Sex

[coldstate49]

Okay, this is a sensitive question, but filling out the online alex
questionnaire brought this topic to mind. The question about sex
being more a matter of function than emotional connection made me
wonder if H's propensity for oral sex over intercourse is related to
alex? Up until a few years ago, our sex life was mutually
orgasmically satisfying, but stayed in the oral or manual manipulation
realm - perhaps having intercourse only once a year...much to my
dissatisfaction. For the first 8 or 9 years of our marriage sex
always culminated with intercourse, and then less and less and then
rarely ever. H knows of my love for intercourse, and simply denied me
that pleasure...for years. H has never had a problem denying me in
many areas related to emotions - I have come to understand WHY through
this forum - THANK YOU! Nearly 2 years ago I gave H an honest
assessment of how his touch felt to me - no feeling attached to it.
He responded by no longer touching me. Nearly 2 years of not only no
sexual contact, but literally no physical contact with my husband who
says he loves me.

All of this (TMI - too much information) to ask if the preference for
oral sex might be related to alex - and if the complete withdrawal
from physical contact with me is also related to alex?

[sparx104]

I'm not exactly the best person to comment, having never had a
girlfriend (let alone sex) so take from this what you will but I'll
give it a go.

Sex (as intercourse) is, presumably, very emotional - after all, it's
said that it's much better with someone you love than someone you
don't - so it must be tied to emotions. Oral sex on the other hand is
(again, presumably) more "mechanical" - although giving pleasure it's
a process which is simply undertaken - you don't make eye contact etc.
so it's something which can be done without the "emotional connection"
you get from looking into your lover's eyes and so on which you would
during intercourse.

Personally (and this may just be me, I don't know) I think that
kissing and cuddling are more "intimate" than sex and long more for
someone to cuddle than someone to have sex with (I have problems with
physical contact). Also, have you asked him why he no longer touches
you? - I know I have great problems with "not doing it right" - if I
think I'm doing something in a way which is not what other people
want, or, is to my mind "incorrect", I will stop doing it.

Perhaps the key is the physical contact issue - try starting small
(holding hands/cuddling/kissing)? And, I know that in my case,
constant reassurance would help - even though I know it's not
something you're supposed to need as a "man" (and probably why I'll
remain single, and lonely, for life).

Good luck anyway.
Chris

[coldstate49]

Hi Chris, thanks for the reply. Your explanation about why you would
stop doing something is H's explanation. My expression of how it felt
translated to him "you are not doing it right" and he stopped. H
isn't one to put the effort into, nor is he capable I believe, of
providing the "feeling" I want from his touch. Our relationship and
that with his children is an emotional wasteland that has taken its
toll. I continue to try to "hang in there" but it is apparent that I
can't keep it up - I am too angry, I want depth in our relationship,
and it won't happen without work. I'm worn out from having been the
one to do the emotional work for years, with no reciprocation from H.
I have to say that knowing what it is has been helpful - for years I
wondered, and now I feel I know, and our kids know, it is not us
causing his behavior. That is a big takeaway for us.

The fact that you continue to keep trying is very meaningful - you
inspire others even when you do not know it. You have much to offer -
- - here on this site, and in the world - - - you're appreciated!
Take care Chris :)

[TSB]

Definitely this is a sensitive one, but I think I’ve made some (albeit
small-ish) personal discoveries on this topic over the last couple of
years so I think I’ll pipe in some $0.02.

First, for background sake – I am in my mid-40’s, have kids and have
been married (or was) for 20+ years. I find it terribly difficult to
remember with any clarity of detail how things truly were at the start
of my marriage from a perspective of “happiness” in general, and
definitely regarding sex in particular. I posted about memory deficit
and Alex some time ago, and both Chris and DiscDEATH had thoughtful
responses. I’ve been meaning to get back to that one as well, but alas
I am not as focused these days as I’d like to be – in all aspects of
life. Even though I feel a complete lack of success with any of the
treatment approaches I’ve tried so far (traditional “talk” therapy,
couples counseling, EMDR, Neurotherapy) it feels like I need to get
back on some horse or another. With some distance now from any
treatment my sense is that any form of therapy is advantageous even if
only for bringing some directed focus and energy towards positive
change rather than simply cruising through as is. It’s just so hard to
start again, and expensive.

DD asked in the memory thread if I am primary or secondary Alex. The
sad reality for me is I actually don’t know for complete sure. I do
know that I was much less this way when I was younger, so my guess has
been secondary. But I find it pretty much impossible to know or
remember if I ever had a fully realized emotional experience in the
way a 100% non-Alex person does. That is to say I don’t know if I
always had some features of Alex even if negligible in effect, with
escalating prevalence over time or if I have acquired this purely
through life experience. I don’t want to be this way, so I like to
think the latter. But I have no sense of any particular life event
that could have sent me down this path, which I think is one of the
reasons why EMDR was both frustrating and non-eventful for me –
nothing specific to focus on to work through.

There are other things in my past that also seem to strengthen the
case for being secondary. I had a huge love of music, books and film
all through my early teens and through adulthood that doesn’t sound
typical for primary Alex people. Though DD, you sound like an
exception with that – and some other ways too. I still enjoy these
now, but I definitely have a diminished capacity for full enjoyment of
them. I also used to have extremely imaginative dreams. In fact, there
are several that I remember to this day as significant life
experiences. I had a period of repeated and very vivid dreams about
flying. They were very much in line with the descriptions of flying in
the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy books, which I believe was
something along the lines of throwing yourself at the ground and
missing. Anyway, I remember those dreams being exhilarating and
actually looking forward to sleep hoping I would have another. In
another dream during my high school days I had quite a mundane (almost
Alex type) dream about sitting in one of my classes and observing the
people and activities around me. The memorable thing about that one
was that about a week or so later I was sitting in that classroom and
the exact same sequence of events from my dream happened in real life.
Even though they were inconsequential events I actually knew what was
going to happen next as it played through. It was disorienting to an
extreme level. Anyone I tried to tell about it didn’t really believe
it, so I stopped telling it and it never happened to me again. For
multiple years now I pretty much never dream.

There has also been some comments here and there about recreational
drugs and Alex; namely that they don’t mix well. In particular I
remember someone coming down very strongly about LSD and how it would
be the ultimate nightmare for an Alex. But I had numerous extremely
positive experiences with that drug in my late teens and 20’s that I
remember at the time describing as emotionally cleansing and
positively therapeutic. I remember (in the fuzzy way that I do) that
it would bring any and every issue to the fore that I may have been
ignoring or squashing, even ones I didn’t know were consciously
bothering me, and it wouldn’t let me be until I had processed them all
in some fashion. I would have to come to some internal resolution, and
then on to the next one until they were all worked through. Then the
rest of the experience moved into the recreational fun part. I
probably took it a couple of dozen times over an 8 to 10 year span and
never had a bad experience. But now I think I’d be in major trouble if
I put my current mind through that. Although I’m interested in a
discussion about Ecstasy at some point.

Coldstate, I have to say first that there have been so many
observations in your posts that have struck major chords of similarity
with me regarding my own marriage history. I have actually had waves
of anxiety reading multiple of your posts. But they have also been
enlightening and helpful for me too, so I really appreciate you
sharing them in such an honest and open way – thank you. I only
discovered Alex about a year or so ago. It was suggested to me by my
therapist at the time and as soon as I read through threads on this
group I knew immediately it fit. A previous counselor had suggested
dysthymia, but I knew that didn’t fit. Before that I knew I wasn’t
right for some time, but had no idea what or why. Now at least I have
some better understanding of what, which is a start. Unlike your H
though, finding out about Alex was cathartic for me. It has given me
perspective enough that I am better able to manage my behaviour with
other people, and I have a better frame of reference for post analysis
of my behaviours that I don’t understand and/or that I fail to control
at the time. I find it very sad for he and you that learning of Alex
hasn’t seemed to help him at all, but my sense is it has helped you.

What finding out about Alex couldn’t do for me was save my marriage.
My emotional drift (for lack of a better expression) from my life and
my wife went unencumbered way too long. Like my Alex in general, the
pattern of detachment became engrained to the point where it became my
reality. I still cared about her deeply – I’ll say love because that’s
what I know to say – but like the love of a sibling. It became
completely non-sexual in feeling. I don’t know what begat what;
whether I was unhappy with that part of the relationship long ago and
I squashed it down because of all the other pressures: kids, families,
money, the sense of failure. And if so maybe that exacerbated my Alex,
that denial of what I knew inside to be true but couldn’t face. In the
end I fell into a long time pattern of self medication. Another
benefit of the turmoil of the last year has been my ability to flip
the switch on what I knew had become a significant alcohol problem.

Sorry, major rambling – back to the topic. Coldstate, there are
several things that strike home with me with what you say about your H
and sex. In tandem with my declining desire for sex with my wife was a
corresponding sense of failure with sex in general. I always tend to
turn these things on myself and I felt like I couldn’t satisfy her
properly, which led to issues even trying at all. When you’re feeling
that way intercourse seems the most daunting form and potentially the
most embarrassing. Oral sex is easier to make work even when you’re
having issues. And in that state I found whenever she did confront me
on the topic it made me feel truly awful inside, and hurt in an almost
angry sort of way. Internalized (as always for me) but felt. To put it
in terms of a previous therapist – sex with her became completely
unsafe for me. But oral sex was much less risky than intercourse for
sure. Eventually I just lost interest in sex almost altogether. I
didn’t exactly blame her, but I didn’t understand the extent of my own
culpability. I know it felt like blame to her, which makes me sad now.
I also lost interest in kissing (which I remember loving for many
years) or any affectionate touching at all. The fear was always that
it might lead to her wanting sex, so I avoided it all. I know she
suspected multiple times I was having an affair, but I just wasn’t
interested.

Then a few years ago I did end up meeting someone. When it happened it
was one of my first really strong and memorable Alex body
disassociation experiences. I had a work related voice mail from
someone wanting to talk to my company about helping them with a
project. From the second I heard that female voice something in my
body triggered. At the time I didn’t even relate it to the voice
message. That was just the point I started feeling weird. It stayed
with me for a couple of days, like I was awake sleepwalking. Then when
I met with the woman who had left the message a day later I felt even
weirder still. I think I sat with her for 10 minutes before the main
meeting and I don’t think I heard a word she said. But it was
completely my body that was out of sorts; in my conscious mind I was
more or less just thinking WTF is going on. I eventually figured it
out – that my body was experiencing an incredible attraction to this
person. That’s how it’s become for me know. My body seems to know
what’s up, but my conscious mind doesn’t so I’m constantly trying to
figure out what my body is experiencing that my consciousness isn’t.
Most of the time I feel it in my stomach, which I can only describe as
something like deranged butterflies, but sometimes it’s closer to an
out of body type experience. Not where I’m outside looking in, but
where I’m inside but with separation between mind and body. That’s the
best I can do for a description at the moment anyway.

I realize now that my physical being (including sub-conscious I
theorize) fell in love at first listen/sight those few years ago. It’s
been a hard few years since then with some major mistakes made on my
part. I wish I’d handled so many things better, but I didn’t
understand what I was doing or why. Finding out about Alex was finally
a positive step forward for me. I now live with the woman I met and my
marriage is over. I know now that if I hadn’t met my new love I would
have continued to drink and withdraw and to cause continued
unhappiness to everyone around me. What I think would have eventually
happened is my wife would have gone the same road you sound like
you’re on right now. Which is to say she would have eventually had to
give up on me to salvage her own ability to be happy, and in my case
anyway she would have been right to do so.

If I am truly honest with myself I know in my heart I couldn’t have
made it work with my wife anymore no matter what I tried. I have come
to recognize that just like there are degrees of Alex, so there are
degrees of feelers. She is a very strong feeler. As my Alex has become
more entrenched over the years, so has the gulf between our emotional
capabilities grown. The gap between us was just too huge for me to be
able to handle it. I know she thinks I gave up on her and didn’t
really try to bridge the gap, but I know in my heart I was not capable
of it and I couldn’t stand the thought of denying her what she needs
and deserves emotionally. For whatever reason the same issues just
don’t exist in my new relationship. I feel incredibly lucky, because I
know this is not the norm. Somehow my Alex is not the same impediment
for us, and I actually feel capable of making her happy in our
relationship. I’ve never felt this way before. It hasn’t helped my
Alex in any way, but it has otherwise given me a new lease on life
including enjoying sex again, in all forms – very much. I love all
forms of contact with her. Love kissing and cuddling and falling
asleep intertwined. I still go through cycles where I get unfocussed
and off track in my overall life, but I never feel smothered with her
– which for me is astonishing. So it is possible.

I apologize for the scattered commentary. The original question was
quite a simple one, but I’m not sure I answered it even still...

[sparx104]

It's said that different chemicals and processes are involved in
"love" over time. At the start it's more physical and about lust -
presumably the urge/impulse fulfilment part of the brain - the
"animal" part. After a while it becomes more about trust, support and
long-term bonding. Since you've both mentioned that your
relationships started well but went downhill perhaps this is related -
maybe it's the change from the earlier stage to the later, more
"emotional connectedness" stage which causes the problem - no emotions
(or at least no processing/understanding of them) is going to cause
trouble when they become the main focus of the relationship.

Regarding the effort involved in trying to keep up the "pretence" of
emotions within the relationship I know that I would do anything to
keep a partner happy (as I pretty much do for anyone). Whether this
is because I'm not in or have not experienced a failing relationship I
don't know - I do know that I will often continue to try to salvage
something when it's obvious it's failed - at least to others (not in
relationships [I've never had one] but in other tasks)

Frankly, knowing that my "normal" emotional processing (or lack of) is
not normal I am trying to figure out what people want or expect
(example: I've recently discovered that telling women I find them
attractive is apparently embarrassing - this was learned by simply
asking some women - I always understood that women liked that, and,
someone saying such a thing to me [not that they ever will] wouldn't
bother me). The problem is, of course, that trying to figure out a
lot of these rules requires that the other person understands that you
are not trying to offend them - it's that you really want to know.

@TSB's comment about feeling "bodily" instead of "cognitively" is
certainly very true in my case. I'm having to learn to figure out
what I "feel" by bodily sensations. I'm having some luck (at least
with being able to figure out when things are starting a bit earlier
than when they "explode") but it's something that doesn't work so well
on subtleties. It also means that relying on, what is essentially, a
flawed and inaccurate method of figuring it out means the conclusion
is often wrong.

Right, this has gone somewhat off-topic, so - a point. Here's the
closest I can get: @coldstate49 - you say you don't believe H is
capable of putting the feeling you want into touching you - have you
told him? You also said he stopped because he thought he was "doing
it wrong". I know I have problems with "doing it wrong" but will
follow any instructions in order to "do it right". Have a go at him!
Shout if need be! I miss all subtle hints - if someone doesn't make
their intentions/happiness/unhappiness etc. obvious to me I will not
figure it out for myself (something which makes me/comes across as
being very insecure - I need to be reassured that something I'm doing/
have done has had an effect on someone - I can't figure it out). If
someone wants something of me just tell me - loudly and forcefully if
needed - I'll get the point and be much happier.

I know that this can be a problem for most people who are a) used to
being subtle and having that picked up on, b) non-confrontational and
c) often portraying intent/desire etc. unconsciously - it does require
a willingness to lose the feelings that you're going to "offend" the
other person. If H is anything like me he will be very happy that you
just tell him straight out (of course, assuming you haven't already
tried this).

Anyway, I'm going to shut up now. It's quite ironic really - I'm
giving relationship advice yet have never had one in the 30 years I've
been around.

PS. A lot of the above goes beyond Alex and into Asperger's Syndrome
with respect to the inability to pick up other's intent and such.

As always - questions welcome.
Chris

PPS. I'm glad someone thinks I have something to offer, if only I
could find someone to offer it to...

> out of body type experience. Not where I’m outside looking ...
>
> read more »

[coldstate49]

TSB,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply - yes, you answered the question.

It is so nice to be able to communicate with people with Alex who are
willing to talk about it. H is completely shut down on the topic - I
think it was Triton who called it Alex Denial. Denial is ever-present
in H. Your perspectives have been so very helpful in my understanding
of Alex.

"What finding out about Alex couldn’t do for me was save my marriage.
My emotional drift (for lack of a better expression) from my life and
my wife went unencumbered way too long. Like my Alex in general, the
pattern of detachment became engrained to the point where it became my

reality." WOW - can I relate to this statement - the pattern has been
set and there is no correcting course in our relationship when H
refuses to even talk about it.

I am curious TSB. What has become of your ex-wife? Do you maintain
communication? I wonder if she has been able to find happiness as you
have? I have no immediate desire for a new relationship - still have
some healing to do over this one, but I envision my future to include
kissing, cuddling and falling asleep intertwined with someone again
someday (and enjoying great sexual intercourse!) I sure do miss all
of that, but I must comment to Chris that it is just too late for any
more attempts on my part. I've done that dance for years - accepted
that it is what it is and got back on the horse - only to be
unsatisfied - I need the fullness and depth of a relationship with
another feeling being, I just can't go back to the emotional emptiness
that is my marriage another time. And that has been difficult for me
to accept - but accept it I must, because my emotional well-being is
important to me.

Thanks for the enlightening discourse on this sensitive topic of
connecting on a fundamental level -

[Maggie Elle]

Well, until recently I would have described my divorce as primarily
due to my former husband's tendency towards addictive behavior and
inability to be emotionally honest; now I'd say it was due to
alexithymia. I am terribly sorry I wasn't familiar with the
description then, and I'm much more sympathetic to what he must have
experienced during our marriage, and can tell that he couldn't do some
of the things I wanted. "Maggie, sometimes when you say something is
obvious, it isn't obvious to me," he said once.

He had limited interest in intercourse, and preferred internet
pornography... which I took extremely personally. I knew there was
something wrong in the bedroom department from the first time we had
sex. He seemed to be reading instructions in his head about what he
should do and touch and in what order, but it didn't seem to give him
much pleasure. Over time I sort of considered him to be having sex at
me instead of with me, and there were times when he would withdraw
from me sexually for weeks to months. He equated sex with scratching
his butt-- it was just something he did when he needed to. Also he
had a difficult time perceiving sexual desire, confusing anxiety with
horniness, which puzzled me and made me angry. He said the same thing
as Chris-- sex was impersonal to him, affection wasn't.

(On a side note, my current boyfriend has "Asperger's" written all
over him, figuratively speaking. But he's not alexithymic. He has no
end of problems with emotional context with others, but he knows what
he feels. It isn't what neurotypicals feel... he needs as much
personal space as a herd of buffalo, to use a quote I read recently...
but he is perfectly happy and comfortable with his own emotions. He's
not flexible about sex, but within his routine, he enjoys it
immensely. No problems there.)

[Chris Dickens]

Your mention of getting the impression of following instructions is
something I've thought (and worried) about before. Assuming I ever
actually manage to have sex I would imagine I'll probably be the same
way. I can only assume it's from the desire to get it 'right' and
such. A similar example: elsewhere on here is a thread about a girl I
went to visit recently (titled 'experience'). Whilst there we kissed
(my first) - now, she kissed me - I would never have kissed her due to
a) being too scared of getting it wrong, b) not knowing what to 'do'
and c) not knowing if it was inappropriate.

Whilst we kissed I did think of the 'rules' and what I should be doing
and when etc. Fortunately, because it was a surprise, and I wasn't
exactly sober, I just went with the flow but you're certainly right
about following a script

Porn, at the end of the day, is sex without emotion and without the
trying to figure out what emotion is correct or should be felt and
there is no empathy involved - you don't need to feel what the other
person is feeling - it's pretty obvious. Also, most porn lacks any
emotion or intimacy. I actually don't like porn due to there being no
intimacy - someone once recommended I try reading erotic fiction for
women written by women

Affection (cuddling, holding hands) etc is much less 'threatening' and
more physical comfort than emotional

Anyway, sorry about rambling on. I suppose a point would be of use,
here goes: the internal script/rules aren't so important after 3
bottles of wine

Chris

PS. All this talk of divorce doesn't give me much hope for the future.
Not that I had much anyway

PPS. Good luck with your current relationship. Alexithymia isn't
always present in AS - it's the ability to understand other's emotions
which appears to be the major issue

__________________________
http://www.sparx104.co.uk

another day
of pure energy,
what wears most
is the constancy

On 30 May 2009, at 23:40, Maggie Elle <refugeefro...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Maggie Elle]

Before you give up hope... I failed to understand my former husband's
point of view as well, and empathy is my strong suit. Not quite as
strong as I used to think then, though. He has a huge amount to offer
to someone who can appreciate love in the way which he demonstrates
it. The end of our marriage was a mistake, but unfortunately we
didn't realize that at the same time. I don't think I can love anyone
else the way I do him, divorce notwithstanding. He is a marvelous
father... not because he always does well, but because he tries, he
cares about being a good dad. I so wish he could see his own value
the way I do, but that kind of self awareness is outside his
abilities.

The world isn't filled with perfectly emotionally balanced and
articulate people. Of the people I know well, I can name a serious
life stumbling block that they each have: this person spends a huge
amount of time and energy trying to control people she cares about,
that person has dyslexia and believes she's stupid though she isn't,
my boyfriend wouldn't know an emotional cue if it fell on his head and
knocked him unconscious, I have ADD and can't manage tasks that you
would find laughably simple. I'm getting sleepy and rambling but
there is a point here somewhere...

Maggie

> __________________________http://www.sparx104.co.uk

>
> another day
> of pure energy,
> what wears most
> is the constancy
>

> On 30 May 2009, at 23:40, Maggie Elle <refugeefromweirdl...@gmail.com>  

[Chris Dickens]

I appreciate your optimism but I really don't have much hope to be
honest

The key seems to be finding someone who understands all this and is
willing to provide the help/support and acceptance. And, to be honest,
I just can't imagine that there really is anyone who would, and is it
really fair to expect someone to?

The girl in the other thread said she thought I would have made a good
boyfriend but then she wasn't emotionally stable at that point - we
only got close because her life fell apart and mine already has. As
she got better I sensed we grew apart until it's led to us walking
away before anything really started.

To be honest, I don't even know why I want someone - I just do, and
knowing I can't is very lonely

Chris

__________________________

http://www.sparx104.co.uk

another day
of pure energy,
what wears most
is the constancy

On 31 May 2009, at 07:45, Maggie Elle <refugeefro...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Affects4me]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
These Alex persons sound like Primary, as they struggle with lack of
emotions as subjective feelings being present, also there is lack of
sensing of physical bodily sexual feelings of pleasure, most likely
from anhedonia, and also, there is performance angst because of this
lack of somatic awareness regarding physical pleasure. Id suggest
that this is even more problematic than just lack of subjective
feelings presence in awareness, as this is a complete lack of pleasure
perceptions. More difficult to sort out, especially if it is based
mostly in the Alex MU morphology, so difficult to access.
A4M
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On May 31, 8:15 am, Chris Dickens <sparx...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I appreciate your optimism but I really don't have much hope to be  
> honest
>
> The key seems to be finding someone who understands all this and is  
> willing to provide the help/support and acceptance. And, to be honest,  
> I just can't imagine that there really is anyone who would, and is it  
> really fair to expect someone to?
>
> The girl in the other thread said she thought I would have made a good  
> boyfriend but then she wasn't emotionally stable at that point - we  
> only got close because her life fell apart and mine already has. As  
> she got better I sensed we grew apart until it's led to us walking  
> away before anything really started.
>
> To be honest, I don't even know why I want someone - I just do, and  
> knowing I can't is very lonely
>
> Chris
>

> __________________________http://www.sparx104.co.uk
>
> another day
> of pure energy,
> what wears most
> is the constancy
>

> On 31 May 2009, at 07:45, Maggie Elle <refugeefromweirdl...@gmail.com>  

> >>> immensely.  No problems there.)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[coldstate49]

"More problematic" to be sure A4M. H's "complete lack of pleasure"
was recognized by me as "no experience of joy" and apparently no
understanding that joyful experience was something to be missed.
Previous posts about Alex MU morphology were too difficult for me to
understand, but I have spent a great deal of time lately reading
several research studies regarding Alex, and I am ready to go back to
those posts and attempt to understand. Some studies I have read
recommend further research on the effects alex has on family dynamics,
yet I have not run across any. I checked the USGOV website to see if
any are in the works, yet did not see any. Does anyone know of any
studies that have been done in this regard? The mother-child
relationship is shown to be causal in many cases. Our children and I
have always had a strong bond, but I have seen with my own eyes that
the father-child relationship with a father with alex has many effects
as well as the children grow into adults.

If H has primary alex (and I agree that he does) and our children were
raised by one with alex and one strong feeler, and had strong
attachment bonding with their mother, what are the odds they will
have, or do have alex at some level (neuro or psycho)?

[Affects4me]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear coldstate,

I think it is mostly based on early trauma for primary alex,although a
genetic basis is possible, as Death Disc has so kindly contributed to
our collective understanding.

Sorry to hear your difficult experiences; suggest any new relationship
discuss this upfront, be sure you have a feeler. Personally, I think
most Alex is from early childhood traumas, usually ones that can be
remembered, unless your limbic unconscious actively represses or
supresses, in order to protect itself. I can remember what it was,
but the feelings are still numbed out, 50 years later, because the
Alex MU morphology is a cellular-level change which is hard to undo,
once it happens. There is a possible way, but it is not clinically
available, so that is all I will say on that. There are also feelers
who later in life experience severe trauma, such as soldiers, then
numb their feelings out for good, much the same as I have described.
This also is a cellular level change in the MU morphology, but it may
also be active repression/suppression, which can have these trauma
storms still reach cognitive perception, then get blocked again, on
and off until there results complete numbing, only the limbic level
trauatic memories stgill are reactive, like a volcano, and erupt, but
without cognitive connectedness so much to it. The sufferer knows he
has rage and anxiety, but does not experience it directly, as it has
been cut off, due to the Alex Mu feelings numbing. So these PTSD
sufferers dont always recognize when they are in a state of rage or
anxiety, etc.

This above differs from the Primary Alex, who has lived with his
feelings numbed out for so long and from such an early age that he
usually often doesnt know what it is like to ever have been a feeler
to begin with. In my case, I did have subjective feelings
experiences, then lost most all of it before end of high school. But
I realized I had lost my experiencing my feelings so have been
studying it ever since. Hence why I know much more about all of this
stuff, and yes, it gets technical, especially describing the biology
and science stuff, but this is part of the gig. I hope you can get
better satisfaction for yourself; sounds like you are over-due.
Regards,
A4M
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[coldstate49]

A4M,
I really appreciate all that you, DD, Triton and others are
documenting on this forum. Lightbulbs continue to brighten as I learn
more of the behavior exhibited with alexithymia; and understand that
alex is what causes H to act in the ways that he does. Earlier today
I read the posts re: anhedonia. What you all had to say about food
rang a bell loud and clear. H's relationship to food is as it is with
me - take it or leave it, same few things he eats (and none of them
are healthy) day after day - while I don't cook meals every night
anymore, rarely eating with us when I do. Eating for H is a
utilitarian thing to do as needed.

I also read the Alex is Pathology posts and agree with Triton that
"Alexs are full of severe pathology affecting both self and others,
and so are feelers full of (a different kind of) pathology which
affects both self and others." I believe I've developed pathologies
over the years as I've struggled with why my husband and I do not have
a connection. And now that I know the why, my pathologies work
against the possibility of truly accepting (living with) H. And yet I
continue to try. I am one that amazes Triton : "It always amazes me
to see intelligent people stuck in the same defensive routines year
after year."

I know I am "overdue" but I also know I took meaningful vows. This is
a tough place for a person to be! I sometimes wonder if my journey is
meant to be a struggle? God's grace is called on everyday and so far
I've gotten the impression that God wants me to stay. The anger has
subsided (thankfully!) and so, too has the incredible sadness and
hopelessness I felt. I am left with an understanding that this is
what it is and as easy as it would be to walk away - it is the hardest
thing for me to do. One day at a time.

A4M, you said in your post "I think it is mostly based on early
trauma for primary alex, although a genetic basis is possible."

What about situational, learned alex? Learning to relate with an
alexithymic father as part of your "normal" daily experience. Could
this daily lived experience block development of pathways in the
brain, allowing alex behavior to be normalized? Just wondering.
Fathers are caregivers too!

AKANN

> ...
>
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[Affects4me]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
quotation:

I also read the Alex is Pathology posts and agree with Triton that
"Alexs are full of severe pathology affecting both self and others,
and so are feelers full of (a different kind of) pathology which
affects both self and others."

I think each individual is a unique, specific, differing and unique
case or set of collective experiences, individual biological and
psychic defenses trying to preserve stability and wholeness. Many
folks are terribly socially impaired, granted. But I think it is very
difficult to generalize to the extent of this quote above. As I say,
even if H doesnt want to discuss any of it, God is not stopping you
from explaining to H that you are not satisfied, if you so choose, and
it is your perfect right. Afterall, the marriage contract vows spell
out the conditions, which includes to love and to consummate, so if
not,you can say so. Maybe only you can do something to try and do
better, but that is your decision.

I dont know if Alex can be a "learned" condition, what would that be?
If yougrew uup in a home where feelings were never shared or
expressed, you could certainly change that and learn to express your
feelings, as long as you have subjective feelings as part of your
awareness which you are actually experiencing even if at a lower level
of volume. This is in contrast with feelings numbed where there are
no feelings reaching your conscious awareness, as these are shut off,
just like when you turn off a water faucet, no water comes out, it is
not there, period. This usually happens from some form of trauma
likely early on, then this person spends eons trying to figure out
what went wrong, yet often never does. Hence mates like you, and
clueless Alexs like H.

Hope that helps.
Regards,
A4M


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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[Maggie Elle]

A few observations:
There's a complex balance between tolerance for your mate's problems,
and taking care of your own best interests. I was not unjustified to
end my marriage. I regret doing it, but my reasons were still valid.
I'm now in a relationship where my mate can be relied upon to tell me
the truth (and my ex's difficulty with honesty is only tangentially
related to alexithymia, I think. He couldn't grasp how much being
lied to impairs the decision making process for most folks; he
doesn't make decisions like they do) and sex is great. But there are
other problems. There's not going to be a relationship in which
potentially breakup-worthy problems don't show up at some point.

On learning alexithymia: I dunno... I was socially and emotionally
impaired for a good 20 years following my mother's death in an
accident when I was a child, which I witnessed (don't remember
though). I was initially attracted to my former husband because we
were so similar-- I thought he would be able to understand me. And in
some ways, he could, though not to the degree that I first believed.
But the damage from my mother's death slowly wore off, and my basic
personality showed back up again. That isn't happening for my former
husband-- I know his parents, neither of them is alexithymic, he
didn't have a traumatic childhood. But he does have a longer family
history of depression and suicide. To me, he seems hardwired.

--Maggie

> ...
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[coldstate49]

A4M.
I truly enjoy engaging dialogue, and it is always a pleasure to hear
your thoughts. Thank you for responding!

re: "Alexs are full of severe pathology affecting both self and

others, and so are feelers full of (a different kind of) pathology
which affects both self and others."

Perhaps the word "severe" taken out of the sentence would make it a
truer statement. We affect one another - that much is true. H's way
of being has severely affected me, and I see where my responses, meant
to draw out, have instead caused withdrawal.

My turmoil involves the choice before me, as you said, "Maybe only you
can do something to try and do better, but that is your decision." A
true moral dilemma for me and I sit upon the fence unsure, yet
knowing.

AKANN

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[coldstate49]

I agree with you Maggie, that "there's not going to be a relationship

in which
potentially breakup-worthy problems don't show up at some point."

Requirement for not breaking up: Communication and willingness to
accept some things and work on other things - determined through open
dialogue. When you don't have this, you are forced to make a
decision. Even when it is a good-for-you decision you regret having
to take that action; it is not what you wanted. I completely
understand.

AKANN

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[sparx104]

I would imagine, in your case, you were suffering from some level of
PTSD (of which alexithymia can be considered a symptom).

I would imagine most "learned" incidences of alexithymic behaviour
could be traced back to some traumatic event which would have resulted
in some level of PTSD. After all, repression of the events which
caused the stress would require repression of the emotions involved at
the time - perhaps that repression just becomes the "normal" state -
it's better not to feel if feeling is going to be stressful/painful.
Maybe after time you can "learn to feel again" - as it's just
relearning something you already know, those who are hardwired/
alexithymic from birth would have a harder time as they are having to
learn from first principles.

Not an easy task (well, I'm certainly not finding it to be anyway)

> ...
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[coldstate49]

I just read a study published in 1995 of family factors related to
alex characteristics. The findings suggest that "emotional,
behavioral, and problem-solving dysfunctions in the family (may)
interfere with the primary development of introspection, affect
awareness, and imagination in childhood. Thus, children develop
specific alexithymia characteristics as a result of parental
dysfunction in emotional or cognitive domains.....alexithymia in young
adults might be an adult defense to cope with family conflict or
disorder rather than a primary deficit stemming from early
experiences."

This describes my concern about "learned" alex. True, as Maggie
stated, it eventually "wore off" because, as A4M said "you can learn
to express your feelings" if you are aware of your feelings.

Working my way off the fence,
AKANN

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[Affects4me]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear coldstate,
Two thoughtd Ill mention quickly:
(excuse any punniness) ;>)
just seems to me think about sitting on that fence, I meann, lots of
time that can get to really hurting eventually, atleast downright
uncomfortable (just think about where top of the fence ends
up!)! ;>) and then

second thought would be, if you come down off that fence, you may have
to change your user name to "warm state," or maybe even warmer still!
as in "hot"
Regards,
A4M
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[Affects4me]

PS this would be if you were to find a satifying relationship with a
feeler which provided the love and empathy you are seeking, then I
think you would truely warm up within your feelings, and your inner
feelings experiences could maybe become truely quite warm, intense,
passionate about life.

On Jun 11, 8:18 pm, Affects4me <philmcdonald_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Dear coldstate,
> Two thoughtd Ill mention quickly:
> (excuse any punniness)     ;>)
> just seems to me think about sitting on that fence, I meann, lots of
> time that can get to really hurting eventually, atleast downright
> uncomfortable (just think about where top of the fence ends
> up!)!  ;>)  and then
>
> second thought would be, if you come down off that fence, you may have
> to change your user name to "warm state," or maybe even warmer still!

> as in "hot" if you find a satisfying relationship with a feeler.

[coldstate49]

A4M,
True that fence sitting is painful - I'm feeling it my friend!

What a nice sentiment - the visual of me=happy again made me smile
REAL big :)

Your words inspire - thank you for taking the time to write them!

You know, my user name refers to the 49th state in the U.S. - Alaska.
Funny how that also works for my state of being! I shared part of a
thread with my brother last year, and he pointed out that my signoff
"AKANN" could be read as achin' (as in aching). Hmmmm....... I'm
ready for the change to "hotstate" and "HAPPYANN"! Thanks for the
encouragement A4M.

AKANN

> ...
>
> read more »

[Maggie Elle]

Funny, my ex once suggested that I had PTSD-- I'd never thought of it
until then.

On learning new principles: in his own cognitive and deliberate way,
my ex is able to change himself. It takes him a long time to
understand why specific actions aren't/are a good idea, but once he
does he has more self discipline, or doesn't get so tangled up in his
emotions, as the rest of us... he just switches his behavior.

Open question to alex folks, here... what is it like when you drink?
It seemed to do something for my former husband that it didn't do for
me-- liberated his emotional functioning in some way. He frequently
justified his intake by saying that he couldn't have fun without being
drunk. Now, 6 years later, I see that he meant exactly that, it
wasn't just a lame rationalization.

--Maggie

> ...
>
> read more »

["Didyouknow...."]

For me there's two me's, an introvert and an extrovert, the introvert
is a self absorbed twat, but the extrovert is a lot of fun. drinking
makes all this more so, but drinking can have a tendency to bring out
the extrovert. My Alex seems to be Type two, I have emotion's but they
are under lock and key. Drinking allows some of the locks to be
opened.
Extroverted I am always a happy drunk, Introverted I just want to
sleep.
Hope that sheds some light.

[Chris Dickens]

With regards to learning new principles:

I "work" in pretty much the same way. An example: taking the old "do I
look good in this?" question - under normal circumstances I will
answer truthfully (as with all questions). However, I have learned
that the truth is often not wanted so therefore can override my
default behaviour to say yes even if I don't think the person does
look good in it

I find it difficult to do it and have to be aware that I need to -if
not concentrating then I will usually just answer truthfully

I have to formulate these "rules" in almost all circumstances where I
must deal with people - things such as "people do not always tell the
truth", "just because you want to talk about something doesn't mean
others do", "other people *do not* know everything you do" (that's a
fairly new one)

__________________________

http://www.sparx104.co.uk

another day
of pure energy,
what wears most
is the constancy

On 18 Jun 2009, at 04:21, Maggie Elle <refugeefro...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[sparx104]

..since I don't appear to be able to edit that, I'll add the rest as a
reply (don't use an iPhone to email - it's far too easy to hit "Send"
when you don't mean to :( )

Learning these "rules" can be fairly easy if the rule relates to a
concrete instance - eg. unless someone looks really awful in something
they've tried on they really don't want your opinion etc. or very hard
- situations such as relationships where a) asking certain questions
is likely to make things worse and b) the situation is generally fluid
and not likely to be "rule-driven".

Also, learning the "rules" can be difficult as often the aim is to
actually "help" (wrong word but I can think of the right one) others -
there is little to no "personal" benefit. Positive reinforcement is
usually used to learn new things - people (or animals) learn that
doing certain things will make them happy (directly or indirectly).
When you don't particularly recognise being "happy" or whatever you're
having to do is actually against what you would normally do or want to
- positive reinforcement breaks down - you are having to change your
own behaviour, and make more work for yourself, for very little actual
benefit.

Obviously, there are ways you can link things up to make it worth
while/see a point - I would never actively want to upset anyone so a
lot of the rules are tied into. Another problem with making such
"rules" is that trying to figure out what others (or even yourself)
are actually feeling or how people are reacting can be difficult so
the wrong rules can be created and acted on - this can appear
malicious (after all, the action *is* planned - it's just that what I
see as "the correct plan" is not correct).

Since the "rules" require a concious effort to actually be used the
whole system can break down under extreme stress/tiredness and any
other situation where the effort required becomes either too much or
is lost - eg. when drinking.

And finally, a further problem with such rules are that they tend to
be rigid and often pretty simple (the simpler they are the easier they
are to keep in mind at all times) - situations which require fluidity
- social situations, relationships etc. cause problems as all of a
sudden such rules are no longer effective or valid and, in fact, may
suddenly become opposite to what would be "normal" behaviour (back to
relationships: the rule "don't get too physically close to people -
they don't like it" suddenly goes from being normal in public to being
cold and unresponsive in a relationship with little ability to
actually ask your partner - "do you want me to be physically close to
you?", and, be honest, what would you think [as a feeler] if someone
was to ask you that?)

Ps. sorry for some of the odd terms - they come from computer
programming - the ultimate rule based exercise.

On Jun 19, 10:28 am, Chris Dickens <sparx...@gmail.com> wrote:
> With regards to learning new principles:
>
> I "work" in pretty much the same way. An example: taking the old "do I  
> look good in this?" question - under normal circumstances I will  
> answer truthfully (as with all questions). However, I have learned  
> that the truth is often not wanted so therefore can override my  
> default behaviour to say yes even if I don't think the person does  
> look good in it
>
> I find it difficult to do it and have to be aware that I need to -if  
> not concentrating then I will usually just answer truthfully
>
> I have to formulate these "rules" in almost all circumstances where I  
> must deal with people - things such as "people do not always tell the  
> truth", "just because you want to talk about something doesn't mean  
> others do", "other people *do not* know everything you do" (that's a  
> fairly new one)
>

> __________________________http://www.sparx104.co.uk

>
> another day
> of pure energy,
> what wears most
> is the constancy
>

> On 18 Jun 2009, at 04:21, Maggie Elle <refugeefromweirdl...@gmail.com>  

[kurokawa8]

Drinking is very bad for me. i have the type of alexithymia where the
physiological reactions of my emotions reverberate through me,
unpurged. I'm not sure how to put it in words but here's what the
experience is like:

hot head, hyper-mobilized, loud, frenetic, blurt out faster than i can
even breathe, cartoon histrionics, grandiose experiments in
emotionality, grandiose attempts in emotionality, spinning
frustration, spastic self-immolation, relentless, quick quick quick
jokes, touching touching touching but never settling, evoking huge
emotions from others, getting deep in other people's emotional selves;
almost a kind of violation, terror/shame/fractured self-esteem when
looking in the eyes of another and being unable to process, self-
loathing hidden by noise, wild focus, bold and outrageous behavior
while daringly knowing I'm extremely hypersensitive and vulnerable,
playing huge reckless bluffs.

In other words, it just makes the turbulence i already have increase,
but it still doesn't process, as far as i can tell.

On Jun 18, 3:00 am, "\"Didyouknow....\""