[f-AA] 7AC gross weight increase

[George]

I recently purchased a 7AC Champ. It has a 85 hp engine. I have heard there is a way of increasing the gross weight to 1300 pounds. Is that true? If so, how is that done?
Thanks
George

Sent from my iPad
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[Rich Dugger]

Why would anyone want to do that?
The airplane doesn't know what is printed in the log books.


Help me out here.
Rich

[Tom Holmes]

What does the C85 STC say?  Which one was it?

Tom, two tandems, from Tampa, and the RNC, and Isaac.

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From: Rich Dugger <richd...@gmail.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: [f-AA] 7AC gross weight increase

[Jim Baker]

Here are a couple of reasons why...
Your insurance is worthless if you have a problem and the airplane was overloaded (overgross)
A curious FAA inspector on a ramp somewhere.
When an airplane hits the dirt, whatever the reason, you can bet there will be plenty of people looking at the books.
Jim

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From: Tom Holmes <thomasth...@sbcglobal.net>
To: "aer...@westmont.edu" <aer...@westmont.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 8:36 PM

[George]

The engine was installed per champ service letter 14 which states the Installation changes the plane to a 7DC and the new gross weight allowance is 80 pounds greater than a 7AC or a 7BCM.  The plane has the NB landing gear and service letter states "all model 7 DC airplanes, however, are approved for operation at a gross weight of 1350 pounds."  May I still use the 1300 pounds gross weight, or is the new gross weight absolutely 1350 pounds.

I want the 1300 pound gross weight so I can fly with something more than a toothbrush and a pair of shorts and keep the plane in. The light sport category. BTW I don't know what the gross weight of a 7BCM is. 

I know very little about Champs and I am trying to get info on them. 

Thanks for any help that is given.

George

Sent from my iPad

[Rich Dugger]

George,
I may have misunderstood your question and I am no expert on these although I have owned one for a while.
Do you have the CD from the FAA on this aircraft?
Did you own the plane when the engine was replaced? Or did you get it that way?
If the FAA has it on file as the gross weight being increased above 1320 already then it is no longer LSA compliant.
And that can be gleaned from the FAA CD.

If you are doing this engine change now then you have the "allowance" to increase the gross weight up to 1350 as I read it.
Doesn't mean you have to. If that is your question as (I understand it.)
Tell us more background and I am sure other more knowledgeable folks will have a definitive answer.
The info I find by googling" 7ac gross weight" gives the gross weight at 1300 for a 7 AC or 7BCM at 1300 lbs.Adding 80 to that runs it up to 1380 of course and the LSA limit is 1320 lbs.

Rich

[George Renfroe]

The info I found on the 7BCM is that the gross weight is 1300 pounds.  Eighty additional pounds is out of the question.  However if I use the gross weight of the 7AC which is 1220 pounds, the the eighty pound increase is just right.  The plane has the NB gear and the service letter states A/C with the NB gear are approved for "operation at a gross weight of 1350 pounds."  I do not know if the 85 hp engine and the NB gear changes the gross weight to 1350 pounds.  The service letter says approved, for operation at 1350 pounds not increased to 1350 pounds.  One can easily conclude the gross weight can be increased, however, can the pilot use 1300 pounds and decide not to take advantage of the approval?  I just want my little champ to be under 1320 pounds.

The engine change was done years ago along with lighting and a fuel capacity increase.  Everything was done under a 337 except the engine.  There is no gross weight increase notes in any document, except the service letter.  The FAA disc does not indicate a gross weight increase. 

I bought the plane about one month ago.

I am aware that document irregularities can create difficulties with the FAA and insurance companies.

Thanks

George

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From: Rich Dugger <richd...@gmail.com>
To: aer...@westmont.edu

Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 9:41 PM

Subject: Re: [f-AA] 7AC gross weight increase

[vand...@aol.com]

I'd give careful thought to Rich's point regarding Light Sport eligibility. If you are young and healthy. And if you plan to keep your plane for 5 years. Then your desire to raise the "official" weight above 1320 has merit. But if there is a serious chance the you will need to continue flying under the light sport rules before (and if) the 3rd Class Medical requirements are relaxed then there is a disadvantage to raising the weight. But if the 3rd Class rules allows heavier plane to be flown under less rigorous medical restrictions then the value of your plane at the lighter weight is not a factor.

IMO safety trumps all of the above. The most important consideration is if the plane will carry you your passenger and your stuff from takeoff to landing in all the conditions you operate in. That's why I worry about weight limits. 

Dan V

[Rich Dugger]

i think the short answer is that installation of the NB gear does not "require" you to increase the gross weight.
It "allows" you to increase it.
Rich

[Stephen Briggs]

One thing to consider is the resale value.  If it stays in the LSA class it will have a much higher resale value at a future date.  My guess is the probability of needing/wanting to sell it at some point is greater than getting inspected by an FAA guy or having an accident. 

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Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 22:42:59 -0700
From: george....@yahoo.com
To: aer...@westmont.edu

[richd...@gmail.com]

BTW George, where are you located?
Rich
Anything is possible............if you don't know what you're talking about.

-----Original Message-----
From: George Renfroe <george....@yahoo.com>
Sender: aeronca...@westmont.edu
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 22:42:59

[Thomas DeWinter]

As far as I know. If the FAA CD or records do NOT show a gross weight increase, then despite whatever mods are on the plane (no bounce gear etc).  The gross weight of the aircraft remains identical to its original certification limit. So I believe in your case your gross weight is still 1,300 lbs.

As stated by someone else, the NB gear allows but is not required a gross weight increase of I thought 70 lbs.  But in order for that to occur, the paper work and I think a placard has to be complied with or EVERYTHING in an STC etc. If even the paper work was done, but the placard not installed or any single thing not complied with in the STC, then the weight increase is not legal and thus the gross weight was never officially raise or legal. In that case the aircraft was never taken out legally from LSA and thus is eligible to remain LSA.

At least that is my understanding after reading stuff on this and other sites over the years. Others can correct me if I'm mistaken in my understanding. And I will be happy to be corrected.

One bummer is that while the NB gear can be installed on a 11AC chief, nowhere to my knowledge allowed a gross weight increase for a chief. Only the champ.  The real kicker is that the 11AC gross of 1,250 lbs plus the 70 lb gross weight increase would nicely put it at the 1,320lb gross weight limit of LSA rules.  I'd love to legally be able to carry 70 additional pounds in my chief!

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From: George Renfroe <george....@yahoo.com>
To: "aer...@westmont.edu" <aer...@westmont.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 12:42 AM

[Richard Holcombe]

I've encountered rule freaks who mantain that if it is allowed, it is required.  It is important to be polite, but non commital with such people; then move on.

There isn't a plane out there with a sixty year paper trail that someone couldn't find something unclear and/or "unairworthy".

The TC, and STC for the engine change should remove all discussion a to the Gross Weight. Want to carry more, put either your plane, or your self, on a diet.

My C-90 is no stronger than the C-85 and it has carried my to 11,500 without dificulty both ways across the mountains this summer.

Go fly and enjoy your plane.

[Tom Holmes]

Tom,

have you talked to your local FSDO about a field approval based on the Champ STC?

Tom, two tandems, from Tampa

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From: Thomas DeWinter <toms...@yahoo.com>
To: "aer...@westmont.edu" <aer...@westmont.edu>; George Renfroe <george....@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 10:59 AM

[George Renfroe]

Two tandems Tom from Tampa,  say that fast three times 

I do not feel comfortable discussing anything concerning a 60 year old plane with the Feds.  The engine installation doesn't need a STC.  I generally take the position if you from the government, you ain't there to help.  If I do that, I will talk with my FAA friend prior to an official discussion.

Thanks for the suggestion, ultimately, it may prove to be a good idea.

George 

[richd...@gmail.com]

With all due respect to our resident FAA employee my general attitude is " No good can come from talking to the FAA"
Of course there are exceptions but in general....

Rich
Anything is possible............if you don't know what you're talking about.

-----Original Message-----
From: George Renfroe <george....@yahoo.com>
Sender: aeronca...@westmont.edu
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:50:59
To: aer...@westmont.edu<aer...@westmont.edu>; Tom Holmes<thomasth...@sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: aer...@westmont.edu,
George Renfroe <george....@yahoo.com>

[Richard Jeffryes]

If your plane was converted to a 7DC via service letter, your gross weight is 1300 lb. If the long stroke gear was installed, but no placard and no new weight and balance, the gross weight is still 1300 lb. I have a letter from the Seattle ASO that says exactly that. If your plane was converted to a 7BCM via service letter, the gross is 1220, regardless of the gear. I can't attach a copy of the ASO letter, but i have posted it before to the list.

Richard in Creswell, 7CCM via service letter

[ginny wilken]

You may know this already but the TC for the 7DC says:

1300lbs. May be increased to 1350lbs. when "Long Stroke Oleo Landing Gear", Aeronca P/N 3-665, installed and placard, 

"Intentional spinning prohibited when baggage carried", Aeronca P/N 1-2929,installed on instrument panel.

So maybe it isn't-yet. I am operating my 7DC as a light sport plane for my plane partner, who has given up medical certification. But we have standard gear.

ginny

All stunts performed without a net!

[eladyah]

Your comment re:Chief gross weight increase for NB installation is right on. While Chief in this status apparently doesn't have a known legal position about a change from 1250 to 1320 MGW, it certainly helps address the "Could I carry an extra toothbrush" on a XC question. Do you know of anyone who has simply gone straight ahead and tried to get the FAA to accept this change? Dale

---

From: Thomas DeWinter <toms...@yahoo.com>;

To: aer...@westmont.edu <aer...@westmont.edu>; George Renfroe <george....@yahoo.com>;

Subject: Re: [f-AA] 7AC gross weight increase

Sent: Fri, Aug 24, 2012 2:59:11 PM

As far as I know. If the FAA CD or records do NOT show a gross weight increase, then despite whatever mods are on the plane (no bounce gear etc).  The gross weight of the aircraft remains identical to its original certification limit. So I believe in your case your gross weight is still 1,300 lbs. As stated by someone else, the NB gear allows but is not required a gross weight increase of I thought 70 lbs.  But in order for that to occur, the paper work and I think a placard has to be complied with or EVERYTHING in an STC etc. If even the paper work was done, but the placard not installed or any single thing not complied with in the STC, then the weight increase is not legal and thus the gross weight was never officially raise or legal. In that case the aircraft was never taken out legally from LSA and thus is eligible to remain LSA. At least that is my understanding after reading stuff on this and other sites over the years. Others can correct me if I'm mistaken in my understanding. And I will be happy to be corrected. One bummer is that while the NB gear can be installed on a 11AC chief, nowhere to my knowledge allowed a gross weight increase for a chief. Only the champ.  The real kicker is that the 11AC gross of 1,250 lbs plus the 70 lb gross weight increase would nicely put it at the 1,320lb gross weight limit of LSA rules.  I'd love to legally be able to carry 70 additional pounds in my chief!

From: George Renfroe <george....@yahoo.com> To: "aer...@westmont.edu" <aer...@westmont.edu> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 12:42 AM Subject: Re: [f-AA] 7AC gross weight increase

The info I found on the 7BCM is that the gross weight is 1300 pounds.  Eighty additional pounds is out of the question.  However if I use the gross weight of the 7AC which is 1220 pounds, the the eighty pound increase is just right.  The plane has the NB gear and the service letter states A/C with the NB gear are approved for "operation at a gross weight of 1350 pounds."  I do not know if the 85 hp engine and the NB gear changes the gross weight to 1350 pounds.  The service letter says approved, for operation at 1350 pounds not increased to 1350 pounds.  One can easily conclude the gross weight can be increased, however, can the pilot use 1300 pounds and decide not to take advantage of the approval?  I just want my little champ to be under 1320 pounds. The engine change was done years ago along with lighting and a fuel capacity increase.  Everything was done under a 337 except the engine.  There is no gross weight increase notes in any document, except the service letter.  The FAA disc does not indicate a gross weight increase.  I bought the plane about one month ago. I am aware that document irregularities can create difficulties with the FAA and insurance companies. Thanks George

[eladyah]

[Richard Jeffryes]

did I say ASO? I meant ACO.

 

Richard in Creswell, flour bombing ace