[f-AA] Control cable fairleads

[Rafael]

Oh wise ones!! what is the pre-war drawing for the fairleads needed here? Rafael

[tt...@aol.com]

Remind me what model you have.  KM? 50C? 65CA? etc.  -Todd

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[tt...@aol.com]

Check out 1-195 on Aeronca.com.  Is this what you're looking for?

-----Original Message-----
From: Rafael <bot...@verizon.net>
To: Aeronca <aer...@westmont.edu>
Sent: Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:50 pm
Subject: [f-AA] Control cable fairleads

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[Rafael]

1938 50C --- On Mon, 2/15/10, tt...@aol.com <tt...@aol.com> wrote:

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

[Rafael]

Nope.  Let me try again. All four control cables go thy that poing in the fuselaje frame.  Those brackets do hold this phenolic fairleads to avoid the cables rubbig with the fuselaje.  Per 2-23 "Cable rudder" you need one 1-895-2.  Now 1-895-2 is  a "firlead aileron control cable" 1.5 inches long.  Ok so we ignore the aileron part and using a phenolic tube od 1/2 ob and 3/8 id and you make yourself a fairlead for the rudder cable that has a diameter of 3/32 per 2-23 Now forr the elevtor cables  per 2-27  (1/8 diameter cable) there is no reference to a failead but it needs one and had one as there are brakets for it on the fuselaje.  Is there a drawing that shows what these are gfor the elevator cable?  1-895-?, 1.5 inches like the rudder cables? 6 inches?, 3 inches? Makes sense? Rafael

--- On Mon, 2/15/10, tt...@aol.com <tt...@aol.com> wrote:

From: tt...@aol.com <tt...@aol.com> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Control cable fairleads To: aer...@westmont.edu

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

[Cy Galley]

It is registered as a 1938 50C but has an A65 I believe.  The drawing

1-195 is the clamp that he has welded to his frame.  He is looking for the fairlead tubes that go inside the clamps.

 

Cy

----- Original Message -----

From: tt...@aol.com

To: aer...@westmont.edu

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 5:43 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Control cable fairleads

[Cy Galley]

The only pre-war drawings for fairleads are 1-405, 1-411, 1- 895

 

From Todd's drawing list.

----- Original Message -----

From: Rafael

To: Aeronca

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 4:50 PM

Subject: [f-AA] Control cable fairleads

Oh wise ones!! what is the pre-war drawing for the fairleads needed here? Rafael

[tt...@aol.com]

Rafael,

 

I believe I have an answer for you... but not what you are expecting.

 

In report AAC 3867 which is the Master Drawing List for the 50C & 65C, it shows

   7-30 - Frame - Fuslage

   7-35 - Installation - Control Systems.

 

You will now find these two drawings posted on Aeronca.com.

 

Note, however, that the station 4 cluster in your photo does not look like the drawing.  The fairlead clamps on the bottom on the tube in your photo (presumably for the elevator cable) does not exist in the drawings.  Instead, there are pulleys.  The tabs are part 1-621 (also posted on Aeronca.com) and the pulley that goes in the tabs is an Air Associates A-176.

I have included snippets of these drawings.

 

Now you have the tough decision to keep what you have, or make it per the drawings.  It you keep it, then you'll have to be creative in making the fairleads yourself.

 

Todd

7-30 snippet

7-35 snippet

 

Rafeal's actual 4L cluster

[Cy Galley]

I have been looking and watching this for some time.  Your "fairleads" are not stock witness all the different control setups that Aeronca used in the prewar planes. ALL use a pulley arrangement for the controls under the seats. 

 

Since your have a "certified" plane it must conform to the drawings that Todd has researched.  If you don't restore it to the plans, you will not be able to pass inspection to be able to fly this plane.

 

Do you have an Airworthiness Certificate?  If not you will have to go thru a "conformative" inspection and will need to show the inspector the factory drawings.  If your plane doesn't Match (conform) to the drawing it will not pass. Its that simple. 

 

I would be very careful to make sure other areas are correct.  If someone messed with this area, no telling what other areas are not correct. 

 

You could wind up with a nice looking plane... that can't be flown. Make it right.  

 

Cy Galley; Editor - Aeronca Aviator
Supporting Aeroncas every day
www.aeronca.org

[Rafael]

Todd Thanks for taking the time to research this.  You are right, now looking at my actual 4L cluster and a couple of other details Im wondering if they used a K fuselaje and register it as a 50C.  Wonder how many Ks they have sitting when they started production of the 50C and they just used them as 50C?. My 4L is original and there are no markings of any repairs to it eiteher Rafael

[Craig MacVeigh]

Rafael,
I sent a reply with attachments, but it is waiting for approval.  I'll resend it to you directly.  Your plane is very original and very legal.  It's consistant with the cluster on the KC, Drawing 7-18.  Also "Note B" about that cluster on 7-35 KM Fuselage, says "Two Fairleads Relaced By Pulleys". 
 
So don't cut it!!!!
 
Happy Flying,
Craig
 

---

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:00:15 -0800
From: bot...@verizon.net
To: aer...@westmont.edu

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Control cable fairleads

Todd Thanks for taking the time to research this.  You are right, now looking at my actual 4L cluster and a couple of other details Im wondering if they used a K fuselaje and register it as a 50C.  Wonder how many Ks they have sitting when they started production of the 50C and they just used them as 50C?. My 4L is original and there are no markings of any repairs to it eiteher Rafael

-----Original Message----- From: Rafael <bot...@verizon.net> To: aer...@westmont.edu Sent: Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:29 pm Subject: Re: [f-AA] Control cable fairleads

-----Original Message----- From: Rafael <bot...@verizon.net> To: Aeronca <aer...@westmont.edu> Sent: Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:50 pm Subject: [f-AA] Control cable fairleads

Aeronca mailing list Aer...@westmont.edu http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

-----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Aeronca mailing list Aer...@westmont.edu http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

_______________________________________________ Aeronca mailing list Aer...@westmont.edu http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

-----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Aeronca mailing list Aer...@westmont.edu http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

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[tt...@aol.com]

Wow!  Thanks Criag for digging even deep and actually reading the drawings.     /Todd

Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now. =

[Rafael]

Oh dont worry, if it it looks original, it has worked for 70 years, well it will work for another 70 as far as I  am concerned, no cutting here --- On Tue, 2/16/10, Craig MacVeigh <cmac...@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Craig MacVeigh <cmac...@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Control cable fairleads - Your Plane Conforms to Drawing 7-35 and 7-18

[Tom Holmes]

This is a great list!! Tom, in awe, in the sunshine!

--- On Tue, 2/16/10, tt...@aol.com <tt...@aol.com> wrote:

From: tt...@aol.com <tt...@aol.com> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Control cable fairleads To: aer...@westmont.edu

Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 6:22 AM

[Rafael]

The scarry part is that we have probably given more thought and brain power to many drawings more than they ever gave them on the factory Rafael Mid 70s in Cali today :) --- On Tue, 2/16/10, Tom Holmes <thomasth...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

[Cy Galley]

I guess you can tell I don't know what I am taking about. The drawing 7-18 seems clear about the Clamps. Drawing 7-30 which mine says is for a 50-C  also has a change "note H" that replaces two fairleads with pulleys.

 

My apologies.

 

Cy

----- Original Message -----

From: Craig MacVeigh

To: aer...@westmont.edu

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 11:58 AM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Control cable fairleads - Your Plane Conforms to Drawing 7-35 and 7-18

[Rafael]

No need to apologize my friend, this dicussion is great!!!! and very very educationa!! Rafael --- On Tue, 2/16/10, Cy Galley <cga...@qcbc.org> wrote:

From: Cy Galley <cga...@qcbc.org> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Control cable fairleads - Your Plane Conforms to Drawing 7-35 and 7-18

[tt...@aol.com]

I appologize too.  I cannot find Note H in my version 7-30, which is revision J.   I see Change H, which refers to the engine mount bushing, but that does not seem to apply here.  I must be blind. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Cy Galley <cga...@qcbc.org>
To: aer...@westmont.edu

[n20...@provide.net]

I'm just impressed that anyone caught it at all.  I would have been through cover wondering where the cables were!

Scott

[Cy Galley]

Sorry more confusion... It is Change "G"

[Mark McAtee]

Hmmmm. Just went down to the barn where the 39' is stored hanging from the rafters.  It has the fairleads just like those in the photo.  Logs also show that it was a 50C that was "reprocessed" prior to sale into a 65C. 

I don't think there is an IA anywhere closer than 1000 miles that would notice the difference between this and the conformance with factory drawings.

I sure as hell ain't going to cut off stock (factory original and sold as such) fairleads and replace with non-stock pulleys just cause of some 70 year old drawings.
 
 
 
Mark 


 
"All airplanes bite fools "        borrowed from a message to an Aeronca newsgroup
 

---

From: cga...@qcbc.org
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:31:42 -0600

---

Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.

[Rafael]

So an airplane comes out of a procuction line and later on the manufacturer decides to make modifications to that airplane, no AD or anything similar is issued.  So now the owner has to modify the airplane to meet the new production standards?  If no AD, AC or any other A is issued I dont see why and if that is the case you guys better get busy :) Rafael --- On Tue, 2/16/10, Mark McAtee <gorg...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Craig MacVeigh]

Rafael,
there is nothing that says you have to "update" your airframe.  Production changes are made all the time, even in current aircraft.  One of my jobs was tracking the Configuration Management of the AV-8B aircraft when they were first deliveried to MCAS Yuma.  They were all legal to fly.  But you just couldn't swap parts around.  The same is true for Boeing 737s and Cessna 172s.  It's just that today's manufacturers are much better about tracking what differences are incorporated on which lot of airframes.  
 
Nothing tells me that I have to incorporate all of the changes made to Champs over the years just to keep flying my '45.  Even though, the 1945 Aeronca 7AC is the same Type Certificate as the 2010 American Champion 7ACA.  I just need to maintain the airframe consistant with my serial number and original configuration.   

Remember these are Aeroncas.  Keep it Safe.  Keep It Simple!!!!
 
Craig 
 
 

---

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:50:17 -0800
From: bot...@verizon.net
To: aer...@westmont.edu

[Richard Holcombe]

When the inspector comes, put a six pack of beer in the sun, in the window, with a bag of ice melting over it. Say nothing, but if he takes too long, the beer will get warm. Keep it safe, keep it simple, but keep it flying.

[tt...@aol.com]

And there is one of the biggest problems I have my drawing project.  That is, finding the drawing revision for the date my aircraft was built.   And that is exactly why I put the "revision date" on the drawing index for all my posted drawings.  The problem is that I typically only have the most recent drawing.  However, my aircraft may have been manufactured prior that date using a drawing of a previous revision letter.  Other than the notes on the revision of the drawing, I would have no way of knowing what may have changed.  Often the notes may say "now 0.875" but it does not say what it was.  

 

This is agervating when they reused a part on another aircraft and then modified it.  They change the drawing.  Such is the case with the compression tubes.  The ends of the wing compression tubes (assembly 2-694) uses part 1-13.   Part 1-13 was used on the K, O58B, 7 and 11.   But they moved the holes on the later models!! And they didn't keep track of the previous changes.  So now I have no way of making part 1-13 from the drawing for my Aeronca K.    Agervating.   Same is true with the rib spacing on my K, drawing 7.1.  They changed the rib spacing at serial number K-257, revision E.    I have K-244 and I have no idea what the rib spacing was, because Aeronca did not save that fact.  What I need is revision D.  But I rarely ever find previous revisions of a drawing.

Oh well.  At least having the drawings solves many of our problem, but not all of them.

 

Todd

-----Original Message-----
From: Craig MacVeigh <cmac...@hotmail.com>

Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now. =

[joer...@suddenlink.net]

One thing you might consider. Fairleads are not used anymore for making changes in a cable's direction because of the friction and wear. Changing direction is a job for a pulley. When you rig your controls look to see if there is a significant bend in the cable at the fairlead. If there is, there will be a significant friction between the cable and the fairlead. It will need to be carefully inspected at regular intervals to be sure you catch any wear or fraying to the cable or damage to the fairlead before it becomes unsafe. Under the floorboards, under the seat, and under the baggage compartment are easy places to forget about, and a cable rub needs to be looked at. You probably won't fly it enough to wear it out, but it will be an area you can't afford to forget about. jrh

---- Rafael <bot...@verizon.net> wrote:
> So an airplane comes out of a procuction line and later on the manufacturer decides to make modifications to that airplane, no AD or anything similar is issued.  So now the owner has to modify the airplane to meet the new production standards?  If no AD, AC or any other A is issued I dont see why and if that is the case you guys better get busy :)
> Rafael
>
> --- On Tue, 2/16/10, Mark McAtee <gorg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Mark McAtee <gorg...@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [f-AA] Control cable fairleads
> To: aer...@westmont.edu
> Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 4:36 PM
>
>
>
>
> Hmmmm. Just went down to the barn where the 39' is stored hanging from the rafters.  It has the fairleads just like those in the photo.  Logs also show that it was a 50C that was "reprocessed" prior to sale into a 65C. 
>
> I don't think there is an IA anywhere closer than 1000 miles that would notice the difference between this and the conformance with factory drawings.
>
> I sure as hell ain't going to cut off stock (factory original and sold as such) fairleads and replace with non-stock pulleys just cause of some 70 year old drawings.
>  
>  
>  
> Mark 
>
>
>  
> "All airplanes bite fools "        borrowed from a message to an Aeronca newsgroup
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>

> 7-30 snippet
>
> 7-35 snippet

> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aeronca mailing list
> Aer...@westmont.edu
> http://mail.westmont.edu/mailman/listinfo/aeronca

_______________________________________________

[Rafael]

What do you mean I will not fly it enought to wear the cables up>>>>> hey after all this work Im planing in changing cables in regular basis ;) Rafael --- On Tue, 2/16/10, joer...@suddenlink.net <joer...@suddenlink.net> wrote:

[Craig MacVeigh]

Rafael,
Don't cut your airplane!  It is as it came from the factory!!!  Your airframe is a very early Chief.  The control configuration that you have was standard on the "KC" (Drawing 7-18 KC Fuselage Frame - I attached a pdf with the snapshot of the cluster).  Your fuselage may have been in production as a KC before it was finished as a 50-C.  I attached a snapshot of the cluster from the drawing.  I'll get a picture of what the guides look like that I have.  They're Micarda tubes.  AERONCA was creating different versions of the Chief almost daily.  K...  KC...  KCA...  KM...  and on and on.  The early "Configuration Management"  at Lunken was not very tight. 
 
I have also attached the notes from Drawing 7-35 KM Fuse.  In the snippet from Todd below it refers you to Note "B".  Note "B" states "TWO FAIRLEADS REPLACED BY PULLEYS"  So you have a very original and very legal airframe.  Interesting to note is that the note was not added until April '39.  Long after your plane was off flying somewhere.     

No 2 planes built by AERONCA in the '30s are identical.  There are differences in my two 65C airframes that were made 1 month apart.  (doors are not interchangeable)  My study of the C-2/C-3 really shows that these were all close to custom built airplanes.   
 
Also the drawings that we have, were often done after the production run was started or finished.  Not every change was noted on the early aircraft.  It was not untill aircraft were being sold to the government that the documentation got really good.  The documentation for the 0-58/L-3 is much better than anything we have for the C, K and Pre-war Chiefs.   The early drawings may not say which airframe some changes are applicable on.  But they usually show the final configuration.  And, they allowed for the manufacture of replacement parts.  I'm actually surprised that this note was inplace. 
 
I'm going to the hangar today to check the cluster on my earlier fuselage.
 
I think it's pretty neat to see these small differences.  Your plane plane is just that much more Special. 
 
I can't wait to get a ride,
Craig

---

To: aer...@westmont.edu
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:22:39 -0500
From: tt...@aol.com

---

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