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Steven Moyer
Nov 14, 2013, 4:14:19 AM11/14/13
to Peace Democracy, exposing-money, exposi...@groups.facebook.com
I
think it would come as a shock to many Americans to hear that
democracy, capitalism and Christianity are not a package deal and are
actually three totally separate institutions.
- You, Christopher Lowry, Ava Thiesen and 97 others like this.
Kelley Dane And an economic system is not what we pledge allegiance to, nor should it be compulsory to worship it. Truth in advertisement: "In ALLAN GREENSPAN We Trust". NOT God.- Denis Labrie capitalism=greed, Christianity...where do you want to start the crusades ,the Spanish inquisition or current nastiness?....,democracy, can't reach meaningful compromise in the current system and our system is kinda based on compromise...but hell just write a bunch of lines of reasons and see where that gets us.
Glen Wells a democracy could be capitalistic and christian
a capitalist could be democratic and christian
a christian could be democratic and capitalistic
they can be packaged together/separately or not
to say they are not a package deal is a matter of choice
to separate or combine again is matters of choice
Rock Ridgeway Seems like Jesus and friends threw it all together in a common trust and doled it out as needed by any or all ... Hmmmm ... I believe that's called communism...
Carli Harkirat Castellani we are a very silly people. if only we could embrace our sillyness and get over ourselves.
Diane Mundell its amazing the comments you get Will, are you sure you dont want to run for some office in the Whitehouse
Will Bason Thanks! I think i would be good on the garden staff, but i lack credentials for that or anything else.
Neil Newman "I think it would come as a shock to many Americans to hear that democracy, capitalism and Christianity are not a package deal and are actually three totally separate institutions."
i disagree.
to explain - the values *most Westerners* associate with those concepts come from the same social milieu. The 3 concepts have many variations, but the core of the ideas (not often explained, and never in school, for reasons of Class conflict - unless you had a Jesuit 'liberation theology' education), is indeed the same.
the core Christian message - you are part of the centre of the universe, and by doing good, you help both yourself and yourself in other bodies (other people).
the core capitalist principle, as created by Adam Smith - "you own yourself". No more slavery, the right of free-speech, to form political associations, religious freedom, to create shared companies free from exploitation and trade freely in free-markets, to regard yourselves as all equal (with different abilities), and to share those abilities for the betterment of all. Capitalism was the greatest revolution in liberty for thousands of years.
democracy - the right to participate in political/public life as an equal, to have your voice heard, to form associations and pressure groups, to respect one another, and to realise you 'can't have it all your own way'.
other societies and cultures obviously have them too, but they have a specific cultural weight in Western society. They are all, at core, Liberal messages - that in too many ways have been corrupted to mean the opposite of what they truly stand for. Here you see them again, cleansed of corruption, and you can openly see how they are linked together. Christianity does NOT mean hateful monopolisation and brainwashing of control patterns by a small minority, Democracy does NOT mean meaningless votes every few years 'between' two wings of a one Dictatorship minority rule, Capitalism does NOT mean a tiny minority own all the Land, Companies and Money, and you are force to work for them and enrich them.
- which is WHY you have never had that explained to you in school. Imagine - leaving school with the intention of working in a shared-wealth capitalist cooperative, with the belief in yourself that enlightenment can be yours through good works and "Know Thyself", and the belief that you can start your own local political party and change society with your other right-minded brothers and sisters.
sound good?
not to those with entrenched power and wealth. ALL 3 ideas were called "revolutionary" during previous ages, and now you know why!!- Thomas Bratcher So they have the common thread of revolutionary. But we don't actually live in a democracy...and our Christianity isn't based on the communal living that was the church pre-Roman (conversion), and Capitalism is based on usury...which makes people slave earners...
- Neil Newman "we don't actually live in a democracy"
i didn't say we did. But i think most would want to.
"and our Christianity isn't based on the communal living"
whose 'Christianity'?
"Capitalism is based on usury...which makes people slave earners"
Capitalism can easily exist under Islamic/Interest-free banking, the US was still Capitalist when it had the US Greenback. Usury is NOT implicit within Capitalism.
wage slavery is also not implicit within Capitalism, people can form co-operatives and partnerships, and refuse to enrich rentiers. 
Steve Moyer Money is debt. Debt is slavery. Therefore, money is slavery. How is slavery a DEMOCRATIC concept? The idea that capitalism is a Christian concept is just ridiculous.- Steve Moyer We live in a society where ONE DOLLAR = ONE VOTE. It's worship of the "free market" ideology. That's not democracy. Democracy is ONE PERSON = ONE VOTE.
- Adam Lake you can't say money is debt. Maybe fractional reserve currency is debt, but not all money.
- Neil Newman http://realcurrencies.wordpress.com/.../
this seems to explain it, Steve.realcurrencies.wordpress.comThe endless barrage of debt, debt, debt, makes debt-free money sound very attrac...See More - Adam Lake It is true that money is corrupting our political system, but to say one dollar one vote means you thinks that citizens a are perfectly brain-washable, which is not true.
- Steve Moyer So according to this, Adam Smith started the delusion we share now ... the idea that we OWN our bodies. We don't OWN anything. Property is an illusion. We are merely passing through this world.
- Steve Moyer Money is a failed system because it is based on an ever increasing amount of debt. Listen to Gregory Mannarino: http://gregvegas.nodes.org
- Adam Lake I own my body--nobody has the right to do anything with unless I give permission. I like this policy.
- Steve Moyer If you believe in Christianity then your body is the "temple of the lord." You don't own it. You inhabit it.
- Neil Newman Steve - instead of telling us what we already know, try reading and understanding what we're saying. There can be debt-free money. LISTEN!
- Adam Lake Steve, money is not always debt. Your black and white statements encourage me to peg you as an extremist.
- Steve Moyer Property is the primary delusion. Let's remember that when this country was founded that it was LEGAL for one man to OWN another man as property. How ridiculous is that?
- Steve Moyer Property produces poverty. It isn't a "right" in any sense. You don't have the right to enforce a delusion on others with physical violence.
- Steve Moyer When you say "It's mine" you are also saying "It's NOT yours" to everyone else. That's POVERTY.
- Steve Moyer Property is not a virtue. Money is not a virtue. It's an evil system of domination and control for the benefit of the few at the expense of the many. Tell the truth. Truthfulness is a virtue.
- Adam Lake I agree with that premise, of virtue. I would say that work/effort to create something constitutes some kind of ownership. That being said, if the whole world wants to throw all wealth into one pot and distribute it in a virtuous and compassionate way, I am in.
- Adam Lake your notions seem sound Steve, but its an altogether different and sticky business when we get into the details and implementation of such notions.
- Neil Newman money is simply a useful tool for trading assets and skills, and storing labour. Interest is not essential to this. Christianity has explicit rules denying usury. Capitalism does not require usury, nor exploitation. Christianity, democracy and Capitalism can go together.
- Steve Moyer Money is much more than a tool for trade. What happens when you get a speeding ticket? What about property taxes? What about license fees? Money is a tool of social control as well as commerce. It's also a tool of mental domination. There is only ONE KIND OF MONEY. If you have "no other choice" but to get money then you are living under a tyranny. Freedom requires choice.
- Adam Lake I agree for the most part Niel but I do think it difficult, not impossible, to separate usury and capitalism. Unless the capital is more equitably owned there are rents paid by workers to access the capital in one for or another--usury.
- Adam Lake Steve, how about trade? Money is just a universal unite of trade. Until you bring in interest and such
- Neil Newman i am not opposed to communes and cooperatives - they are right for many people. But many also like the freedoms that comes from 'owning' themselves, and money, that THEY chose what to spend it on, rather than the group.
lack of money is the tyranny.
http://gawker.com/...
gawker.comThe Swiss really know how to kick us when we're down -- while our congress is bu...See More - Steve Moyer Money does NO work. So when someone says "let your money work for you" they are asserting a deception.
- Steve Moyer Money is not JUST anything. Just is a diminutive word. It diminishes the truth. It promotes ignorance. There is always more truth. Ask the question: "What is money OTHER than that?"
- Adam Lake I bet you see dramatically less crime in Switzerland than the US. Steve, pretty sure you are spun out from reality on this money issue. I think we get your point about usury but to couple the whole concept of money at large with the idea of slavery and usury is just extreme. The rational is out the window.
- Neil Newman " but I do think it difficult, not impossible, to separate usury and capitalism. Unless the capital is more equitably owned there are rents paid by workers to access the capital in one for or another--usury."
yes. Now read what *i* wrote about Capitalism above, first. Cooperatives, all the way. No more wage-slavery, and self-owned or housing-associations.
Capitalism DOES NOT MEAN "exploitation". Money DOES NOT MEAN "interest". Your mind has been occupied, liberate it. - Neil Newman Steve, if you hate "money" so much, i'll help you. Just send all your money to me, and your life will be obviously much better. :sigh:
- Adam Lake I agree completely Niel. Cooperatives and other egalitarian business models in competition against one another is the best way forward from what I can tell.
- Steve Moyer I constantly hear people say things like "money is just commerce." But that's not true. What is it when the government takes your home using "eminent domain" and gives you money as compensation? That isn't commerce. It isn't taxation. Money is many, many things including a mental SPELL which has been cast upon us. We do it to each other every time we assert "everyone NEEDS money." Nobody needs money. Throughout most of human history most of humanity has not had money. That's a fact.
- Steve Moyer Neil: Where do you see me use the word "hate" in my statements? You don't. That's because I don't HATE money. I tell the truth about money. It's an evil system of domination and control. That isn't hate. That's a truth.
- Steve Moyer When the bank forecloses on your home they do it with men who carry lots of guns. It isn't a negotiation seeking consensus. It's DOMINATION AND CONTROL.
- Steve Moyer Violence is at the base of money. Tell the truth. That's why we have so many wars. Most wars in the past few centuries have been for money.
- Neil Newman and without "money" you could just live in that house? As Adam asked, - what is your point?
- Steve Moyer Money isn't taking us into a democratic society based on virtue. It's taking us into a tyranny based on fear. Tell the truth.
- Adam Lake Steve, I think you have it backwards. Money is a technology and our "greed and selfishness, violence and oppression" make money manifest in these ways. We can and do use the tool of money for good as well.
- Neil Newman Steve, i suspect unlike you, i've lived in a money-free environment (Kibbutz), and a 90% democratic one (my college). I know the ups and the downs, and i tend to do well in them. I work for love of working, my needs are few, and most crucially - i listen to what other people say.
if there is no private-property and money, how are resources allocated? Who decides? You have to discuss. If you want to listen to a CD, in the Liberal world you wok at a job, save money, buy a CD player, and then the CD. In a democratic-ownership environment you work, and THEN ASK THE GROUP FOR THE RIGHT TO HAVE THOSE THINGS. They may say no. You have no rights to the fruits of your own labours. THIS is why Liberalism requires money, and private property. If you don't like that, you can either become a slave, or work in a monastery (something i considered many times).
whatever 'solutions' you come up with, those are the cold, hard, facts. I hope you realise that. Good night. - Steve Moyer There are many other options. You paint the "false choice" argument. What about having complementary currencies? Why only ONE form of money? What about allowing people to have access to the banking infrastructure for PERSONAL currencies? Why only ONE form of money? Why do we even need government in order to have money? Why don't we build cooperative communities which exchange things with each other using their own currencies to keep account? Ever hear of "credit clearing?" http://beyond_money.amazon.nodes.org
- Steve Moyer My favorite suggestion is to permit people to live in the open. When I use my VISA or Master Card I could tell the world what I'm buying and how much I'm paying for it. This could transform our society very quickly. First of all, I would prefer to do business with people who lived in the open. So if there was a choice of hiring someone who was secretive or someone who shared their data in the open, I would hire the latter. I could also find people who likely need my services as a computer programmer. How would I know? Perhaps I could deduce it by what books they buy at Amazon.com or what parts they buy at Radio Shack. Marketing would be an entirely different affair.
I also want POLITICAL CURRENCY. When I read a good poltiical idea I want to give that person some credits. These are DEBT-based credits. They are just credits. What are they worth? Whatever I say. It's a consensual matter if the person wants to redeem them with me. What do they need? It isn't about greed. 
Michael Wilson Steve, what are these "complementary currencies" to which you allude? Most nation states, with the notable exceptions of those who opt for regional currencies such as the euro, have their own currencies. Barter systems also work, but they tend to depend on the national currency as a basis for valuing the worth of bartered items.- Steve Moyer Check out Wikipedia, especially the WIR currency system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complementary_currency
en.wikipedia.orgComplementary currency (CC) is a currency meant to be used as a complement to an...See More - Steve Moyer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIR_Bank
en.wikipedia.orgThe WIR Bank, formerly the Swiss Economic Circle (GER: Wirtschaftsring-Genossens...See More - Steve Moyer Neil - you can have possessions. You can say that PEOPLE can own anything they can possess, but they cannot own a house unless they live in it. Money is a system with a set of rules. Change the rules. They are changing all the time but mostly in an autocratic manner, not a democractic one. Democratize money. I do listen to you .... you have repeatedly narrowed the discussion of money to a few choices. There are many, many more choices. Imagine money which is created at a community level by voting on proposals on the Internet. You don't need BANKS to have money.
- Steve Moyer I want to destroy the idea that there is ONLY ONE KIND OF MONEY. EXPAND money. Give people true choice.
- Neil Newman ""I think it would come as a shock to many Americans to hear that democracy, capitalism and Christianity are not a package deal and are actually three totally separate institutions."
i disagree.
to explain - the values *most Westerners* associate with those concepts come from the same social milieu. The 3 concepts have many variations, but the core of the ideas (not often explained, and never in school, for reasons of Class conflict - unless you had a Jesuit 'liberation theology' education), is indeed the same.
the core Christian message - you are part of the centre of the universe, and by doing good, you help both yourself and yourself in other bodies (other people).
the core capitalist principle, as created by Adam Smith - "you own yourself". No more slavery, the right of free-speech, to form political associations, religious freedom, to create shared companies free from exploitation and trade freely in free-markets, to regard yourselves as all equal (with different abilities), and to share those abilities for the betterment of all. Capitalism was the greatest revolution in liberty for thousands of years.
democracy - the right to participate in political/public life as an equal, to have your voice heard, to form associations and pressure groups, to respect one another, and to realise you 'can't have it all your own way'.
other societies and cultures obviously have them too, but they have a specific cultural weight in Western society. They are all, at core, Liberal messages - that in too many ways have been corrupted to mean the opposite of what they truly stand for. Here you see them again, cleansed of corruption, and you can openly see how they are linked together. Christianity does NOT mean hateful monopolisation and brainwashing of control patterns by a small minority, Democracy does NOT mean meaningless votes every few years 'between' two wings of a one Dictatorship minority rule, Capitalism does NOT mean a tiny minority own all the Land, Companies and Money, and you are force to work for them and enrich them.
- which is WHY you have never had that explained to you in school. Imagine - leaving school with the intention of working in a shared-wealth capitalist cooperative, with the belief in yourself that enlightenment can be yours through good works and "Know Thyself", and the belief that you can start your own local political party and change society with your other right-minded brothers and sisters.
sound good?
not to those with entrenched power and wealth. ALL 3 ideas were called "revolutionary" during previous ages, and now you know why!!" - Steve Moyer This requires GOVERNMENT action .. to create more choices. We currently have a government which ENFORCES a single monetary system. States are not allowed to have their own currencies, for example.
- Steve Moyer Our government turned the operation of that system over to a cartel of private bankers. We need to break the tyranny. That's what makes money so evil .... the TYRANNY!
- Steve Moyer Incidentally, most countries do the same thing. Money in the modern world is a TYRANNY because people have "no other choice" but to acquire money. I want to change that. See my Vermont Freedom Currency proposal at http://vfc.nodes.org
- Steve Moyer Money needs competition. If competition is good in other matters, why not in terms of money? Give people a choice of two ways to get anything they need in life ... passport, driver's license, food, housing, education, etc.
- Steve Moyer The government has lots of land. Why not issue a currency which can be used to get a "lease for liviing" access permit to live on government land? It would force property values down because people would have a CHOICE. Do you see the TYRANNY inherent in the current system?
- Steve Moyer Be creative. We need to liberate ourselves from the "tyranny of money." If you have no other choice then you are living under a tyranny.
- Steve Moyer Robert Howes posts:
"We need to free ourselves from the corporations but we need also to take over the business world and make it our own as co-ops. There is no legal reason why every company in the world, even the largest, should not become a co-op and work in co-operation with the other co-ops and the people of the world to make a totally co-operative world with no borders and no need of money any more, and no war or poverty any more. We can do this. This is our world, not their world."
Our current system is designed to concentrate wealth in the hands of the few. - Steve Moyer How many of us would support a world without corporations and stock ownership? What if the rule was you could only own a share in a corporation if you WORKED for the corporation? Do you see the difference that rule would make? We need to focus on liberalizing the RULES OF MONEY. Break the tyranny.
Raymond Scott From the very beginning it was about the rich white elite manipulating the American people with religion and racial divisiveness. Many people are still fools.- Steve Moyer It is the religion of state-ism and the dogma of violence. We worship the laws of government, not nature. We impose violence and the threat of violence on each other to create the appearance that money is working and functional when it actually is failing to create a sustainable world for future generations.
- Steve Moyer I have had this conversation many times and the same ridiculous claims and suggestions come out of it nearly every time. For example, someone will claim that I "Hate" money as if there are only two possible emotional responses to money: love and hate. I don't need to love OR hate money in order to tell the truth about it, right? So why is it that people think this way? Money produces exteme-ism as part of its nature. Why must I seek freedom THROUGH money? I seek freedom FROM money. It is a system of oppression and domination using violence. Why would you want to support such a system? Don't you want a world free of oppression and domination and violence?
- Steve Moyer I simply want a choice. If government is going to exist I want it to give me a non-violent choice to do every thing that I need to do in modern society. This requires a non-violence currency based on cooperation and virtue rather than competition and vice.
- Steve Moyer I want to put my labor behind an economic system which rewards virtue. Generosity is a virtue. I want generous people to receive MORE wealth. Compassion is a virtue. I want compassionate people to receive MORE wealth.
And so forth for all the virtues. http://virtue.nodes.org - Steve Moyer All virtues are values but not all values are virtues. Greed and selfishness are values too. They are supported by the current monetary economic system.
- Steve Moyer Money is an integral part of capitalism. How can you have capitalism without money? Capitalism destroys democracy by its nature. We see this everywhere we look in our society. Let's examine some of the attributes of money as a system. Money concentrates wealth in the hands of the few. It requires an oppressive state to redistribute wealth by its nature. It therefore produces state-ism by its nature. It produces greed and selfishness by its nature. It teaches us to live lives based upon our selfish desires rather than our collective needs.
It destroys our virtue rather than enhancing it. It fails to recognize people for doing good thing and instead recognizes people for doing evil things. Tell the truth. Money is taking us INTO evil rather than into goodness. It requires violent coercion by the state. It creates poverty. It destroys the Earth for the sake of greed. Do you deny these things?
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"Consume less and share more."
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Think virtue. Teach virtue. Live virtue
Steve Moyer
http://nodes.net ( NODES Network )
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Steven Moyer
Nov 14, 2013, 7:44:33 AM11/14/13
to Peace Democracy, exposing-money, exposi...@groups.facebook.com
- Steve Moyer There are many different concepts of money. My issue is the IDEA that we can have only ONE kind of money. This is quintessential tyranny. Freedom requires choice. If money is a good thing then let it compete with other forms of money on a level playing field. Give people a choice of different systems. Don't force everyone to "play the same game."
- Steve Moyer Another attribute of money is global tyranny. Every idea has a destiny and the destiny of money as an idea is global tyranny. Why? Because money teaches us that control is real and the purpose of our existence. We are taught that we can and SHOULD c...See More
- Steve Moyer The Bible says we should "judge by the fruits." What are the fruits of money? Environmental destruction. Disease. Poverty. Terrorism. War.
- Steve Moyer Consider how capitalism enforces itself on all nations. Read John Perkins, confessions of an economic hit man. http://john_perkins.amazon.nodes.org
- Will Bason I think you might find more support promoting alternatives than for a war against money as it is.
- Steve Moyer I simply assert "money is evil." I don't suggest we fight money. I suggest we create alternatives to it.
- Steve Moyer More evil is created by FIGHTING evil than by transcending it. Interesting how so many people assume that I am attempting to DESTROY money. That's the wrong thing to do in my opinion. The right thing to do is EXPOSE it and then create a better system.
- Steve Moyer Will Bason said: "I think you might find more support promoting alternatives than for a war against money as it is. " Where did I suggest a "war against money?" I didn't.
- Steve Moyer I have always advocated a NEW ECONOMIC SYSTEM to provide people with true choice. I anticipate money will exist as long as three people want it.
- Gary Harlow and steve moyer if your going to quote the bible then do it in its entirety "" The Bible says we should "judge by the fruits."" it says we are judged by the fruits of or labor
- Gary Harlow if you work only for money you will be judged on that ,,if you work to help your fellow man ,,you will be judged on that and so on
- Steve Moyer It's interesting to me how Christians are quick to the defend money when it is judged to be evil but they are so slow to come forward and condemn money. Why is that?
- Will Bason Money is a whole lot of things to a whole lot of people. Trying to lump it all into evil or good or any other single definition seems sure to be highly inaccurate to me. It is energy; either good or bad depending on how it is used and depending on our definitions of good and bad and it is complicated.
- Steve Moyer If I say to you "Come and help me create a nuclear-free world" and you say to me "I will work for your purpose if you give me money. Otherwise, I will work for someone who pays me to do something else." what are you really saying? You are saying that if I want your cooperation and your labor I must join the money conspiracy. I must support the SYSTEM which concentrates wealth in the hands of the few by its nature. You are enforcing the tyranny of money when you do that. That's evil. The typical justification is that "I need money to live therefore I am justified in requiring you to give me money for my time and labor." But this doesn't solve the problems of the world. The problems are created by people who are serving money, not virtue. Therefore, virtue is reduced and evil is increased. This is precisely what I see happening in the world in a multitude of ways. The greatest evil we do is to deny the evil that we do. When we support the tyranny of money we are supporting evil. Therefore we are doing evil. To say otherwise is to do more evil. It compounds itself by our denial of the truth.
- Steve Moyer Will - do you believe that the money system generates more good than evil or more evil than good? Is the destruction of the environment good or evil if people "make money" doing so?
- Steve Moyer Money is a human system. We should judge it by the results that system produces in the world.
- Steve Moyer Yes, money is energy. But what is the QUALITY of the energy of money? It is control, right? Whoever has the money has the control. But we aren't here to control each other. We are here to love each other. Money doesn't teach love of people, the Earth, God or righteousness. It teaches love of power for the purpose of control, love of desire, love of domination and a host of other evils.
Steven Moyer
Nov 14, 2013, 7:58:04 AM11/14/13
to Peace Democracy, exposing-money, exposi...@groups.facebook.com
- Steve Moyer It's interesting to me how Christians are quick to the defend money when it is judged to be evil but they are so slow to come forward and condemn money. Why is that?
- Will Bason Money is a whole lot of things to a whole lot of people. Trying to lump it all into evil or good or any other single definition seems sure to be highly inaccurate to me. It is energy; either good or bad depending on how it is used and depending on our definitions of good and bad and it is complicated.
- Steve Moyer If I say to you "Come and help me create a nuclear-free world" and you say to me "I will work for your purpose if you give me money. Otherwise, I will work for someone who pays me to do something else." what are you really saying? You are saying that if I want your cooperation and your labor I must join the money conspiracy. I must support the SYSTEM which concentrates wealth in the hands of the few by its nature. You are enforcing the tyranny of money when you do that. That's evil. The typical justification is that "I need money to live therefore I am justified in requiring you to give me money for my time and labor." But this doesn't solve the problems of the world. The problems are created by people who are serving money, not virtue. Therefore, virtue is reduced and evil is increased. This is precisely what I see happening in the world in a multitude of ways. The greatest evil we do is to deny the evil that we do. When we support the tyranny of money we are supporting evil. Therefore we are doing evil. To say otherwise is to do more evil. It compounds itself by our denial of the truth.
- Steve Moyer Will - do you believe that the money system generates more good than evil or more evil than good? Is the destruction of the environment good or evil if people "make money" doing so?
- Steve Moyer Money is a human system. We should judge it by the results that system produces in the world.
- Steve Moyer Yes, money is energy. But what is the QUALITY of the energy of money? It is control, right? Whoever has the money has the control. But we aren't here to control each other. We are here to love each other. Money doesn't teach love of people, the Earth, God or righteousness. It teaches love of power for the purpose of control, love of desire, love of domination and a host of other evils.
- Will Bason Hell, i don't know, Steve, but i am not going to join you in your campaign against it and think it way better simply to try and come up with other means of complex economic transaction.
- Steve Moyer It's interesting how people assume I am against money when I repeatedly say that I am against the TYRANNY of money. Nowhere in this discussion did I suggest eliminating money. Check the record. What I have repeatedly asserted is that we need a new economic system IN ADDITION to money so that we have a true choice for every human need. I have said that I am against TYRANNY and that tyranny is evil and since we have "no other choice" but money for many things we need that we are living under the "tyranny of money." Simply changing the nature of that tyranny does not remove it. We need real choice to have freedom from tyranny. A changed money system which is still the "only choice" is still a tyranny. Do you understand?
- Will Bason I think it likely that our present system will collapse or come to real problems and at that juncture i think a means of complex barter trading will emerge and evolve into a reality based trading system with credits tied to the value of many commodities. But i do not know. I feel a greater need to make some money right now than to destroy or replace that system.
- Steve Moyer I understand. And that is how we get sucked into supporting the money system. It's all based on the assumption that we can have only ONE economic system, which is entirely false. We can have as many systems as we desire but we must change government so that these systems are created. For example, if someone is unable to pay a tax, fee or court-ordered fine ( with money), what OTHER WAY can they meet their obligations? This could be created by LAW through government. This is what we need and it needs to be broadly supported by the people. That's democracy and the subject of this thread.
- Steve Moyer Government could create many different currencies for different purposes. Food. Housing. Clothing. Education. Transportation. Communication. And so forth. We can have special purpose currencies which can be used to obtain the things we need but CANNOT be invested in stocks and bonds. This would be an alternative to the "capitalistic money" we have today.
- Steve Moyer Currencies could be specific to individuals .... you could earn HOUSING credits, for example. But you wouldn't be able to sell or transfer them to someone else if you ddidn't use them. They could also have an expiration date. If you didn't use them by the end of the year you would lose them.
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