NoBounce Landing Gear Overhaul May be needed

[Sam Burke, Aeronca L16a, N6404C, C85]

Hi Friends,

I made a hard landing a few days ago and was able to break a steel tubing joint above the right main gear. I will post a photo later. I am thinking that the right oleo (no-bounce) may not be funtional. Since I need to do some work on my craft, this may be a good time to have the oleo struts overhauled by someone that knows how to do the job. Any advise?

Regards,
Sam Burke  N6404C 1947 L16a C85
805 6982791 cel

[Rafael]

David rude did an excellent job rebuilding the ole case frames for my 38

Rafael

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[Richard Jeffryes]

They are easy to rebuild, unlike the regular oleo they tear down completely. Wag Aero has the parts. The hardest thing is getting the right amount of oil inside after the rebuild.

 

Richard in Creswell, been there a couple of times

[Paul Anton]

They are easy to rebuild, unlike the regular oleo they tear down completely. Wag Aero has the parts. The hardest thing is getting the right amount of oil inside after the rebuild.

 

I used a large plastic hypodermic to squirt the 5606 in. I pre-measured the required quantity  and with the syringe filling was easy.

 

[dan vandermeer]

Sam

The Air Corps developed a repair manual for the L-16A&B. They are available from several sources including the type clubs and Todd Trainor's Aeronca Museum. If not already part of your library, get a copy and read the section on gear repair. 

Incidents involving landing gear may not be trivial. Be sure to carefully examine the fuselage tubing cluster between the gear struts and the struts themselves.  

Please don't ask how a non-AP knows this. 

Good luck

Dan v

[Richard Murray]

I have a set of no-bounce oleos on my 7ECA and the previous owner remarked how great the overhaul was by David Rude.  They always had issues with it trying to swap ends and after the overhaul could not believe the stability.

Richard in OH who could not get more than 6.5 ounces to go into the oleo

[Cy Galley]

Call David Rude (919-365-3063) or email dlrude@ excite  for Oleo rebuilds.  He's the expert!

 

 

Cy Galley - Chairman of Emergency Aircraft Repair

A service project of EAA Chapter 75

[Robert McDonald]

You should talk to Dave Rude who is on this list, he rebuilds Aeronca oleos. I'm sure somebody here can provide contact info.

Rob

[Scott Johnson]

David did our oleos when we had the champ and did a great job. Worth every penny

Scott, who has been out fished by his wife this week. Stupid Walleye. 

[Sam Burke]

Thanks for all of the input Rafael, Rob, Cy, Richard, Dan, Scott and Paul

I will contact David Rue and the price will determine if he does the job or I attempt it. Paul, how long did it take you when you did your no-bouince struts the first time?

I will send a few photos of the broken tube soon.

Regards,
Sam N6404C 1947 L16a

[Paul Anton]

It didn't take much time at all. In my case everything was in excellent
shape. All I did was clean, inspect, replace the packing and reassemble. I
used a large plastic hypodermic to force the 5606 into the strut.

Paul

. Paul, how long did it take you when you did your no-bouince struts the
first time?

[Richard Murray]

Paul

Did you thread the hypodermic or a hose from it into the strut to keep the oil contained until the strut was filled?

Richard in OH

[John Rodkey]

Reminder:  the regular oleo gets filled all the way with oil, but the low bounce has a specific amount...

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--
John (poobah) Rodkey - N9361E 11AC at Goleta

[Paul Anton]

The strut was off the plane upside down. The plastic hypo was large enough to just stick the end into the pip threaded hole.

 

Paul

 

From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of Richard Murray
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2014 8:39 AM
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] NoBounce Landing Gear Overhaul May be needed

 

Paul

[Stephen Briggs]

Write up on filling the NoBounce oleo.

Steve

For no bounce they take 8.5 oz.  of H5606. It does not come up to the top with 8.5 oz and the oleo vertical (upside down as well). Service letter #42  describes how the oil level will be 3-1/8" below the cylinder end when it is full. (I think there is a typo and they mean 3-1/8" from the fill hole. You can make a dipstick from a 1/16 welding rod to measure that. BUT ... sometimes the oil level appears higher if there is air trapped below the piston so you should be sure that you wiggle and jiggle all the air out before believing that dipstick.

---

From: n22...@hotmail.com
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 10:28:48 -0700

Subject: Re: [f-AA] NoBounce Landing Gear Overhaul May be needed

The strut was off the plane upside down. The plastic hypo was large enough to just stick the end into the pip threaded hole.

 

Paul

 

From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of Richard Murray
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2014 8:39 AM
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] NoBounce Landing Gear Overhaul May be needed

 

Paul

 

Did you thread the hypodermic or a hose from it into the strut to keep the oil contained until the strut was filled?

 

Richard in OH

 

On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Paul Anton <n22...@hotmail.com> wrote:

It didn't take much time at all. In my case everything was in excellent
shape. All I did was clean, inspect, replace the packing and reassemble. I
used a large plastic hypodermic to force the 5606 into the strut.

Paul

 

[Sam Burke]

Here are three photos showing the broken steel tube on the right side door frame. What next?

[Dale P. Jewett]

Sam,

Wow, that is at a bad place to repair. It seems to be where the tube
intersected a cluster. It can be repaired, but will need fabric removed in
that area, and a really good welder to repair in accordance with the
procedures outlined in the 43.13.

When I restored my 1939 Stinson HW75, it had damage in a similar area, but
the fabric was all removed, and I put the fuselage in a jig that I could
turn in several positions to facilitate/position the welding repair. I am a
pretty proficient oxy/acet. welder, and I did all of the welding repair
myself with overseeing by my A&P-IA friend. He admitted that my welding was
better than what he could have done.

Good luck.

Dale Jewett

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[danvdmeer]

Sam
Ouch! I've seen this kind of damage twice on Champs. I agree with Dale's comments. In addition I suggest removing the fabric from beneath the doors from side to side and carefully examining the entire gear and related fuselage structures and attachment points. Make repairs as described in part 41 as Dale said. The Army L16 repair manual and the Champ manual are very good additional sources of repair info. Check the gear struts and axles for bending or twisting. The manual explicitly recommended replacing gear struts displaced 3" or more (I think). Getting the the entire gear properly repaired, replaced on the plane and adjusted/aligned will go far toward preventing a recurrence.
Check the lift strut and strut attachments for damage and the spar at the attachment point for compression damage or cracking.
And I really hope the prop was not involved in the incident.
Dan v

> On Jun 15, 2014, at 11:50, Sam Burke <samb...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Here are three photos showing the broken steel tube on the right side door frame. What next?
>
> Sam Burke N6404C 1947 L16a C85

> <IMG_1620.jpg>
> <IMG_1708.jpg>
> <IMG_1623.JPG>

[Sam Burke]

Thanks Dale, I hope to get this repaired soon. Looks like I will be getting a crash course in welding, painting and fabric application!

Sam N6304C 1947 L16a


Sent from my iPhone

[Mark Zimmermann]

> This is of the many reasons that I opted for one of Bill Pancake's restorations. I read somewhere that Aeronca provided no corrosion protection behind the door frames and the spot welds needed to be cut and the issue addressed. Coincidence?

[j...@joea.com]

John Rodkey posted on the Facebook page about these photos that he might want to take
the plane to Glenn Miller in that area. Glenn is an expert in this area...

Totally agree as this is verging on a MAJOR repair and not something that should be
attempted by anyone who has not done this before. Would really like to see the plane placed
in a fuselage jig as getting these gear clusters back in position can be tricky and if its not
done correctly the plane may not be controllable on the ground...

Joe A

On 15 Jun 2014 at 13:14, danvdmeer wrote:

[Sam Burke]

Thanks for the words of wisdom Joe and Dan. Do you two think this may have been the result of an ineffective oleo strut on the right side? What can you tell me about Glen Miller's shop?
Regards
Sam Burke N6404C 1947 Aeronca L16a

[j...@joea.com]

It would be better to ask Tom Holmes of the group. He has had extensive work done by
Glenn's shop and knows him very well.

Believe that Glenn is the one who at times hand-makes wing stuts for the pre-war Aeronca's
so he is pretty good.

Could be a number of things that helped this happen. Old tubing, possibly a bit of rust inside,
a poor previous repair, one or numerous hard landings or a stuck landing gear strut... or a
combination of all of the above.

Need to get it apart to tell but truthfully I would be contacting my insurance company as this
will be a major (and possibly expensive) repair.

Joe A

On 15 Jun 2014 at 13:33, Sam Burke wrote:

From: Sam Burke <samb...@verizon.net>
Date sent: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 13:33:34 -0700
To: Aeronca Aviators <aer...@westmont.edu>
Copies to: Lane Tufts <flyf...@gmail.com>, Dick Fischer
<dick.f...@me.com>,
Don Noonan <dh...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [f-AA] NoBounce Landing Gear Overhaul May be needed

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[dan vandermeer]

Sam
I can't venture guess as to the specific cause. Rust, corrosion, metal fatigue, some crazy unnatural stress just at the time of touch down? Who knows?
The two incidents I am familiar with were: 1. A brake failure locking a wheel on landing causing the Champ to veer into a runway light. The repairs were done by a very experienced AP/IA. A hydraulic brake conversion was done at the same time. And 2. A loss of control on take off causing the Champ to fly thru a stand of small trees and a chain link fence. This was a major incident. The repairs (really a restoration involving engine and air frame) was done as a quasi EAA chapter project over a 28 month period.
As I was rethinking your predicament it occurred to me that you should also check the wheel(s) for damage. Most Champ wheels are decades old and liable to crack under stress. These cracks are often almost impossible to detect on casual inspection. Such wearing could be either a cause or effect of your incident- to totally unrelated.
Dan
Sent from my iPhone

[Harvey Brock]

Uh, I think "crash course" is a bad choice of words when it comes to aircraft restoration.

[Thomas Holmes]

No pun intended!!  ;-)

Tom

[Thomas Holmes]

Sam,

Glenn's shop is located at the Selma, CA airport.  Glenn has a Champ fuselage jig and is an expert at gear cluster repairs.  He has done two airplanes for me (Champ and L3) , and his work is pretty.

Tom

[Thomas Holmes]

Joe,

Pete Plumb at Shafter, CA airport is the guy that does the lift strut work.  Another craftsman, but doesn't have a fuselage jig.

Tom

[John Rodkey]

Would it be feasible to cut out the bent/broken tubing members and weld in replacements without a jig?

Sam, it looks like you might need to get the insurance company involved on this one...

[j...@joea.com]

John,

Only if you stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night and were feeling very lucky.

Personally I would not try it... alignment in this area is too critical.

Joe A

On 15 Jun 2014 at 18:16, John Rodkey wrote:

From: John Rodkey <pooba...@gmail.com>
Date sent: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 18:16:09 -0700
To: Aeronca Aviators <aer...@westmont.edu>
Subject: Re: [f-AA] NoBounce Landing Gear Overhaul May be needed

Send reply to: aer...@westmont.edu
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>

[John Rodkey]

That's kind of what I was thinking, but I was wondering if any of the mechanics on the list had done so and what they considered their success/failure was.

Let's go through a scenario for Sam:  If the determination was made that he needed to have it done on a jig, he would need to remove stabilzers, rudder, wings, cowling, and (to avoid dinging) the prop.

Load the fuselage into a u-haul or onto an open trailer, suitably tied down and protected from damage.

Haul it up to Selma.

Glenn would have to punch holes in the fabric at each alignment toggle/attach-point , strip fabric around areas with bent or broken tubing, cut away tubes, weld in new ones,  Glenn's availability/schedule would be a significant question here, since I'm pretty sure his real job keeps him hopping.

Then Glenn could patch the fabric or leave that to Sam.

Fuselage then returned to Sam for reassembly.

Did I miss anything? 

John

[Thomas Holmes]

John,

I think you need to bear in mind how much these airplanes have been thru previously.  The first Champ I put in Glenn's jig wouldn't fit in the jig.  Too crooked in too many places.  It ended up being a major effort, but landed like it was on rails afterward.  Recovering just the fuselage isn't a major project.  Glenn also has jigs for axles.  I would recommend that as well.  You can spend a lot of time and money getting the fuselage straight and the bent axles will muck up your landings just the same!!  ;-)  Don't ask me how I know that!!

Tom

[Robert McDonald]

Sam,

My Champ suffered the same kind of damage back in 2008. It turned out the tubes had rusted internally until they were paper thin in spots, then it got slammed on the ground. Since my fuselage was due for recovering anyway we stripped it completely and welded in new tubes in front of and at the bottom of the doorway. My mechanic did the repair without a jig and it flies and lands fine. Ron has done fuselage repairs and mods, and built tube fuselages for homebuilts, so this wasn't a first attempt at something like this for him. Is it perfect? I don't know. Certainly it would be best to use a jig if one is available. If the tubes prove to be significantly rusted, you really should do a detailed inspection of the rest of the fuselage.  BTW my insurer paid for everything related to the incident, and I just had to fund the other 2/3 of the cost of a fuselage rebuild.

Rob

On 14-06-15 09:16 PM, John Rodkey wrote:

[cgmi...@unwiredbb.com]

Hi Sam,

Sorry to here about your Champ. Looking at your
pictures, this is damage that I have repaired before.
As someone said this is not a repair to be made
without a jig. As it sits now your Main Landing Gear
fittings, Wing fittings, and Firewall fittings are
out of alinement. (The right front gear fitting and
the right front wing fitting have been shoved
together and pushed the right hand upper firewall
fitting forward.) There may also be other hidden
damage and I recommend uncovering the whole Fuselage.
The Crop Dusting business is slow right now (No water
for Farming!) and I am able to offer a pretty quick
turn around. I can do just the welding or the
complete repair.

Glenn Miller
7AC 81595



------- Original Message -------
From : Sam Burke[mailto:samb...@verizon.net]
Sent : 6/15/2014 8:50:21 AM
To : aer...@westmont.edu; flyf...@gmail.com;
dick.f...@me.com; dh...@yahoo.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: [f-AA] NoBounce Landing Gear
Overhaul May be needed

Here are three photos showing the broken steel tube
on the right side door frame. What next?

Sam Burke N6404C 1947 L16a C85

[Cy Galley]

This is an offer I'd jump on!


Cy Galley - Chairman of Emergency Aircraft Repair
A service project of EAA Chapter 75

-----Original Message-----
From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On

[Stephen Briggs]

I think the suggestion get the fuselage into a jig is the right move, I have seen fuselages with similar damage that had bent tubing higher up under the fabric that won't show up unless bolted into a jug.   It could cause flight problems as well as taxi and landing issues.  These planes are hard enough to keep on the center line even when everything is straight and true.  :-)

Steve

---

From: pooba...@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 18:33:38 -0700
To: aer...@westmont.edu; cgmi...@lemoorenet.com

[John Rodkey]

Sure wish there was a way to ferry it there intact, but unless one is very skilled at landing on one landing gear, I don't see how.

[John Rodkey]

Very nice to hear from you, Glenn! 

Glenn, Sam's # is 805-698-2791

Sam, the numbers I have for Glenn are 559-495-1260 and 559-582-3774

Why don't you call each other and see if this works for you?

John

[j...@joea.com]

John,

After this accident there is no way that the insurance company would sign off on it.

Even trying to get a ferry permit, doubt that its legal to fly in this condition.

Joe A

[John Rodkey]

I know. Just speculating. I know I wouldn't fly it even if an ia signed it off and the instance company was ok with it. 

[Sam Burke]

Thanks Dan

I went ahead and filed a claim with my insurance company since this repair may become a bit more complex thank I had anticipated.  My first thought was to use a hammer to pound the broken and bent section together and then sand blast the area followed by some TIG time, a bit of paint, a small fabric section and a little bit of paper work filed out by my IA and back in the air, but it sounds like it could be a bit more complex!  Thanks for all the suggestions from the list, you are a real resource. I have attached a photo of the door frame break.

My insurance company told me that the premiums on my policy could go up if the claim is over $10,000. Who can tell with these old Champs!

Regards,
Sam N6404C 1947 L16a C85

Photo of door frame break;

 

 

 

 

Sam Burke
613 Aqueduct Way
Solvang, CA 93463

Tel: 805 6862323

 

On 06/15/14, dan vandermeer<danv...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Sam
I can't venture guess as to the specific cause. Rust, corrosion, metal fatigue, some crazy unnatural stress just at the time of touch down? Who knows?
The two incidents I am familiar with were: 1. A brake failure locking a wheel on landing causing the Champ to veer into a runway light. The repairs were done by a very experienced AP/IA. A hydraulic brake conversion was done at the same time. And 2. A loss of control on take off causing the Champ to fly thru a stand of small trees and a chain link fence. This was a major incident. The repairs (really a restoration involving engine and air frame) was done as a quasi EAA chapter project over a 28 month period.
As I was rethinking your predicament it occurred to me that you should also check the wheel(s) for damage. Most Champ wheels are decades old and liable to crack under stress. These cracks are often almost impossible to detect on casual inspection. Such wearing could be either a cause or effect of your incident- to totally unrelated.
Dan

Sent from my iPhone

[Jerry Eichenberger]

Sam –

What insurance company told you that?

Jerry E.

 

From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of Sam Burke
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2014 1:16 PM
To: danv...@gmail.com; aer...@westmont.edu; samb...@verizon.net; flyf...@gmail.com; dick.f...@mac.com
Subject: Re: [f-AA] NoBounce Landing Gear Overhaul May be needed

 

Thanks Dan

[Ginny Wilken]

Brings up an interesting question. My plane partner and I only carry liability on the Champ. My (life) partner is a retired IA, and we figured we could fix or get fixed just about anything ourselves. I feel lucky that we have an underwriter at all - I got the policy on the strength of my previous tri-gear record with them.

 

Are most of you carrying hull insurance?

--

Ginny Wilken

gwi...@fastmail.fm

 

 

 

On Mon, Jun 16, 2014, at 10:16 AM, Sam Burke wrote:

Thanks Dan

 

I went ahead and filed a claim with my insurance company since this repair may become a bit more complex

....

 

[Rich Dugger]

I am both on the Champ with partner and on my 172.
Thinking it protects either of  us if the other one wrecks it.
On mine I could have saved enough to buy a replacement by now.
Rich

[John Rodkey]

I added hull when I rebuilt the airplane.  It was liability only before that.

John

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[Roger Anderson]

I carry hull also.   But if I was an A&P/IA, and it was a fairly simple airplane, maybe not.  On our planes, labor would be the biggest cost in airframe repair probably.  However, both hull and liability are only about $530 for me.  roger

---

From: "John Rodkey" <pooba...@gmail.com>
To: "Aeronca List, aeronca" <aer...@westmont.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2014 4:10:59 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] NoBounce Landing Gear Overhaul May be needed

[Jerry Eichenberger]

I’ll talk about this issue at Middletown speech.

Do you realize that if you carry hull, damage the airplane, the insurer will pay you to fix it, if you’re an A&P?

 

From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of John Rodkey
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2014 5:11 PM
To: Aeronca Aviators
Subject: Re: [f-AA] NoBounce Landing Gear Overhaul May be needed

 

I added hull when I rebuilt the airplane.  It was liability only before that.

 

John

[Sam Burke]

Paul,
I just raised the olieos and removed the plug checking to see that I had a fluid level up to the top, which was the case. They may be over filled! What would that mean?

Sam N6404C 1947 L16a

[Sam Burke]

Thanks Steve,

How about removing the oleos and then draining them followed by a refill with the 8.5 oz of hydraulic fluid?

Sam N6404C

[Sam Burke]

John,

I went ahead and filed a preliminary claim in case this turns into a big dollar project. At this point it looks like a simple fix to me but I have learned to depend on others wisdom with these antique airplanes.

Sam N6404C 47 L16a C85

[Sam Burke]

John,

That sequence of events scares me!

Sam N6404C

[Sam Burke]

Joe,

I will try and get a jig down to my hanger in Santa Maria, wonder how hard that would be?

Regards,
Sam N6404C 47 L16a

[Sam Burke]

Rob,

Yes I was thinking about rust. If you look at the detailed photo of the broken weld joint you can see some rust in the area and note that part of the joint is not welded at all. You can see some paint came inside of the weld joint which should have been covered with a weld bead.

[Sam Burke]

Glen,

Thanks for responding to this list sequence, very educational for sure! My insurance company would like a preliminary estimate. You can email me off of the list.

Any chance of moving your jig over here to Santa Maria for the work?

By the way, I do see some rust at the broken weld joint (see one of the previous photos).

Regards,
Sam Burke N6404C 1947 L167a

[Sam Burke]

Cy

Thanks for the input. The bible says that wisdom comes through many counselors! I think I will take your advise.

Sam N6404C 47 L16a

[Sam Burke]

Thanks John

Sam

[Sam Burke]

Jerry,

Give me a call at 805 698-2791.

Sam N6404C 47 L16a

[Sam Burke]

Ginny,

My plan was to carry hull insurance for a few years while I get use to this L16a. Looks like I may need a few more years!

[Jerry Eichenberger]

I called, it went into voice mail.
Jerry

-----Original Message-----
From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of Sam Burke
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2014 10:41 PM
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Cc: Sam Burke
Subject: Re: [f-AA] NoBounce Landing Gear Overhaul May be needed

[Sam Burke]

Roger,

Well I am now paying around $950 with the added hull insurance. Had a prop stike a few years back which may have bumped it up a bit since the cost was a bit over 10k!

[Sam Burke]

Jerry,

I may be out of cel range now!

Sam

[Jerry Eichenberger]

Call me Wed. 614-798-1600 office number during EDT business hours.

-----Original Message-----
From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of Sam Burke
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2014 10:48 PM
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] NoBounce Landing Gear Overhaul May be needed

[j...@joea.com]

Sam,

There are very few Aeronca Champ jig's in existance. Three that I know of and only one on
the West Coast.

Best to take the airplane to the jig as I am guessing that the owner of the jig is not going to
loan or rent it out...Besides he has a lot of experience fixing fuselages, something that I am
guessing is in somewhat short supply at your home airport.

Get an expert to do it right the first time and you will be happy.

Joe A

On 16 Jun 2014 at 19:25, Sam Burke wrote:

From: Sam Burke <samb...@verizon.net>
Date sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 19:25:12 -0700
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Copies to: Sam Burke <samb...@verizon.net>, Lane Tufts
<flyf...@gmail.com>,
Dick Fischer <dick.f...@me.com>

Subject: Re: [f-AA] NoBounce Landing Gear Overhaul May be needed

Send reply to: aer...@westmont.edu, Sam Burke <samb...@verizon.net>
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[Aeronca Flyer]

Rainbow Ron is in Washington.

Richard in Creswell, Oregon, aka California's Canada

[John Rodkey]

Also, I don't know if you've seen a fuselage jig, but it's a large, permanent fixture, made out of huge hunks of metal, and shipping it is not really an option.

[Rainbow Flying Service]

I have a fuselage jig in Moses Lake Washington and apparently there is one in Selma California. ro...@qosi.net           -------Original Message-------

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[j...@joea.com]

Good to know that there are two of them on the West Coast.

Joe A

On 16 Jun 2014 at 21:42, Rainbow Flying Service wrote:

Date sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 21:42:33 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
From: "Rainbow Flying Service" <ro...@qosi.net>
To: "aer...@westmont.edu (aer...@westmont.edu)" <aer...@westmont.edu>

Subject: Re: [f-AA] NoBounce Landing Gear Overhaul May be needed
Send reply to: aer...@westmont.edu

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[Sam Burke]

Ok Joe and John,

You have conviinced me about this jig, it sure would be nice to see a photo of one of these. I was just trying to avoid taking the wings off of my Champ by having the jig come down here. Ok scratch that idea.

Regards,
Sam N6404C 1947 L16a

[Mark Peterson]

 

 

> From: samb...@verizon.net
> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 22:52:12 -0700
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> CC: samb...@verizon.net; flyf...@gmail.com; dick.f...@me.com
> Subject: Re: [f-AA] NoBounce Landing Gear Overhaul May be needed
>

[Richard Murray]

Mark,

Your picture will save a thousand words.....;))

Whose jig is pictured?

Richard in OH where the humidity arrived yesterday necessitating the activation of the air conditioning  for the summer

[Sam Burke]

You are correct Joe, thanks
Sam

Sent from my iPhone

[Ginny Wilken]

Um, I'm feeling smug right now, knowing that Moses Lake is pretty darn close, should we ever need him. Ron, I'll have to visit for the heck of it sometime.

 

ginny, in Sequim

 

--

Ginny Wilken

gwi...@fastmail.fm

 

Email had 1 attachment:

• FittingNewTubesinFrontHalfJig.jpg
  
•   204k (image/jpeg)
  

 

[Mark Zimmermann]

Are there prints for the jig or are they built from the fuse drawings? We prolly could use one in TX.

On Jun 17, 2014, at 1:31 AM, Mark Peterson <mrpet...@msn.com> wrote:

 

<FittingNewTubesinFrontHalfJig.jpg>

 

[Thomas Holmes]

Sam,

the fuselage jig is bigger than the fuselage, and much heavier.  Probably close to a ton.

Tom

[Richard Murray]

Mark,

I read a rebuild story of a Champ in Houston and I had the impression there was a jig in that area.

This was the site I read about it  http://aeroncachamp.com/

Richard in OH who heard Bill See in Centerburg OH might have a jig.

[joer...@suddenlink.net]

---- Mark Zimmermann <fmarkzi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Are there prints for the jig or are they built from the fuse drawings? We prolly could use one in TX.
>

Most jigs are constructed around a pristine, undamaged bare fuselage. So the jig is as good as the fuselage it was built around and as good as the skills of the builder. The repaired fuselage will be as straight as the jig and the skills of the mechanic doing the repair. None of it is quick and easy or simple.
Also there are several articles on the NAA website about fuselage repairs, most of them with pictures. Search "fuselage repair" and 'fuselage jig". Here is a sequence on repairing a Champ fuselage by Brian Safran to start you off. jrh

http://www.joea.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5205&hilit=fuselage+repair

[j...@joea.com]

And I might add to Joe's post that Brian Safran owns Bill Pancake's old Champ fuselage jig.

The size and weight of this jig is something that you have to see in person to appreciate. It
could be moved by truck but would take a large forklift and then once in its new location
would take a pristine Champ fuselage to be placed in the jig to confirm/adjust the attach
points.

This is not something that you just move around from airport to airport...

Joe A

On 17 Jun 2014 at 10:08, joer...@suddenlink.net wrote:

Date sent: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 10:08:09 -0400
From: <joer...@suddenlink.net>
To: aer...@westmont.edu

Subject: Re: [f-AA] NoBounce Landing Gear Overhaul May be needed

Send reply to: aer...@westmont.edu
<mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu?subject=unsubscribe>
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>

[j...@joea.com]

Sam,

The wings will need to be removed as the jig uses the landing gear attach points on the
bottom, then the wing attach points on the top as its main attach points in the front.

Now that a photo of the jig has been posted believe you will get a better idea of just how
massive the jig is and where it attaches to the fuselage.

The one positive thing about getting your fuselage into a jig and repaired correctly is that
once it comes out, you know 100% that the fuselage is straight and true. They usually fly and
land much better after this is done.

Joe A

On 16 Jun 2014 at 22:52, Sam Burke wrote:

From: Sam Burke <samb...@verizon.net>
Date sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 22:52:12 -0700
To: Aeronca Aviators <aer...@westmont.edu>
Copies to: Sam Burke <samb...@verizon.net>, Lane Tufts
<flyf...@gmail.com>,
Dick Fischer <dick.f...@me.com>

Subject: Re: [f-AA] NoBounce Landing Gear Overhaul May be needed

Send reply to: aer...@westmont.edu, Sam Burke <samb...@verizon.net>
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[Richard Holcombe]

In this type of situation, it is far better to "bite the bullet", spend the money and get it over with. Afterward you will have years to enjoy the job done right. Same with a proper engine overhaul. You don't  ever get your money back, even when you finally sell, but the feeling of flying a plane fixed right is grand indeed.

--

Not all who wander are lost.

[Jerry Jackson]

Richard, James Osborne was rebuilding Aeroncas in Houston but he died from a car accident. I think his dad closed the business and I don’t know what tool/jigs he had and I don’t know where they went. Carl White (on this list) knew them well and may be able tell the rest of the story.

 

Jerry

San Antonio

 

---------------------

[dan vandermeer]

Sam
If you must take your wings off, consider replacing the front spar attachments. These are so critical that Aeronca emphasized that they never be welded or otherwise repaired. Wag sells the part- almost $300/pair. But cheap if they save your bacon. Theses attachments were cracked in 2 of 3 repairs and rebuilds I've been involved with.
Dan v

[Duane Fey]

Now that’s pretty freakin’ cool!

 

Duane

[Aeronca Flyer]

I've had a fuselage in Bill's jig after he sold it and it went to Montana. I'd tell what a wonderful piece of work it is, but you all know that because Bill made it.

Richard in Creswell, with only 1 bent airframe left to fix

[Mark Peterson]

This is the one area where I will admit that the 7 crowd has it over the 11 crowd.  Because the 7 series is still in production and there are still new
ones being built out of the same jigs, there is enough call for several jigs to be out here.     We Chief fliers don't have a Chief jig around, at least to
my knowledge.    With a thousand Chiefs around, you probably wouldn't get a lot of call for one, but who knows.... if you had one, there would always be
1000 Chiefs around since you could always rebuild.    I think Sedans are covered by Burl in AK, right?

---

[Thomas Holmes]

Mark,

Glenn Miller was building a Chief jig, but I don't know if he ever finished it.  He was looking for a straight Chief fuselage to test it the last time I saw him.

It is not a trivial undertaking.  Two of the four airplanes I put in Glenn's jig were so crooked that they wouldn't fit in the jig.  Out comes the die grinder and down goes your heart!!  I had to leave the building!!  Pieces were falling like rain!!  ;-)

Tom, who flies the straightest L3 in creation., AND is getting in the car to head for MWO!!

[Rainbow Flying Service]

I would love to meet you          -------Original Message-------

FREE Animations for Your Email! Click Here!

[Sam Burke]

Tom

While reading your email regarding hull alighnment you might look at this photo showing a seperation of about 1/2 inch at the wind screen joint at the forward cowl. This must mean that the weight of the engine forced the frame down during my landing.

[Aeronca Flyer]

I have 2 rusty but straight Chief fuselages, in Creswell for the taking.

Richard in Creswell, who would like to get them out of the barn

[Richard Murray]

Sam,

I'd bet you have a lot of bent tubes if the wraparound pulled that much. 

Richard in OH who has just replaced the wraparound on a 7ECA

[Mark Zimmermann]

I think you are mighty fortunate in that there was no one hurt in this incident. And, no more damage than there is to the airplane. Only by the grace of God. I'd certainly be down on my knees!! Good job saving this one. I wouldn't say hard landing, I'd say a skilled operator doing what has to be done with what he has to work with!

> <IMG_1706.JPG>

[j...@joea.com]

Mark,

ACA holds the type certificate for both the Chief and Champ. They have done absolutely
nothing with the Chief TC in all the years that they have had it.

I believe that all of the Pre-War aircraft, except for those owned by Mr. Gore, are owned by
the National Aeronca Association. They were given to us by the Aeronca factory years ago...

Joe A

On 17 Jun 2014 at 8:56, Mark Peterson wrote:

From: Mark Peterson <mrpet...@msn.com>
To: The Fearless Aeronca Aviators <aer...@westmont.edu>
Date sent: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 08:56:37 -0700
Subject: Re: [f-AA] NoBounce Landing Gear Overhaul May be needed - Now Jigs
Send reply to: aer...@westmont.edu
<mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu?subject=unsubscribe>
<mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu?subject=subscribe>

[Sam Burke]

Tom

What is the wraparound?  Is it the section of one inch wide aluminum revited to the cowl? 

Sam N6404C  1947 L16a

 

 

 

Sam Burke
613 Aqueduct Way
Solvang, CA 93463

Tel: 805 6862323

 

On 06/17/14, Richard Murraycom> wrote:

 

Sam,

I'd bet you have a lot of bent tubes if the wraparound pulled that much. 

Richard in OH who has just replaced the wraparound on a 7ECA

[Mark Peterson]

The wraparound is what we call the boot cowl....between the engine cowling and the start of the fabric covering.

---

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 12:45:51 -0500
From: samb...@verizon.net
To: murra...@gmail.com; aer...@westmont.edu; samb...@verizon.net

Subject: Re: [f-AA] NoBounce Landing Gear Overhaul May be needed

Tom

What is the wraparound?  Is it the section of one inch wide aluminum revited to the cowl? 

Sam N6404C  1947 L16a

 

 

 

Sam Burke
613 Aqueduct Way
Solvang, CA 93463

Tel: 805 6862323

 

On 06/17/14, Richard Murray<murray45822@gmail.com></murray45822@ wrote:

 

Sam,

I'd bet you have a lot of bent tubes if the wraparound pulled that much. 

Richard in OH who has just replaced the wraparound on a 7ECA

On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 3:22 AM, Sam Burke <samb...@verizon.net> wrote:

Tom

While reading your email regarding hull alighnment you might look at this photo showing a seperation of about 1/2 inch at the wind screen joint at the forward cowl. This must mean that the weight of the engine forced the frame down during my landing.

Regards,
Sam N6404C 47 L16a

[Mark Peterson]

Yep, I know.  I was talking about the need for aftermarket repair jigs....

I'm guessing that the Chief jigs disappeared sometime in 1960.   Champion got the Aeronca
7 jigs, but what happened to the 11 series jigs?

[Sam Burke]

Thanks Mark

Thanks for sending the photo of the Champ JIG, that is quite a structure! It definitely does not look very portable. I would assume that the hull under test slips in from the rear and if it does not fit you get your torch and sledge hammer out!

Regards,
Sam N6404C 1947 L16a

[Sam Burke]

Joe,

Thanks for the JIG photo, wow that is quite a structure for sure. Yes I can see that it is not very portable.

Regards,
Sam Burke N67404C 1947 L16a C85

[Sam Burke]

Richard
Thanks for the encouraging comments with regards to getting my L16a into a JIG. Looking forward to the experience. Did you make it to Flabob this year?
Regards,
Sam N6404C

[Sam Burke]

Dan,

Do you have the part number for the spar attachments?

[Sam Burke]

Richard

I looked at the tubes around the fuel tank area and next to where the engine mount bolts on and the tubes look ok. I guess it is hard to tell with the naked eye. I am starting to see why this JIG is important.

Sam N6404C 1947 L16a C85

[Sam Burke]

Thanks Mark

Yes I know that God is watching over me, thank you Lord. It does seem that each landing with this L16a is a new learning experience!

Regards,