Re: [f-AA] maximum crosswind for a Champ?

[Sam Burke]

John,

I am looking for a shot writeup that Tony Markl did a few years ago on crosswind landings with our Champs and Chiefs, anyone recall where is was?
Regards,
Sam Burke N6404C 1947 L16a C85
Santa Maria where I am scheduled to do some extreme crosswind landing as part of my BFR next week.
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[Bob Jacoby]

Sam,

Is this the article?

http://www.bellanca-championclub.com/WheelLandings.html

Bob in Jacksonville

1946 7AC

[Roger Anderson]

I'm a guy who thinks that 10 knots of direct crosswind has already taken the fun out of it.   My opinion is that back when these planes were being built, airplanes were intended to take off and land into the wind because most were still tail draggers.   You will notice most airports provided several runways so one of them was close to into the wind.  The military fields all had the triangle layout.  And of course the big grass airports frequently had land in any direction.   Don't let a CFI get you into extreme unless unless he/she is as good at it as they are requesting you to demonstrate.   For me, a BFR should instead include, "at what point do you park you airplane because it's too windy" .   roger

---

From: "Sam Burke" <samb...@verizon.net>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Cc: "Sam & Pat Burke" <samb...@verizon.net>, "Lane Tufts" <flyf...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2016 12:01:56 AM
Subject: Re: [f-AA] maximum crosswind for a Champ?

[Richard Murray]

Good advice Roger. To quote Clint Eastwood (dirty harry) "a man's got know his limitations"

Richard in OH installing reinforcing tape on the top of a wing

[Dale P. Jewett]

I certainly agree with Roger. Our little airplanes were not designed to handle much crosswind, and most fields in use at that time were rectangular grass where landing could always be made into the wind.

 

Dale Jewett

 

From: Aeronca [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Anderson
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2016 6:53 AM
To: Aeronca List, aeronca <aer...@westmont.edu>
Subject: Re: [f-AA] maximum crosswind for a Champ?

 

I'm a guy who thinks that 10 knots of direct crosswind has already taken the fun out of it.   My opinion is that back when these planes were being built, airplanes were intended to take off and land into the wind because most were still tail draggers.   You will notice most airports provided several runways so one of them was close to into the wind.  The military fields all had the triangle layout.  And of course the big grass airports frequently had land in any direction.   Don't let a CFI get you into extreme unless unless he/she is as good at it as they are requesting you to demonstrate.   For me, a BFR should instead include, "at what point do you park you airplane because it's too windy" .   roger

 

---

From: "Sam Burke" <samb...@verizon.net>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Cc: "Sam & Pat Burke" <samb...@verizon.net>, "Lane Tufts" <flyf...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2016 12:01:56 AM
Subject: Re: [f-AA] maximum crosswind for a Champ?

 

John,

 

I am looking for a shot writeup that Tony Markl did a few years ago on crosswind landings with our Champs and Chiefs, anyone recall where is was?
Regards,
Sam Burke N6404C 1947 L16a C85
Santa Maria where I am scheduled to do some extreme crosswind landing as part of my BFR next week.
_______________________________________________
Aeronca mailing list
Aer...@westmont.edu
http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

 

Virus-free. www.avast.com

[Roger Anderson]

Loved Dirty Harry!

Sent from my iPhone

[John Rodkey]

Well, 10 knots is certainly in the 'raises interest level' range.  After about 12 kts, it becomes difficult to prevent a groundloop, and above 15 kts, you just need to decide where your groundloop is going to happen.

You can reduce your xwind component by landing at an angle across a wider runway (like at Santa Maria's), if necessary

Think about it:  at 15 kts, (17 mph).  If you are landing into the wind, at 42 mph your groundspeed is 25 mph.

You'd do better to land across the Santa Maria runway if you can cross maintain a 55 mph approach. But you'd need to have very good control of your touchdown point. 

I'd say whenever the xwind component is above 10 kts, it might be wise to find another runway or a nearby grass field, or a taxiway conveniently aligned with the wind.

Note that the fun isn't over when you've gotten the airplane down and stopped on the runway:  now you have to get to your tiedown spot, and that may be extremely challenging.  I have experienced multiple occasions where the power available to the rudder isn't sufficient to swing the tail into the wind.  And you don't want to swing the tail around into the wind with the elevator positioned so that the wind will lift the tail (especially a problem if in a Champ with nobody in the back seat, not so much in a Chief with its heavier tailwheel weight). 

Bottom line:  although you fly for fun, and will probably avoid extreme  (> 10 kts xwind ) winds, there may be times that these conditions sneak up on you, for example when flying cross country or going somewhere, staying a while and coming back to the airport to find the winds have turned nasty.  In that case, do what you can to reduce the xwind component, be creative about landing options, and be willing to admit to ATC that landing on runway 30 when the wind is howling out of the north isn't going to end well for you.  Also, you might have to call for wing walkers to hold onto your struts when taxiing.

John

--

John (poobah) Rodkey - N9361E 11AC at Goleta

[danv...@gmail.com]

Sam

I have a lot of material I collected from Tony over the course of several years while he was mentoring me.  I can't seem to find anything specific to X wind landings. The previous post re wheel landings is an excellent example of how he incorporated several fundamental maneuvers and procedures into a comprehensive article on a topic. 

My perspective with regard to X winds is exactly as Roger's. I would also add that when I acquired my first Champ and only tail dragger, I searched for a reliable "official" source for the max demonstrated X wind component. There was none that I could find. But the "consensus standard" for aircraft without a published max demonstrated  X wind component is 0.2 x Stall Speed. 

That would compute to about 8 knots of X wind for a Champ. Of course the experienced and capable pilots on this list are scoffing and snorting. 

But there you have it. For the purpose of a BFR in your L-16, you can tell the CFI that you have determined the stall speed in landing configuration for your plane (which presumably you have done) and calculated the maximum X wind limit. And that you have set that as your personal minimum (or maximum in this case.) This discussion on the ground should keep you from having to attempt landing in X winds in excess of your comfort zone. It could even prevent another jig-inducing event and protect you CFI from a very difficult conversation with folks from the local FSDO. 

Good luck,

Dan v

PS. IMO you might give some deep second thought to actually doing a flight review with a CFI who is expose you to "extreme crosswind landing."

On May 8, 2016, at 7:52 AM, Roger Anderson <11...@comcast.net> wrote:

I'm a guy who thinks that 10 knots of direct crosswind has already taken the fun out of it.   My opinion is that back when these planes were being built, airplanes were intended to take off and land into the wind because most were still tail draggers.   You will notice most airports provided several runways so one of them was close to into the wind.  The military fields all had the triangle layout.  And of course the big grass airports frequently had land in any direction.   Don't let a CFI get you into extreme unless unless he/she is as good at it as they are requesting you to demonstrate.   For me, a BFR should instead include, "at what point do you park you airplane because it's too windy" .   roger

---

[Doug Rounds]

I always figure "unless this flight is "necessary" STAY ON THE
GROUND....I have seen many over the years that brag about their
supreme airmanship only to see them bust their butts later....

>> John,
>> I am looking for a shot writeup that Tony Markl did a few years ago on
>> crosswind landings with our Champs and Chiefs, anyone recall where is
>> was?
>> Regards,
>> Sam Burke N6404C 1947 L16a C85
>> Santa Maria where I am scheduled to do some extreme crosswind landing as
>> part of my BFR next week.
>> _______________________________________________
>

[Doug Rounds]

Forgot to mention when a strong xwind is blowing--"Is This Trip Necessary"..
Roger here is a story--at O'Hare usually the wind was always not
exceeding your cross wind component regardless of the runway in use
according to the tower. But requires a center engine max thrust, a
right engine max thrust and the left engine just above idle thrust for
a take off with a right xwind.until you had rudder control speed on a
B727. Believe they had the xwind components tapped on the wall of all
aircraft.
A nose wheel aircraft has an advantage in an xwind especially on
landing you can land in a crab and on touch down the aircraft will
continue in the direction of flight down the run way, but it is hard
on tires, Saw a CV-880 nose whell rolled off the rim.
For excitment try a C-46 in an X-wind with those maybe wanna work
brakes... Doug

[j...@joea.com]

Along the same vein that Doug mentioned below...

As its coming up, for flights like I do to Middletown, I take a piece of string and run it along my
proposed route. Then look for the magenta airports (with no control tower, I want fuel and no
hassle) and finally out of those airports find those with a minimum of TWO runways.

This gives me FOUR chances to land into the wind. Better odds that way on a long cross
country!

Joe A

[Duane Fey]

I work in the building where it was filmed.  It's the only SF cop movie, that I know of, that actually used the real Hall of Justice as the police station. 

Duane

'46 Chief, N85981

[Sam Burke]

Thanks for the input friends,

You have given me some input to talk with my CFI about in the morning.

Regards,
Sam

[Roger Anderson]

Hey Doug.  The airmen flying into ORD were nothing short of amazing.  I'm sure they took their aviation skills with them to other airports, but I don't think the other airports ever had the superb display of those skill like we got at ORD.  727s were great.  I learned I could slow them to 170 on the downwind, keep them at seven until just past the departures climbing to six, then turn them a 5 mile base, clear them on down, and they could fall like a brick getting down from that close in.  It was priming the pump, getting their speed back and getting them dirty.  Getting them, actually all the jets,  slowed did something else that controllers at so many other airports never figured out I don't think.  At 170 you could reach the aircraft's maximum permitted bank angle and that would give the good rate of turn we frequently needed to hit a gap on final.  If we left you fast and gave a turn, you would max out your bank angle, but the rate of turn would still be slow.  During my time at ORD, we had an excellent group of aviators and planes to work with.  We still had Frontier and North Central with their Convairs, Air Willy with their DHC7s, the 727s, and the list goes on I guess.  I did know the stretched eights and L1011s  needed to have time to slow some earlier than some of the others.  If they could get slowed to two ten while about fifteen or so out, they were pretty happy campers then.  I can remember so many time with 727s, early 737s, etc, things like, "hold two fifty, descend to three, and I'll give you time to slow when you get down...promise".  Or this common phrase as you are inbound still at seven on the localizer, "United two eighty three, leave seven on the glide slope, cleared approach, hold two fifty as long as you can, not below one seventy to the marker, tower at the marker."  And so frequently you'd be on the downwind and only one hole on the many miles long final, a six mile gap saved for you.  But that gap was going to be near the airport before you got out and down to use it.  That's when even running visuals, we would control you all the way to the turn onto the final.  We had to hit that slot exactly, with one 3 ahead of you and one 3 behind you.  Even with you reporting traffic and the airport, we had to get you slowed (previous reasons), down, and give those last moment, so closely timed turns into that gap.  Then, spacing assured on the final, "follow that traffic, cleared for the visual".  That's why they controllers were so non stop chatter.  Had to control the frequency for these "seconds critical" instructions.   Getting a long winded response or having the frequency blocked could really make a mess out of our collective issue.  

The Captains insured it was done right I think.  I was jump seat on a UAL 727 inbound to ORD.  We were on a long final out past the lakefront, huge string of traffic, 3 miles spacing on all.  First office flying the approach.  We were one seventy assigned to the marker.  Capt put a scrap of paper on the panel in front of the FO.  It said, FTFA.  FO looked at it.  Puzzled look.  Finally "what?"  Capt said in no uncertain terms "FLY THE F...ing AIRSPEED!!".  A FO now would need to go find his/her "safe space"  if that happened I bet.     Know I've told this.    Heard one of our controllers say this.  "United two eighty three, slow to one seventy and do it NOW.  You're just a skinny three behind the traffic ahead".  United said, "We're pulling her back now...but what's the difference between three and a skinny three?"  Controller,"about a mile and a half !"   

And in conclusion, I went out to the airport yesterday.  Not a construction crew in sight.   Barricades still blocking taxiways out of the hangers.   I taxied past them, went flying, had a nice time.   That concludes my babbling for this morning.     roger

---

From: "Doug Rounds" <captg...@gmail.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2016 12:27:35 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] maximum crosswind for a Champ?

[j...@joea.com]

Good info Roger!!

Larger airports still do that to us in the Learjet but then they know we can handle it...

Joe A

> From: "Doug Rounds" <captg...@gmail.com>
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2016 12:27:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [f-AA] maximum crosswind for a Champ?
>
> Forgot to mention when a strong xwind is blowing--"Is This Trip Necessary"..
> Roger here is a story--at O'Hare usually the wind was always not
> exceeding your cross wind component regardless of the runway in use
> according to the tower. But requires a center engine max thrust, a
> right engine max thrust and the left engine just above idle thrust for
> a take off with a right xwind.until you had rudder control speed on a
> B727. Believe they had the xwind components tapped on the wall of all
> aircraft.
> A nose wheel aircraft has an advantage in an xwind especially on
> landing you can land in a crab and on touch down the aircraft will
> continue in the direction of flight down the run way, but it is hard
> on tires, Saw a CV-880 nose whell rolled off the rim.
> For excitment try a C-46 in an X-wind  with those maybe wanna work
> brakes... Doug
>
>

[Doug Rounds]

Joe you are right never had a problem with the mix of small private
jets -- except taxing behind them in a L-1011 if I got to close and
couldn't see them over the nose. It happens in busy airports. So it is
set the brakes time. Doug

[Doug Rounds]

Previous--had to watch especially at night in airports like ORD with
all the taxiway, intersections and misc ground lights.

[Scott Johnson]

Doug, it's still a cluster. Sure miss the 727, but I never got used to it out of MDW. First takeoff on IOE, hot day kid counts, all the tricks to make the numbers work. We go blasting out on 31C, rotate with about 1500 feet remaining, main trucks come off about 700' to go.  We go screaming over Cicero Ave at a height generally known as "not much" over the parking lot then  make the left turn out for th departure. The check airman looks over at me and says "boy I bet we set some car alarms off on that one!" 

The good ole days. 

Scott

[Tony Buttacavoli]

Same , same at Vegas off of 25R eating up 12500 feet of a 14000 foot runway,on max allowable takeoff weight 110 degree F days, staggering off the runway, shouting "Fore" in unison as we strafed the golf course that bordered the departure end of said runway, turning away from the hills that loomed in the west, and not relaxing till we had 10000 feet under our seats, safely east and DTW bound, 727 days....

Sent from my iPhone

[Doug Rounds]

Scott
They all were--especially the CV-340/440, DC-6/7/ DC-9-32 all gave a
neighborhood tour on departure. Flew with one Captain on DC-7 when I
was a co-pilot that was a preacher and about lift off on Sunday he
would release controls, look at me and begin praying. He quit early
but in the mean time a group put his airport car on cement blocks in
front of the general office. Couldn't do it today but that was in the
early days. Alot of stories that are not Politically Correct Today
that made the airline..Little do todays new folks know..All the
pistons could use help and a prayer on hot days at MDW.. The original
WWII guys that I flew with created an atmosphere that made you want to
go to work every day and find out what the new idea ceation was..The
airline transition from total pistons without wx radar and engine
belches to jets was another story. Got involved in it all. Today with
political correctness and fly by wire a good thing is ruined and you
wouldn't recognize it. Son and Grandson keep me posted.. Doug

On 5/9/16, Scott Johnson <sko...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Doug, it's still a cluster. Sure miss the 727, but I never got used to it
> out of MDW. First takeoff on IOE, hot day kid counts, all the tricks to
> make the numbers work. We go blasting out on 31C, rotate with about 1500
> feet remaining, main trucks come off about 700' to go. We go screaming
> over Cicero Ave at a height generally known as "not much" over the parking
> lot then make the left turn out for th departure. The check airman looks
> over at me and says "boy I bet we set some car alarms off on that one!"
>
> The good ole days.
>
> Scott
>
> On Monday, May 9, 2016, Doug Rounds <captg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Previous--had to watch especially at night in airports like ORD with
>> all the taxiway, intersections and misc ground lights.
>>

>> On 5/9/16, Doug Rounds <captg...@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
>> > Joe you are right never had a problem with the mix of small private
>> > jets -- except taxing behind them in a L-1011 if I got to close and
>> > couldn't see them over the nose. It happens in busy airports. So it is
>> > set the brakes time. Doug
>> >

>> > On 5/9/16, j...@joea.com <javascript:;> <j...@joea.com <javascript:;>>

>> >> Aer...@westmont.edu <javascript:;>

>> >> http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca
>> >>
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Aeronca mailing list

>> Aer...@westmont.edu <javascript:;>

[Dale P. Jewett]

Scott,

 

Not being an airline type pilot, I am puzzled by: “First takeoff on IOE, hot day kid counts,…” How about interpreting that for us little guys?

 

Dale Jewett

Virus-free. www.avast.com

[Doug Rounds]

IOE-- Initial Operting Experience--that means Scott just checked out
in the real equipment (airplane) after simulator training and is
getting his feet wet in the real world. He will have more stories.
Sorry to answer, but it was automatic after doing so many as a check
airman. Doug

On 5/10/16, Dale P. Jewett <dal...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Scott,
>
>
>
> Not being an airline type pilot, I am puzzled by: “First takeoff on IOE, hot
> day kid counts,…” How about interpreting that for us little guys?
>
>
>
> Dale Jewett
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Aeronca [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of Scott
> Johnson
> Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 9:28 PM
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> Subject: Re: [f-AA] ####Doug and ORD...
>
>
>
> Doug, it's still a cluster. Sure miss the 727, but I never got used to it
> out of MDW. First takeoff on IOE, hot day kid counts, all the tricks to make
> the numbers work. We go blasting out on 31C, rotate with about 1500 feet
> remaining, main trucks come off about 700' to go. We go screaming over
> Cicero Ave at a height generally known as "not much" over the parking lot
> then make the left turn out for th departure. The check airman looks over
> at me and says "boy I bet we set some car alarms off on that one!"
>
> The good ole days.
>
>
>
> Scott
>
>
> On Monday, May 9, 2016, Doug Rounds <captg...@gmail.com

> <mailto:captg...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>
> Previous--had to watch especially at night in airports like ORD with
> all the taxiway, intersections and misc ground lights.
>

> On 5/9/16, Doug Rounds <captg...@gmail.com <javascript:;> > wrote:
>> Joe you are right never had a problem with the mix of small private
>> jets -- except taxing behind them in a L-1011 if I got to close and
>> couldn't see them over the nose. It happens in busy airports. So it is
>> set the brakes time. Doug
>>

>> On 5/9/16, j...@joea.com <javascript:;> <j...@joea.com <javascript:;> >

>>> Aer...@westmont.edu <javascript:;>

>>> http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Aeronca mailing list

> Aer...@westmont.edu <javascript:;>
> http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca
>
>
>
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