise.

Jerry E.

[j...@joea.com]

November Tom,

Its 30 days away...

Joe A

---

Date sent:                   Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:40:09 -0700 (PDT)

From:                         Tom Holmes <thomasth...@sbcglobal.net>

To:                             "aer...@westmont.edu" <aer...@westmont.edu>

Subject:                     Re: [f-AA] FW: [Stinson] Re:### MedXPress

Send reply to:             aer...@westmont.edu, Tom Holmes <thomasth...@sbcglobal.net>

                                 <mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu?subject=unsubscribe>

                                 <mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu?subject=subscribe>

Hello all - If you are not healthy and you are too forthcoming, the MedXPress program will not be a blessing. In the old days, when a flight test was conducted on paper forms, if it wasn't going very well a friendly examiner might toss the forms out. Now that we have IACRA, once the examiner opens your file on-line, there are only three possible outcomes: pass, unsatisfactory, or discontinued. The same logic holds true for the aeromedical examination. For most of us Stinsoneers, a medical outcome of denial or deferred is a bad thing. Here is the advice I give my students. Sorry. It's long. The decisions are the same whether the data is on paper or in data form. The best advice is in the last paragraph.The medical examination and certificate is a prerequisite to flying as PIC as Student, Private, Commercial, or Airline Transport pilot. Glider pilots and Sport Pilots do not require an aeromedical examination.For the healthy, the examination usually takes less time that making the appointment. Can you hear the doctor whisper? Can you read an eye chart?Here is the process. At the appointed hour you walk into the office of the aeromedical examiner (often a doctor with a practice of internal medicine). You will have filled out a web-based form called MedXPress previously with demographic information and your health history. From this moment, three outcomes are possible: issuance, denial, or deferment. The data has already been lodged in the FAA's files, so you and the doctor cannot simply quit if the examination isn't going well. You, of course, want a medical certificate issued, or you wouldn't have gone to the doctor.I was astounded to discover that of the 400,000 medicals issued each year, 164,000 of them are special issuance. A special issuance means someone at the FAA in Oklahoma City must review your application, rather than simply rubber-stamping the finding of your local aeromedical examiner.The list of disqualifying conditions is published all over the web. If you have a clearly disqualifying condition, we suggest that you not go for an examination at all. A disqualification prohibits you from flying even as a Sport Pilot. This is one of the few instances where not seeing a doctor puts you in a better position - at least with respect to flying.For those people who have a minor condition, or a condition being successfully treated to a long-term stable condition, the medical process is crucial. It can mean the difference between some extra paperwork and a long and frustrating battle with the bureaucracy. If you have, for example, a history of kidney stones and you are asymptomatic, you will probably get a medical. Twenty-two thousand other pilots have. When you leave the doctor's office on the day of your examination, you will not leave with a certificate. You will leave with an admonition to collect your medical history from your urologist and bring it to your aeromedical examiner and forwarding to the FAA in Oklahoma City.When you collect your paperwork, make sure that you provide all of the information requested. The single leading cause for rejection of applications for special issuance is incomplete paperwork. Fully 80% of denials are the result of incomplete paperwork. Whether this is the result of truly incomplete files, pilots who gave up on the process -- or a convenient excuse by the document examiners -- is a matter for discussion. In my experience, the paper chase often leads to additional symptoms of mental disease by the time you finish working with the various offices.If you have any inkling that you may have a possibly disqualifying condition, we have some advice. You can guess for yourself whether you do or don't simply by having a look at FAA form. If you answer "yes" to a history of suicide attempt, you can be sure your application will get extra attention. We wouldn't advise you to lie on the form, but we would recommend you consider you choose your words carefully in the explanatory section. Therefore, we recommend the following strategy. Call the examiner's office and make an appointment for a consultation. Make no mention of the FAA or aeromedical or anything associated with flying. If you do, the admitting nurse is likely to hand you an FAA form, which is exactly what you don't want. When you see the doctor, tell him you want him to examine and interview you for an FAA medical of the class you need. Ask him or her, "If I were to present myself tomorrow in the same shape I am today, would you issue me a medical?" If the answer is no, then ask whether a special issuance is likely, and if so, how should the questions be answered. No matter how much the charge is for the extra doctor visit, it will be less than the aggravation of chasing the paperwork through multiple doctor's offices and Oklahoma City.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

From: "tasparr" < spa...@att.net >

Sender: Sti...@yahoogroups.com

Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2012 00:16:37 -0000

To: < Sti...@yahoogroups.com >

ReplyTo: Sti...@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [Stinson] Re: MedXPress

Hi Jack, I had a great time at IJX, good group of folks and I picked up some new pointers and confirmed some procedures. Thanks Bob, Long answer will save me a lot of time. When I went to the FAA site and saw I had to check in, I wasn't sure if It had a draft folder, so I left till I could get more info. Here in the Mid-west we have realistic AMEs, mine has been my primary care provider for over 25 years. I always consult with my AME before fully completing the form to insure we are on the same page and that I haven't made an error. My medical doesn't expire for five months, so thought I'd get a head start gathering info. Regards, Tom & NC577C --- In mailto:Stinson%40yahoogroups.com, Jack Stewart < jackstew52@... > wrote: > > Tom, my DME suggested that I not fill it out until I am in his office and > he can help me with it. Hope yours is as cooperative. > Thanks for coming to The Midwest Stinson reunion. Hope you had as much fun > as I did. > Jack NC9795K > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 2:43 PM, tasparr < sparr36@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > AOPA said that MedXPress became mandatory on 1 Oct, 2012. Has anyone used > > the program to fill out the flight physical form prior to meeting with > > their AME? > > I will most certainly become a better proof reader before I push the send > > key. > > Regards, Tom & NC577C > > > > > > >

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[vand...@aol.com]

 My paranoia spiked when I learned about the shift from paper applications to an electronic system requiring application to the FAA before seeing the AME.  But the post below is inaccurate. In fact the data sent via computer by the applicant are not available for review by the FAA until the applicant and the AME have mutually agreed to begin the examination. And if the applicant decides not to begin the exam the data sent are erased from the FAA system without being seen by anyone. It is true that once the exam has been begun the process requires the AME to follow through with with an issuance, deferral, or denial. But this was true under the old paper system.  Much of the rest of this post reflect common criticisms of the process. Some are valid others maybe not. For most of us flying on 3rd Class medicals the post is mostly nonsense. And by the way, I was told by an FAA FAAST person the most of the early comments from pilots regarding the AOPA/EAA proposal to relax some of the exam requirements for a 3rd Class Medical actually OPPOSED it on the grounds that "If we had to do it, then everyone should have to do it." Yikes!     Dan vdMeer

[Paul Anton]

 

On my last medical I used Med X press and filled out the form on line.  When I brought the control number to my AME he said I don’t to the computer form. J He filled a blank form out himself by hand and had me sign it.

I’ll bet he does it now.

Paul

N1431A

N2426E

2AZ1

[ginny wilken]

My fee was cheaper if I used the MedXpress:) It went fine; second time - and a different guy than the first, who had required it on his own - that I've used it. Both times were before it was required. No complaints here.

ginny

_______________________________________________

[Scott Johnson]

I thought the switch away from paper forms was a cost savings measure also?

Scott

[Vand...@aol.com]

Probably true for the vast majority of participants.  But my 2 favorite AMEs are well into their 9th decade and had to toss their IBM Selectric typewrites and invest in some new gadget called a computer.  And attach it to an ISP, and do something with software.  It has been an intellectual challenge and an economic hardship.  But they have managed to muddle through.

Dan

[Rich Dugger]

My present AME , likewise, will have to deep six his portable typewriter and I know it's gonna kill him since he got it off of the top of a trash can about ten years ago.
He recently put a new ribbon in it so I know that's what make it even more difficult.
Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: Vand...@aol.com
Sender: aeronca...@westmont.edu
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 14:03:01
To: <aer...@westmont.edu>
Reply-To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] FW: [Stinson] Re:### MedXPress

[Gregory Horrell]

Tom.

 

    Don't believe everything you hear about the FAA in Alaska. If ANYONE had a 135 certificate application with the FAA for the last 2 years in the Alaska Region they would either have that 135 certificate now or would be denied based on failure to comply for one reason or another (not completing required steps in the process, not have an airplane etc).

    The FAA isn't funded right now and is on a continuing resolution for pay. That means all new certification stops until Congress passes a budget. We are still required to do essential safety inspections including ramp checks.

 

Gregg Horrell

[Cy Galley]

 

Sounds like a “slow down strike”  i.e… We won’t do our assigned jobs until you give us more money, personnel, etc.

 

Why does the FSDO get to choose what they will or won’t do?  The personnel is still getting paid so why not do what is assigned.  It is much like the cavalier attitude that we won’t/can’t make any field approvals at our FSDO.

 

From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of Gregory Horrell
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 9:42 AM
To: aer...@westmont.edu; Tom Holmes
Subject: Re: [f-AA] FW: [Stinson] Re:### MedXPress

 

Tom.

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[Tom Holmes]

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Tom Holmes <thomasth...@sbcglobal.net>

To: Gregory Horrell <ryanae...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2012 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [f-AA] FW: [Stinson] Re:### MedXPress

Gregg,

I've been flying, and working at FBOs, for almost 60 years (next July).  Perhaps you don't realize just how special the Alaska FAA operation is?  ;-)  My experiences don't support much enthusiasm for the bulk of the offices.  I'm sure that some of it is my fault.  I am a major smart aleck!  ;-)  but cheerful!

Tom, two tandems, from Tampa

---

From: Gregory Horrell <ryanae...@gmail.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu; Tom Holmes <thomasth...@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2012 10:41 AM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] FW: [Stinson] Re:### MedXPress

[John Rodkey]

Except that it's not the workers who are initiating the slowdown - it's leadership.  Not quite the same as blue flu or similar bottom-up worker actions.  I think the de facto ban on field approvals is deplorable, but it may fall into a different category.  In the case of the field approval ban, management has made a decision which in my opinion abdicates permanently their responsibility for evaluating and approving/disapproving modifications.  In the temporary cutback in services due to the budget not being approved, I believe the management team has to reduce its day to day expenditures, which means layoffs and enforced days off for the workers.  At least this is how I have understood it, as an outsider.  Perhaps Gregg or Roger or others who have worked within the FAA can remove the mystery surrounding this.

John

--
John (poobah) Rodkey - N9361E 11AC at Goleta

[Thomas DeWinter]

All of FAA is a mess due to LACK of congressional leadership.  In the airport granting world.  We in Wisconsin and I think most of the nation did not get a vast majority of any of the discretionary funding for airport projects until the 2nd of 3rd week in September.  Now keep in mind that the end of the federal fiscal year is Sept. 30th.  And they must have at least a week to do paper work for year end accounting.

So most of the nation did not get a majority of the funding for airport improvement until the VERY last week in the entire year!  Also keep in mind that in places like Wisconsin and many other states in this beautiful country of ours you can't do much construction starting in September.

What this means is that many, many projects could not even start construction. They have to wait until next year.  Many of the states had to bid the projects knowing that construction would not occur into next year. What this means is SIGNIFICANT cost increases as the bidding contractors must guess and build into their bid price inflation.  The FAA in all their wisdom will NOT allow fuel cost adjustment clauses in their contracts to eliminate some of those risks. So the bidder just increase their bid price in order to cover their butts.  As a result the taxpayer is paying significantly more for the airport improvement and construction projects.

This is despite the fact that the re-authorization bill was finally signed into law that was valid for 4 years.  Funding must be passed EVERY year. But Congress has not passed a budget in several years. And they keep doing "continuing resolutions" in bits and parts. For example right now as Gregg mention the FAA is only funded for a few months.  Thus FAA has no way to plan. And this happens for construction projects as well.

For the last several years come about March of the year when we should be bidding out projects so they can be built in the construction season. Congress in their infinite wisdom only funds 50% to 60% of the funds.  That sounds good for a politician.  But what the hell good is 50% of the funding for a runway reconstruction?  What are the engineers supposed to do?  One option is to cut the project in half. Which means spending good money after bad to pay the design engineer's to modify the plans.  Plus that means taking twice as long to build the project, twice the impact to the flying public to shut the runway and maybe the whole airport down twice instead of once.  Then even if the 2nd half of the money comes later. You have to bid that 2nd half out. Now you have one contractor already out there on the airport constructing, and now maybe a different contractor wins the 2nd half of the runway project.  Now you have a mess with two different contractors working in the same area conflicting with each other and you have one big holy God awful mess!

Another option which is what many states do is do nothing and wait until you you get the money and hope that Congress does it soon enough to still get the project done. But most often that doesn't happen. And you are back into the scenario where you are bidding late in the year with contractors guessing and inflating their prices for the following year construction.

So the administrative portion of FAA has their own issues to deal with. They too must make a decision as to what they can and can not do to spend what limited length of time and money they are offered.  I'm sure just like any other business they have priorities. And the priority of FAA is safety. So safety related items are critical and they are to do them first.  Only after that can or really should they do other paper work.

I'm no fan of the FAA by any means. I'm just trying to relate the realities of how dysfunctional our government is. And this is only in ONE little area.  If that is not enough proof to tell you that a major change in the size and scope and role of government is needed well I don't  know what to say.

And this is all with guaranteed aviation trust fund dollars that are expressly dedicated for aviation purposes. We are not talking general tax revenue.  If Congress can't even manage dedicated  fund for such a small niche as aviation, what chance do they have running the rest of the nation?  And we wonder why we're so messed up.  This is exactly why the founders of our nation wanted the federal government to be limited to only the 20 items listed in the constitution.  Leaving the rest to the states and the people. But somehow we've gotten to the point that a state can't even set a speed limit without jeopardizing Billions of dollars of highway funds to the state because Washington has hold of all the strings and make the states and the people jump like a puppet when they pull this string or that.  And we call this freedom????

End of rant!

---

From: Cy Galley <cga...@mchsi.com>

To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2012 10:04 AM

[John Rodkey]

Thanks for the rant, Thomas.  It contains a lot of insight into the down and dirty, nitty gritty problems of managing an airport's grant funding mechanism in the context of lack of congressional budget.  I suspect you're right that the same considerations are happening within the FAA leadership, resulting in the situation that Gregg describes for us.

It's also a cautionary tale for us about assuming the worst for the FAA people in general, when it sounds like to a large degree their hands are tied.  

John

[Cy Galley]

I too assume it is leadership.  It is sad that one cannot do his full  job even while being paid.

 

 

Cy Galley - Chair, AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair

A service project of EAA Chapter 75 since 1963

www.eaa75.com

[Gregory Horrell]

Cy (Sigh!),

 

    The FSDO doesn't get to pick and choose adding new certificates but does have to do what is already assigned! That is what a continuing resolution is all about. I find the term "slow down strike" pretty offensive. The assigned jobs are getting done. If you would read FAA Order 8900.1, Vol. 4, Chap. 9, Sec. 1, Figure 4-68 you will KNOW what you are talking about when it comes to what FAA inspectors are presently authorized to evaluate for field approval. A LOT changed last April with Change 198.

 

    Here's a link if you have trouble researching this stuff.....

 

            http://fsims.avs.faa.gov/fsims/fsims.nsf/8900contents?readform

 

Gregg Horrell

[Cy Galley]

Gregg, You should NOT take it personally.  The FAA bureaucracy and some  certain personnel are a PR nightmare.  FAA says one thing then their field rep makes a decision not from the book but from their  personal take.  Most of the time the people that it effects just roll with the punches  and do some FSDO shopping.  I know you find that offensive but it is the truth.

 

It seems to me when we have such high unemployment that the FAA could not only issue new certificates but expedite the process to make new jobs and help the economy.  New certificate would mean that there would have to be more FAA jobs to oversee these new entities. Since it is the paper work that bogs the process, why not streamline ALL the paper work processes?

 

Please do not take this as a personal attack but is used to be that the FAA was supposed to promote Aviation. That mandate is gone.  Now the FAA impedes it all under the guise of safety.  If it was working, the safety would be improved but that is hardly the case.

 

 

Cy Galley - Chair, AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair

A service project of EAA Chapter 75 since 1963

www.eaa75.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rick Dover]

Gregg

I’d like some insight but the link did not work for me, can you correct it?

 

Thanks Rick

---

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5317 - Release Date: 10/08/12

[Gregory Horrell]

try this.....

 

http://fsims.faa.gov/PICResults.aspx?mode=EBookContents

[Gregory Horrell]

Vol. 4, Chap. 9, Sec. 1, Figure 4-68......read the whole section then tell me what I'm authorized to Field Approve.

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 6:21 PM, Rick Dover <rdo...@mmr-inc.net> wrote:

[Jim Baker]

You guys are arguing apples and oranges... I read the section and was left with the impression if I had that type of supporting documentation or data, why the heck would I need a field approval?

I'm glad to hear you guys that work for the FAA are frustrated...still, I can't believe it compares to the frustration I feel as a 30 year IA without an "approved" glue to use on wood, or 43.13 saying to use 4130 rod when welding 4130. Adding insult to injury is to have ASI's that just shrug and say there is nothing they can do... Makes that old phrase "I'm here to help" even more BS than when originally coined.

---

From: Gregory Horrell <ryanae...@gmail.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu

Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 12:38 AM

[Scott Johnson]

I received the field approval for the C-150 exhaust install on the Champ inside of a week.  I had previously contacted the inspector and used the field approval checklist and it was a no brainer.

Scott

[Cy Galley]

That one works/

 

Cy

[Harvey Brock]

Scott,
   Let me know how the heater works with the C150 exhaust. I have a '46 Chief and get cold feet during Winter flying. When the temp is below freezing the headset doubles as earmuffs.
 
Harvey
 

---

Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 09:22:28 -0400
From: sko...@gmail.com

[Brian Matz]

Harvey, 

These will take care of your cold feet in the winter and they are a lot cheaper and easier to install than a C-150 exhaust!

http://www.basspro.com/HeatMax-HotHands-Toe-Warmer-Bonus-Pack/product/10202095/

---

From: Harvey Brock <harve...@hotmail.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 10:38 AM
Subject: [f-AA] C-150 exhaust on a Champ - field approval

[Harvey Brock]

  I like the "Proudly made in the USA" label shown in the upper right hand corner.
 

---

Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 07:58:53 -0700
From: bwmat...@yahoo.com
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] C-150 exhaust on a Champ - field approval

[Dale P. Jewett]

Scott,

 

I would also appreciate getting a copy of your field approval documentation. I would like to install that system on my 1946 Chief. Flying in Kansas in cold weather just doesn't get enough heat from the original Wye exhaust muffs, eith for the carb heat or the cabin.

 

Dale Jewett 

----- Original Message -----

From: Scott Johnson

To: aer...@westmont.edu

[John Rodkey]

Just curious:  you have the triangular restrictor baffle with multiple small holes that goes above the exhaust pipe joint and between the two heat muff sides in place?  This makes a fair amount of difference in the amount of heat transferred to the air, although it may not compete with a Kansas winter.

John

[Dale P. Jewett]

John,

 

I really don't know if that baffle is in place or not. At the last annual inspection, my A&P-IA checked the exhaust for compliance with the recurring AD, but I was not with him at the time. I need to call and ask him about that baffle. I can see how that would make a significant difference. My A&P-IA  may not have even known about that. Thanks for the information.

 

Do you or anyone have a drawing of that baffle and its placement in the muffs?

[Harvey Brock]

 Scott,
   Your mod seems to be an item of interest. I too would like a copy so when you send it to Dale, copy me also. This sounds like something I will do and it's something on my mind as Winter approaches.
Harvey
 

---

From: dal...@sbcglobal.net
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 10:24:41 -0500

[Thomas DeWinter]

The metal triangular piece in my Chief is solid. That is it does not have holes in it.

I'd still love to see a mechanism approved that allows the heat from the carb heat be brought in to the cabin instead of being wastefully thrown overboard when the carb heat is not in use.  For us folks in the great white and cold north it would be nice to have twice the amount of heat.  Sure you'd not get it when the carb heat is on. But all the rest of the time it would at least help fend off the cold.

It sure seems like a terrible waste as your passenger's feet are freezing and you know 20 inches ahead of your freezing feet you're dumping heat out the bottom of the cowl for no reason what so ever!

Massively trimmed e-mail!

TomD

---

From: Harvey Brock <harve...@hotmail.com>

To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 3:05 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] FW: [Stinson] Re:### MedXPress

[John Rodkey]

I don't have a drawing, but I could take a picture of it.  It's rather easy to construct.  

Mine appears to be out of a thin sheet of SS .020 ???  In any case, it is triangular, not quite equilateral, not quite a right triangle,  has a single hole at the bottom end for attaching to the cross-brace at the join of the Y, and is punched with 3/16" or 1/4" holes every 1/2 inch within the center of the area.  Probably 5 inches high, 4 inches across the top.

It lays against the exhaust pipe on each side and forces the flow of air through the center to go through the little holes, presumably increasing the surface area exposed to high temperature.

[Dale P. Jewett]

John,

 

I checked with my A&P-IA who did the last annual and the required exhaust inspection per the AD, and he said there was no baffle in place on either side. I called Bill Pancake, and he is going to send me a drawing of those baffles so I can have them made.

 

I really appreciate all of the help this Aeronca group has been to me. What an amazing wealth of knowledge!!!!

 

I severely trimmed and renamed this message.

 

Dale Jewett

----- Original Message -----

From: John Rodkey

To: aer...@westmont.edu

Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 4:13 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] FW: [Stinson] Re:### MedXPress

[John Rodkey]

If you get a chance, perhaps you could get an extra made and throw it in the mail for me.  One of them went missing during the rebuild, so I only have it on the Carb Heat side.  

Good thing: it usually doesn't get that cold in California.  Just sayin'....

John

_______________________________________________
Aeronca mailing list
Aer...@westmont.edu
http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

[j...@joea.com]

John,

Also have seen a metal door spring coiled around the exhaust pipe inside the baffle to get
more heat.

Anyone try this?

Joe A

[Harvey Brock]

  I have thought the same thing about the carb heat. It may not be warm and toasty with that heat directed into the cabin, but every litttle bit helps.
 
Harvey
 

---

Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 13:38:39 -0700
From: toms...@yahoo.com
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] FW: [Stinson] ReChief cabin heat used to be ### MedXPress

[Tom Pederson]

Reminds me of the heating 'system' in the old air cooled VW's...worked better if one added those tiny accessory fans to push the  warm air up to the front (thank you J.C. Whitney).

Tom

[Dale P. Jewett]

John,

 

I will be glad to make an extra one for you. I am sure I have your mailing address here.

 

Dale Jewett

[John Rodkey]

Thanks!

[Stephen Briggs]

The door spring was used by Burt Rutan in the Vari-Eze.  Only difference was.. a hardware type door spring will rust and break into small metal pieces.  Instead use heavy safety wire, coil the safety wire around a thin dowel the size of a pencil.  This forms a spring coil any length desired. Slide the coil off the dowel and use it like a spring. (has no stretch but you don't need stretch for this application).

Steve

> From: j...@joea.com
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 17:47:36 -0700
> Subject: Re: [f-AA] WYE exhaust muff baffles
>

[Cy Galley]

Or buy a Stainless door spring.  They are available as I have two for my never completed VariEze

 

 

Cy Galley - Chair, AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair

A service project of EAA Chapter 75 since 1963

www.eaa75.com

 

 

 

[Stephen Briggs]

That's interesting Cy, I wonder how many other of us OFs had Vari-Eze projects, I flew mine in 1979, sold it to a guy who crashed it buzzing a corn field in Iowa.  He didn't get hurt but broke up the plane pretty badly.  Told the FAA guy he had and engine failure.  Trouble was, the FAA guy asked him why the wooden prop was missing both blades and had fence wire embedded in the remaining wooden hub, sure looked like the engine was turning at high RPM.  Guy got caught.

---

From: cga...@mchsi.com
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 09:05:39 -0500

[Thomas DeWinter]

It is also used on the carb heat side of the exhaust stacks. So it is not just a cabin heat thing.

---

From: John Rodkey <pooba...@gmail.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 7:27 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] WYE exhaust muff baffles

[Dale P. Jewett]

John,

 

Here is a .pdf file of the baffle, but it does not show any holes within the center as you describe. I have located the SS sheet, and will try to get some of these made next week. What do you think about the holes?

 

Dale

----- Original Message -----

From: John Rodkey

To: aer...@westmont.edu

Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 4:13 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] FW: [Stinson] Re:### MedXPress

[John Rodkey]

I'll have to take a picture of it over the weekend.  

Mine has some small 'ears' at the top end that allow it to be pinched directly between the two halves of the heat muff.

Looks like a professionally manufactured part...  but all I really know is that is what was on my airplane.  I suppose one could measure the temp of air with and without holes and see what if any difference there is.

Oh, and probably would be good to measure airflow, if one had the equipment to do so...

John

_______________________________________________
Aeronca mailing list
Aer...@westmont.edu
http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

[Travis Gregory]

I've had this same thought Tom. I have obtained the part that goes on the forward side of the firewall for a second heat inlet but still need the part that goes on the cabin side. Then would work-up some drawings etc., etc..

By the way, can anyone tell me why the the heater hose nipple coming off of the exhaust is 2" and the heat inlet is 1 1/2"?

travis gregory

---

From: Thomas DeWinter <toms...@yahoo.com>
To: "aer...@westmont.edu" <aer...@westmont.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 3:38 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] FW: [Stinson] ReChief cabin heat used to be ### MedXPress

[John Rodkey]

[Dale P. Jewett]

John,

Thanks for the photo. It sure looks like the holes are factory made, very
uniformly spaced.

Dale Jewett

----- Original Message -----

From: "John Rodkey" <rod...@westmont.edu>
To: "Aeronca Aviators" <aer...@westmont.edu>
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 10:25 AM
Subject: [f-AA] Heat muff baffle






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Tom Holmes]

Mine is a flat plate, about 5/8" x 3 1/2", with one 1/4" hole in the middle ish.

Tom

---

From: John Rodkey <rod...@westmont.edu>
To: Aeronca Aviators <aer...@westmont.edu>

Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 11:25 AM

Subject: [f-AA] Heat muff baffle

[Robert McDonald]

The uneven hole spacing makes me think it is a "user modification" of the standard part. Looks like it was just "eyeballed" instead of laying it out first.

Rob

-------- Original Message --------

Subject:	[f-AA] Heat muff baffle

Date:	Sat, 13 Oct 2012 08:25:30 -0700
From:	John Rodkey <rod...@westmont.edu>
Reply-To:	aer...@westmont.edu
To:	Aeronca Aviators <aer...@westmont.edu>

[Dale P. Jewett]

Rob,

 

You may be right. I talked with my A&P-IA friend (retired), and his take was that no holes would be better, IF the air flow was up, over, and down across the baffle, thereby more time for heat tgransfer. Seems to me that from the appearance of the baffle, that may be the way the one in John's photo was designed. However, the drawing doesn't have an indication of the gap at the top. I intend to wait an see how a newly manufactured one fits within the muffs. If there is a space for the air to flow over the top of the baffle, then I intend to leave out the holes.

[Todd Trainor]

Drawing 1-2437 does not show any holes. IMHO, you don't want the holes.
If properly assembled, the heat muff forces air around the hot exhaust pipes
via a 1/4 inch gap between the muff and the exhaust pipes and the 1/8 to 1/4
inch gap between the baffle and the exhaust pipes. Putting the holes in
the baffle will cause some air to slip through without getting maximum heat
exchange from the exhaust pipes. The baffle will not be as hot as the
exhaust pipes since the only place the baffle contacts the exhaust pipe is
at the AN515 bolt, so heating the air via holes in the baffle will not be as
effective. It's just physics.

I cannot imagine why you'd want to reduce the amount of heat from the
muff/baffle/pipe assembly for cabin heat or carb heat. Has anyone
complained about too much cabin heat?

If this baffle is used for carb heat, I recommend assembling it for maximum
heat exchange. Carb heat is nothing to mess with! My friend likely
crashed due to carb icing on takeoff. (No NTSB report yet, but the engine
and mags look good.) Upon partial power loss on takeoff the first thing is
to turn on carb heat. Any delay in melting carb ice could be critical to
the timely recovery of power before you smack the earth, or worse, stall
while being distracted.

I also recommend the you follow this drawing exactly and, in case there are
any other unexpected variance, ensure that an even gap exists between the
baffles and the exhaust pipes. If I understand it correctly (I cannot find
this on the drawing) I believe the top of the baffle tucks into the top of
muff, the no heat should be able to slip over the top of the baffle.

Sorry to soapbox about this, but my local Aeronca friends and I have poured
over the carb-heat drawings and wing-wash data since our friend crashed on
takeoff last month. We have no facts on the actual crash, but we are
disturbed by what we find in other Aeroncas relating to proper carb heat and
wing wash configurations.

Todd Trainor
2285 Ore Creek Lane
Brighton, MI 48114

810-599-4035
tt...@aol.com

-----Original Message-----
From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On
Behalf Of Dale P. Jewett
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 11:50 AM
To: aer...@westmont.edu

[Dale P. Jewett]

Todd,

After much consideration and discussion with my A&P-IA friend, I think the
holes are not correct. Seems that the baffle is more to slow down the air
travel inside the muffs so that it can absorb more heat. The longer the time
it takes the air to travel around the baffle, the more heat it will absorb.
My main desire is to increase the effective carb heat. If I can get a gain
in cabin heat, so be it, but I have had one instance of carb icing, and I
surely don't want that to happen again. I was in the pattern, was able to
make it to the runway, but the engine completely stopped before I had rolled
out. I did find the inlet side scat tubing had come off the muff, but I am
still not satisfied with the effectiveness of the carb heat. As soon as I
get the baffle constructed according to the factory drawing, I will install
it and see how well it works.

[Thomas DeWinter]

Maybe I missed it or deleted it.  but was the drawing of this heat muff baffle 1-2437  attached somewhere?

Or could someone attach it please.  While I have a triangular piece in each muff. I'm not 100% convinced it is shaped exactly correct.

Thanks,

TomD

---

From: Todd Trainor <tt...@aol.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 7:33 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Heat muff baffle

[j...@joea.com]

Attached.

Joe A

On 15 Oct 2012 at 9:35, Thomas DeWinter wrote:

>
> Maybe I missed it or deleted it. but was the drawing of this heat muff baffle
> 1-2437 attached somewhere?
>
> Or could someone attach it please. While I have a triangular piece in each muff.
> I'm not 100% convinced it is shaped exactly correct.
>
> Thanks,
>
> TomD
>

[Cy Galley]

Here it is again.

 

Cy Galley; Aeronca Aviator

Supporting Aeroncas every day

www.aeronca.org   

518-731-3131