[f-AA] 4130 Chromemoly Airframe Construction DVDs
Ladd, Brooks (ITD)
I’ve found 2 videos that appear to cover most of the information I’m looking to learn and then practice (go-cart for the boys?!) before attempting repair of my Champ fuselage. Has anyone seen or have an opinion on the two videos below or any other resources that may be helpful?
Airframe Construction Techniques 4130 Steel Tube Airframe Construction Video
http://stores.blackhillsairsports.com/cataloglist.html
4130 Chromemoly Airframe Construction (2 DVD set)
http://www.tinmantech.com/html/4130_aircraft_chromemoly_tubin.php
Thanks,
-Brooks
Jerry Jackson
Ladd, Brooks (ITD)
Thanks Jerry.
I am new to welding so I am looking to learn as much as I can and possibly end up taking a class. I was afraid I would not be able to find a class that would specialize in 4130 tubes. So I am looking for a soup to nuts presentation; tube and rod selection, measuring, cutting, prep, welding techniques, and finish. This could comes in any form, Instructional video, classes, self learning.
Just a tad more detail where I am coming from. Just picked up my gas welding setup so I could practice cutting and joining.
-Brooks
Craig MacVeigh
I have not seen the other video, but I've thought about buying it. I guess that I'm also looking for any reviews.
Here are a few sites that I have found, that have given me a few ideas.
http://www.captalrice.com/Skybolt%20Fuselage.htm
http://nx770cg.com/NextProjectTailwind.html
http://www.bradroberson.com/images/skybolt/fusconst.html
http://www.winternet.com/~dlp/skybolt.html
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~cscott/
Best of Luck,
Craig in Renton
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 11:18:46 -0400
From: Brook...@state.ma.us
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: [f-AA] 4130 Chromemoly Airframe Construction DVDs
Make every e-mail and IM count. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft.
j...@joea.com
we are not talking about building a trellis for the garden here. Welding something small on
the car or around the house is one thing, but doing major repairs like are needed to this
airframe are a totally different ball game.
I have restored or worked on the restoration of 3 Aeronca's. Done the welding for the
airframe on 2 of them. One was fairly major repairs and the other replacement of longerons
and such in the tail cone area, which is still a major repair.
This is not something that I would ever recommend for someone who does not have
extensive experience with both a welder (hopefully not a plain gas version, TIG or MIG is
what should be used on this) and with tube structures. To get to the level needed to weld
things like this would take YEARS of experience.
Someone in this situation IMHO really needs to take the airframe to someone who is very
experienced at this type of repair and let them do it correctly in a jig. This way you can still
enjoy the airplane when its completed and continue the restoration if your IA is willing to
work with you. I know of only one Champ (and not even one Chief) jig in the world, and that
is in N. Ohio.
If they want to stay around and assist while someone is repairing the airframe that's fine with
most people. Normally I would put that I am not trying to scare someone away from doing
their own repairs but in this case I am. This is way over the head of about 99% of the people
in the field these days. I do not want to see you put years of work into restoring the airplane
and then have the tail come loose in flight and have an accident.
Joe A
Phoenix
On 30 May 2008 at 11:30, Jerry Jackson wrote:
>
> Brooks
>
> I have the DVD set from Tinman.It has some good tips on building airplane structures but it does
> very little towards teaching welding skills. If you are already aproficient welder then it is helpful.
> If not then spend your money learning to weld first. Contact meat jer...@texas.netif you need
> any tips on that.
>
> Jerry
_______________________________________________
Aeronca mailing list
Aer...@westmont.edu
http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca
John Rodkey
John
I have to agree with Jerry with this comment below. A video or DVD is nice to get started but
we are not talking about building a trellis for the garden here. Welding something small on
the car or around the house is one thing, but doing major repairs like are needed to this
airframe are a totally different ball game.
I have restored or worked on the restoration of 3 Aeronca's. Done the welding for the
airframe on 2 of them. One was fairly major repairs and the other replacement of longerons
and such in the tail cone area, which is still a major repair.
This is not something that I would ever recommend for someone who does not have
extensive experience with both a welder (hopefully not a plain gas version, TIG or MIG is
what should be used on this) and with tube structures. To get to the level needed to weld
things like this would take YEARS of experience.
John (poobah) Rodkey - N9361E 11AC at Goleta
Cy Galley
From: Ladd, Brooks (ITD)Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 9:18 AMSubject: [f-AA] 4130 Chromemoly Airframe Construction DVDs
John Rodkey
Steve Lawlor
I agree with Cy about the Osh welding seminars. I'm a welder as one of
my trades and still like to learn at Osh.
BTW Wicks has 4130 scrap practice kits on special. I just bought one.
Helps me knock the rust off of my skills before I do an important job.
EAA also has the Sportair workshops that teach basic welding skills.
Might be worth looking into.
Steve Lawlor
Cy Galley wrote:
> I would strongly sugguest that you take a beginning welding course at
> your local Community college or come to Oshkosh for some hands on. The
> biggest thing to learn is setting the welder, either current or gas
> flow. Getting the "Puddle" right for proper pentitration takes a while
> but comes quickly with some practice. There are welding workshops at
> Oshkosh plus the welding vendors that will guide you through the basic
> steps; FREE.
> Incidently there are NO FAA standards for certifying a welder. It is
> the resultant welds that have to be certified airworthy by an A&P or I/A.
> Cy
> P.S. If you have time, stop by the Emergency Aircraft Repair. If we
> are NOT busy, I have several world class gas welders tha can get you
> started.
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Ladd, Brooks (ITD) <mailto:Brook...@state.ma.us>
> *To:* aer...@westmont.edu <mailto:aer...@westmont.edu>
> *Sent:* Friday, May 30, 2008 9:18 AM
> *Subject:* [f-AA] 4130 Chromemoly Airframe Construction DVDs
>
> I’ve found 2 videos that appear to cover most of the information
> I’m looking to learn and then practice (go-cart for the boys?!)
> before attempting repair of my Champ fuselage. Has anyone seen or
> have an opinion on the two videos below or any other resources
> that may be helpful?
>
> Airframe Construction Techniques 4130 Steel Tube Airframe
> Construction Video
>
> http://stores.blackhillsairsports.com/cataloglist.html
>
> 4130 Chromemoly Airframe Construction (2 DVD set)
>
> http://www.tinmantech.com/html/4130_aircraft_chromemoly_tubin.php
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Brooks
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Aeronca mailing list
> Aer...@westmont.edu
> http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Rude
Amen to what Cy said below, Very well said Cy and right on point too, Dave
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Mark McAtee
Cubs are NOT all 4130... as most of you know. It seems that the 1026,that was used for most of the j3 airframe, is a semiporus metal and water will infliltrate between the crystal structure. This causes crystal isolation with a rust interface. You cant see it, but it is there. Makes welding on cub tubing that has been exposed to the elements for years nearly impossible to weld, braze or solder. I have a rubbermaid garbage can full of what used to be a cub. It is scrap. Not even good for tent stakes. The 4130 parts welded fine and were used for seats in a tailwind.
The same might be true of the pre-war Aeronca airframes and the post war non 4130 sections. I don't know.
I took some of the cub to the local welding teacher at the junior college and asked him to try his hand at it. I checked with him last week and all he could do was shake his head. He said it was kind of like trying to arc weld titanium with a buzz box. I went home and tried just that. I don't recommend that either.
Mark
straight - no drift/crab. You want to make sure your wreckage goes straight down the runway..."
> Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 19:20:43 -0500
> From: 9m...@ponyexpress.net
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> Subject: Re: [f-AA] 4130 Chromemoly Airframe Construction DVDs
Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. Help protect your kids.
Steve Lawlor
The tubing as it lays on the ground will become magnetized from the
earth's fields making it impossible to weld. I've seen this more with
steel stored in contact with the earth. The arc will do a dance around
the area you want to weld. Farmers have asked me to weld up some old
pipe that they've had laying around. They knock the dirt and rust off
and can't understand why it won't weld.
Steve Lawlor
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. Help
> protect your kids.
Plain Carl
> > > *To:* aer...@westmont.edu
Mark McAtee
Wouldn't the magnetism, at the heat affected zone, disappear at the Curie point?
Mark
"When landing a taildragger, all that matters is you touchdown straight - no drift/crab. You want to make sure your wreckage goes straight down the runway..."
> Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 22:07:28 -0500
Mark McAtee
And yes, this cub was sitting on the ground for many many years. Not much corrosion (Wyoming is very dry). I wonder why the 4130 parts welded fine and the mild steel portions didn't?
Mark
"When landing a taildragger, all that matters is you touchdown straight - no drift/crab. You want to make sure your wreckage goes straight down the runway..."
> Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 22:07:28 -0500
Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft.
Tom Boyle
Steve Lawlor
It most likely will, but the arc wanders too much to concentrate the
heat properly in the weld zone. A furnace might also work, but might
alter the properties of the metal.
Steve
Steve Lawlor
Sadly, I haven't a clue. Time to hit the books and find out. Another
thing about old aircraft tubing is the Linoil has to be fully removed
from the inside before any weld is attempted.
Steve
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i’m Initiative from
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Craig MacVeigh
I've worked on C-3 pieces that were not pristine with no problem, other than everything being thin (by design). A lot of .022 tubing. I can see MIG/TIG being less tolerant of rust and magnetism. At work, fabricating steel, we hate to use MIG unless it'e new metal.
Craig
P.S. I love these discussions. Every time I read one of these strings I learn something new!
From: gorg...@hotmail.com
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:01:47 +0000
Larry Huntley
very difficult to weld after the fact. Water / lye mixture removes it for
welding. I am sure you would know if this were the case,but ??? Larry
Huntley
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David Rude
| With all due respect guys the theory that steel laying on the ground becomes strongly magnetized is wrong. I don't mean to piss any of you off but consider a few things as you think about this; Why would steel laying on the ground be magnetized to any greater extent than say steel sitting in saw horses a few feet above the ground? The answer is it will not be significantllty different. A few feet of vertical height does not make a big difference in the earth's magnetic flux Does the earth's feild induce strong magnetization? no, other wise your airplane would get strongly magnetized when its tied down as would everything else of steel/iron. What is special about touching the ground with respect to magnetization? nothing, earth is a poor conductor and nonmagnetic Does strong magnetism make an arc dance? yes for sure, stick a magnet next to your weld and try to make another bead, other things make arcs dance too If this theory is true how can any steel be electric welded after it has been stored on the ground? the contruction industry would come to a halt. Or what if I stored it in a basement on a saw horse that would even be worse since it is in effect underground then, how come it can be welded? I have and still do store mild steel on the floor and weld it, it comes out fine. There is obviously somethng wrong and you can't electric weld this stuff but I don't think for a minute is the earth's feild doing it because steel contacted the earth. I am not saying that you parts are not magnitized but if they are it came from some other source. What was the prior use may be a good question? Could some chemical reaction with fertilizers cause this? perhaps it destroys the metal's grain structure? Maybe some clever physicists out there have a clue. That's my 4 cents. :-) Dave --- On Sat 05/31, < aeronca...@westmont.edu > wrote: |
From: [mailto: aeronca...@westmont.edu] |
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 07:03:53 -0700 |
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Craig MacVeigh
you've started quite a chain of discussion here.
Bottom-line, Read everything, take a class, watch videos, practice. The boxes of end pieces from Wicks or A/C Spruce are great. 4130 Tube is it's own animal.
You may not be able to develop your skills to complete all repairs(on this project). But you might be good enough to do the fitting and maybe tack the pieces in place (That's a whole different skill set and half the battle).
Please don't be discouraged by the comments. You don't need to be a student of Nikola Tesla to fix an AERONCA.
Find someone you can work with. A local EAA Chapter is a great place to start. When you stand up and say you need help with a welding project, you'll probably come away with 2-3 phone numbers. You might have to call other chapters in the area. The demonstrations at any of the major EAA Fly-ins are invaluable.
Work within you limits. Plan of making test clusters/splices that you can cut up afterwards. It's pretty satisfying to see the results. Hopefully the voids get fewer and the penetration gets more consistent.
Have Fun. Learning how to weld tube structures is one of the most satisfying, challenging skill sets. It's faster than gluing and more durable than rivets.
Best of Luck,
Craig
cmac...@hotmail.com
P.S. Do not let the "Professional Welder" (Trailer Maker/Boiler Maker/Pipefitter) touch your plane. They don't live in the world of .035 tubing. I have a relative that does welding in Nuclear plants. He wouldn't try this without a bunch of study and practice. It's a different game.
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 11:18:46 -0400
From: Brook...@state.ma.us
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: [f-AA] 4130 Chromemoly Airframe Construction DVDs
I’ve found 2 videos that appear to cover most of the information I’m looking to learn and then practice (go-cart for the boys?!) before attempting repair of my Champ fuselage. Has anyone seen or have an opinion on the two videos below or any other resources that may be helpful?
Airframe Construction Techniques 4130 Steel Tube Airframe Construction Video
http://stores.blackhillsairsports.com/cataloglist.html
4130 Chromemoly Airframe Construction (2 DVD set)
http://www.tinmantech.com/html/4130_aircraft_chromemoly_tubin.php
Thanks,
-Brooks
n20...@provide.net
Hi Guys,
Been following this thread and was wondering if you could tell me agian what happened when you went to weld, how much heat and what you were using for filler. It seems to me if the Cub was mild steel say 1010 or close to it, there would be less carbon than 4130 and less chance of it getting brittle/forming crystals.
Thanks,
Scott
On May 31, 2008, 9m...@ponyexpress.net wrote:
Mark,
Sadly, I haven't a clue. Time to hit the books and find out. Another
thing about old aircraft tubing is the Linoil has to be fully removed
from the inside before any weld is attempted.
Steve
Mark McAtee wrote:
>
> And yes, this cub was sitting on the ground for many many years. Not
> much corrosion (Wyoming is very dry). I wonder why the 4130 parts
> welded fine and the mild steel portions didn't?
>
>
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> "When landing a taildragger, all that matters is you
> touchdown straight - no drift/crab. You want to make sure your
> wreckage goes straight down the runway..."
>
>
>
>
>
> > > > > *From:* Ladd, Brooks (ITD) <mailto:Brook...@state.ma.us>
> > > > > *To:* aer...@westmont.edu <mailto:aer...@westmont.edu>
> > > > > *Sent:* Friday, May 30, 2008 9:18 AM
> > > > > *Subject:* [f-AA] 4130 Chromemoly Airframe Construction DVDs
> > > > >
> > > > > I’ve found 2 videos that appear to cover most of the information
> > > > > I’m looking to learn and then practice (go-cart for the boys?!)
> > > > > before attempting repair of my Champ fuselage. Has anyone seen or
> > > > > have an opinion on the two videos below or any other resources
> > > > > that may be helpful?
> > > > >
> > > > > Airframe Construction Techniques 4130 Steel Tube Airframe
> > > > > Construction Video
> > > > >
> > > > > http://stores.blackhillsairsports.com/cataloglist.html
> > > > >
> > > > > 4130 Chromemoly Airframe Construction (2 DVD set)
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.tinmantech.com/html/4130_aircraft_chromemoly_tubin.php
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > -Brooks
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Aeronca mailing list
> > > > > Aer...@westmont.edu
> > > > > http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Aeronca mailing list
> > > > > Aer...@westmont.edu
> > > > > http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Aeronca mailing list
> > > > Aer...@westmont.edu
> > > > http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. Help
> > > protect your kids.
> > >
>
> > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Aeronca mailing list
> > > Aer...@westmont.edu
> > > http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Aeronca mailing list
> > Aer...@westmont.edu
> > http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i’m Initiative from
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Mark McAtee
No linseed oil in this one.
Mark
Mark McAtee
I weld conduit (etch with HCl first), black pipe, chromo, and mild steel fairly well. This stuff is an anomoly. I have tried brazing, silver solder and buzz box. Epoxy worked the best.
C3? more details pleas.
Mark
"When landing a taildragger, all that matters is you touchdown straight - no drift/crab. You want to make sure your wreckage goes straight down the runway..."
From: cmac...@hotmail.com
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 14:16:48 +0000
Mark McAtee
the parts I am sure were 4130 welded fine and I made seats for my Tailwind from these.
Mark
"When landing a taildragger, all that matters is you touchdown straight - no drift/crab. You want to make sure your wreckage goes straight down the runway..."
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 19:21:33 +0000
From: n20...@provide.net
Ian Harvie
mostly out of square tubing. Some of it looked like it was galvanized
which usually gives me no problem as the galvanizing burns off readily
when arc welded. This was impossible however and I found that the tubing
was getting quite hot even some distance from the welds. Yes it was
aluminum coated and it was conducting the heat much more readily than
steel would have. I ground as much of the aluminum off as I could but it
was still very hard to weld compared with the other tubing even though
it was rusted and old.
Ian
> <http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?souce=EML_WL_ GoodCause>
Larry Huntley
Steve Lawlor
Are you sure the parts are steel? The properties sound almost like a non
ferrous metal or cast iron will do the same when heated. Maybe, over the
years, the aluminum did something to the steel mixture???? Did you touch
the parts with a magnet?
Steve
Mark McAtee
Magnets stick to it.
This has been fun!!
Mark
"When landing a taildragger, all that matters is you touchdown straight - no drift/crab. You want to make sure your wreckage goes straight down the runway..."
> Are you sure the parts are steel? The properties sound almost like a non
> ferrous metal or cast iron will do the same when heated. Maybe, over the
> years, the aluminum did something to the steel mixture???? Did you touch
> the parts with a magnet?
> Steve
>
Make every e-mail and IM count. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft.
Ladd, Brooks (ITD)
Steve brings up an issue I'll need info on. In 1984 there is an entry in the aircraft log where my dad mentions "all tubing drilled and tube-seal applied" after an unfortunate nose over on Moosehead Lake. Is "tube-seal" a brand name item or a generic name for the product? How will welding repairs be impacted by the presence of "tube-seal" and what can I do to minimize that impact if any?
Thanks,
-Brooks
________________________________
j...@joea.com
Hopefully "tube seal" is boiled linseed oil, which is what the Aeronca factory used.
Other than that who knows what you might find inside there!
Joe
On 1 Jun 2008 at 19:56, Ladd, Brooks (ITD) wrote:
> Thank you to all for sharing on this topic, it has been extremely helpful.
>
> Steve brings up an issue I'll need info on. In 1984 there is an entry in the aircraft log where my dad mentions "all tubing drilled and tube-seal applied" after an unfortunate nose over on Moosehead Lake. Is "tube-seal" a brand name item or a generic name for the product? How will welding repairs be impacted by the presence of "tube-seal" and what can I do to minimize that impact if any?
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Brooks
David Rude
| I recall "tube-seal" is the name for the Stits brand of tube oil. It is primarily linseed oil based. The heat from a gas torch can be used to burn it off in the area where you are welding, especially if you are TIGing. Usually there is no fluid to drain but if you have some drain it first. Dave Begin Attached Message---Thank you to all for sharing on this topic, it has been extremely helpful. |
|