V2G vs V2H

[world2...@gmail.com]

I don't know how relevant it will be to individual EV owners but there is a study underway to determine whether V2G makes sense (i.e. money) in the 'real' world:

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/03/17/ev-connect-pilots-large-us-v2g-project/

I didn't see anything in the announcement about vehicles smaller than school buses but if 'a battery is a battery' it might provide some interesting numbers. The biggest conceptual flaw of the study I can see is that keeping the lights on will be worth a LOT more in a California or Texas-style grid outage than what utilities are willing to pay for storing power. 
 

Just like solar, electrical utilities love storage - as long as they own it.  And since they make the laws that govern the 'real' world, they are not likely to jump on board with V2G any time soon.  With V2H, homeowners are not likely to care about battery wear as long as their EV batteries are only tapped in emergencies.  This, needless to say, has implications for V2H gateway/wallbox designs.

(Speaking of which here is a response I received from WallBox about their bi-directional Quasar charger:

"Thank you for reaching out to Wallbox and for your interest in Quasar. We are excited by the industry interest in Quasar and in the future of bidirectional charging for homes.

 

While we have begun sales and shipment of Quasar in select regional markets outside the United States, we are continuing to iterate and evolve the development of Quasar for the North American market to ensure that it meets the needs and expectations of customers across this region and that Quasar is fully compatible with EVs sold in North America. We are currently expecting Quasar North America to go into production in late 2022.

 

As our engineers continue to develop Quasar for North America, we are working with North American utilities, auto manufacturers and other partners to test and validate Quasar and our bidirectional charging technology to ensure compatibility with regional electrical standards and with EV makes and models sold in North America. Indeed part of the future success of Quasar and bidirectional charging depends on more EVs being bidirectional-capable. When Quasar does arrive in the region, it will be an even better and more capable product than it is today.

You will be kept up to date with news/updates regarding the Wallbox Quasar. "

I also didn't see anything about studying Tesla's million and two-million-mile batteries

[ROBERT]

According to a study I googled, 80% of EV users charge at home.  This means V2H would be of interest to these users as an emergency backup.  This morning I listened to a web seminar by Sol-Ark.  In the Q&A session, someone ask about V2G.  Their engineer said they were starting to look at the concept.  Since they have an AC coupling feature, I think V2H should be an easy addition.

 

---

From: evtu...@googlegroups.com <evtu...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of world2...@gmail.com <world2...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 7, 2021 10:24 AM
To: EV Tucson <evtu...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [EV Tucson] V2G vs V2H

 

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[world2...@gmail.com]

What is the AC coupling feature?  Could I run wiring from it to my in-house circuit breaker panel and access the house's branch circuits with minimal re-wiring and cost?  To use a bi-directional EV battery, I would still need a transfer switch, right? 

I would be willing to shell out $8k for a Sol-Ark inverter if it could handle my 9KW DC production system.  But I suspect most people would not be willing to even think about replacing working inverters.  This survey - https://cleantechnica.com/2019/12/25/ev-ownership-rooftop-solar-ownership-new-report-charts/ - suggests as many as 48% of EV owners have or will soon get solar. 

[Josh L]

guys -

the one drawback of v2g that always made sense to me is, I
think, worth mentioning. It is the question of wear-and-tear on
the vehicle battery. It does seem possible that at some point
this concern could be mooted by batteries and sytems that
somehow reduce or eliminate any concerns in this area. Until
that happens though, personally I would have some reservations
about participating in a V2G or in some V2H programs (pending
more information), as a higher priority for me would be to
follow practices likely (I guess we're told) to preserve the
life of the vehicle battery. Still, I would be ok with a V1G
demand-response one-way sort of program, as I'm guessing that
would be less wear and tear on the battery than something
bi-directional. And indeed, I may be overstating the
battery-wear-and-tear concerns, or maybe they are relevant but
as battery technology evolves they could become less so in the
future.

And yes, I do support making at least some bidirectionality
possible for rare emergencies (recent dangerous Texas blackouts
for example), though I'm not sure if the best way to handle that
is conventional V2G.

On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 11:19:12 -0700 (PDT), "world2...@gmail.com"
<world2...@gmail.com> you wrote:

>What is the AC coupling feature? Could I run wiring from it to my in-house
>circuit breaker panel and access the house's branch circuits with minimal
>re-wiring and cost? To use a bi-directional EV battery, I would still need
>a transfer switch, right?
>
>I would be willing to shell out $8k for a Sol-Ark inverter if it could
>handle my 9KW DC production system. But I suspect most people would not be
>willing to even think about replacing working inverters. This survey -
>https://cleantechnica.com/2019/12/25/ev-ownership-rooftop-solar-ownership-new-report-charts/
>- suggests as many as 48% of EV owners have or will soon get solar.
>
>On Wednesday, April 7, 2021 at 10:48:39 AM UTC-7 bhensley01 wrote:
>
>> According to a study I googled, 80% of EV users charge at home. This
>> means V2H would be of interest to these users as an emergency backup. This
>> morning I listened to a web seminar by Sol-Ark. In the Q&A session,
>> someone ask about V2G. Their engineer said they were starting to look at
>> the concept. Since they have an AC coupling feature, I think V2H should be
>> an easy addition.
>>
>>

>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* evtu...@googlegroups.com <evtu...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of
>> world2...@gmail.com <world2...@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 7, 2021 10:24 AM
>> *To:* EV Tucson <evtu...@googlegroups.com>
>> *Subject:* [EV Tucson] V2G vs V2H

>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/evtucson/e130a638-7597-46b8-acdc-b29208d96408n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>

[Steven Lesh]

If I haven't already posted this, please forgive me:  https://cleantechnica.com/2021/03/17/ev-connect-pilots-large-us-v2g-project/  I'm not sure it is relevant to POVs though if a battery is a battery it might be.  And as I understand it many more charging cycles are what (two) million mile batteries are all about.  One way or the other there is going to be wear and if the utilities want to use my battery they are going to have to pay for it.  But even without V2G utility customers could benefit from V2H.  I was about to fork over $20k for 26 KW of PowerWalls that in all likelihood will never be used.  Don't know what it will cost yet but I believe Ioniq 5 or ID4 will be offering 71 KW batteries most likely for far less. 

With V2H if you never use your EV battery wear and tear is not a problem.  And if you do - as in a Texas or California situation - the cost is most likely one of the last things you will be worrying about.

This may not be the solution to the 'duck curve' but it looks like it would lessen the impact of electrifying cars:

"Temme noted that 6,500 GWh a year of renewable energy is not used due to lack of energy storage. Grid operators could store that electricity in car batteries if they have the technical and regulatory ability to do so.

If you simply pumped that electricity into fully electric cars, 2.7 million cars could drive for a year on that electricity, Volkswagen indicates." - https://cleantechnica.com/2021/03/20/how-much-does-volkswagens-bi-directional-charging-innovation-matter/

P.S.  Chapman VW has an ID4 they keep around as a demo.  It looked pretty nice to me.

--

Steven

[Josh L]

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 11:35:01 -0700, Steven Lesh
<world2...@gmail.com> you wrote:
[...]

>With V2H if you never use your EV battery wear and tear is not a problem.
>And if you do - as in a Texas or California situation - the cost is most
>likely one of the last things you will be worrying about.

Enabling one's EV and charge station for a once-in-awhile
emergency V2H use does seem like a good idea, and avoids the
constant-wear-and-tear concern as long as the once-in-awhile use
is verified to be well-thought-out and won't pull the energy in
a way that harms the battery.

I'm guessing most or all EVs could already power a low-voltage
circuit in an emergency using just a simple store-bought
inverter that plus in to the cigarette lighter type 12V DC
outlet, or into a 120 V outlet if the car is equipped with them
(though I"ve lost track if any do come with them). Maybe some
of them will just come equipped with a higher voltage plug for
emergencies, and then this would reduce the focus on charge
stations equipped to handle a rare V2H type of event. (On this
last point, I really don't know the technical aspects of what
I'm talking about, so if someone wants to set things right, if
I'm making a mistake, I'd appreciate it).


Personally, I'd also like to try being on some sort of V1G
program: I.e.: I agree that (to some extent) my charging can be
constrolled by the grid operator so that I am only drawing
energy when it is needed less. This might give me some slight
income. It would depend on details though. If they want to
turn it on and off a few times per night, ok, but if it's dozens
of times (which I doubt, but just saying) then no.

There may be some wonderful good things I"m not understanding
about full-blown V2G, but so far I am skeptical of whether I
would want to be on it.

>This may not be the solution to the 'duck curve' but it looks like it would
>lessen the impact of electrifying cars:
>
>"Temme noted that 6,500 GWh a year of renewable energy is not used due to
>lack of energy storage. Grid operators could store that electricity in car
>batteries if they have the technical and regulatory ability to do so.
>

>If you simply pumped that electricity into fully electric cars, *2.7
>million cars* could drive for *a year* on that electricity, Volkswagen

>indicates." -
>https://cleantechnica.com/2021/03/20/how-much-does-volkswagens-bi-directional-charging-innovation-matter/
>
>P.S. Chapman VW has an ID4 they keep around as a demo. It looked pretty
>nice to me.

I'm looking forward to local reports as to how that ID4 works
out.

[Benjamin Nead]

Hi Josh . . .

I've been following the latest topic threads here regarding V2X (V2G, V2H, V2L, etc.) with great interest, as it's been something I've been thinking about for quite a while, along with other things, like portable solar that I can carry and quickly deploy. To clarify about getting 120VAC through the car's cigarette lighter receptacle, you can do this with a reasonable degree of safety with a small inverter operating in the 120W to 150W range, which is useful for plugging in the transformer charger that comes with your laptop computer. Samlex makes a nice one in this smaller size class that's pure sine wave (a feature needed for the smooth operation of computers and other modern electronics) . . .

https://www.amazon.com/Samlex-PST-120-12-Pure-Inverter-Watts/dp/B00IXOWPQM/

Limitations are with the current draw (amperage) available from the 12V battery, but probably more crucially, the physical design of the receptacle on the dashboard itself. These pop-out cigarette lighters first started appearing in cars in the 1930s - back when most vehicles still had 6V electrical systems - and have persisted past the time when most people stopped smoking while driving. There actually isn't even a precise industry standard as to the size of the hole for these things. It varies slightly from manufacturer to manufacturer. So, the lighter plug attachment that comes with your inverter or other 12V gadget might be too loose for the receptacle in one brand of car, or too tight in another. The imprecise physical tolerance of this interface is bad news for continuous reliable electrical transfer. At its worst, it can be a potential fire hazard.

Far better to patch an inverter directly to the 12V battery under the hood. Those big alligator clips you find on jumper cables are also not perfect. But they can pass more current than the dash lighter interface for loads above 120W. We're still limited by the size of that starter battery, though. Be careful here. You'll be able to use your new 300W electric thermos (I just got one of these and absolutely love it. I'm going to pair it with a portable solar/battery/inverter system for my Espresso-on-the-go habit,) but draining the car's starter battery rather quickly is a real possibility . . .

https://www.amazon.com/Lyty-Insulated-Travel-Electric-Kettle/dp/B07Z2TGPQD

The difference between the 12V starter battery on our EVs and ones in a gasoline car is really only what's keeping them charged. In an EV, it's charging from the big traction battery. The bottleneck to tapping all that power is now truly on the 12V starter battery itself and how much current you can pass through it.

The ideal solution to getting all that electricity - or at least some of it - out of the traction battery for high wattage and more demanding electrical loads (like if I wanted to operate hand-held AC power tools or a kitchen blender, or a microwave oven) is the most direct connection to that big battery: the DC charging port.

Here's a video from Will Prowse, who has a lot of good off-grid power, battery and solar advice available on his YouTube channel and on his do-it-yourself solar forum. This one takes a deep dive into inverters . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rxSapfp4Hs

The focus here is more geared to inverters for portable systems running multiple devices simultaneously inside an RV, but good stuff to soak in.

Ben

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