[f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers

[Sean P. McGrath]

Ok everyone I know this will cause some eyes to roll.

As you all know I am doing the annual on the Champ this weekend. Does anyone know the size crush washers I will need for my Cont. A65? First time for me doing this.

Thanks for the help.

Sean
Champ 7ac
N2177E

Sent from my iPhone
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[j...@joea.com]

Sean,

Crush washers for where?

Oil screen? Oil temp probe? Or other location?

Joe A

On 9 Jan 2014 at 13:34, Sean P. McGrath wrote:

From: "Sean P. McGrath" <maver...@gmail.com>
Date sent: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 13:34:58 -0600
To: f-aa <aer...@westmont.edu>
Subject: [f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers
Send reply to: aer...@westmont.edu
<mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu?subject=unsubscribe>
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> Ok everyone I know this will cause some eyes to roll.
>
> As you all know I am doing the annual on the Champ this weekend. Does anyone know the size crush washers I will need for my Cont. A65? First time for me doing this.
>
> Thanks for the help.
>
> Sean
> Champ 7ac
> N2177E

[Mark Peterson]

He'll need the oil screen, the oil temp probe and the kidney tank bolt, right?

[Rafael]

Before or after crushing them? :)

[Sean P. McGrath]

Do I change them all for the annual?

I am assuming oil plug and screen.

Sent from my iPhone

[Richard Murray]

and 8 for the plugs

[Mark Peterson]

Except those aren't the crush type washers.... most IAs I know have a bucket of used and re-tempered washers for the plugs.

---

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:08:08 -0500
From: murra...@gmail.com
To: aer...@westmont.edu

[Rich Dugger]

For the plugs you can do this.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVcx3bJ5lIw

 

I guess the idea is to make the copper soft so it will make a nice seal when properly torqued.

I do not know if this is approved but I have seen it done plenty of times.

 

 

Or you can buy new ones.

[Sean P. McGrath]

Thanks for the info everyone,

Any idea on size?  AN---? 

Sent from my iPad

[Richard Murray]

Yes, thanks Mark and Rich.

I'm still learning.

[Jay Curtis]

Aircraft spruce under engine parts, shows AN900-28 oil screen,AN900-10 with a plug in end of oil screen but this is likely where oil temp bulb is.. Shows AN900-14 under oil pressure relief valve, shows AN900-22 under tach drive. It seemed to me my AN900-28 copper washer is a tad oversized but it works. If ever you do remove the tach adapter if I remember right it is indeed left hand tread. Jay

[Sean P. McGrath]

Thank you so much, I appreciate the help. 

Sent from my iPhone

[Cy Galley]

The crush washers are hollow filled with fiber that used to be Asbestos.  The solid spark plug washer can be soften by heating cherry red and then dumpewd in water which will remove all the scaled and dirt. The Copper gasket is what the parts book calls them are all AN900. The dash controls the size.  Dash 28 is 1 3/4 ID. You need dash 10 which is 5/8 ID. The Tach drive is a dash 14, The pressure relief is a 14, while the Oil Pickup tube is another Dash 10.

 

You need to get a overhaul and parts manual so you can look this stuff up.

 

Cy Galley;

Supporting Aeroncas every day
www.aeronca.org

[Mark Peterson]

My last annual replaced this:

MS35769-11   Gasket-Crush 1.00 Each 1.640 $ 1.64
MS35769-15   Gasket-Crush 1.00 Each 1.400 $ 1.40
MS35769-48   Gasket-Crush 1.00 Each 1.100 $ 1.10

I have no idea is the - dash numbers are right.  I didn't see anyone write them down and since the gaskets
are all the same price....

---

From: cga...@mchsi.com
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:12:58 -0600

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers

[Mark Peterson]

Oops, they aren't the same price.... the "COPPER ENCASED GASKET" is the term to look for now I guess.
I'll have to pick some up at a lower price than the shop price!

---

From: mrpet...@msn.com
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 13:47:27 -0800

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers

My last annual replaced this:

MS35769-11   Gasket-Crush 1.00 Each 1.640 $ 1.64
MS35769-15   Gasket-Crush 1.00 Each 1.400 $ 1.40
MS35769-48   Gasket-Crush 1.00 Each 1.100 $ 1.10

I have no idea is the - dash numbers are right.  I didn't see anyone write them down and since the gaskets
are all the same price....

---

From: cga...@mchsi.com
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:12:58 -0600
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers

The crush washers are hollow filled with fiber that used to be Asbestos.  The solid spark plug washer can be soften by heating cherry red and then dumpewd in water which will remove all the scaled and dirt. The Copper gasket is what the parts book calls them are all AN900. The dash controls the size.  Dash 28 is 1 3/4 ID. You need dash 10 which is 5/8 ID. The Tach drive is a dash 14, The pressure relief is a 14, while the Oil Pickup tube is another Dash 10.

 

[Dan Vandermeer]

Sean

Call WagAero. They specifically support Aeroncas.  They stock the hardware you will need for almost all maintenance and repair needs. The sales and shop staff can answer these kinds of questions. 

Again, I caution you to wait until you have your AP on site before putting any tool to your plane and  before you order stuff. If you make a list of parts you need with guidance from your AP, Wag or whatever supplier you choose can ship it all one package, saving you money and time. You may find out you need things like spark plugs, air filters, valve cover gaskets, etc that can be ordered and shipped together over night at a cost that is less than several orders if shipped individually. 

You can also order extra fasteners and sundries you will need when you begin to do your own preventive maintenance. 

I understand you excitement and enthusiasm, but caution against being impetuous. Patience is a pilot's great ally in saving money and safety of flight. 

All of the above is just one OF's opinion.  But I have been just where you are now but without the benefit of this group. 

Dan v 

PS-  I've just finished  reading the most issue of Light a Plane Maintenance.  It has saved me hundreds of dollars over the past few years in maintenance costs. I recommend it to you. 

And PPS- the LPM staff made their most aggressive statement yet against the use of MMO in aircraft engines and fuel in this issue.  And yes I know experts disagree do I'm just reporting- not opining. 

[Dan Vandermeer]

Cy

We may have discussed this before but I use waste oil to cool the plug washers after annealing them. It keeps the spattering to a minimum. 

Dan v

And Sean,

Cy's suggestion regarding manuals and other resource documents is excellent. 

There is an art and science to inspecting, cleaning, and gaping airplane plugs. I needs to be taught.  And there are specific torque and tool requirements for installing them. 

Sorry if I come across like an obsessive prig, but this is an open forum and one can't be too careful about avoiding documenting maintenance and piloting actions that might be interpreted to be illegal-whether in an experimental or certificated aircraft. 

Dan v 

[Dale P. Jewett]

I always thought that an oil change with the accompanying check and clean the screen was permitted within the owner maintenance allowed items.

I have always changed oil, checked & cleaned the screen, and replaced the crush washers myself. My IA seems to be content with that.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Dale Jewett

 

From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of Dan Vandermeer
Sent: Thursday, January 9, 2014 5:16 PM
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers

 

Sean

---

This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

[Cy Galley]

Oil is fine. As I tried the say, the water removes the scale.  One can even air cool them and they will all be dead soft.

Cy

----- Original Message -----

From: Dan Vandermeer

To: aer...@westmont.edu

Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2014 5:29 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers

[Rich Dugger]

That is my understanding also.

 

http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/PIC-archive/Aircraft-Ownership/Preventive-Maintenance.aspx

 

 

 

"I don't know what use any one could find for a machine that would make copies of documents. It certainly couldn't be a feasible business by itself."

(The head of IBM, refusing to back the idea, forcing the inventor to found Xerox)

 

From: Dale P. Jewett

Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2014 5:38 PM

To: aer...@westmont.edu

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers

 

I always thought that an oil change with the accompanying check and clean the screen was permitted within the owner maintenance allowed items.

I have always changed oil, checked & cleaned the screen, and replaced the crush washers myself. My IA seems to be content with that.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Dale Jewett

 

From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of Dan Vandermeer
Sent: Thursday, January 9, 2014 5:16 PM
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers

 

Sean

Call WagAero. They specifically support Aeroncas.  They stock the hardware you will need for almost all maintenance and repair needs. The sales and shop staff can answer these kinds of questions.

Again, I caution you to wait until you have your AP on site before putting any tool to your plane and  before you order stuff. If you make a list of parts you need with guidance from your AP, Wag or whatever supplier you choose can ship it all one package, saving you money and time. You may find out you need things like spark plugs, air filters, valve cover gaskets, etc that can be ordered and shipped together over night at a cost that is less than several orders if shipped individually.

You can also order extra fasteners and sundries you will need when you begin to do your own preventive maintenance.

I understand you excitement and enthusiasm, but caution against being impetuous. Patience is a pilot's great ally in saving money and safety of flight.

All of the above is just one OF's opinion.  But I have been just where you are now but without the benefit of this group.

Dan v

 

PS-  I've just finished  reading the most issue of Light a Plane Maintenance.  It has saved me hundreds of dollars over the past few years in maintenance costs. I recommend it to you.

 

And PPS- the LPM staff made their most aggressive statement yet against the use of MMO in aircraft engines and fuel in this issue.  And yes I know experts disagree do I'm just reporting- not opining.

---

This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

[Dan Vandermeer]

You are correct. But being "permitted" to perform certain maintenance is not the same as being competent to do it properly and safely. 

My point is that it is easy to damage the probe if it is not removed and replaced properly. A novice probably does not know this intuitively.  Neither does a typical novice know whether the crush washers can be reused. Then there is the question of what the used oil should look and feel like. What does "burned oil" smell like? Is there a simple way to check for ferrous metal or other contaminants in the oil?

Dan v 

[Chris Murray]

This is a standard process for annealing copper. Heat it up, then drop it in water. It was taught to me at A&P school back in the ‘70’s. Process does the opposite on iron and steel.

Chris

 

---

From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of Rich Dugger
Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2014 1:20 PM
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers

 

For the plugs you can do this.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVcx3bJ5lIw

 

I guess the idea is to make the copper soft so it will make a nice seal when properly torqued.

I do not know if this is approved but I have seen it done plenty of times.

 

 

Or you can buy new ones.

From: Richard Murray

Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2014 2:08 PM

To: aer...@westmont.edu

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers

 

[Rich Dugger]

The article I referenced from AOPA was pretty clear about getting some guidance.
Dan is right. You may not save much money paying your IA to show you around the first time but for years after that you can save a bundle.
A friend of mine once told me:

“ I never got an education that I didn’t pay for .......one way or another.”

 

 

 

Rich

 

 

"I don't know what use any one could find for a machine that would make copies of documents. It certainly couldn't be a feasible business by itself."

(The head of IBM, refusing to back the idea, forcing the inventor to found Xerox)

 

From: Dan Vandermeer

Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2014 6:49 PM

To: aer...@westmont.edu

Subject: Re: [f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers

 

You are correct. But being "permitted" to perform certain maintenance is not the same as being competent to do it properly and safely.

My point is that it is easy to damage the probe if it is not removed and replaced properly. A novice probably does not know this intuitively.  Neither does a typical novice know whether the crush washers can be reused. Then there is the question of what the used oil should look and feel like. What does "burned oil" smell like? Is there a simple way to check for ferrous metal or other contaminants in the oil?

Dan v

[Dale P. Jewett]

Dan,

 

If I did not feel myself “competent”, I certainly would not do “permitted” maintenance. I am a long time mechanical engineer, and have restored a 1939 Stinson HW75 under the tutelage of my good friend A&P-IA, even through a complete engine overhaul. I realize some owners may not be very mechanically inclined, however.

 

Dale Jewett

 

From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On Behalf Of Dan Vandermeer
Sent: Thursday, January 9, 2014 6:49 PM
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers

 

You are correct. But being "permitted" to perform certain maintenance is not the same as being competent to do it properly and safely. 

My point is that it is easy to damage the probe if it is not removed and replaced properly. A novice probably does not know this intuitively.  Neither does a typical novice know whether the crush washers can be reused. Then there is the question of what the used oil should look and feel like. What does "burned oil" smell like? Is there a simple way to check for ferrous metal or other contaminants in the oil?

Dan v 

[vand...@aol.com]

Dale

I was offering my advice to someone who asked about owner performed maintenance who explained that he had little to no experience with aircraft.  I'm sorry that I was not more explicit in that regard. I can see how you may have been offended if you did not understand the context. I invite you to come change the oil in my plane anytime. Oops! I take that back. You aren't the pilot owner of my plane. ;). 

Fly safe and thanks for your comment. 

Dan 

[John Baker]

Sean,

EAA has some very helpful "how-to" videos. I found this one on crush
washers:

http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=995217327001

The video demonstrates how to install the washers (which side faces what)
and how to determine the correct torque when tightening the fitting. For
example, for the oil screen fitting on the A-65, which has a pitch of 16
threads per inch, you install the fitting hand tight, and then tighten it
(only) an additional 135 degrees, or 3/4's of a turn. I would guess that
some of us would tend to over tighten these fittings.

Tailwinds...

John Baker
www.hangar9aeroworks.com

[Rich Dugger]

Thanks , John I found that very informative.

Rich




"I don't know what use any one could find for a machine that would make
copies of documents. It certainly couldn't be a feasible business by
itself."

(The head of IBM, refusing to back the idea, forcing the inventor to found
Xerox)

-----Original Message-----
From: John Baker
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 1:03 PM
To: aer...@westmont.edu

[Sean P. McGrath]

Great info. A must watch for everyone. Thanks.

Sent from my iPhone

[Jay Curtis]

Great stuff John.. Something I have always found odd is the oil temp probe fits into the rear of the oil screen housing and is not safety wired !!! Can anyone explain why with provision holes to safety wiring everything else, as to why it seems this application is not been engineered to be done also (no hole in nut side that backs bulb probe)?? I find it odd that there is no provision in both engines I have owned to safety wire the temp bulb nut .
Jay

[Roger Anderson]

Always wondered that myself.  And after watching the videos, I guarantee I'm an over tightener, at least according to that info.   roger

---

From: "Jay Curtis" <jcu...@execulink.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 2:27:52 PM
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers

[Robert McDonald]

John,

135 degrees is 3/8 of a turn. 3/4 would be 270 degrees - overtightened.

Rob

[John Baker]

Rob,

Oops... you are absolutely right. I always benefit from having a good
proof-reader. Thanks.

Understand you are close to graduation. Congratulations.

Tailwinds...

John
www.hangar9aeroworks.com

-----Original Message-----
From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On

Behalf Of Robert McDonald
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 6:16 PM
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers

[Robert]

Wouldn't 270 degrees be 3/4 of a turn? Which is correct the 135 degrees or the 3/4 of a turn?

Sent from my iPad

[John Baker]

Robert,

135 degrees is correct, or 3/8 of a full turn. Thankfully, we have some
good proof-readers on this list who caught my error.

Tailwinds...

John
www.hangar9aeroworks.com


-----Original Message-----
From: aeronca...@westmont.edu [mailto:aeronca...@westmont.edu] On
Behalf Of Robert
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 6:57 PM
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers

[Richard Murray]

Thanks for the video! I am confident I have been tightening them too much as well. 

Richard in OH still learning

[jcpa...@comcast.net]

Jay,

I asked my IA the same question a couple of years ago.  His response was the threads are pipe threads and the connection will tend to tighten vs loosen over time.  Just repeating was I was told.

Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: Jay Curtis <jcu...@execulink.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu

Sent: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:27:52 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers

[Roger Anderson]

Hey Sean.  This might be a good time to install an oil quick drain, if interested.   I'd never had one in an aircraft until I got this Chief (the quick drain was already in it).  Love it.  Makes an oil change much easier, quicker, much less messy.   roger

---

[Dale P. Jewett]

Jay,

 

I believe your IA was mistaken. Although I am not looking at the temp probe right now, I seem to recall that the threads are straight threads, and there is a crush washer. I would have to go look at my engine to verify this, however.

 

I also have wondered why there were no holes for safety wire.

 

Dale Jewett

[Jay Curtis]

Dale, it was Jim who posted his IA told him about pipe thread comment.  I agree also that this application is straight thread and not safetied.  Jay

[John Propst]

Jay,
Attached is a not very good photo of how Bill Pancake safety wired the oil
temp probe fitting at the oil screen on my plane.

John Propst
313 Hickory Grove Ln
Elizabeth, WV 26143
Cell 304 588 3690
Home 304 275 4666
Email: J.E.P...@ieee.org

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Curtis [mailto:jcu...@execulink.com]
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 3:28 PM
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers

[jcpa...@comcast.net]

Dale,

On my c85 there is a fitting that interfaces between the oil screen and the nut that retains the temp probe in the fitting/screen.  This fitting is installed with a crush gasket between the fitting and the oil screen, and of course there is a crush gasket between the oil screen and the case.  The nut that retains the probe does not have a crush gasket installed between the fitting and the nut; I believe this is the threaded connection that is not safety tied and is a pipe thread. 

 

Jim

---

From: "Dale P. Jewett" <dal...@sbcglobal.net>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2014 10:11:40 AM

[Sean P. McGrath]

I assisted with the annual today and it was not that bad...we got it all done with just two issues that need to be addressed. I will look into the drain. 

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 11, 2014, at 8:52 AM, Roger Anderson <11...@comcast.net> wrote:

Hey Sean.  This might be a good time to install an oil quick drain, if interested.   I'd never had one in an aircraft until I got this Chief (the quick drain was already in it).  Love it.  Makes an oil change much easier, quicker, much less messy.   roger

---

_______________________________________________

[Mark Peterson]

Well, what did you learn!?!!  And the two issues were????

Curious,
Mark

---

From: maver...@gmail.com
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 19:29:17 -0600
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Subject: Re: [f-AA] Continental A65 crush washers & Quick Drain

[Sean P. McGrath]

Well, I learned a ton about my airplane how it was restored what to look for and how. How properly change the oil, clean the screen and how to use safety wire. Spark plugs, and how the continental 65 was put together.   I also got a long lesson in part 43 of what I can do and wright in the logs myself.

I thought I sent an email to the list about both issues.

1. My upper trim cable has corrosion near the coupler and it is starting to fray, must be replaced. So the champ is grounded until I fix it. Any suggestions on how nit to tear apart my entire airplane to do it? 

2. The pito / static line bracket it cracked.

I will resend my email with pics. 

Sean 

Sent from my iPad

[John Rodkey]

Well, even a non-novice can ruin the temp probe.  Speaking from personal experience:  I had successfully changed oil and check the screen perhaps 30 or so times over the years, and last year while working under my IA's supervision doing annual inspection, I crimped the copper tubing, rendering my oil temp inoperative.  Fortunately, it was fairly easy to replace: just a matter of throwing a little money and time at the problem.

But I would agree with Dan about gaining competency by working closely with your IA and using ancillary materials to supplement his instruction.

John

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--
John (poobah) Rodkey - N9361E 11AC at Goleta