v3pre2 discussion

[StarInfidel]

Post feedback here about v3pre2 version. Especially the hard
difficulty setting.

[StarInfidel]

Minor addition - when one of the AI cults starts the final ritual, the
others will try to make peace between themselves.

[PossibleCrit]

The Investigator never seemed to cause me much trouble. In fact, they
caused more difficulties for the AI Enemies, reducing them and making
their nodes ripe for my picking, without going to war.
I'm not sure what is 'harder' on the hard setting- it did not seem
more difficult- there seemed to be more nodes that took 2 to capture,
but that doesn't make the game harder, since we are competing with an
AI. It might make it easier to win, just slower.
I do appreciate that (so far) it is a totally level playing field (or
so it would seem) and that you haven't given the AI some cheating
resource advantage as is so common.

Ideas: Perhaps the number of nodes nearby would affect the percentage
for success. That is, perhaps for every node that would be connected
to the target node that is in my possession, you would get a +1/2/3%
for neo/adept/priest. Something like that (perhaps stronger) in
defense would be nice as well. When attacking an enemy, I want
(mentally, at least) to pick off the outliers, and I worry about my
own 'long strings' with nodes hung way out to dry. It doesn't seem
like this matters. A node with 5 allied nodes connected should be
harder to convert. You use this idea for the generators, but not for
the individual. Actually, if any node with 4 connections was
untouchable, it could become more interesting - you would want to
build more strategic structures.

Also: Perhaps the 'investigators' are not keyed to a particular cult,
they just hunt cultists/corruption in general. That might make it
interesting- if I commit resources to remove the investigator, I am
helping my enemies in some small way. Perhaps if the investigators
work on a node, and always jump to another nearby node, so they are a
threat to the cults nearby.
Even, start the investigators on the randomly seeded start nodes, and
until that 'node' is taken over, they are dormant. So waking up
investigators is the price for rapid expansion.
What if there was an I, B, and P Investigator that starts on those
nodes and can follow trails similar nodes (if there is one) or jump to
the nearest if there isn't a 'trail'.

Sorry - that was a lot!

[Max Kowarski]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 9:21 PM, PossibleCrit <pit...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Investigator never seemed to cause me much trouble. In fact, they
> caused more difficulties for the AI Enemies, reducing them and making
> their nodes ripe for my picking, without going to war.
> I'm not sure what is 'harder' on the hard setting- it did not seem
> more difficult- there seemed to be more nodes that took 2 to capture,
> but that doesn't make the game harder, since we are competing with an
> AI. It might make it easier to win, just slower.
> I do appreciate that (so far) it is a totally level playing field (or
> so it would seem) and that you haven't given the AI some cheating
> resource advantage as is so common.

Strange, all the probabilities are more strongly affected by awareness
on hard. Not only that, but player's cult starts with no generator
nodes around in the radius of two. Also the investigator gets a three
turns to raise his will and wreak havoc until he is found. Not only
that, but AI plays on easy when player plays on hard, so I wonder how
do you manage to do so well. How many games out of ten do you win on
hard?

> Ideas: Perhaps the number of nodes nearby would affect the percentage
> for success. That is, perhaps for every node that would be connected
> to the target node that is in my possession, you would get a +1/2/3%
> for neo/adept/priest. Something like that (perhaps stronger) in
> defense would be nice as well. When attacking an enemy, I want
> (mentally, at least) to pick off the outliers, and I worry about my
> own 'long strings' with nodes hung way out to dry. It doesn't seem
> like this matters. A node with 5 allied nodes connected should be
> harder to convert. You use this idea for the generators, but not for
> the individual. Actually, if any node with 4 connections was
> untouchable, it could become more interesting - you would want to
> build more strategic structures.

An interesting idea. I vaguely recall not implementing the "any node
with X connections is untouchable" for two reasons. First one is once
you do that, the current algorithm for auto-selecting which node to
upgrade (origin -> random generator -> random node) becomes outdated.
You'd want to keep your priests and adepts well away from borders so
you either need to select who to upgrade by hand or modify the
algorithm to select the nodes close to your origin (which is simple,
yes). Of course the modified AI will do exactly that and that leads us
to the second problem - the gameplay pacing changes to a much slower
one. You need a hell of a lot more time/resources instead of luck to
breach defences to the center which you won't have if the opponent
starts the final ritual.

As a counter-idea, we could try to do that for priests - if the priest
node has 4 links, it is hardened.

> Also: Perhaps the 'investigators' are not keyed to a particular cult,
> they just hunt cultists/corruption in general. That might make it
> interesting- if I commit resources to remove the investigator, I am
> helping my enemies in some small way. Perhaps if the investigators
> work on a node, and always jump to another nearby node, so they are a
> threat to the cults nearby.
> Even, start the investigators on the randomly seeded start nodes, and
> until that 'node' is taken over, they are dormant. So waking up
> investigators is the price for rapid expansion.
> What if there was an I, B, and P Investigator that starts on those
> nodes and can follow trails similar nodes (if there is one) or jump to
> the nearest if there isn't a 'trail'.

These were the initial ideas for implementation. If I remember
correctly I decided against these ideas because I wanted investigators
to be more precise and troublesome (and simpler to code) - if they are
standing somewhere and wondering who to strike next, that leads to the
a whole lot of problems of how to make them more of a threat instead
of gimmick.

> Sorry - that was a lot!

No problem.

[PossibleCrit]

Very nicely answered!

Actually, I hit the wall as you guessed I would. I must have just been
lucky the first 3 times.
I then did lose (my first game ever, out of 20 or so previous), and
then lost again, fairly often. I guess I am, say, 5/10 on Hard.
Maybe a collected high score? Turns, Neophytes, method, difficulty?
Then again, maybe you already collect this, but don't display it.
Investigators trashed me, and other cults completed the summoning. In
all cases on losses, I couldn't say it was because of my playing (I
couldn't see an error point) but rather a crippling start.

Minor Annoyances
It would be nice to have nodes that are 'lost' by a Cult (including
enemies) with a light circle/pentagram of their color on the next
turn, or some other indicator. I sometimes cannot see what I lost
(especially when an enemy cult picks off one little node).
The buttons for using your Adepts are very small for no reason. There
is no counter on how many 'Adepts' you have used out of your pool.


Awareness
I tend to play conservatively until I get my first Adept, and ever
after that keep my Awareness at 0, if possible. There seems very
little compelling reason not to keep it there.
Adepts lowering of awareness is the only 'guarantee' right now. You
could randomize it.
If societies' awareness brought something (applicants who want to
join!) along with the bad, then it would be a consideration.
War between Cults should affect Awareness strongly, so there is a
reason to have peace. (And how do you declare peace? The other Cults
will display a peace message sometimes)


I actually think Awareness shouldn't affect the final Summoning. Who
cares if the world knows- they are too late! (As long as you
succeed!).
Rather, I would have the chance be based on the number of Priests, and
start small (say, 33%) and with each failure, gain a bigger chance, so
by the fifth try, you are getting to 80%, as you learn as a cult how
to successfully complete it.
[If each 'cult' had a different gain from Awareness, just a tiny bit
of flavor, it could be interesting. I.E. Elder God has a small chance
of getting Virgins to apply, Manipulators getting a bonus point of
Persuasion, and so on.]
Sometimes, though, you have no options. Is the Investigator is there
to speed things up and stop slow, patient accretion?

Investigators
If the Investigator gets you early, you are crippled, with no way to
fight back.
Perhaps you should tie the inception of the Investigator (and success)
to the sacrifice of Virgins. (Bodies turn up, and so on, that start/
fuel the investigation).
Until the Cult actually sacrifices someone, well, we're just weirdoes
and not exactly evil.
This way, you can always have a chance at getting an adept.
Investigators become a mid-game problem.

Lines and Power
Add something like this : If there isn't a Priest or the Origin as
part of a line of effect, you cannot take over a node. This way, if
the Investigator (or an enemy Cult) cuts your line of supply, the
orphaned/end points cannot be expanded from, until they are
reconnected. Or, maybe they don't deliver resources? This would make
extra connections between points valuable, and allow you to cripple a
Cult by severing the lines to the bulk of their generators if they
were so foolish as to overextend themselves.


Long again! But I am playing a lot.
M

[Max Kowarski]

On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 7:12 PM, PossibleCrit <pit...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Very nicely answered!

Thanks :)

> Actually, I hit the wall as you guessed I would. I must have just been
> lucky the first 3 times.
> I then did lose (my first game ever, out of 20 or so previous), and
> then lost again, fairly often. I guess I am, say, 5/10 on Hard.
> Maybe a collected high score? Turns, Neophytes, method, difficulty?
> Then again, maybe you already collect this, but don't display it.
> Investigators trashed me, and other cults completed the summoning. In
> all cases on losses, I couldn't say it was because of my playing (I
> couldn't see an error point) but rather a crippling start.

Yes, the other reports (and my experience ) indicate that removing
generators in radius 2 is too much. I'll fix that to radius 1 today
and see how playable that will be. Also it's probable that you've
played Hard on older v3pre2 version when it wasn't that hard - it was
fixed 2 days ago or so.

> Minor Annoyances
> It would be nice to have nodes that are 'lost' by a Cult (including
> enemies) with a light circle/pentagram of their color on the next
> turn, or some other indicator. I sometimes cannot see what I lost
> (especially when an enemy cult picks off one little node).

That's a good idea! I'll do that today.

> The buttons for using your Adepts are very small for no reason. There
> is no counter on how many 'Adepts' you have used out of your pool.

The A and W buttons are the same size as convert buttons - what do you mean?
Having a counter of used adepts is good, too.

> Awareness
> I tend to play conservatively until I get my first Adept, and ever
> after that keep my Awareness at 0, if possible. There seems very
> little compelling reason not to keep it there.
> Adepts lowering of awareness is the only 'guarantee' right now. You
> could randomize it.

No, randomizing is needed when you want to make the result potentially
harder. It's already balanced enough by the fact that an adept can
only do one action per turn.

> If societies' awareness brought something (applicants who want to
> join!) along with the bad, then it would be a consideration.

Um, how would that happen in the gameplay?

> War between Cults should affect Awareness strongly, so there is a
> reason to have peace. (And how do you declare peace? The other Cults
> will display a peace message sometimes)

That's a recent addition - cults will try to make peace when someone
start the final ritual - sort of to concetrate on the task of stopping
that.
Though cult diplomacy is a potential area for expansion in later versions :)

> I actually think Awareness shouldn't affect the final Summoning. Who
> cares if the world knows- they are too late! (As long as you
> succeed!).
> Rather, I would have the chance be based on the number of Priests, and
> start small (say, 33%) and with each failure, gain a bigger chance, so
> by the fifth try, you are getting to 80%, as you learn as a cult how
> to successfully complete it.

Well, awareness is not a passive number, it's an measure of the
humanity's active involvement. Basically when it's 80% for example,
you can't really concentrate on anything because humanity is against
you and is actively searching/making your life difficult.

Though the idea of improving the final ritual chance on each
consecutive try is interesting. I remember having to cast a ritual 3
or 4 times before succeeding before but I don't recall having that
problem now.

> [If each 'cult' had a different gain from Awareness, just a tiny bit
> of flavor, it could be interesting. I.E. Elder God has a small chance
> of getting Virgins to apply, Manipulators getting a bonus point of
> Persuasion, and so on.]

*sigh* Unique cult abilities is another big area to expand in the
future versions :) Though I shy away from that for now.

> Sometimes, though, you have no options. Is the Investigator is there
> to speed things up and stop slow, patient accretion?

More on that below.

> Investigators
> If the Investigator gets you early, you are crippled, with no way to
> fight back.
> Perhaps you should tie the inception of the Investigator (and success)
> to the sacrifice of Virgins. (Bodies turn up, and so on, that start/
> fuel the investigation).
> Until the Cult actually sacrifices someone, well, we're just weirdoes
> and not exactly evil.
> This way, you can always have a chance at getting an adept.
> Investigators become a mid-game problem.

I think you don't get it right about the investigators. Even if you
have one active, keep the awareness below 5% each turn and
investigator will not raise his willpower and has only a 25% chance of
revealing your followers. Also if you have only one adept in your
cult, investigator will not appear, no matter the awareness rating.
But of course one adept is not enough for normal expansion, so myself
I tend to have 2 or 3 lowering awareness each turn after gaining some
nodes.

> Lines and Power
> Add something like this : If there isn't a Priest or the Origin as
> part of a line of effect, you cannot take over a node. This way, if
> the Investigator (or an enemy Cult) cuts your line of supply, the
> orphaned/end points cannot be expanded from, until they are
> reconnected. Or, maybe they don't deliver resources? This would make
> extra connections between points valuable, and allow you to cripple a
> Cult by severing the lines to the bulk of their generators if they
> were so foolish as to overextend themselves.

Oh yeah, I remember about that one. This would take some coding skills
to implement the checking for separation (I'm lazy, yeah). Also it has
the same problems like the idea in your previous message - it will
lengthen the game more etc. More importantly it's not that kind of
connection. Those nodes won't lose their abilities when the link is
severed. The link is more of a social one, rather then a geographical
one, it's the other followers you know personally rather then someone
you rely upon.

> Long again! But I am playing a lot.
> M

Glad to hear that!