Curiously, I found the Everything List, because I wanted to to create a "A Universe Where Everything Can Exist" ( https://mindey.com/world.pdf ), which the Google search of 2007 returned me to my search query "How to create a universe, where everything can exist?"
So, suppose that we create a universe, where everything exists, -- would that universe be a superset of all possible universes, or, just the same set?
On 26 Nov 2020, at 18:57, Mindey I. <min...@mindey.com> wrote:Curiously, I found the Everything List, because I wanted to to create a "A Universe Where Everything Can Exist" ( https://mindey.com/world.pdf ), which the Google search of 2007 returned me to my search query "How to create a universe, where everything can exist?”
So, suppose that we create a universe, where everything exists, -- would that universe be a superset of all possible universes, or, just the same set?
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On 27 Nov 2020, at 15:00, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:This is a part of what I said earlier. Think of this with Bayesian statistics with P(A∩B ) = p(A|B)p(B) = p(B|A)p(A).
With an excluded middle with A∩B = Ø we can only conclude that p(A|B) = p(B|A) = 0 and so these correspond to situation with absolutely zero prior or posterior probabilities. So if some state of affairs is contradictory, then they have zero probability.
In quantum logic we can think of this according to destructive interference, so there are physical states that cannot exist by destructive interference.
LCOn Friday, November 27, 2020 at 4:14:05 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:On 26 Nov 2020, at 18:57, Mindey I. <min...@mindey.com> wrote:Curiously, I found the Everything List, because I wanted to to create a "A Universe Where Everything Can Exist" ( https://mindey.com/world.pdf ), which the Google search of 2007 returned me to my search query "How to create a universe, where everything can exist?”What do you mean?In such a universe there would be circle with four sides?The word" thing” needs a presentation or representation in some theory of “thing".I urge people to study a bit of mathematical logic which explains all this.So, suppose that we create a universe, where everything exists, -- would that universe be a superset of all possible universes, or, just the same set?”everything” is too much ambiguous without a theory of the things which are assumed.All notions of whole, are limited when made precise enough, or are inconsistent. The term “universe” is as bad as the term “god” when used out of an hypothetical frame.Today, we can approximate string notion of everything is classical set theory, but like in arithmetic, you will always miss the big whole. The collection of all set cannot be a set. The number of numbers cannot be a number, the whole physical reality cannot be a physical object … Now, this can be doubted if you use a special set theory allowing universal object, like Quine's New Foundation, but this does not prevent other type of limitations.Bruno--
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On 27 Nov 2020, at 15:00, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:This is a part of what I said earlier. Think of this with Bayesian statistics with P(A∩B ) = p(A|B)p(B) = p(B|A)p(A).What are A and B. What is the probability space? (OMEGA). I am not sure what are your assumption. It seems that you assume some probability theory.
On 9 Dec 2020, at 20:31, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 8:01:30 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:On 27 Nov 2020, at 15:00, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:This is a part of what I said earlier. Think of this with Bayesian statistics with P(A∩B ) = p(A|B)p(B) = p(B|A)p(A).What are A and B. What is the probability space? (OMEGA). I am not sure what are your assumption. It seems that you assume some probability theory.A and B just stand for events or outcomes.
Bayes theorem is really similar to Boolean logic,
but where instead of 0 and 1 there are probabilities with a measure in between these two Boolean limits. It really is a generalization of standard logic, and as such embeds the theorems that apply to such. That is a bold unproven statement on my behalf, but it at least makes sense.
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On 9 Dec 2020, at 20:31, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 8:01:30 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:On 27 Nov 2020, at 15:00, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:This is a part of what I said earlier. Think of this with Bayesian statistics with P(A∩B ) = p(A|B)p(B) = p(B|A)p(A).What are A and B. What is the probability space? (OMEGA). I am not sure what are your assumption. It seems that you assume some probability theory.A and B just stand for events or outcomes.But what is the space of probability? What is Kolmogorov OMEGA?
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Mindey asked a very interesting question, and I've been thinking about it while following the discussion. I don't have a good answer, but I might have a good question. I propose another take: the discussion so far has been in terms of quanta, but what if we reframed it in terms of qualia?Imagine the "universe" in terms of the set of all first-person experience moments of all of its inhabitants. Is there a limit to novelty here? Or can qualia also display unbounded complexity?
It would seem to need a definition of a "first person experience moment". Personally I don't think my experiences are very big in information terms. Notice how easily we are fooled by illusions, which tells me that a lot of our "experience" content is fabricated.
But I don't think by experience comes in "moments". They have extent in experienced time and even overlap. And again there is fabrication. If you look a someone talking on TV, you see their lips and their sounds as synchronized. And even as you move further away from the TV you continue to perceive them as synchronized...up to a point at which you suddenly start to see the sound as delayed. Your brain was imposing synchronization earlier.
It would seem to need a definition of a "first person experience moment".
Personally I don't think my experiences are very big in information terms. Notice how easily we are fooled by illusions, which tells me that a lot of our "experience" content is fabricated. But I don't think by experience comes in "moments". They have extent in experienced time and even overlap. And again there is fabrication. If you look a someone talking on TV, you see their lips and their sounds as synchronized. And even as you move further away from the TV you continue to perceive them as synchronized...up to a point at which you suddenly start to see the sound as delayed. Your brain was imposing synchronization earlier.
BrentOn 12/10/2020 7:14 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:Mindey asked a very interesting question, and I've been thinking about it while following the discussion. I don't have a good answer, but I might have a good question. I propose another take: the discussion so far has been in terms of quanta, but what if we reframed it in terms of qualia?Imagine the "universe" in terms of the set of all first-person experience moments of all of its inhabitants. Is there a limit to novelty here? Or can qualia also display unbounded complexity?TelmoAm Fr, 27. Nov 2020, um 18:35, schrieb Tomas Pales:The idea of an all-encompassing set (a set of all sets) is inconsistent, for example because the power set of a set (=the set of all subsets of a set) is an even bigger set. If a set is infinite then its power set has an even bigger infinite size. So there is no biggest set, just as there is no biggest number and no biggest infinity. There just seems to be a never-ending hierarchy of sets, from the empty set upward and maybe there are also sets that have no bottom, that is they contain sets that contain sets etc. without end. But everything needs to be kept consistent and I have heard that according to Godel's second incompleteness theorem there may be inconsistencies lurking in infinities which we may never be able to detect.On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 6:57:47 PM UTC+1 Mindey I. wrote:Curiously, I found the Everything List, because I wanted to to create a "A Universe Where Everything Can Exist" ( https://mindey.com/world.pdf ), which the Google search of 2007 returned me to my search query "How to create a universe, where everything can exist?"So, suppose that we create a universe, where everything exists, -- would that universe be a superset of all possible universes, or, just the same set?
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On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 4:14:42 PM UTC+1 telmo wrote:Mindey asked a very interesting question, and I've been thinking about it while following the discussion. I don't have a good answer, but I might have a good question. I propose another take: the discussion so far has been in terms of quanta, but what if we reframed it in terms of qualia?Imagine the "universe" in terms of the set of all first-person experience moments of all of its inhabitants. Is there a limit to novelty here? Or can qualia also display unbounded complexity?No serious philosopher/linguist I know of argues for a bound there in principle. At least not in my modest reading of antique treatments, and neither more recently in Baumgarten, Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche, Valéry, Heidegger, Adorno, and contemporary thinkers. I wouldn't think Bruno does either with []p & <>t & p.
And moving from sensation to aesthetic sensation, or sets of sensations pursued as ends in themselves, subjectivity liberates the richness of reality (or Bruno's "p" if you want) to be experienced as a pleasurable confirmation of its broad and limitless accessibility to us. We pursue that unbounded complexity.
Even if experiencing reality is not sharable in its entirety or with absolute precision, the pursuit and analysis of accounts of sensation or experience reports, can be useful in guiding us toward the good stuff, e.g. conjunction of novel/unknown with a particular pleasure. PGC
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Am Do, 10. Dez 2020, um 20:48, schrieb PGC:On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 4:14:42 PM UTC+1 telmo wrote:Mindey asked a very interesting question, and I've been thinking about it while following the discussion. I don't have a good answer, but I might have a good question. I propose another take: the discussion so far has been in terms of quanta, but what if we reframed it in terms of qualia?Imagine the "universe" in terms of the set of all first-person experience moments of all of its inhabitants. Is there a limit to novelty here? Or can qualia also display unbounded complexity?No serious philosopher/linguist I know of argues for a bound there in principle. At least not in my modest reading of antique treatments, and neither more recently in Baumgarten, Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche, Valéry, Heidegger, Adorno, and contemporary thinkers. I wouldn't think Bruno does either with []p & <>t & p.It did not occur me to ask linguists, but fair enough. I would say that there is a correspondence between language and qualia, but that is a deep rabbit hole. Language clearly has boundless complexity, but this does not convince me that the qualia it points to also do. We can easily fall into Borat's "and is this cheese?" scenarios.
And moving from sensation to aesthetic sensation, or sets of sensations pursued as ends in themselves, subjectivity liberates the richness of reality (or Bruno's "p" if you want) to be experienced as a pleasurable confirmation of its broad and limitless accessibility to us. We pursue that unbounded complexity.Yes, but what if "richness of reality" is just a qualia without much diversity?
On 10 Dec 2020, at 16:14, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.net> wrote:Mindey asked a very interesting question, and I've been thinking about it while following the discussion. I don't have a good answer, but I might have a good question. I propose another take: the discussion so far has been in terms of quanta, but what if we reframed it in terms of qualia?Imagine the "universe" in terms of the set of all first-person experience moments of all of its inhabitants. Is there a limit to novelty here? Or can qualia also display unbounded complexity?
TelmoAm Fr, 27. Nov 2020, um 18:35, schrieb Tomas Pales:The idea of an all-encompassing set (a set of all sets) is inconsistent, for example because the power set of a set (=the set of all subsets of a set) is an even bigger set. If a set is infinite then its power set has an even bigger infinite size. So there is no biggest set, just as there is no biggest number and no biggest infinity. There just seems to be a never-ending hierarchy of sets, from the empty set upward and maybe there are also sets that have no bottom, that is they contain sets that contain sets etc. without end. But everything needs to be kept consistent and I have heard that according to Godel's second incompleteness theorem there may be inconsistencies lurking in infinities which we may never be able to detect.On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 6:57:47 PM UTC+1 Mindey I. wrote:Curiously, I found the Everything List, because I wanted to to create a "A Universe Where Everything Can Exist" ( https://mindey.com/world.pdf ), which the Google search of 2007 returned me to my search query "How to create a universe, where everything can exist?"So, suppose that we create a universe, where everything exists, -- would that universe be a superset of all possible universes, or, just the same set?
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>> On 12/13/2020 9:11 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> We cannot start from consciousness,
> and we cannot start with matter, which are the notion that we have to explain from numbers,
> Why can't you start from consciousness. It's more immediately known than numbers.
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I agree. I'm an advocate of the engineering solution to the "hard problem of consciousness". When we can build AI's that act intelligently and explain their conscious thoughts and we can adjust them so that they are more or less humorous or optimistic v. pessimstic or intuitive v. contemplative, etc...then we will have understood as much as there is to understand about consciousness.