Off topic, again: "sorry"?
sparx104
something which I've wondered about and figured someone might have
some insight into something in it:
The original post is at http://www.sparx104.co.uk/?p=q_sorry_
-
A quick question before the long one below:
Is it selfish to want to love someone? Sometimes it feels that way -
I'm extremely lonely and want to love someone - I know I can (maybe
with the odd problem but I loved her 100%) - but is wanting to love
someone, to make them happy and to care for them selfish when you want
it for yourself as well - you know that it'll make you "happy" too?
-
=Sorry
I don't really understand this - what do people actually mean when
they say "sorry"? And why does it seem to make things "better"?
Now, I'll admit - I say sorry a lot - I understand that people seem to
want to hear it but it continually troubles me to say sorry for things
I don't understand. For example:
Whilst we were together she accused me of being patronising. Firstly,
I have no idea what to be patronising actually is (that's one of the
other questions I mentioned above - for later). Of course, I
apologised (automatic reaction) but it doesn't mean anything - she
would never explain what she meant so I couldn't address the problem
by trying to not do it.
Of course, I was sorry for upsetting her - I couldn't stand doing that
but I wasn't sorry for being patronising - a) I didn't know I was
doing it and b) I don't understand why being sorry for it is the
"answer" - fixing the behaviour is the answer - to stop doing things
which were upsetting her.
I don't see the "point" in apologies for things such as that. As I
say - I didn't want to see her upset but I don't understand why "I'm
sorry" is supposed to fix that - it's just words - surely there needs
to be an attempt to "rectify" the issue - to make an effort?
I've certainly never needed or wanted apologies for anything. All I
need is an explanation or understanding for the behaviour: an
accident? - accidents happen, for a joke? - fair enough, malicious? -
why? I fail to understand how a simple phrase is supposed to "fix"
things. Maybe this is related to my inability to hold a grudge.
She said as long as I acknowledged that I was patronising she was
"happy". Why? she obviously wasn't if it was upsetting her. I hated
upsetting her so wanted to understand what I was doing which was
causing it - surely that's the way it should be if you love someone -
you don't want to hurt them, even inadvertently. I am fully aware
that I have problems - partly underlying issues and partly just no
"practice" so I needed to know I was doing wrong so I could change - I
wanted to change for her - I wanted her to be happy, not that it
mattered in the end.
One vaguely related point: We used to text each other when we got up
(we used to try to text each other all the time - I liked that a lot -
it was nice to know she was there and to share her life). Knowing she
had sleep problems I always asked how she'd slept and she'd usually
ask the same. One day I said that I'd slept badly and she complained
that she didn't want to know.
Now, I fully understand (and use) the greeting "alright" as "hello" in
passing. However - if someone asks me if I'm alright ("alright" vs.
"you alright?" or "how are you" mean different things - at least they
do to me) in a situation other than in passing (eg someone in a queue,
or behind a counter etc) I'll probably tell them the truth - they
asked else - they didn't have to, why make the effort if you don't
want the answer?. Also, if I'm not paying attention I'll just tell
them the truth anyway - unless I consciously think "this person
doesn't actually want an answer" they will get one - it's automatic (I
can't keep secrets for the same reason - unless I'm making a concious
effort to filter what's going on I just tell the truth - it doesn't
occur to me that just because I know something other people don't
automatically know it - I have to think that through each time)
But, we were supposed to be lovers (at least I know I loved her) and
every time I asked the question I meant it - I wanted to know how she
felt, and if she felt bad if there was anything I could have done
(leave her alone for a rest/go over to keep her company/take her out
etc. - I can be "sympathetic" in some degree, although I don't see the
"point" it seems to help others). I couldn't (and still can't) see
the point in asking her how she was and then ignoring the answer - why
even ask the question? I tried to explain this to her but she said it
was just an excuse and I'd tried to upset her.
I cared for her, and never wanted to see her hurt - especially though
my own doing.
Not that it really matters - I can't see another situation arising
where I'm going to be able to "use" any understanding.
Thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this and respond.
/Update:
It occurs that I've not actually asked anything here. I guess the
question is why? - assuming this is normal (I don't have anything to
compare it against) why is this "normal"? Why does saying "sorry"
work? And how? - what does it mean to you?
"Didyouknow...."
one of the thing's I got from that was that meditation was an selfish
act in that for 30 minutes or an hour you, take time away and try not
to think about any-one or any thing, just your breathe, and by doing
this your mind becomes sharper and you can get to the root of issues
quicker and act smarter, life feels easier, less of a chore, you do it
because you want the best for yourself, but at the same time you are
able to act with more compassion and care because you are unburdened
from your fears and anxiety's, so at once you are being selfish and
altruistic. Funny how as I'm typing this, the accent in my head is
starting to sound hindi.
Here's another one, a soldier in an army want's glory (selfishly) and
does this by killing more enemy's (assume that the enemy are Nazi if
you want) and so help's his side win the war and save's lives (of the
people of his homeland that would be invaded) which is altruistic, so
yes your desire to love someone is selfish. But selfishness needn't be
at all bad, sometimes it's okay, and sometimes it good.
Just thought of this one, answering this post is fun ( i love the deep
stuff) and at the same time you may gain some insight's, (probably
just re- affirm what you already know)
Saying sorry is a quick little way of showing that you are aware that
sometimes you don't act entirely courteously, it's short for "are we
cool?" then the other makes some kind of noise "don't worry about it"
meaning "yes we're still cool, I know your a twat/prick/wanker, but
that's alright." I think this is a process, it's that emotional
intimacy that you're asking about. Maybe you could imagine everyone
was blind and deaf, and every so often they just reach out to touch
each other, to make sure they're still there, and not alone. This is
what people do, they're are constantly touching each other
emotionally, that is feeling each other out, like spiders checking
their web for any disturbances, they do this to keep social cohesion,
and to make sure the social system is okay, maybe unthreatening might
be an appropriate word.
I think you can imagine how important this sort of "network tending"
to some-one in politics or business is, think Napoleon.
"How are you is" similar, more accurate expression might be "I
acknowledge your presence you now have my attention."
And tellers say "Are you alright?" meaning "What assistance do you
require?"
A difficult one for me is when I have to walk past some one I've just
been talking too, it seems there is supposed to be a small "connect"
and usually it should be comic, but I generally struggle to find
anything amusing to offer, so i just hope they'll think of something.
That's my best guess anyway.
One other thing, if I may be so bold as to offer advice. your being
way too hard on yourself. You can't please everyone all the time. Let
it go. Forget about it ,Quit analyzing the situation to death,
sometimes shit happens. Learn to relax. Not to play down your pain and
suffering, I'm sure you still feel every "mistake" as if it just
happened, (I'm pretty positive on this point) and I'm sure you'd like
it to be that simple. I don't think any one would tell you, you need
to worry more about it.
Another rant proudly sponsored by SUGAR, natures little poison, don't
look for it in store, it's already in EVERYTHING!
sparx104
My "thinking" on the first points:
Meditation: no one has any right to expect anything of anyone unless
they've offered it - eg. if meditation means you fail to do something
you've promised to do then it's wrong, otherwise it's not.
The soldier: his "aim" is to win - that's what he's supposed to do so
if he decides to do it for his own "glory" then that's up to him - as
long as it doesn't affect the "promised outcome" then it's not
selfish.
Wanting someone to love: it's an "imposition" on someone - I want/need
someone to love me back - I *am* expecting something of someone. I
don't know, I can't explain it properly. I'll think about it when I
don't feel so bad.
I guess I get the "superficial" part of saying sorry but I don't get
why it works - and it didn't with her. I've mentioned before that I
rely on "rules" - almost all of which have to be thought up over
time. At the simplest, the sorry one was: you screw up (or are
accused of it), you say "sorry". And it generally worked. But with
her it didn't - and I guess I need to understand why so I can change
the rule. Quite aside from the fact that I hated upsetting her (I
don't like upsetting anyone, but it was worse with her as she was the
first person I actually *cared* about). And surely the idea is not to
screw up in the first place?
Again, I guess I get some of the contact stuff but most emotional
stuff is beyond me. I do remember thinking (and often saying) that I
never wanted to lose her (that worked out well) but not really knowing
why. A lot of my thinking whilst around her wasn't entirely within my
control - hence the mistakes - I have enough problems with
concentration and focus as it is - whilst around her I struggled to
concentrate or focus on anything except that she was there - it was
overwhelming. For example: whilst we were together we went to the
cinema twice and watched dvds all the time - I recall nothing of the
two films at the cinema at all - just the titles, and only bits of the
dvds - generally bits whilst she got up to do something.
You're not the first person to say "don't be so hard on yourself" but
I don't understand it. *I* upset *her* - it was my fault, and it
eventually led to me losing her. She was willing to make the effort
to (presumably) love me but I upset her. And eventually lost her -
and, given the situation - probably the only time I'll find someone to
love. Under almost all other circumstances I don't upset people - I
have no "enemies" nor grudges.
TBH, almost the only parts I remember of the time we had together are
the mistakes. But that applies to my life generally - I remember
virtually nothing except mistakes. I do know I've never been happy
before or since we were together - and never "felt" like that. Nor am
likely to again.
Don't worry about offering advice - I'm almost impossible to offend,
and if I didn't want advice I simply wouldn't say it. And I can talk
about this stuff for ages. In fact, that was something I really liked
whilst we were together - we'd lie in bed and talk for hours (I can't
understand the common "guy goes straight to sleep after sex" thing [is
that really true?] - we'd just hold each other and talk). Again, not
that I remember almost anything of what we talked about.
On Mar 15, 11:22 am, "\"Didyouknow....\""
"Didyouknow...."
upon the other. A more narcicstic personality would feel like they
deserve that love, and who wouldn't be privileged for them to allow
the other to love them. Where as you've analyzed the point to where
it's almost transactional.
I get that, memory thing, most of the thing's I can remember are
generally me making some kind of mistake, or even doing something that
could be viewed in a negative light. And I feel it painfully when I
remember, so I try to forget.
At the moment though I feel okay, and I'm not over analyzing anything,
and if I make a stuff up I can say "shit happens" and carry on. not
only that but I make less mistakes to start off with. It's good to be
alive. Not feeling Manic, just... normal I suppose.
I do fear that I will go back to where I was, so worried all the time
and so intensely cognitive, just thinking, thinking, thinking all the
time. I remember at one point coming home from work and just begging
my thought's to leave me alone for five minutes, only to stat thinking
about some other issue that was bothering me. The thing is that I
don't know why I feel so good, and that is concerning because I have
no way to stay on top of it.
I too have a shit memory for mundane or banal thing's. Sometimes I do
remember properly but I doubt myself so much. Technical stuff - Easy.
Funnily enough I always want to talk after sex. It drove an ex I had
crazy.
It's interesting all the parallels I draw from what you say.
sparx104
loved". Why? Surely people do things because it's to their benefit?
The (very little) experience I've had appears to bear that out. Just
because I don't - putting others first, and so on - I appear to be
unusual. Amongst other things, loving her made me happy, and I liked
that it (generally) made her happy* - I figured the "trade off" that
she was happy meant it was valid or OK for me to feel happy via loving
her - I benefited and so did she. Surely it's wrong that I should
benefit "at the expense of" another, or whilst another doesn't
benefit? That's not fair (and also what I meant by "selfish" I
think).
(* there's more to it than that but I can't put it into words)
And, surely I need to "provide" something to make it worth someone
loving me? I never asked her *why* she loved me (none of this
mattered whilst we were together) - she did mention that she'd given
the relationship a go as she hoped someone with problems similar to
her's might have understood her better. The general consensus appears
to be women seek money, power, attractiveness etc. - things that
"provide" them with something. I've none of that (and don't seek it)
- all I can promise is to love her 100% but, at the end of the day,
you can't *show* that, and does it even really matter?
-
Most of the mistakes I remember don't actually make me "feel" bad as
such as I've been able to understand them and (hopefully) avoid them
in the future (also, not "feeling" anything I don't have any form of
emotional "attachment" - the memories could be anyone's, they wouldn't
"feel" different) The only ones which make me feel bad are with her -
because I upset her, which eventually led to losing her. And
upsetting *her* was very different to upsetting others. If I upset
someone normally I will make every effort to "fix" it, but ultimately
I don't "care" about their response - with her I did. I've managed to
understand some of them (if given enough time [and research] I can
usually figure out what I did wrong) but not all of them - hence this
(and some others I'll get round to asking eventually).
"The price of a memory is the memory of the sorrow it brings"
- Counting Crows, "Mrs Potter's Lullaby"
I've always described my "normal" as "neutral" - not feeling
*anything* - just existing. I can do it at the moment by "unplugging
from reality" - it's like being put on pause - time passes but I'm not
aware of anything going on (or of time passing) - I just "wake up"
later. I guess it's like sleeping whilst awake - "turning off"
conciousness. The problem is that it call comes back eventually.
I have had days when I'm "manic" - I get a great deal of things
started (not done - find it impossible to concentrate on anything long
enough to get it done) and run off on all sorts of tangents. I don't
like it because it's also the time I'm likely to end up doing
something stupid - I'm never in control. It also makes me *very*
restless and twitchy.
At the moment I'm having problems with determining things I've dreamt
vs. reality - when talking to people I frequently reference things
which it turns out I've dreamt - they have no idea what I'm talking
about. Last night I walked 2miles to a store only to realise I had no
idea what I went for, yet a couple of days ago I learned a new
programming language (C#) in about 2hours.
-
I just wish I could "feel" the same way I did with her - none of this
mattered - everything was eclipsed by just being with her. I just
don't ever see it happening again - I'm not really sure how it
happened this time. And even if I can understand enough to not upset
someone, and no matter how many people say "you've got a lot to
offer" (as per the blog post) - I still have no means to find someone.
On Mar 16, 8:18 am, "\"Didyouknow....\""
"Didyouknow...."
babies, is that why they find rich and powerful, generally older, men
desirable. I've been single for about 3 years now and have on occasion
felt a pang of loneliness.
Do you wonder if your analysis of the right to be loved stems from the
fact you don't currently feel loved? Like saying how come everyone
else has toast and not me, what right does anyone have to toast. My
current thinking on thought's is that as rational and reasonable as
they may sound, they all stem from how we feel, The amygdala did
evolve before the frontal lobes after all. I even suggested to a
clinical psychologist that cognitive behavioral therapy might be back
to front, rather than using thought's and behavior's to change how we
feel, we should use feeling's to change what we think and how we
behave. Not quite sure how that might work.
When you loved her, did it feel like a chore to show it? I'd suggest
not, those actions that are from love are an expression of it. Does a
junkie find it difficult or a chore to find the next hit. Then if she
loves you it's not an imposition on her to show it, she's not
expending anything. If you love a pet cat you just feed it, and give
it milk and pat it when it meow's at your feet, and if occasionally it
brings home a mouse you say good cat and pat it's head. How much gets
spent on cat food every year, I'm sure your better company than a
stupid cat. I once had to go to an old ladies house and kill a rat for
her because the cat wouldn't have a bar of it, she still feed him and
patted him and not once did she complain about it. If that cat has a
place it can find that much love, I'm sure you have hope.
Funny how we automatically want people to be happy and cheerful, I've
never met you but I am compelled to try to cheer you up 'cause you
sound so... hope-less, as though you feel useless and lack self
esteem. Also interesting is that I'm not skilled at cheering myself
up, or calming myself down when I feel angered or threatened, It
almost seems two faced. telling you every-thing's "sweet as" when I
have trouble convincing myself.
sparx104
I've ever wanted is a family - a wife & kids.
I get "upset" when I see couples on the street (I have to avoid going
out these days) - but because it reminds me that I'm alone - that I
had that and don't now (or am likely to again) - not because I feel
"what right to they have to be loved whilst I'm not" - I have no right
to think that. They presumably did the right thing, or have whatever
women want which has meant that they have found someone. I do not.
That is my problem - I have no right to a) expect anything and b) have
something at anyone else's expense - what I understand as jealousy. I
am not jealous of them - yes I want what they have (to be loved) but
not to "take" it from them. This is a poor explanation, I had worked
it out in my head but can't explain it properly.
Using the toast analogy: If I see someone with toast, and I want toast
then *I* have to find a means to get toast (I do like toast...). It
is wrong to expect that person to give up the toast they have - they
have (presumably) gained it themselves so I must arrange it myself in
a way which doesn't affect what they have - to take anything from them
because I want it is wrong. Summed up: if I see someone has toast I
make myself toast - I do not expect them to share theirs, or begrudge
them it.
In most circumstances tho I do not want what other's have - my brother
is always jealous of other people's cars - I have a perfectly
serviceable car, my mother always wants someone else's bigger house -
I don't need a large house etc. - I've never *wanted* anything (or
been aware of it anyway) until now. And in picking wanting to be
loved I've picked the one thing which isn't open to me.
No, nothing was ever a chore - I did everything because I wanted to -
because I saw that it made her happy - the only thing I wanted was for
her to be happy. (I even got banned from a mobile phone shop in one
incident). I liked making her happy. I don't like plans to change
once made, and she would often change them - but it didn't matter
since it made her life easier and I knew that no matter how stressed I
felt due to the change I would feel so much better once she turned
up. There were lots of little things like that but none of it
mattered as I loved her, and as long as she was there I was happy.
I actually have no idea about whether it should be (my brother always
gave the impression that seeing his [now ex] gf was a chore - I
couldn't understand that), I also don't understand people who complain
about going shopping with their partner - I just wanted to be with
her. I have no idea about junkies, I appear to be immune to
addiction. Obsession yes - I can become obsessed with things but then
lose all interest immediately and never go back - I have a lot of half
finished DIY projects...
She did have a cat actually (I can't have a pet - I forget to feed
them). Apparently I was about the only person it got on with aside
from her (it was very nervous). Animals like me - I get on with them
very well - I've always put it down to the fact that they seem to have
a much "simpler" way of living life - a lot like I seem to - no
politics, no one-upmanship, manipulation, lying, jealousy, emotion
etc.
I really don't see any hope: It doesn't matter how much I would love
someone if I'm never "picked" - there's always some animals at the
shelter who never get picked as they're too old, or not cute enough.
In 31 years (in June) I've not been single - and had someone to love -
for 4 months. I've never changed, I've always been a "nice guy" etc -
Either I'm doing something wrong or there simply is something wrong
with, or unlovable about, *me*. And I can't see what I've done wrong
- but whatever it is had resulted in me being *extremely* lonely.
At the last therapy group I mentioned to someone that I didn't want to
see them unhappy, and I'd do whatever I could to stop them from being
unhappy. The therapist claimed it "bought tears to his eyes". I
still don't get why. It would have been wrong to wish the guy was
unhappy surely? But at the end of the day I don't *care* - whether he
is unhappy or not has no bearing on me - it's just that if I could do
something to have made his life better then it would be wrong to hold
that back.
It is all hopeless - I cannot see an answer - I cannot see how to find
someone (and I've thought up most of the means) - anyone who loved me
would always being having to take (at best) "second best". And I have
no idea what self-esteem is supposed to be - saying how good you you
are to yourself? - with no evidence that is simply lying, and I have
no evidence, and can see through the lies.
You know, I think her first email to me said that she felt bad that I
was sad and that she wanted to try to cheer me up.
I have no means to "cheer myself up" as there is nothing to "cheer up"
about - the only thing I've ever wanted (and which actually made me
happy) is beyond my reach, and, from all angles I can see, is
permanently so - I see *very* little point in going on. Tbh, if I
wasn't worried about fucking it up I'd not be here. (un)fortunately I
do have a means of calming myself down, and sometimes dealing with
despair, but if it's just going to happen again there is no point in
continuing.
On Mar 17, 9:34 am, "\"Didyouknow....\""
"Didyouknow...."
were you wouldn't be allowed to express it. I'm not saying that
you're allowed to think that you should have something that is not
rightly yours just that you don't feel entitled to it and therefore
your rationalization is that it's not appropriate to want it.
You get upset if you see couple's on the street, "upset"? It's
possibly jealousy you feel your not allowed to feel.
Who says you have no right to expect anything.
Sometimes I feel that if I get too tight (close) with people they will
develop expectations of me. because of the possibility of developing
responsibilities that I fear I will stuff up and then that person will
be angry with me, this whole thing causes me anxiety so I avoid deep
connections with people or indeed organization's. Because I avoid
these expectations, fear these expectations, I feel that they are
wrong and I find myself using similar rationalizations.
At the moment I don't feel so anxious and up to most task's presented
to me so I find it perfectly reasonable too have such interactions.
You are quite correct in saying you "have no right to think
that" (when you see couple's) But you have every right to feel it.
I propose that love is not a zero sum game, it benefits both parties,
and the more love you feel and express the more you benefit.
Maybe jealous is the wrong word perhaps envy, "want what someone else
has".
When was the last time you got an ego boost.
I reckon if you felt half decent about your self you'd start to think
more creatively and see more possibilities. (And start to use that
massive intellect for the good of all man rather than the destruction
of one).
At the end of the day you certainly don't deserve to feel unworthy
(who does?) And your state of mind is more important than not lying.
Truth is such a fickle bitch, how can you ever be 100% honest, let
alone all the time.
Probably you've got a raw ego on account of the fact you don't get
when you're being teased. (That could be one of my issues anyway, Im
possibly just projecting here)
Trust you to take a perfectly goo cat analogy and turn it into a...
negative point of view. (your not incorrect, but still that was good
bullshit I made up).
Self esteem is having a positive self image, when you think about your
self you feel good. I can tell from your writing you don't feel good
about your self. This is a shame because you could be far more useful
to yourself, and possibly society at large, if you did.
When was the last time you wrote a bit of code (or did whatever) and
said "Fuck Im Good"?
Didn't mean to go on this long.
All the Best.
sparx104
"twisted inside". And generally results in having to be alone. And
crying - seem to do a lot, never did before all this.
She was the only person I've ever been close to - friends, family etc.
could disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't care/it wouldn't bother me.
As far as I've figured out a lot of people have expectations of me -
and they will be fulfilled, it'll be out of a sense of duty tho -
nothing else.
I don't feel necessarily that I'm not entitled to love - just that I'm
not entitled to *expect* love - that I need to "provide" something -
after all, whatever I've been "providing" so far hasn't worked/been
enough or whatever. "Everyone finds someone eventually" is obviously
bollocks as, based on previous experience/evidence, it doesn't apply
and isn't going to happen. But I've no idea how or what to do.
"I want what someone else has" doesn't really apply in a concrete
sense - I don't see a couple and think "I'd like her as my gf" (I feel
the same no matter what their ages) - it's more the "experience" -
loving/caring for someone, holding hands, laughing together etc. And
it's usually because I remember having them as compared to a wanting.
For the first time ever I actually managed to *feel* something other
than null, or crap and I've no way to get it back.
I don't do "ego boosts" (I've had this argument with someone else - I
don't recognise that I have an ego in that sense) - I know I'm good at
some things, but others are good at things I'm crap at - so what? I
use what I'm good at to help others or solve problems. As I said - I
recently learned another programming language, so what? - I figured I
could do it, I did it. I fail to understand why I should be
"impressed" - many other people have done it. If I solve a problem in
a particularly interesting way I can see that it was "good" or perhaps
be impressed by the simplicity etc. but it doesn't matter if I did it
or someone else did - the end result is the same - I'm not "impressed"
that I did it the result, or method might be impressive but it doesn't
make any difference who did it.
I recently took a home test for Mensa and scored 155 (I think that's
supposed to be IQ) which means I'm in the top 1% of the score. Aside
from my mother (who saw me take the test) you're the only other person
to know. I always guessed I must have a decent IQ - this just proves
it. And it doesn't make me "happy" - at the end of the day, it
provides no means to get me what I want. In fact, the guys I knew
from school who left early, or never paid any attention etc. are all
married and have families. No - I was too stupid to listen to the
bollocks of "stay in school - do well", and that shite. When at the
end of the day the only thing that matters is to have someone to share
this fucking life with. And, that being the one thing I've always
wanted, I've screwed up any chance of that.
She mentioned once that I never really told her what I did whilst we
weren't together. It never occurred to me that she'd care (aside from
the fact that it didn't always occur to me that she didn't actually
know). Of course, once I knew she wanted to know I tried to tell her
more (I think that was greeted with a negative response too) I was
always interested in what she did - I found her fascinating. She
always used to get defensive about having a degree for some reason - I
never understood why - education != intelligence, and even then, it
didn't make any difference to me - I loved *her* - how intelligent she
was never came into it (I can't really explain what *did* come into
it).
You're right - I've never been able to figure out when I'm being
teased (it's also quite difficult to actually insult me). Although I
have very few contacts with people now so it's not a problem, it was
whilst I was at school tho.
Many people have gone on about self-esteem and self-image but I've
never been aware of it - before all this I'd never "looked at myself"
etc. (I do wonder if something along the lines of starting that was
what caused the problem during the CBT). As of now all I can see is
someone who's extremely lonely and unable to do anything about it -
everything's just a dead end. Whether I *am* unworthy of being loved
or not, the evidence appears to prove that I am, and, like I say, I've
no way to even try to prove it wrong. And anyway, how am I supposed
to prove anything wrong without evidence to support it: you'll find
someone eventually - bollocks, you're a good person - I know, doesn't
help tho, etc.
On Mar 18, 9:34 am, "\"Didyouknow....\""
"Didyouknow...."
"Everyone find's someone eventually" is purely an irrational belief,
ungrounded and only repeated often to comfort those who hear it. I
think the value in the belief is the state of mind it creates. If your
emotionally intelligent enough you can believe the lie, then you are
receptive to the possibility of finding someone which increases your
chances of finding someone.
At the end of the day you don't believe in right or wrong, correct?
There is no god and no moral code written by Him sent to man as an
instruction manual for life.
There are moral's and laws accumulated by man, but they aren't right
or wrong, society either works or not, correct? Loa Tzu "If it is not
the way it will not last."
If this is all true then allowing yourself to believe the lie is
appropriate in this situation because from that point of view you have
more option's than from "no evidence to support it". You want to feel
a certain way(love). It's not wrong.
sparx104
way that I can accept that the world might end tomorrow or that the
next lottery ticket I buy may be a winner - these are quantifiable and
can be backed up with evidence (and quantum mechanics). However, I
cannot *believe* it because the evidence doesn't support it. It's not
a case of trying, or allowing, that belief - I simply do not have the
ability to believe in such things - hence atheism - can't believe in
god either.
Life is random (but deterministic) - I fail to understand how
"believing I will find someone" can have any bearing on actually
finding them - there is no causal link. The lottery and the world
ending have such vanishing chances of actually happening that they
both can be discounted - the world hasn't ended yet and I know of no-
one who has won the lottery. On the other hand - almost everyone I
know who wants a relationship has one - it *should* be possible - but
it isn't. I would try to improve the "chances" but can't: I don't
function well in noisy social environments - pubs/clubs etc so they're
out. There is nothing around here which would enable me to meet
single women my age - observation shows that there are in fact almost
no single women about 30 anyway - they've all got families. I'd try
internet dating but am unemployed (and, it would appear, from many
attempts, unable to work at this point) - this ties into the "nothing
to offer" side of it.
Correct - there is no "cosmic" right or wrong - as a man once wrote -
"take the universe and grind everything down, then show me one atom of
right, wrong, justice, belief etc." But morals dictate that there are
right and wrong within given contexts or interactions. This is
society - without such "rules" it doesn't exist. However, whether "it
is right" or whether I "have the right" are different - it is not
right or wrong for me to *want* to be loved as a general concept (I am
not "asking for" anything beyond what others are), whether I have any
right to "expect" it - without the ability to offer anything of
"value" in return, or whether I have the right to ask for it from
someone or expect it from them are different.
The first is a general concept not much different to "it is right to
be alive" (unfortunately) [or at least "being alive is not wrong" -
right != not wrong] - I'm not "taking" anything from someone else
(obviously I am using resources but that is part of a different
system), however on a sinking ship with women and children I have no
right to take a place a woman or child could take.
The last CBT group I did was based around a simple process - list the
problem, figure out the emotions, evidence them (for/against) and try
to come up with a statement you can believe which is a) more realistic
and b) more "positive". I could never do it for a number of reasons -
the first being that I cannot determine what I'm feeling (hence this
group...) - I only know I'm lonely because I wasn't when I was with
her and seeing/hearing about etc. couples makes it worse. I don't
"feel" lonely as a labellable "emotion" - I feel shit because I'm
alone. And, even if I could follow it through the end result is a lie
- it's bending the truth or facts to try to "feel better" - I can see
*how* it should work but it doesn't. I have applied the method to
concrete situations though so it's not that I don't understand it - I
just can't use it.
I guess it's the same with sympathy - I can understand why it appears
to be "good" thing for people (and can try to provide it - as long as
I'm aware it's wanted and I'm devoting enough attention to providing
it - no attention means no providing), and in some ways I can
understand the mechanism by which it works, but it doesn't work for
me.
Regarding emotional intelligence I recall a test I took a while ago
about EQ (the emotional version of IQ) and SQ - the opposite to
emotion (called "systemising" according to the page). I just found it
and took it again, here's the results:
The male and female values are averages for "normal" - the relative
values and difference between SQ & EQ are important rather than the
actual values (wonder why the test doesn't normalise them. Odd.)
EQ: male: 39.0, female: 61.2, me: 7
SQ: male: 48.0, female: 51.7, me: 107
It's from here: http://eqsq.com/eq_test.php (the "tests" link 404's -
that link will let you take both tests)
On Mar 19, 8:18 am, "\"Didyouknow....\""
"Didyouknow...."
home from the pub, It was unusually pleasant for me, as I was with a
heap of people from a club I am involved with and we've just had a big
event. (usually I try to find an excuse to leave - I still left before
most people but still it was good.)
Interestingly enough the town I live in suffers the same problem, the
general population (15,000) is 60 percent over the age of 40. Most of
the remainder are at school, and the rest are what I call Breeders,
hence the reason I'm moving to the city, i have friend's who like to
discuss all sort's of interesting crap there. The other issue is that
the place has typically male dominated industries, which means there's
also a lot of single male's in the area, also looking for girlfriends,
and not many single girls.
I'll try to have a more in depth look later on.
sparx104
came across a picture of her whilst sorting some papers, and whilst
flicking through some DVDs to find one to watch suddenly remembered
that I don't think we ever saw the end of a film - we always ended up
in bed first. If these are supposed to be "fond" memories instead of
ones which require you to turn to razor blades to avoid jumping in the
river then I'd like to know how/when that's going to happen. I also
appear to be figuring out how to determine whether it's (general)
loneliness or missing her which is making me feel shit at any given
point.
This place's primary population is Polish immigrants. Aside from that
there is almost no work (the Polish take everything there is - it's
all low paid). And nothing if you want a "career".
I'll leave you to think about the other post instead of putting more
here to make the job harder.
On Mar 20, 12:05 pm, "\"Didyouknow....\""
"Didyouknow...."
ticket's. I'd like to at least do an intro paper at uni, just to get
an idea.
I've come to the same conclusion, that life is deterministic but
unpredictable. I struggled with the concept's of existentialism and
determinism (do we have choice) and figure its a pointless endeavor
because we can never test it out, or what's making the choice.
People do break society's rules all the time, because they feel
they'll get away with it, or are prepared to accept the risk. Do you
think that because your so good at picking apart arguments (not
arguing itself) you pick apart your own even as your forming them. And
I'll bet that you feel as though every one else can too (you've said
you forget people don't know what you know - so do I), and you'll even
imagine what that argument will sound like, making you tense and on
edge.
I had a girlfriend once that I could not understand why she was with
me, made no sense to me, I had nothing to offer at the time. I thought
I resented her for it, I just didn't like her but didn't feel I could
break it off.
Pity CBT doesn't work, It does require an amount of emotional
intelligence to begin with. I've been trying to start practicing
optimism as a mental skill, (distance self from failure, without
denying responsibility, and learning lessons. Take full responsibility
for success, and think about attribute's that helped to succeed and
how they help for successes in future endeavors).
Neuro linguistics says to start the day with leading questions such
as, what make's me feel loved, Successful, happy etc, I found it
difficult to remember ever feeling those thing's (i think Emotional
intelligence would need an emotional memory) so you come up against a
similar problem as CBT.
So that's why i reckon we need to bypass thinking, rational, logical
path's. we need a back door to emotion's.
Had heaps of social interaction's this weekend, felt a few time's I
was not "emoting" correctly, but as the weekend went on I felt like it
was less and less of an issue, I just didn't mind and was able to
think about other stuff to talk about.
I've taken the first part of the test, 27, found it hard to imagine
myself in some context's.
Your score's are very spread. What the hell was that "cutting up
worm's" question? How Random was that?
Just took second part 59. Said extreme systematizing.
I know it possibly doesn't mean much to you but I do hop you start to
see a ways out of your funk.
"Didyouknow...."
I'm starting to think republican's are emotionally intelligent, they
can seem to exploit reason but are not bound by it. Like they decide
where they want to go first and then use reason to doggedly go there,
at any cost. I'll bet most of the alex's will not vote republican/
national.
sparx104
is possible, it's not until it's observed that a discrete state exists
(Schrödinger's Cat, the Copenhagen interpretation and quantum suicide
are related [and interesting] topics) - it's possible for me to find a
girlfriend but without being in a situation to actually try I cannot
find out.
Although I don't believe in determinism (except in a specific way
related to time but it's not determinism per se) it wouldn't matter as
even if there was something guiding what we do we'd either not know
about it (if we did we could opt to change it) and have no control
over it (we would feel the "push" in that direction).
I do have these arguments "in my head" with myself - usually in
exactly these terms, that's not really the problem (it was the reason
the blog was set up however). The problem is simply that I want to
find someone to love and I have no means to do it - whether I feel I
have a right to be loved or not I still need to try, but without
anything to offer I just don't see how it can happen - and what's the
point in setting yourself up to just fail?
It doesn't matter how much people say "you've a lot to offer" - that
I'm a "nice guy", I'm sincere, loving, honest etc. I'm also
unemployed, unattractive and seriously fucked up - I have *no* means
to show the good traits vs. the bad, and even if I did get close to
someone they're going to run a mile.
Oddly, I've always considered myself an optimist. Failure doesn't
mean I won't try again (often quite doggedly) - I *want* to try to
find a gf, I just don't know *how* to. And with the problems I have
(depression, self harm) etc. I don't see how or what there is to offer
that would make someone want to make the effort (not that a) I'd ever
involve anyone else in my problems - she never had to deal with any of
my problems, and b) most of the problems are in fact due to being
lonely). I just *really* do not see it happening - everytime I try to
think of ways to find someone etc. I just hit dead ends and more
reasons for it to not work. And the other solution is becoming an all
consuming thought.
I asked her once why she was with me (I'd "fancied" her from the
moment I first saw her - she was pretty, quiet but laughed a lot and
we had a lot in common) she said she'd hoped that since I had similar
problems to her I'd be able to relate to her better than others. It
didn't matter why whilst we were together tho - she *was* with me and
that was all that mattered. I was "scared" of losing her (and wonder
if I ever really accepted that she was with me).
Not sure the neuro-linguistic stuff is going to help much... (what
makes me feel loved - loving someone, successful - nothing and don't
care, happy - loving someone etc). I'm in the same boat wrt to
memories - I'm not even sure I "felt" loved whilst we were together -
I felt *something*, and it was for the first, and only time and I want
it again - but, like I said, have no means to "find" it.
I can deal with social environments when it's one-on-one or very small
groups (in which I usually treat it as one-on-one anyway) as I can
keep track of what's going on and what I "should" be doing. However,
it's stressful and after a while it becomes too much - if I'm aware of
problems starting I'll leave but often I'm not, in which case I just
"turn off" and become unresponsive. I like talking one-on-one (I
liked talking to her). And, frankly, friends just seem too much work
most of the time - I only see the (few) friends I have at defined
times, when I did work I almost never saw those I worked with outside
work. Although I can get on with anyone etc. I have no desire for
friends or human contact - except for someone to love. She was the
same - something else I'd hoped we had in our favour...
I can't remember the worms question, I guess it was about taking them
apart to see how they worked? I've never done it with animals (is
wrong) although I do read biology books etc. (and have dissected dead
stuff) and am fascinated by how it all works. I do take anything
mechanical apart to see how it works. I also have the ability to fix
almost any mechanism whether I've seen it in working order or not - I
can just "see" how it should go together.
My scores on the test are at the extreme end of both scales (in a
"bad" way) - I also score very high on the Alex test and the AS one.
Don't watch the Daily Show (in the UK) and don't find John Stewart
amusing anyway but all your politicians seem nuts (ours are just
corrupt thieves). The republicans just seem to be extremely
conservative for the sake of it.
Thanks for the sentiment - I know what'll make me "happy" but can't
get it. Although jumping off a bridge is a close second (and much
more likely at the moment).
On Mar 22, 9:43 am, "\"Didyouknow....\""
"Didyouknow...."
Funny how we still haven't figured out the sorry thing!
I do wonder if we've got a bit of a blind leading the blinder thing
going on here, we need an actor or musician to explain some of this
shit.
Maybe a change in location would help you also? I'm betting it all on
a fresh start, in a place that has a bit more progress and a heap more
women. Gorgeous women!
I've been told I'm a introvert, I don't agree, I think I'm currently
introverted and a change of environment will create a change in that
and that I'll become extroverted.
sparx104
has no effect whatsoever on us - we already have the "socialist" care
they are complaining about.
Unfortunately I don't have the ability to move elsewhere. As I'm
unemployed I can only get welfare to pay the rent here (you have to
have strong connection to the area you're claiming in). That's
another vicious cycle: trying to work just starts the stress and
anxiety problems in that direction off again and I end up having to
quit after a few days. Without a job I'm not going to find anyone yet
whilst we were together I "felt" able to try to work again - no matter
how crap I felt from working I would have been able to look forward to
seeing her and that would have helped to deal with the stress - seeing
her always made me feel "better" no matter how crap the time apart had
been. It's catch-22 and I don't see a way out - I need a job to find
someone and having someone would mean I could get a job. All the
depression/anxiety stuff I've read says to look to your partner -
"use" them for support and to let you "get away" from the problems -
to provide relief and give you something to cherish, not possible
without a partner.
I'm not particularly introverted or extroverted. I can easily
approach people and talk to them (or "at" them) - it often requires
that they start first as I have no way to tell if they want to talk -
eg. in queues or waiting rooms. If there's something "in common" -
eg. the weather, what the queue is for then I can start a
conversation. However, I find it very difficult to a) start a
conversation without knowing that the other person wants to and b)
"impose" on anyone. Even now, whilst I feel so crap, I'm still
"sociable" with shop staff and such - I can joke with them even tho
10mins later I'll end up crying. No one deserves to suffer because I
am. I have to be actively paying attention to what's going on for
this to work - if I'm not then I'm not aware of people even being
around - I just "turn off" - I actually get quite a shock when someone
does something which "wakes" me up.
And, tbh, it doesn't matter if I moved elsewhere - I still have no
idea how to meet someone. The same problems apply with pubs/clubs etc
- and I still have nothing to "offer". It's not like I have "high
standards" (I hate that phrase) - there are very few women I don't
find physically attractive (many more who have unpleasant
personalities mind) - I just don't have any way to *meet* them (even
assuming there are any in the first place). And, tbh, even if did I
really don't have any idea what to "do". It was only once I knew what
she wanted that I was able to "provide" it.
I've read plenty of poetry etc. and none of it "means" anything.
Art's the same - I explained to someone: I can "appreciate" art for
it's technical skill, but it's "message" is totally lost on me. Oth,
you're not the first person to have had the idea...
"No - no words. No words to describe it.
Poetry! They should've sent a poet.
So beautiful. So beautiful... I had no idea."
- "Ellie Arroway", Contact (1997)
* http://www.sparx104.co.uk/?p=where_
* http://9gag.com/gag/19910/
On Mar 23, 9:02 am, "\"Didyouknow....\""
"Didyouknow...."
lack of them, like you say you've a tendency to talk at people rather
than to them. I find myself doing this and I sort of wonder weather to
bother finishing what I'm saying or just shut up.
Also it's interesting how you have a desire not to impose on people
with your problems. I went through some kind of depression thing a
while ago, and that was very much my attitude, to keep my shit to
myself and not burden other's with it. I didn't even tell my folk's I
was going to therapy. No-one at all for that matter. I just thought
"I'll take care of it!" The other thing was if I was talking to
anybody I'd smile my best and act like I had no issues. It's weird
'cause I'd be the first to offer an ear to any one else, and a hand if
I could give it.
Nitro
"vulnerable" and this is actually what helps people to stay together.
For people with alex, the rules of the game changes completely...
On Mar 22, 11:35 am, "\"Didyouknow....\""
sparx104
Beforehand I knew I was "odd" but never actually looked at why, nor
was able to "identify" them. As long as I'm paying attention it's
like having a hypervisor - I'm monitoring everything I'm saying/doing
and trying to figure out whether it's "right" or "wrong". It takes a
lot of effort (and can get confused with what I'm actually doing) but
allows "normal" functioning to some degree - it allows me to be
"sympathetic" etc. (as long as I have a reference for the situation).
The problem is that unless I'm paying attention it doesn't happen -
without the "auditing" I just say what's there. I guess that's why it
happened with her - simply being with her was so overwhelming that it
wasn't "running" - I wasn't able to "concentrate" enough, or think
coherently enough, to do the "filtering"/"auditing".
I tend to know when people have had enough because they either change
the subject totally or just say shut up. Occasionally I'll figure out
what I'm doing and just stop talking.
I guess I was always "told" or "bought up" to not bother other's with
my problems but to always help others - so I do. I also don't see
much point in "talking" about my problems - they are my problems.
Even this whole thread started with a question - it had a point, not
just to "talk it out" (this is not a complaint about the thread). I
guess this is why therapy doesn't work - it's interesting (like this)
but of no actual *use*.
"Vulnerable" or not - having nothing to offer (or offering only
negatives) means I am, and will remain, alone - don't like/can't do
clubs, internet dating is out as no job and there's always someone
"better" (and eharmony - which is supposed to use different criteria -
blacklists mental health), even the lonely hearts ads require "own
house, car and no baggage" - just no means full stop to meet anyone
(it occurs I may have listed these elsewhere - sorry for the
repetition)
Frankly, I'm aware enough of *my* problems that I could probably be
able to cope with someone "normal" (and willing to accept the odd
"mistake") but a) it assumes they'll put up with me (and I have the
"right" to "impose" on them) and b) I have no way to find someone.
"Didyouknow...."
don't respond with interest I stay quiet. Once a Girl was telling me
about problem's with parent's (tears and all) and all I could offer
was a neuro fact about couples breaking up. I can "operate" on most
people's level for a bit - couple of days at most - but after a while
the mistake's start to pile up and I need to get away, having lot's of
different interactions seems to help. Also caffeine, but that
generally result's in a sugar crash, that make's me feel more "odd".
I don't like talking about my problems either, it seems like it's
burdening on others. I always want to help other's problem's even
though I don't always feel I can manage it.
True about the "it's interesting but un-useful".
Don't sweat the repetition it's help's to add context, and continuity
and I forget details.
sparx104
weather etc) with people. I think I've mentioned that she used to say
that I never talked about what I did. When it did occur to me to say
things I didn't/don't because a) as well as not knowing when people
are uninterested I can't tell when people *are* interested and b) no-
one ever has been. I have no problem with talking about anything - as
long as I'm asked - then I know the other party is interested - I
always used to ask how she'd been, how her day was etc - because I
*wanted* to know. If I know someone's interests I can talk about
them, or I can talk about the person in general - ironically I'd
probably be good on a "date" in that respect - not that I have (or am
likely to) ever been on one.
I always try to help others (whether I "want" to is more difficult -
most of the time it's out of duty/expectation, with her I *wanted* to
do things for her - that was a new experience - something else I'd
like to "feel" again). Unfortunately it generally doesn't actually
occur to me that I cannot always help - the attempts can then make
things worse it appears, which just becomes more confusing as I rarely
understand why.
When we were together she would mention her problems and I would
generally try to relate them to similar situations I've had. Someone
saying they're sad means nothing to me, saying they're sad because of
a specific incident means I can recall a similar incident (assuming I
can - if not then I'm useless) and "understand" some of what they're
experiencing (at lease from my point of view anyway). She said I was
just making everything about me. I fail to understand that as how are
you supposed to "relate" otherwise? And I never "made it about me" -
I may have used my situation for possible answers but never tried to
change the subject to my problems etc. After all, this seems the
point of group therapy too.
I have no actual problem talking about my problems (or anything for
that matter - something else which seems to cause mistakes - I don't
have any secrets and it fails to occur to me that others do). I have
to be careful in therapy groups as I can talk for whole sessions - or
at least until I lose interest, then I just stop - this is because I
know there is interest and it's not, as you say, a burden (I also try
to help here too). I don't really like asking for help full stop -
being a burden or taking up someone's time which could be used
elsewhere. I can eventually manage to get over it enough to ask for
help from services which are there to help but even then it's
difficult and I'll only take as little as I can and do the rest
myself.
The repetition is usually because I don't read back over the previous
posts unless I really have to - I'm likely to lose concentration if I
do and end up doing something else.
And I can't have caffeine - I'm always stressed/"wound up" enough as
it is (twitching etc.) - that just makes it worse (a lot).
Sorry for the delay again - I'm still having a hard time. I'd like to
know at what point memories go from "heart-rending" to "fond" - the
only way I can see is when you've found someone else? Not that that's
ever going to happen.
On Mar 27, 10:24 am, "\"Didyouknow....\""
"Didyouknow...."
supposed to show that you feel exactly the same about that scenario,
as if you were there in her shoes. At least that is what I've picked
up from what I've read.
What's your diet like, and do you exercise?
My diet's not a grade, but I do get a lot of exercise, and I always
feel better for it.
Twitching? (I get something like this - I'd call it cringing, but it
varies, could be called a twitch, I suppress it publicly)
BTW I don't care if you repeat your self or if you don't reply for a
time, this is all interesting but I don't want you to have to make a
massive effort. just say what ever you want and explore what ever
topics you think are relevant - or irrelevant.
sparx104
"been through" the same sort of thing. I don't know how else you're
supposed to do it.
I don't really each much - nothing really has any taste any more so I
just don't bother - my fridge currently contains only some mouldy
cheese and half a bottle of wine that's 6months old. Oth, I can
occasionally have a sudden "desire" to eat something (eg. crisps,
bread) and may buy some - in which case I'll eat it all at once
despite trying to eat it over several days.
I do get exercise - I often walk a few miles around town (at night
when there's no-one else around) and I have various bits of equipment
I use most days. Doing it doesn't make me "feel" any better though -
it never has.
The "twitching" is being "wound up" - it's not just twitches but it
"feels" like being tightly wound up or under pressure. It comes with
the physical feeling of wanting to run away. Some other noticable
effects are pacing around - I might get up to put the kettle on and
notice 10mins later that I'm still pacing around the room and the
kettle's gone cold. Instead of just getting up I might "spring up"
and, since that takes me by surprise, end up tripping over as I didn't
mean to get up so quick. It happens to walking too. It has some more
problematic effects too - it results in driving very fast and badly,
if anyone annoys me in any way I'm likely to "explode" at them, I also
bite my mouth & skin. I appear to have a number of OCD-type things
which get considerably worse too. It also seems to "speed up"
thinking - I can't concentrate on a single thought and have many at
great speed. I'm not able to actually start anything I've thought
about tho - if I try I either lose concentration almost immediately or
just can't start for some reason. The twitches come from sitting down
instead of pacing - and I can't really suppress them - if I try I
might be able to do it for a few seconds but then they just come back
worse. It also results in fairly severe jaw ache after a bit as I'll
unconsciously clamp my jaw shut and by the time I realise I'm doing it
find that I can't hardly open it. It also makes me tired quickly.
And, despite always feeling suicidal the general total despair state
means there's no actual motivation to do anything about it. It's in
this state that I've made attempts - both the one which landed me in
the hospital and a recent one where I was on the way to the bridge
when I realised that I hadn't written a note to someone and went back
to do it and ended up using the razor blades to "solve" it - that's
the main situation where they work.
I've always described it as like something being charged with static
electricity - the charge builds and you start to get sparks and such,
then all of a sudden it arcs and discharges, then the process starts
again. It comes on quickly (or at least I don't notice it coming on
gradually) and it goes in the same way.
Cringing is a good term actually. Usually in the depression state
things which make me "feel" worse will do just that - I'll "feel" even
more despair and usually end up crying. In this state it'll result in
everything (muscles) tensing or "screwing" up for a moment - I've
described it as something "twisting inside", depending on the "reason"
it'll also result in crying and (to a lesser extent) despair.
There appears to be a name for it anyway:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychomotor_agitation
On Mar 29, 11:52 am, "\"Didyouknow....\""
"Didyouknow...."
could explain a lot. Your empathy might not have been entirely
comfortable to her once she had gone from wanting to be with you to
starting to not.
I think any-one would recommend a healthy diet, there's plenty of
evidence it can help with psychological and behavioral problem's.
Walking is okay exercise but I'd recommend something with more high
intensity, running or cycling perhaps, something to get the blood
pumping and oxygen flowing.
I do realize giving advise is probably a bit like giving a man in a
sinking boat instructions on how to bail water, at best you'll just
piss him of, and you'd be luck not to have the bucket thrown at you. I
do wonder if your leaving out life's basic's, while searching for
novel magic bullet's. This is a criticism that fits myself, and maybe
the world at large, so perhaps it applies to you also?
Psychomotor Agitation sound's like a real bitch of a thing to live
with. It almost sound's like a amphetamine addict's symptom's. For me
I simply have memories that bubble to the surface occasionally,
randomly and unexpectedly that fill me with regret and dread or panic.
This make's me cringe and sometimes swear, which I can suppress when
around people. The memories fade quickly and trying to remember what
the matter was becomes difficult, I may remember the situation but not
the reason behind the emotion.
sparx104
"happy" to "work around" them - I did love her, and would have (and
tried to) do anything for her. Even though she seemed to take
everything the "wrong way" - she'd always twist what I said into
negatives I could never see - I tried to understand and change to not
do it. I did love her - she was (and, from what I can see, is going
to be) the only person I ever have loved so I've nothing to "compare"
against.
An example: her favourite film was The Crow, which I had on DVD and
she borrowed. She mentioned in a text that she was going to watch it
and I said she'd enjoy it and mentioned that it can be seen as a love
story. I'd forgotten that it was her favourite film (I've mentioned
that it was difficult to concentrate whilst I was with her) and she
accused me of being patronising and taking the piss - I can't
understand why? I only learned it was a love story from reading a
review (I just thought it was about revenge) and I've never come
across anyone else who has so I pointed it out - I can't understand
why she reacted like that. If someone suggested something like that
to me about anything such as my favourite film (Bladerunner) I'd take
it as a queue to start a conversation about it - not to have a go at
them. And especially as she *knew* I loved her - I cannot see why she
would assume I was "having a go at her" - she did this a lot.
I also said that despite the impossibility of coming back from the
dead I'd certainly try to do so for her. I meant it romantically in
the theme of the film but she just said that I'd told her that it
meant that I wouldn't be bothered to try and that I didn't love her.
In the end she said that she was looking for a way to end it. But it
doesn't stop it hurting.
I don't know about diet - eating just makes me sick these days, that
coupled with the lack of taste makes it pointless. I do take
multivitamin pills occasionally and in the 6yrs since this was
diagnosed I've tried everything.
I have a rowing machine, my bike was stolen a while ago. I also have
a cycling thing which consists of just the pedals and you sit wherever
to use it. I do 10,000 revolutions a day (and have now broken it from
overuse).
I have memories, and I guess "hopes"? which turn up randomly (although
seeing couples triggers them) which make me feel shit - I can't even
say if it's regret, or dread - I could understand it being both
(regret that I used to "feel" good/have what they have, but now don't,
dread that I'm never going to get it again) but I can't actually
assign what it is to the "feeling shit" ("assign" is not the right
term but I can't come up with a better one). They're almost always
related to being lonely or her - I don't really have any memories of
much else (except various "mistakes" but they don't really provoke a
reaction). I have discovered that they often come with the sensation
of the hair on my back standing up in a "wave", along with a wave of
feeling hot. There's never any actual "emotional memory" - they tend
to turn up as statements rather than experiences. I guess if you
don't recognise the "emotion" at the time you don't remember it. Or,
if it is there then whatever causes it to not be "felt" the first time
has the same effect during the "replay".
I tend to only get the agitation for a couple of weeks then it will
turn back to despair for a longer period then repeat. I guess it's
triggered by something but I cannot remember what. It seems like
extreme stress - it's like wanting to run away all the time -
sometimes I will physically run from a room or such until it "kicks
in" that that won't work.
Offer whatever advice you want - if I didn't want advice then I had no
right to post this. Something else I've never understood: why ask for
advice if you don't want it or are going to just ignore it? If you
don't want it then don't ask in the first place.
I don't really understand the life basics bit - *nothing* in life has
ever provided any "enjoyment" - I do things because I should or must
or from duty - I've never "wanted" anything (up until now anyway). I
guess with no "emotional" content life is pretty much "meaningless" -
hence the other thread about whether you actually *want* to be alive -
whether being alive is actually worth anything to you. In (almost)
31yrs, the only time I've "felt" anything good - that wasn't shit, or
"neutral", was the 4.5months we were together. And that's gone, and
I've *no* means to get it, or anything like it, back.
On Apr 1, 6:15 am, "\"Didyouknow....\""
"Didyouknow...."
you, you would find those situation's hilarious (once you were feeing
better), they would make for an outstanding sitcom. It's pretty tragic
really.
Funnily enough I've had a similar experience with a girl who got upset
because I told her that I didn't believe in life after death, soul's
or spirit's. My parent's argue a lot and the argument's seem to follow
the same formula, he's keeps going over the facts and she keeps making
emotional (and comically nonsensical) arguments. I've tried to explain
to my father that perhaps the most important thing in a discussion is
not simply the fact's, but also the feeling's of the participants.
Like you though he constantly gets misconstrued, as if he's trying to
be a tyrant, and hurt people intentionally. It's fuckin' hilarious to
watch, not so much fun for them. Frustrating for both of them
actually.
Perhaps it's a skill you could learn.
Sound's like you get enough exercise.
Diet is easy, just eat heaps of vegetable's, some fruit, some meat's
mostly chicken and fish and take something to give you heaps of
vitamin D (1000IU/day), and lots of omega 3, and you should start to
feel like a human again, also I always feel hungrier after watching a
cooking show.
I wonder if because I'm taken the wrong way so much, whether it's
being taken the wrong way or being teased, I try to be overly tactful.
Hence the reason I give advice tentatively. And advice is just that
advice, you can do with it as you will, just consider it, and make up
your own mind. Also you have every right just to have a bitch,
everyone else does it, I don't see why you can't occasionally.
Have you tried getting a massage to relieve that pent up tension?
What about relaxation technique?
sparx104
wouldn't understand them. I don't take any joy from other's
"suffering" (Schadenfreude) and don't find it funny - probably why I
don't find most modern sitcoms funny (or like much modern TV) - it's
all too cruel. I do appear to have an odd sense of humour though.
I figured out that when I did something wrong then just apologising
seemed to be more "successful" than trying to explain it - she just
called the explanations "excuses" (surely an excuse requires a
"malicious" or deliberate attempt to cause the initial problem?) -
this was one of the original points raised in the question this thread
started with. It was difficult though as I *hated* upsetting her and
without knowing *what* I'd done to upset her - and to understand it -
I knew I'd probably do it again. I've mentioned elsewhere - I use
"rules" to work all this stuff out - I have to create those rules
which require a decent understanding of the situation, otherwise I
can't build them.
She had problems with paranoia (and, by extension, trust) - I put a
lot of the problems down to that and tried to "work around" them. I
have problems - she knew that. I never used them as an excuse for my
behaviour - they could explain it but if they caused a problem then I
tried to "fix" it - eg. I never said "I have X so you have to put up
with Y", I said "I have X so Y may happen - in which case I will
change it".
I don't feel hungry really - much like I don't feel hot or cold these
days - I can recognise that I am cold but not "feel" it (eg. I might
have problems typing because my hands are cold). I also have no drive
to actually change the situation - if I'm cold I have no drive to try
to warm up (not that I ever have, just that these days I "care" even
less).
If "paying attention" (the "hypervisor" from an earlier post) then I
tend to be "tactful" - or at least be much more careful to audit what
I'm saying to make sure I can see no reason it would offend someone -
the problems come with the fact that nothing offends me so I have to
have "rules" to check it against, and that if I'm not paying attention
(tired, occupied, the "overwhelming" effect of being with her) then it
doesn't work as that extra thought process of auditing it isn't
there.
An example: when writing emails or text-messages it doesn't occur that
the other person doesn't know the way I "mean" parts of it (eg. joking
etc). When paying attention I add emoticons to show it. However, if
I try to add the emoticons whilst actually writing the message I lose
track of what I'm writing - the trying to figure out what needs to be
explained, how to do it and how another person may actually see the
parts of the message gets in the way of thinking of what I'm trying to
write. Usually I write the message then go back and check it
repeatedly to try perform the checks and insert the emoticons and
perform any other edits to try to make sure the message can't be seen
in ways I've not thought of (trying to audit something for problems
you can't conceive is not easy).
This can actually take some time - sometimes 5 or 10mins for a fairly
short message. She used to complain that I often took a while to
reply to her messages - it was this causing the delay. I never really
explained it as even I figured out that saying "I have to audit the
messages to make sure I don't say something you take the wrong way"
would have been a bad thing - it was blaming her for a problem that
was mine. Once she sent a text saying she was going to do something
or other in the next few mins which would have meant she was
uncontactable so I replied quickly - and didn't do the "auditing"
properly missing off the emoticons - which then caused an argument -
however, it only occurred to me later that this was the problem - when
I'd had a chance to analyse it properly.
I have no problems with the fact that I must do the "auditing" as it's
obviously a required process - if I have to do it then I have to, like
many other "social" interactions.
I didn't explain the advice thing right: If someone asks my advice
(and vice-versa) then I will give it, and they have no right to
complain that it was given. Whether they then ignore it or not is up
to them - and doesn't bother me. Same for this thread - I have no
right complaining whatever advice you give or whatever you say as I
asked for it, but I don't have to accept it.
I've tried some relaxation techniques: slow breathing etc. just
results in hyperventilating/losing concentration and thinking of a
"serene place" doesn't work as I can't keep *any* thoughts for more
than a few seconds anyway. I also have a very poor imagination
(pretty much non-existent) so can't actually "imagine" anywhere
anyway. I do unconsciously a) perform repetitive movements - I
generally spin things round - glasses, paperclips, coins etc. I keep
coins around to make sure I have something and b) "switch off" - just
stop thinking full stop.
The latter usually occurs after some time doing the repetitive
things. I can also sometimes trigger it by playing shooter videogames
with invincibility cheats on - anything very repetitive (I also have
tried listening to white-noise loudly to try to "overload" the ability
to think at all - this sometimes triggers the "switching off"). I
have a tendency to perform repetitive movements anyway (amongst
various other OCD-ish things - touching things I walk past and so on)
- if I have hold of something I'll spin it round - if holding a tissue
or something I fold it into a square and spin it round, only noticing
that I'm doing it when someone points it out.
This stuff only seems to "work" to delay problems - they still occur
(I guess it could filter lower intensity incidences - I wouldn't
know). The only thing that works when it all really "starts" is self-
harm. Which generally works very effectively. As long as I do it
when things start to get very bad then it would stop them getting
worse, when very bad (it can occur out of nowhere at "full power") it
provides a short break. Cutting "releases" the "tension" too.
My sensitivity to touch shoots up when in this state anyway, and, as
the underlying problem here is that I have no means to find someone
special: I have no one to perform a massage.
On Apr 3, 11:51 am, "\"Didyouknow....\""
sparx104
"taking joy from other's suffering" or anything. This just
demonstrates the problem - despite reading this several times when I
posted it I didn't "notice" that it could be offensive. Only some
time later when there's been no reply did it occur to me that it may
have been (this is a carbon copy of problems with her - she'd not
reply to something and when I noticed she'd not reply I'd text her and
she'd just say she wasn't talking to me as I'd upset her, sometimes I
could figure out what it was due to as I was thinking differently).
So, I *hope* you've not replied because you're either busy, have
something better to do or have run out of things to say (I certainly
don't blame you on any count...) and I don't expect a reply, I just
don't want to have offended anyone.
Nitro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEZtw1yt8Kc
At the end the guy says that we observe reality, then we perceive
reality and then we take our perceptions as the reality. I think that
is how a large number of arguments start.
My 2cents...
"Didyouknow...."
before I got back to you sort of forgot a bit and busy a bit, but no
definitely not offended, I've just come think that you should try
meditation or relaxation again and try to see it as a skill to develop
or a process not just a singular event that is supposed to yield a
certain result. It's a skill and you don't need to succeed at it, just
try. I like meditation sitting on the side of my bed, with my back
straight to allow my lungs to fill (belly rising and falling,
shoulders still), I try to focus my mind on my breathe but it will
drift off... most of the time. Twenty minutes twice a day is my goal,
but I don't stress if I miss it, and sometimes I do longer if I have
the time. For a start my mind was full of doubt and argument, and
anger, now less so and I find myself smiling a lot, for little reason.
I'm just happier, cheekier.
Give it a go for a couple of weeks, see how you go, I dare you, and if
you don't see any results I'll give you your money back.
"Didyouknow...."
That bit about perception's/reality, sound's like something out of
buddhism.
I don't see how it's applicable, but it is interesting....
Actually I change my mind, Sparx last post is in response to an event
he worried might of happened (offense), where as in reality there was
none. He was reacting to perception not reality. I used to do this all
the time, feel like people were talking about me behind my back, I
could hear exactly what they would sound like, what they might say.
Fascinating!
sparx104
internet connection is patchy).
There's a number of interesting topics related to that video:
solipsism, "brain in a vat", the allegory of the cave and the quantum
mechanics stuff I've mentioned elsewhere. It's surprising how quantum
mechanics, philosophy and eastern religion have many cross-overs.
The worrying about upsetting people is a) fairly new and b) related
solely to upsetting her. Until this started I never "worried" about
upsetting people - it didn't really "occur" to me that I could upset
someone through something I'd said (unless it broke a "rule" - then it
was the breaking the rule which I would assume was the problem). Due
to upsetting her without the obvious rule breaking I'm left without a
clear understanding - I no longer have any reference as to whether
what I do/say is upsetting someone or not. Since the rule "do not
upset people" is still valid (many of the "X is not upsetting" rules
are not) I have to assume everything is likely to upset someone in
order to not break the first one.
I am working on an analysis of rules vs. guilt - the desire to not
upset anyone is not out of "guilt" (as I understand guilt), it's out
of a fundamental "wrongness" to break rules.
Finally, I went to see someone at Mind (a mental health charity) the
other day, she asked the question "what do you feel when something
upsets you/what's it like to be upset by something?" I don't have an
answer - in fact I don't understand the question. I had the same
experience a few times during the last therapy group and it's much the
same as what happens if I have to imagine things I don't already have
experience of - the thought process seems to run up against a wall -
as though I *know* how the process should go but am "missing" a part
of it. Like getting half way though preparing your favourite recipe
and discovering you're missing the main ingredient - I am aware of it
and will usually try different approaches to try to work around it but
usually can't. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone else has any
experience of any of that.
Not sure about the point to meditation. If it's just to "shut down"
or "suspend" thinking then I can do that voluntarily (depending on
"state"), failing that self-harm will trigger the "state" to let me do
it, before that no amount of just sitting still will have an effect (I
don't have control over mental processes at that point - even if I do
manage to "wrest control" I won't be able to keep it - it can even get
to the point where I don't actually "remember"/am not aware that
cutting will control it).
I can sometimes override low-level agitation using repetitive tasks,
usually organising or sorting things. The other night I sorted a
large number of coins into value and then laid them out in detailed
(and exact) patterns. Previously I've organised my DVD collection
alphabetically, by genre, box colour and age certificate - these sort
of things provide a means to trigger the "suspending" of concious
thought. Video games (usually on easy or with invincibility cheats
on) or (oddly) programming can work too. Watching TV doesn't (unless
it's a DVD I've seen *many* times before) - it has to be repetitive or
"unconscious".
On Apr 15, 11:20 am, "\"Didyouknow....\""
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Random Bloke
On Apr 19, 2:48 am, sparx104 <sparx...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Finally, I went to see someone at Mind (a mental health charity) the
> other day, she asked the question "what do you feel when something
> upsets you/what's it like to be upset by something?" I don't have an
> answer - in fact I don't understand the question. I had the same
> experience a few times during the last therapy group and it's much the
> same as what happens if I have to imagine things I don't already have
> experience of - the thought process seems to run up against a wall -
> as though I *know* how the process should go but am "missing" a part
> of it. Like getting half way though preparing your favourite recipe
> and discovering you're missing the main ingredient - I am aware of it
> and will usually try different approaches to try to work around it but
> usually can't. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone else has any
> experience of any of that.
a rabbit trapped in the headlights. "How does that make you feel?" How
the hell should I know?
sparx104
time literally not thinking in order to cope. People seem to think
that "nothing" is just trying to avoid the question, do other people
really think of things all the time? I can't cope with that as I have
little control over what I'm thinking and when depressed (ie. almost
all the time) have pretty much no control - as long as I concentrate
hard enough I may be able to stick to thinking about something but
it'll drift eventually.
"How do you feel?" is either "crap" or "neutral" (not-crap) - two
states I know of (although answering this seems to cause problems -
see earlier in this thread...)
It really is "how does that make you feel?" which is the problem. I
guess it's the whole concept of "feeling" which is the issue. I guess
it's like asking a blind person to describe a colour - with no
"concept" of colour it's not possible to describe a subset of that
concept...