A odd Gravitational Wave

[John Clark]

At 9:02:11 PM Eastern Standard Time on Monday January 13 the 2 LIGO detectors in the USA and the VIRGO detector in Italy noticed an unusual Gravitational Wave, unlike merging Neutron Stars that produce waves that last about 30 seconds and merging stellar mass Black Holes that last about a second this one only lasted for 14 milliseconds. Nobody is quite sure what caused it, the best guess is a unnovae, they have been observed optically a few times in stars too large to go supernova and instead collapse directly into Black Holes and just turn off; no supernova has ever been observed from a star larger than 18 solar masses although stars well over 100 solar masses exist. As it happened this event occurred on a area in the sky near to but not precisely at Betelgeuse's location, but Betelgeuse is still there and probably isn't massive enough to be a unnovae, its eventual fate is probably just a boring old Supernova. And the wave could be caused by something else, 14 milliseconds is pretty short even for a unnovae.

Gravitational-Wave Candidate Event Database

John K Clark 

 

[Brent Meeker]

You can't have a monopole wave in gravity.  So how would a simple direct collapse create a gravitational wave?  Just small anisotropies?

Brent

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[John Clark]

On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 5:00 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> You can't have a monopole wave in gravity.  So how would a simple direct collapse create a gravitational wave?  Just small anisotropies?

I was wondering about that too. I guess some figure the collapse would not be symmetrical, but 14 milliseconds seems really really short to me. I wouldn't be surprised if the cause was something completely unknown; 2 sub solar mass Black Holes coalescing maybe? That would be really exciting if true. Black Holes that small would pretty much have to be primordial, I can't think of anything except the Big Bang itself that would have conditions extreme enough to produce them. 

 John K Clark 

[Brent Meeker]

Well, if it's any help, a black with a mass of 55 metric tons has lifetime of 14 ms.  It's also much smaller than a proton.

Brent

[Lawrence Crowell]

There have been a couple of these unnova events. Some stars have just winked out almost instantly. I would imagine this would ;produce a fair amount of gravitational radiation, even if the whole star is gulped by a black hole before EM radiation escapes. I would hazard to propose this gravitational wave blip might be due to a small mass, maybe a planet, falling into a black hole. Rogue planets are now thought to populate the region around a 4.1 million solar mass BH at SgrA in the Milky Way center. There is evidence this central region is populated by BHs in the 10 solar mass range as well. So the prospect for a planetary mass falling into some BH is fairly high. This may repeat in other galaxies, so I would conjecture a planet or planetary mass fell into a BH somewhere in another galaxy.

LC

 

[John Clark]

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 6:01 AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There have been a couple of these unnova events. Some stars have just winked out almost instantly. I would imagine this would ;produce a fair amount of gravitational radiation, even if the whole star is gulped by a black hole before EM radiation escapes.

That's what some are saying, but wouldn't the collapse have to be pretty unsymmetrical for a significant amount of Gravitational Waves to be produced?  

 

> I would hazard to propose this gravitational wave blip might be due to a small mass, maybe a planet, falling into a black hole.

A stellar mass Black Hole couldn't swallow a planet in one gulp, tidal forces would tear it apart into dust long before it reached the Event Horizon. The tidal force is weaker for a supermassive Black Hole so a small strong nickel-iron asteroid might reach the Event Horizon more or less intact, but the mass would be so low I don't think the Gravitational Waves would amount to much, and the nearest supermassive is a long way away.

John K Clark

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 5:32:50 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote:

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 6:01 AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There have been a couple of these unnova events. Some stars have just winked out almost instantly. I would imagine this would ;produce a fair amount of gravitational radiation, even if the whole star is gulped by a black hole before EM radiation escapes.

That's what some are saying, but wouldn't the collapse have to be pretty unsymmetrical for a significant amount of Gravitational Waves to be produced?  

The implosion has to have a quadrupole moment. That could generate a gravitational wave. How the astrophysics of this works is not my bailiwick so I have to punt on any statement about the astrophysics,

 

 

> I would hazard to propose this gravitational wave blip might be due to a small mass, maybe a planet, falling into a black hole.

A stellar mass Black Hole couldn't swallow a planet in one gulp, tidal forces would tear it apart into dust long before it reached the Event Horizon. The tidal force is weaker for a supermassive Black Hole so a small strong nickel-iron asteroid might reach the Event Horizon more or less intact, but the mass would be so low I don't think the Gravitational Waves would amount to much, and the nearest supermassive is a long way away.

A planet entering stellar mass black hole would be tidally disrupted and it would be pulled into a streamer. The 1994  cometary impact on Jupiter is a plausible model. A lump of matter crossing the event horizon will be physics of moving a holographic screen and there will be a gravitational wave. The details of this again I am not that privy to. Maybe the BH has to be an intermediate mass BH.

LC

 

John K Clark

[Tomasz Rola]

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 04:13:07AM -0800, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
>
> On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 5:32:50 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 6:01 AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com

> > <javascript:>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > *> There have been a couple of these unnova events. Some stars have just

> >> winked out almost instantly. I would imagine this would ;produce a fair
> >> amount of gravitational radiation, even if the whole star is gulped by a

> >> black hole before EM radiation escapes. *

Are those "unnova events" summarized somewhere? Gog only knows about some
kids' artefacts. Is there a pattern or are they more or less random?

[...]

> > A stellar mass Black Hole couldn't swallow a planet in one gulp, tidal
> > forces would tear it apart into dust long before it reached the Event
> > Horizon. The tidal force is weaker for a supermassive Black Hole so a small
> > strong nickel-iron asteroid might reach the Event Horizon more or less
> > intact, but the mass would be so low I don't think the Gravitational Waves
> > would amount to much, and the nearest supermassive is a long way away.
> >
>
> A planet entering stellar mass black hole would be tidally disrupted and it
> would be pulled into a streamer. The 1994 cometary impact on Jupiter is a
> plausible model. A lump of matter crossing the event horizon will be
> physics of moving a holographic screen and there will be a gravitational
> wave. The details of this again I am not that privy to. Maybe the BH has to
> be an intermediate mass BH.

Could it be a relatively small BH swallowing something in Kuiper
Belt/van Oort Cloud?

Could it be a signature of something being "unswallowed"? As in, some
kind of transportation means which have not been discovered yet on
this puny planet. Yeah, kind of, jumping out of "hyperspace" or
whatever it could be called. No, I am not a big fan of Star Wars, not
even a small fan (i.e. I am posting a serious question, even if movie
industry works hard to make it sound stupid).

--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
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** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
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** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomas...@bigfoot.com **

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 2:45:20 PM UTC-6, Tomasz Rola wrote:

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 04:13:07AM -0800, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
>
> On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 5:32:50 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 6:01 AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com
> > <javascript:>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > *> There have been a couple of these unnova events. Some stars have just
> >> winked out almost instantly. I would imagine this would ;produce a fair
> >> amount of gravitational radiation, even if the whole star is gulped by a
> >> black hole before EM radiation escapes. *

Are those "unnova events" summarized somewhere? Gog only knows about some
kids' artefacts. Is there a pattern or are they more or less random?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_supernova

 

[...]
> > A stellar mass Black Hole couldn't swallow a planet in one gulp, tidal
> > forces would tear it apart into dust long before it reached the Event
> > Horizon. The tidal force is weaker for a supermassive Black Hole so a small
> > strong nickel-iron asteroid might reach the Event Horizon more or less
> > intact, but the mass would be so low I don't think the Gravitational Waves
> > would amount to much, and the nearest supermassive is a long way away.
> >
>
> A planet entering stellar mass black hole would be tidally disrupted and it
> would be pulled into a streamer. The 1994  cometary impact on Jupiter is a
> plausible model. A lump of matter crossing the event horizon will be
> physics of moving a holographic screen and there will be a gravitational
> wave. The details of this again I am not that privy to. Maybe the BH has to
> be an intermediate mass BH.

Could it be a relatively small BH swallowing something in Kuiper
Belt/van Oort Cloud?

Could it be a signature of something being "unswallowed"? As in, some
kind of transportation means which have not been discovered yet on
this puny planet. Yeah, kind of, jumping out of "hyperspace" or
whatever it could be called. No, I am not a big fan of Star Wars, not
even a small fan (i.e. I am posting a serious question, even if movie
industry works hard to make it sound stupid).

I doubt it is anything that exotic. If this should turn out be a black hole lurking in the Oort cloud we better get a space probe ready to launch ASAP! It could not be in the Kuiper belt, for the perturbation by gravity of planetary motion would be noticeable. There was some conjecture the so called Planet 9 some are looking for is a mini-black hole with Neptune mass. I sort of doubt this is the case. I am not sure how such a BH could have arisen. 

Star Wars was great when I was a teenager and they came out. Later these films lost some of their appeal, as character development is rather 2 dimensional. They are sort of space-operas with a mythic sort of aspect to them. I have not seen some of the later ones that have come out in the last few years,

LC

[John Clark]

On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 8:03 PM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There was some conjecture the so called Planet 9 some are looking for is a mini-black hole with Neptune mass. I sort of doubt this is the case.

I sort of doubt it too, but boy oh boy it would sure be great if it turned out to be true, we could actually send a space probe to examine a Black Hole!

> I am not sure how such a BH could have arisen.

If sub-solar mass Mini-Black Holes exist I think they must have been produced in the first nanoseconds of the Big Bang, I can't think of anything else that would have conditions extreme enough to make them. 

 John K Clark

[Lawrence Crowell]

The problem with that is it would predict a larger initial entropy for the universe. That would be the case if there were a fair number of them.

LC 

[John Clark]

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 12:45 PM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> If sub-solar mass Mini-Black Holes exist I think they must have been produced in the first nanoseconds of the Big Bang, I can't think of anything else that would have conditions extreme enough to make them. 

> The problem with that is it would predict a larger initial entropy for the universe. That would be the case if there were a fair number of them.

Yes but the universe doesn't have to start off with zero entropy, just a much lower entropy than what we have now, and we certainly have a lot more Black Holes now than we did then.

 John K Clark