The Observer & The Existence of Reality

[Samiya Illias]

The Observer & The Existence of Reality 

A Religious Perspective 

https://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2020/04/the-observer-existence-of-reality.html 

[spudb...@aol.com]

Yeah, your author is not the only person to think this way or suspect that it may be correct as in accurate? 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/294721340_God_is_a_Vacuum_Fluctuation

This also in a, sort of mixing in with, the idea of a great mind (God) evolving from a Boltzmann Brain. Thus, the thermodynamics of a Boltzmann Brain is a rare thing, and if we go by thing and its evolution into a supreme mind, rarer still. However, all it needs is to happen once. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_brain

So, if you have pleased, the All-Mighty, and are ushered in to Janah, and you are given permission, what would you do for your first year there?

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[Samiya Illias]

If the All-Mighty God accepts me in The Kingdom of The Hereafter, I trust He will explain to us our roles, responsibilities, perks and privileges.
He didn’t create this world without purpose, I’m sure there is a greater purpose to our eternal life!

[Bruno Marchal]

Samiya,

That is what you get close to when believing in the collapse of the wave in Quantum Mechanics. That’s why some say, like Belinfante (working on hidden variable QM),  QM implies a God or a Multiverse. The notion of God unfortunately cannot be used in this context, unless God itself is explained, but by definition it can’t. 

With mechanism things are simpler, there is the arithmetical reality, and the multiverse appearance is explained by the many computational histories, consciousness is explained by a semantic sort of fixed point, and the appearance of a unique universal history is explained by human hubris. 

As the mechanist explanation is testable, let us continue the test, but I would say that materialism (the belief in ontological matter) is already refuted, which explains why the most serious materialist try to get rid of consciousness.

Bruno

[spudb...@aol.com]

I was just pondering that sure perks, privileges, explanations, but if you are given permission, what would you like to do or learn? Sure, with holy limits and all, but unbound by time, energy, money? Most people, even kuffars, would like to catch up with family and friend of course, but assuming you get the welcome, what things? 

-----Original Message-----
From: Samiya Illias <samiya...@gmail.com>

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> On 23-Apr-2020, at 6:05 AM, spudb...@aol.com wrote:
>
> So, if you have pleased, the All-Mighty, and are ushered in to Janah, and you are given permission, what would you do for your first year there?

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[spudb...@aol.com]

So, I have pondered that after countless ages and cycles, Turok/Steinhardt Buddha, Brahma, out of thermodynamic instabilities, a Boltzmann Brain finally emerges. Creates his or her own history and the universe flows forth. Is this true? [SHRUG!] I don't know but it seems conjecturally, tasty Bruno, at least to me. 

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[Bruno Marchal]

> On 23 Apr 2020, at 06:53, Samiya Illias <samiya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If the All-Mighty God accepts me in The Kingdom of The Hereafter, I trust He will explain to us our roles, responsibilities, perks and privileges.

OK.

> He didn’t create this world without purpose,

So let us search the purpose, and try theories. The notion of purpose is not an easy notion.

> I’m sure there is a greater purpose to our eternal life!

So let us do the research work, as this is not obvious, although a pleasant idea (but that is reason to be careful on this, especially when we are still on the terrestrial plane, where modesty is not so much an option).

When you assume a greater purpose you need to take into account that some people will borrow an ersatz greater purpose for terrestrial use, and that this can eventually hide for long the genuine higher purpose of the higher self. The machine already understand that some (religious) truth go only without saying.

Those who trust the great Goddess leaves the advertising to Her.The genuine mystic stays mute, or propose some theory and reason conditionally.

Bruno

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>
>
>> On 23-Apr-2020, at 6:05 AM, spudb...@aol.com wrote:
>>

>> So, if you have pleased, the All-Mighty, and are ushered in to Janah, and you are given permission, what would you do for your first year there?
>

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 24 Apr 2020, at 06:29, spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

So, I have pondered that after countless ages and cycles, Turok/Steinhardt Buddha, Brahma, out of thermodynamic instabilities, a Boltzmann Brain finally emerges. Creates his or her own history and the universe flows forth. Is this true? [SHRUG!] I don't know but it seems conjecturally, tasty Bruno, at least to me. 

After Göde’s 1931, + Turing 1936 (all foreseen by Emil Post 1920s), we know that all computations, and thus all Boltzman brain (whatever means are used to define them) are run in arithmetic.

This disappoints some people when they grasp this fact.Yet it does not trivialise physics or theology, as it leads to a derivation of them from arithmetic, and this makes mechanism testable. 

Is this true? How could we ever knows that? Ins science we never say that a theory is true, we count the evidences and measure some degree of plausibility (that degree is not a number, note, but eventually a personal feeling).

What we can say is that there are still no evidence for a primitively material universe, and rather a lot of evidences against it. The problem with the humans is that in the fundamental domain, they don’t care about evidence, and they care only on their wishes. 

Many people confused physics and metaphysics, observation and facts, proof and truth, etc. In theology, we still tolerate the lies, we still hide pour ignorance, and put the question under the rug (and mock the solutions by the same occasion).

The evidences for the physical laws are not evidences for a physical Universe.

What many people miss is just the fact that elementary arithmetic run all simulable reality, and that the physical reality emerges in a non computable way from all computations, making both consciousness and the physical reality not computable, and only partially predictable. Observations confirms this quantitatively and qualitatively (modal logic of obserrvable extrapolate from observation are similar to what is made oblatory from universal machine reasoning and introspection).

It is the idea of a (primary) physical universe which is metaphysically conjectural. With mechanism, physics is not the fundamental science, despite its enormous importance, notably for the human consciousness. But “important” does not mean primitively real.

Bruno 

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[Samiya Illias]

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 4:14:45 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

> On 23 Apr 2020, at 06:53, Samiya Illias <samiya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If the All-Mighty God accepts me in The Kingdom of The Hereafter, I trust He will explain to us our roles, responsibilities, perks and privileges.

OK.

No it is not OK. Religion is based on the idea that truth is handed down by a divine authority. Religion claims to have the ultimate truth, or THE TRUTH, and we are supposed to wait patiently for a great day of revelation. For most of us this will come after death, where if we have done all the right things, according to various scriptures, we will come to know the ultimate Truth and live in eternal bliss. For those who are errant they get to spend eternity in a pit of endless fire where they suffer until the end of time --- but somehow this God still loves us. 

I don't know about anyone else, but I call this a big hustle. These religions were schemes concocted by various religious and political con-men as a way people could be controlled and society choreographed according to the wishes of an ecclesiastical class. Both Christianity and Islam suffer from this problem, they are huge social-psychological cons played against people, and where these schemes have a lot of staying power. They are sorts of neural-brain memes that lodges themselves in minds and are difficult to remove. 

I read a translation of the Koran after 9/11. I would say my general comment is that if this were first published now, with crisp new copies available at bookstores and Amazon, the reviewers would be calling it the screed of a complete lunatic. The Mecca Koran, which is thought to have been written when Muhammed was in Mecca with his few followers, is relatively inoffensive and reads a bit like Psalms or Proverbs. The second Medina Koran was allegedly written after they got their butts kicked out of Mecca, and this part is pure insanity. 

We really should be done with these silly things. These are based on mythic narratives concerning ideas from the ancient world. They may have made sense then, but really some education and thought should indicate how utterly ineffective monotheist religion is as telling us anything really meaningful or useful. It is a load of nonsense. We do not sit with slack jaw waiting for some great Santa Claus or fairy godmother to come and reveal ALL to us. Instead we think, observe, measure, rethink and … , repeat, in order to know what is truthful within the limits and tentative certitude of science.

LC

> He didn’t create this world without purpose,


So let us search the purpose, and try theories. The notion of purpose is not an easy notion.



> I’m sure there is a greater purpose to our eternal life!


So let us do the research work, as this is not obvious, although a pleasant idea (but that is reason to be careful on this, especially when we are still on the terrestrial plane, where modesty is not so much an option).

When you assume a greater purpose you need to take into account that some people will borrow an ersatz greater purpose for terrestrial use, and that this can eventually hide for long the genuine higher purpose of the higher self. The machine already understand that some (religious) truth go only without saying.

Those who trust the great Goddess leaves the advertising to Her.The genuine mystic stays mute, or propose some theory and reason conditionally.

Bruno




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>> On 23-Apr-2020, at 6:05 AM, spudb...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> So, if you have pleased, the All-Mighty, and are ushered in to Janah, and you are given permission, what would you do for your first year there?
>
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[Bruno Marchal]

On 27 Apr 2020, at 14:36, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 4:14:45 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

> On 23 Apr 2020, at 06:53, Samiya Illias <samiya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If the All-Mighty God accepts me in The Kingdom of The Hereafter, I trust He will explain to us our roles, responsibilities, perks and privileges.

OK.

No it is not OK. Religion is based on the idea that truth is handed down by a divine authority.

It comes from the insight of the greeks that Truth is an authority we better should not hide, even if we cannot define it.

It is related to the fact that you cannot put your hand in the fire, and relativise what is happening. 

Religion claims to have the ultimate truth, or THE TRUTH,

Only when a tyran steal the domain to those who can remain serious and modest on the complex foundational issues.

Dont confuse god, the object of theological study, and god, the object of naïve popular fairy tales, especially when it is mixed with state and politics. (The genuine blasphemy). 

Yes, I know that we have to backtrack about 1500 years to find serious studies, but if you study the history of religion, you can understand that serious theologian have continue to exist, although usually hiding their theories, or presenting them in a way so that they are not immediately send at stake.

and we are supposed to wait patiently for a great day of revelation.

Religion has something to do with personal experience, which are usually forbidden once the religion is stolen by politics, let us say. 

For most of us this will come after death, where if we have done all the right things, according to various scriptures,

Of course in science there is no scripture, except papers and treatises.

we will come to know the ultimate Truth and live in eternal bliss.

Of course those terms must be defined before we conclude anything, and such a conclusion would only be conditional on some theory. For example, if we assume mechanism, we cannot assume consistently materialism. (That is not entirely obvious, but I got this in the 1970s, at a time where most people told me that this was not original, and indeed that was understood by the greeks already).

For those who are errant they get to spend eternity in a pit of endless fire where they suffer until the end of time --- but somehow this God still loves us. 

That god is omniscient and omnipotent, which is logically impossible. Since St-Thomas, even the (educated) christians does not take any of this literally. I am aware that American Evangelist does, or at least fall they do, but apparently it is used only for making the people offering planes and money to the boss. The con-artistry is just obvious.

You can use such argument to defeat the literalist. Scared-text literalism is only a tool for propagating atheism.

I don't know about anyone else, but I call this a big hustle. These religions were schemes concocted by various religious and political con-men as a way people could be controlled and society choreographed according to the wishes of an ecclesiastical class.

Absolutely. That is why I insist that theology comes back at the academy, where doubts, critics, alternate theories, and research are encouraged.

Both Christianity and Islam suffer from this problem, they are huge social-psychological cons played against people, and where these schemes have a lot of staying power. They are sorts of neural-brain memes that lodges themselves in minds and are difficult to remove. 

Like all propaganda. It is to theology what astrology is to astronomy. 

I read a translation of the Koran after 9/11. I would say my general comment is that if this were first published now, with crisp new copies available at bookstores and Amazon, the reviewers would be calling it the screed of a complete lunatic.

What is lunatic is to read such text like if there were scientific attempt to understand things.  Before Al Ghazali, many muslims were quite open to this, and that is why they decide to come back to the greeks and translated their text, leading to science, but they will not benefit from it, as the dark mixing with power will come back and prevail. 

The Mecca Koran, which is thought to have been written when Muhammed was in Mecca with his few followers, is relatively inoffensive and reads a bit like Psalms or Proverbs. The second Medina Koran was allegedly written after they got their butts kicked out of Mecca, and this part is pure insanity. 

OK.

We really should be done with these silly things.

It is easy. Let us stop claim that science has solved the ontological problem, like materialist do (believer in primary mater).

These are based on mythic narratives concerning ideas from the ancient world.

That is not entirely true. Hypatia taught mathematics and theology in Alexandria, still around 300/400. But we can see the radicals taking position, and she will be murdered by them.

You just cannot compare Plotinus and Proclus to the reading of any sacred-fairy tales book. Those scared text are honorable witnessing of the past, but no-one would claim they even address the problem. 

They may have made sense then, but really some education and thought should indicate how utterly ineffective monotheist religion is as telling us anything really meaningful or useful.

Monotheism is the religion view of monism. At least Einstein was aware of that, and explained that without it, he would not even have searched for a his general relativity theory.

Monotheism is the grandmother of the theory of of everything, or of the insight we should unify our knowledge in a coherent way. The theism aspect is in the modesty, which enforces a constant listening to a ll arguments, even the most critical, especially the most critical (unless refuted of course).

It is a load of nonsense. We do not sit with slack jaw waiting for some great Santa Claus or fairy godmother to come and reveal ALL to us. Instead we think, observe, measure, rethink and … , repeat, in order to know what is truthful within the limits and tentative certitude of science.

There is no certitude in science. Just hypotheses/theories and degrees of plausibility. It does not matter so much in applied natural science, but it matters a lot in applied fundamental science, notably by understanding that in religion only the con men claims some truth. 

By leaving theology in the fairy tale literature, we give power to the tyran and to argument of authority in religion, but also we make science looking like if it was an alternative to religion, that is, we make science itself into a pseudo-religion. 

That separates eventually the whole human science from exact science, and that makes them both inhuman and inexact.

The problem is not God. The problem is that some people conclude that God does not exist when they find a contradiction in some theory of God. That would be like a scientists along that Earth does not exist, because the idea of infinitely many turtles does not make sense.

In science we very rarely abandon a concept. We just improve it through new theory.

I the greek theology, the starting God was the natural numbers, then the world of ideas, and then Aristotle added a physical primary universe. Today, se know or should know that such a primary physical universe is contradicted by Mechanism (even with just the amount of mechanism necessitate to make sense of Darwin).  

Here the problem is that those who claim to not have a religion appears to believe in Aristotle theology, the belief in a primary physical universe. This, as I have explained here, is just not working at all, unless you eliminate consciousness from the picture.

Unfortunately, there are still many people who are confusing the strong evidences for the physical laws with evidences for a primary physical universe, or for physicalism. That’s just wrong. That confuses physics and metaphysics. That is Aristotle act of faith in his metaphysics, and a sort of anti-platonic provocation, and misunderstanding. Of course people love it, as they love ontological commitments, as it seems reassuring I guess, but that is the kind of pseudo-religious wishful thinking that is not tolerated when we work with the scientific attitude.

We will leave the Middle-Age when theology is back, probably as an option in advanced mathematical logic and computer science (even non-mechanist position can be get more precise ny making precise the digital mechanist position. We know that the modal logic G and G* remains sound, but some can lose completeness, like “being true in all *transitive* models of ZF”. (Being true in *all* models of ZF is just provability for which G and G* are complete in their respective roles).

Bruno

LC

> He didn’t create this world without purpose,


So let us search the purpose, and try theories. The notion of purpose is not an easy notion.



> I’m sure there is a greater purpose to our eternal life!


So let us do the research work, as this is not obvious, although a pleasant idea (but that is reason to be careful on this, especially when we are still on the terrestrial plane, where modesty is not so much an option).

When you assume a greater purpose you need to take into account that some people will borrow an ersatz greater purpose for terrestrial use, and that this can eventually hide for long the genuine higher purpose of the higher self. The machine already understand that some (religious) truth go only without saying.

Those who trust the great Goddess leaves the advertising to Her.The genuine mystic stays mute, or propose some theory and reason conditionally.

Bruno




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>
>> On 23-Apr-2020, at 6:05 AM, spudb...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> So, if you have pleased, the All-Mighty, and are ushered in to Janah, and you are given permission, what would you do for your first year there?
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group.
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[spudb...@aol.com]

If we can find the Great Mind's purpose, yeah, Computer Scientists and Mathematicians might comprehend it. Astronomers and physicists would have to (in my imagination) locate the instruction set and decipher it. Me? I am waiting for the virus closures to life. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be>
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Mon, Apr 27, 2020 5:14 am
Subject: Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality

> On 23 Apr 2020, at 06:53, Samiya Illias <samiya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If the All-Mighty God accepts me in The Kingdom of The Hereafter, I trust He will explain to us our roles, responsibilities, perks and privileges.

OK.


> He didn’t create this world without purpose,


So let us search the purpose, and try theories. The notion of purpose is not an easy notion.



> I’m sure there is a greater purpose to our eternal life!


So let us do the research work, as this is not obvious, although a pleasant idea (but that is reason to be careful on this, especially when we are still on the terrestrial plane, where modesty is not so much an option).

When you assume a greater purpose you need to take into account that some people will borrow an ersatz greater purpose for terrestrial use, and that this can eventually hide for long the genuine higher purpose of the higher self. The machine already understand that some (religious) truth go only without saying.

Those who trust the great Goddess leaves the advertising to Her.The genuine mystic stays mute, or propose some theory and reason conditionally.

Bruno




>
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> <image0.jpeg>

>
>
>
>> On 23-Apr-2020, at 6:05 AM, spudb...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> So, if you have pleased, the All-Mighty, and are ushered in to Janah, and you are given permission, what would you do for your first year there?

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group.

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 28 Apr 2020, at 02:35, spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

If we can find the Great Mind's purpose, yeah, Computer Scientists and Mathematicians might comprehend it. Astronomers and physicists would have to (in my imagination) locate the instruction set and decipher it. Me? I am waiting for the virus closures to life. 

I hope you are well. I don’t think the great mind has a purpose. Plotinus makes an excellent analysis why God cannot be part of the beings (despite or because he is responsible for the existence of each beings) and why God might not have a purpose at all, which is rather normal, as a purpose necessitate a form of incompleteness, and God is by definition complete.

That why the theology of the machine might be more like some school of hinduism or buddhism, with the idea that the “creation” is an illusion. Of course, in that case the creator is an illusion too.

We tolerate the naive anthropomorphisation because that’s has (and still is in some part of the world) a mean to make people obeying to a totally powerful tyran.

Keep in mind that for the greeks neoplatonician, god is just a nickname for the truth that we search. It is whatever explain all the rest. Theology is the fundamental science by definition, and then we can debate if that “everything” is a material being, a mathematical being, a personal being, a non-personal being, etc.

Usually the materialist start from the assumption of the creation, and makes it into a dogma. 

The constant debate on the existence of God or not, hides the fact that the meaning of that debate was, for the greeks, about the existence of a primary physical universe.

Once you understand the difference between truth and proof, and the fact that all computation are “truly” emulated in arithmetic, then, even without mechanism, we have a reason to doubt the existence of the primitive physical universe, and/or physicalism.

The notion of god is so general that its existence or its meta-existence is basically trivial in Platonism. Then the interesting question is on its nature. God is a very general notion, but is not trivial, like the collection of all sets is not a set. A model of set theory is a highly subtle notion. Mechanism works because there is a notion of universal machine, which is unique in mathematics and I would say the whole of science. The discovery of the universal machine is a bomb whose ripples will stay with us forever, and indeed we come from there (provably assuming mechanism).

Bruno

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[Lawrence Crowell]

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 11:20:37 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 27 Apr 2020, at 14:36, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 4:14:45 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

> On 23 Apr 2020, at 06:53, Samiya Illias <samiya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If the All-Mighty God accepts me in The Kingdom of The Hereafter, I trust He will explain to us our roles, responsibilities, perks and privileges.

OK.

No it is not OK. Religion is based on the idea that truth is handed down by a divine authority.

It comes from the insight of the greeks that Truth is an authority we better should not hide, even if we cannot define it.

It is related to the fact that you cannot put your hand in the fire, and relativise what is happening. 

Theology and science are in dialectic opposition. Monotheistic religions present a God that is really nothing more than a mystical form of Orwell's Big Brother. The whole business amounts to various enormous scams that control people. Christianity was the first, where the Hebrew God was co-opted into a Hellenic form with ideas of that God having been a man who sacrificed Himself to Himself, was resurrected to meet Himself in heaven, all because the first humans were deceived by a talking snake. If that is not a mythic narrative I do not know what is. Islam is a bit more straightforward, but Allah as presented in much of the Koran is an infinite mad defect, a sort of infinitely projected Hitler, who is ripe to met out vengeance and eternal punishment, and admonishes His followers to imitate this on Earth. There have been follow on relations, in particular Mormonism. That is a unique form of madness IMO.

In many ways I prefer the ideas of Taoism and Buddhism, which like monotheism reduced many gods to one or a few, but go an additional step further and have the 0-god. The Tao has features parallel to the quantum vacuum, and with what I am working with entanglement and gauge theory I think energy and entanglement form a wholeness that is similar to the "Qi." With these at least there is no Orwellian terror being in the sky we have to fall to our knees before.

If we humans were really the intelligent life form we pretend to be we would have gotten rid of the monotheistic beliefs at least a century ago.

LC

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/89cbc25a-b75e-4c9f-8600-343a09d8e0af%40googlegroups.com.

[Philip Benjamin]

[Philip Benjamin]

What logically coherent, empirically evident, experientially valid, answer can science or the WAMP give to the questions of aseity, causality, origin, meaning, morals, eschaton?

Philip Benjamin

[spudb...@aol.com]

I understand the need for non-belief, as well as feeling belief, and not surprisingly my amygdala has a lot to say about it-  
https://www.neuroscientificallychallenged.com/blog/know-your-brain-amygdala

I downloaded a book out of my amgydala's need for something scientific, and selected Brian Greene's "Till the End of Time." The back chapter's pleased the amygdala and the cerebrum, both,  and I stumbled across his section on Boltzmann Brain(s). I immediately sort of deified it informationally, because I often see this an answer (always, partial) of where God came from? Thus, a pop-up after so many random fluctuations. and here we all are. This view conflates with (at least for me), the writings of Canadian philosopher John Leslie:

 https://www.amazon.com/Infinite-Minds-Philosophical-John-Leslie/dp/0199248923

and

 https://www.amazon.com/Immortality-Defended-John-Leslie/dp/140516204X

Leslie has throughout his career used the work of physicists to inform his philosophy, and that is all. This is my "reply," to Lawrence Crowell's post from this morning. I have nothing else to peddle, so off I go...

-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com>
To: Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Apr 28, 2020 10:50 am
Subject: Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 11:20:37 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ msgid/everything-list/ 89cbc25a-b75e-4c9f-8600- 343a09d8e0af%40googlegroups. com.

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.

[spudb...@aol.com]

Thanks Bruno. Plotinus and Plato could easily have  been absolutely accurate, and maybe we may or but in my way of thinking, maybe not for quite a while. Having said this, if you go for my latching on to a ridiculous conjecture (driven surely by emotionalism!), I guess that given enormous time, plus vacuum flux, a mind out of nowhere sprang up ex-nihilo, up pops a mind with perhaps false memories and dreams us all up (physically). Maybe...maybe.... Do I win any prizes if I'm right? Perhaps El Gordo or the Irish Sweepstakes? 

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/533D9D0D-5BB8-4CD9-BEBD-CB8CB838D08C%40ulb.ac.be

.

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 10:00:35 AM UTC-5, medinuclear wrote:

[Philip Benjamin]

What logically coherent, empirically evident, experientially valid, answer can science or the WAMP give to the questions of aseity, causality, origin, meaning, morals, eschaton?

Philip Benjamin

It had some impact on causality and origin. The CMB is a remnant of big bang, which has some contact with origins. The homogeneity of the CMB tells us something about how in a primordial setting this was all in causal contact.  The other 4 things are of course off the science chart.

LC

[Philip Benjamin]

No, “the homogeneity of the CMB” tells NOTHING about causality, origin, meaning, morals, eschaton or infinite regress. It simply believes that CNB is homogeneous, that is all. What is MORE rational? Life-less CMB is aseitous and produce life? Or, INTELLIGENT LIFE is aseitous and create both dead matter, CMB and life? These issues are beyond the scope of any true Science which begins with observation and then proceed to experimentation, analysis and inferences.   

Philip Benjamin.

 

From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Lawrence Crowell
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 8:36 PM
To: Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality

 

On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 10:00:35 AM UTC-5, medinuclear wrote:

[Philip Benjamin]

What logically coherent, empirically evident, experientially valid, answer can science or the WAMP give to the questions of aseity, causality, origin, meaning, morals, eschaton?

Philip Benjamin

 

It had some impact on causality and origin. The CMB is a remnant of big bang, which has some contact with origins. The homogeneity of the CMB tells us something about how in a primordial setting this was all in causal contact.  The other 4 things are of course off the science chart.

 

LC

 

 

From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Lawrence Crowell
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 9:51 AM
To: Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality

 

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 11:20:37 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

 

On 27 Apr 2020, at 14:36, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 4:14:45 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

> On 23 Apr 2020, at 06:53, Samiya Illias <samiya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If the All-Mighty God accepts me in The Kingdom of The Hereafter, I trust He will explain to us our roles, responsibilities, perks and privileges.

OK.

 

No it is not OK. Religion is based on the idea that truth is handed down by a divine authority.

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[Lawrence Crowell]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 9:12:52 AM UTC-5, medinuclear wrote:

No, “the homogeneity of the CMB” tells NOTHING about causality, origin, meaning, morals, eschaton or infinite regress. It simply believes that CNB is homogeneous, that is all. What is MORE rational? Life-less CMB is aseitous and produce life? Or, INTELLIGENT LIFE is aseitous and create both dead matter, CMB and life? These issues are beyond the scope of any true Science which begins with observation and then proceed to experimentation, analysis and inferences.   

Philip Benjamin.

The homogeneity of the CMB is evidence these regions in the earliest universe were in causal contact. Since this is a signature of the big bang I would say this has at least a little bit to do with "origins." This implies nothing about aseity, morality or teleology of the universe.

LC

 

 

From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Lawrence Crowell
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 8:36 PM
To: Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality

 

On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 10:00:35 AM UTC-5, medinuclear wrote:

[Philip Benjamin]

What logically coherent, empirically evident, experientially valid, answer can science or the WAMP give to the questions of aseity, causality, origin, meaning, morals, eschaton?

Philip Benjamin

 

It had some impact on causality and origin. The CMB is a remnant of big bang, which has some contact with origins. The homogeneity of the CMB tells us something about how in a primordial setting this was all in causal contact.  The other 4 things are of course off the science chart.

 

LC

 

 

From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Lawrence Crowell
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 9:51 AM
To: Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality

 

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 11:20:37 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

 

On 27 Apr 2020, at 14:36, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 4:14:45 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

> On 23 Apr 2020, at 06:53, Samiya Illias <samiya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If the All-Mighty God accepts me in The Kingdom of The Hereafter, I trust He will explain to us our roles, responsibilities, perks and privileges.

OK.

 

No it is not OK. Religion is based on the idea that truth is handed down by a divine authority.

--
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[Eva]

You are right and it is very surprising to me that some people praise Catholic Church for superior progress of Latin Civilization compared to others.

And it is very interesting what you wrote about Tao. I just started reading a book:

https://www.amazon.com/Pilgrimages-Emptiness-Rethinking-Reality-through/dp/8895604326

in which, autor - physicist Shantena Augusto Sabbadini - explain connections between quantum physics and eastern philosophies, especially Taoism.

I did not finish yet, but I can say already that it is far from woo-woo.

The autor presents "participatory universe" conception of reality.

[spudb...@aol.com]

I can see the platonism of things or imagine that I can.I am profoundly convinced also (another topic) that math is truly a gift, due to the wiring of neurons. To your point my idea of Ludwig Boltzmann's simply seems logical, or the simplest explanation for things as they appear to us now. I am correct in this proposal? I should be the last person on this mailing list, because where's my mathematical proofs? Yes to Godel, Turing, Post, to Pauli, Dirac, and to so many more. How, I see the cosmos (and who cares how I see the cosmos) is not only as a computation, but as a computation that generated physical reality. Beyond, this I guess that this is the 2nd (or more!)rendition of the running of software, the program(s) have started, letting the errors pile up (the failings of nature around us), though things seem to work well despite this. Finally, to be run when the programmer gets things (for want of a better word) perfected. So am I advocating Nietzsche's Eternal Return? No, that'd also be an error, as in wasteful and redundant,  but the idea of God as programmer, courtesy, Juergen Schmidhuber, sort of blends in. 

Some nights I care and others I don't because of my dear, old, amygdala, and how life is treating me? Hopefully you are doing well, Bruno.

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/33D7C680-BD44-465D-8620-0F55E163DC3F%40ulb.ac.be

.

[Lawrence Crowell]

As I work on the topology of entanglements, different entanglements have different geometries and topologies, these structures have a curious dualism with gauge forces and in a sense energy. I think quantum gravitation requires a new form of equivalence principle. This equivalence principle states that two reference frames are inertial if the entanglement or entangled states they share maintain that entanglement. So, two frames in a gravitational field will maintain a quantum entanglement if they are on geodesics, even if there is a rapid geodesic deviation. Another way to think of this is that a vacuum state is a pure state on geodesic paths. The topological obstructions with different entanglements under a variational perturbation gives a form of GR dynamics. 

The relationship between entanglement and gauge symmetries is similar to the Qi. That this equivalence principle maintains a vacuum, or the entanglement of two vacua, as a pure state is a sort of “Tao in a vessel” idea. These are as I say parallel, and in the end Qu and Tao are just idea, and as Lao Tse put it, the names of these are not the eternal names. 

In college I got into marshal arts a bit. I did not pursue it terribly far, for I did not like the idea of breaking my nose or having concussions in more competitive sparring. However, the Qi is in a sense the whole of what is Kung Fu. The Force in Star Wars is a sort of simple-minded idea of Qi. This is the basis for all action and being. In the physics I have been doing things are at least remarkably parallel to that.

With my background with Catholicism and Judaism, I chose the latter. Judaism is the old crone of monotheism, and with events of 1933-45 there is the big question of “where was Ha Shem who chose us?” In the end there may simply be no such God and as Singer put it, “Why does the fiddler stay on the roof?” “Tradition” In the end it is about people. My feeling about monotheism in general is that it is a set of zombie beliefs. These continue onwards, even though the intellectual and scientific developments of recent centuries have rendered then meaningless. 

It is also interesting how those who are the most religious also cause the most mischief in the world. Even with Judaism, the Hassids cause the most trouble to Palestinians, and there is a sticky problem there. There are of course the Islamic extremists, and Christian fundamentalists have a range of insane ideas, including the need to launch nuclear missiles to bring Jesus back. We really should be done with these things, except maybe as some mythic set of traditions.

LC

[Alan Grayson]

On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 8:50:38 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 11:20:37 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 27 Apr 2020, at 14:36, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 4:14:45 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

> On 23 Apr 2020, at 06:53, Samiya Illias <samiya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If the All-Mighty God accepts me in The Kingdom of The Hereafter, I trust He will explain to us our roles, responsibilities, perks and privileges.

OK.

No it is not OK. Religion is based on the idea that truth is handed down by a divine authority.

It comes from the insight of the greeks that Truth is an authority we better should not hide, even if we cannot define it.

It is related to the fact that you cannot put your hand in the fire, and relativise what is happening. 

Theology and science are in dialectic opposition. Monotheistic religions present a God that is really nothing more than a mystical form of Orwell's Big Brother. The whole business amounts to various enormous scams that control people. Christianity was the first, where the Hebrew God was co-opted into a Hellenic form with ideas of that God having been a man who sacrificed Himself to Himself, was resurrected to meet Himself in heaven, all because the first humans were deceived by a talking snake. If that is not a mythic narrative I do not know what is. Islam is a bit more straightforward, but Allah as presented in much of the Koran is an infinite mad defect, a sort of infinitely projected Hitler, who is ripe to met out vengeance and eternal punishment, and admonishes His followers to imitate this on Earth. There have been follow on relations, in particular Mormonism. That is a unique form of madness IMO.

I've studied Mormonism seriously, and I know Mormons personally since I reside in Utah. The theology of Mormonism is totally ridiculous, but Mormons, by and large, are among the nicest human beings I have ever met.  AG

In many ways I prefer the ideas of Taoism and Buddhism, which like monotheism reduced many gods to one or a few, but go an additional step further and have the 0-god. The Tao has features parallel to the quantum vacuum, and with what I am working with entanglement and gauge theory I think energy and entanglement form a wholeness that is similar to the "Qi." With these at least there is no Orwellian terror being in the sky we have to fall to our knees before.

I've also studied Buddhism seriously, and at its core it's just another form of this-world denialism, which I find offensive. For Buddhists, the physical world is an illusion (which should find praise with Bruno!). And the Qi energy? Another defacto ether theory, which physics is schizophrenic about --in the sense that it keeps arising again and again in different forms, the latest being a scalar field, aka the Higgs field. AG

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 10:05:44 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:

On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 8:50:38 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 11:20:37 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 27 Apr 2020, at 14:36, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 4:14:45 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

> On 23 Apr 2020, at 06:53, Samiya Illias <samiya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If the All-Mighty God accepts me in The Kingdom of The Hereafter, I trust He will explain to us our roles, responsibilities, perks and privileges.

OK.

No it is not OK. Religion is based on the idea that truth is handed down by a divine authority.

It comes from the insight of the greeks that Truth is an authority we better should not hide, even if we cannot define it.

It is related to the fact that you cannot put your hand in the fire, and relativise what is happening. 

Theology and science are in dialectic opposition. Monotheistic religions present a God that is really nothing more than a mystical form of Orwell's Big Brother. The whole business amounts to various enormous scams that control people. Christianity was the first, where the Hebrew God was co-opted into a Hellenic form with ideas of that God having been a man who sacrificed Himself to Himself, was resurrected to meet Himself in heaven, all because the first humans were deceived by a talking snake. If that is not a mythic narrative I do not know what is. Islam is a bit more straightforward, but Allah as presented in much of the Koran is an infinite mad defect, a sort of infinitely projected Hitler, who is ripe to met out vengeance and eternal punishment, and admonishes His followers to imitate this on Earth. There have been follow on relations, in particular Mormonism. That is a unique form of madness IMO.

I've studied Mormonism seriously, and I know Mormons personally since I reside in Utah. The theology of Mormonism is totally ridiculous, but Mormons, by and large, are among the nicest human beings I have ever met.  AG

In many ways I prefer the ideas of Taoism and Buddhism, which like monotheism reduced many gods to one or a few, but go an additional step further and have the 0-god. The Tao has features parallel to the quantum vacuum, and with what I am working with entanglement and gauge theory I think energy and entanglement form a wholeness that is similar to the "Qi." With these at least there is no Orwellian terror being in the sky we have to fall to our knees before.

I've also studied Buddhism seriously, and at its core it's just another form of this-world denialism, which I find offensive. For Buddhists, the physical world is an illusion (which should find praise with Bruno!). And the Qi energy? Another defacto ether theory, which physics is schizophrenic about --in the sense that it keeps arising again and again in different forms, the latest being a scalar field, aka the Higgs field. AG

The denial of realism is not really so much about saying reality does not exist, but that it is not possible to identify what is reality in a completely unambiguous way. Taoism is the dialectic opposite, nothingness  or the void are not definable. If you think about it, if nothingness exists then its existence denies it is not nothing, and if nothingness does not exist then there must be somethingness. Then the rub is that what it means to have existential aspect is also not unambiguously definable. If you think about it quantum mechanics has a similar quality to it.

The parallel with the Qi is with quantum entanglement that is nonlocal and is dual to interaction and energy. This is analogous to the idea of Qi.

LC

[Bruno Marchal]

On 28 Apr 2020, at 16:50, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 11:20:37 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 27 Apr 2020, at 14:36, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 4:14:45 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

> On 23 Apr 2020, at 06:53, Samiya Illias <samiya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If the All-Mighty God accepts me in The Kingdom of The Hereafter, I trust He will explain to us our roles, responsibilities, perks and privileges.

OK.

No it is not OK. Religion is based on the idea that truth is handed down by a divine authority.

It comes from the insight of the greeks that Truth is an authority we better should not hide, even if we cannot define it.

It is related to the fact that you cannot put your hand in the fire, and relativise what is happening. 

Theology and science are in dialectic opposition. Monotheistic religions present a God that is really nothing more than a mystical form of Orwell's Big Brother.

Only due to the stealing of theology by “politics”. Monotheism is what made the zoroastrian civilised, and close to democracy, at the time of the Great Cyrus. That was also a time of breakthrough in science and technology; with amazing technic to transport water, notably.

You might confuse “theology” (the greek science, at the origin of mathematics and physics, seen as alternative for the ontology fundamental reality) and popular religion transformed into authoritative argument, which comes from the institutionalisation of religion, and brings dogma and Big Brother (note that this one is brought by the materialist religion too, like in the USSR).

The whole business amounts to various enormous scams that control people. Christianity was the first, where the Hebrew God was co-opted into a Hellenic form with ideas of that God having been a man who sacrificed Himself to Himself, was resurrected to meet Himself in heaven, all because the first humans were deceived by a talking snake.

Which has, of course, nothing to do with theology as a science. You will not find mention of talking snake in Pythagorus, Plato, nor Plotinus’ Ennead or Proclus” treatise in Theology. 

If that is not a mythic narrative I do not know what is.

Science/religion when popular and primitive are based on some myth, always, from Jesus to the Big-Bang. Of course, when doing science we only propose theories and mean of verification. We never know the truth, but we can evaluate the plausibility, by counting the evidence, statistical analysis, etc. 

Islam is a bit more straightforward, but Allah as presented in much of the Koran is an infinite mad defect, a sort of infinitely projected Hitler, who is ripe to met out vengeance and eternal punishment, and admonishes His followers to imitate this on Earth. There have been follow on relations, in particular Mormonism. That is a unique form of madness IMO.

In many ways I prefer the ideas of Taoism and Buddhism, which like monotheism reduced many gods to one or a few, but go an additional step further and have the 0-god.

Yes. I analyse this with some details in my paper: 

Marchal B. The East, the West and the Universal Machine, Progress in Biophysics and Molecular Biology, 2017, Vol. 131, pp. 251-260.

That paper is a sequel to my two other papers(*)

The Tao has features parallel to the quantum vacuum, and with what I am working with entanglement and gauge theory I think energy and entanglement form a wholeness that is similar to the "Qi.”

I am skeptical. Some analogies are possible, but with mechanism, energy and entanglement comes from the universal machine modes of self-reference, in a manner provably equivalent to Plotinus, once we use the lexicon

The One  = Arithmetical truth

The Noùs = provability

The soul = conjunction of provability with truth

Intelligible Matter = conjunction of provability with consistency (= physics, quanta)

Sensible Matter = conjunction of provability, consistency and truth (= physics, qualia).

Gödel and Löb, and Solovay theorem makes this technically transparent, and we get an intuitionist logic for the “knower” (the soul) and quantum logic for Matter, and a sort of quantum intuitionist  logic for the sensible realm.

With these at least there is no Orwellian terror being in the sky we have to fall to our knees before.

That idea does not belong to theology, but to dogmatic pseudo-theology invented by Tyran to make people obeying to them.

They have used science as well, but it is easier to use the fundamental science, although in the USSR they have used biology for the same purpose. Of course they got “fake biology”. Similarly, when theology brings dogma, it is no more science, and should not even be considered at all (except in sociology of “pseudo”-religion).

If we humans were really the intelligent life form we pretend to be we would have gotten rid of the monotheistic beliefs at least a century ago.

If the theology was not have been stolen by politics, we would have discovered the universal machine before 1000, and quantum physics before the 12th centenary, I think this is plausible., and we would already been on Mars, and there would be no covid-19 (or no so bad immune reaction to it, as we would not have repeated the mistake of bringing health in the hand of the politics, a toy version of the 529 big error).

Read Plotinus, or Proclus, or study directly the G/G* theology of the universal machine. Put the bible on your shell in such a way you forget its existence, as this is to theology what the horoscope is to astrophysics.

The problem of those who separated religion/theology from science is that they make science into a sort of religion, and they believe things like “scientist knows that there is physical universe” which is a nonsense. Many people claiming that they have no religion today believes without knowing that they are just espousing Aristotle Theology: the belief that God is basically the physical reality. But there are no evidence at all for this. It is a confusion between evidence for laws about measurable numbers relation, and evidence for doing a physical ontological commitment. It is a confusion between physics and metaphysics.

Bruno

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<Qi.png>

[Bruno Marchal]

On 28 Apr 2020, at 17:00, Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Philip Benjamin]

What logically coherent, empirically evident, experientially valid, answer can science or the WAMP

What is WAMP?

give to the questions of aseity, causality, origin, meaning, morals, eschaton?

Science is not something answering any question, except through testable hypothesis, which scientist takes as being always potentially refuted.

Now, if you take the mechanist hypothesis into account, we can say that Aristotle natural cause does not make sense, and eventually we are back to Plato and Pythagorus. What exists are the numbers, and all the causalities are explained by modalities of the shape [](p -> q), with many intensional variant of Gödel’s provability predicate for the box “[]”.

The mode []p & <>p with p partially computable (sigma_1) gives quantum logic. I found this (and the many histories interpretation) before knowing that the physicists were already there, so I take this as a confirmation of mechanism (not a proof of course). Physicalism is already refuted by Nature, when we take consciousness in the picture (which is why serious cmaterialist try to eliminate consciousness in a way or another). With mechanism, it only the Aristotelian primary matter (energy, time, space, etc.) which is eliminated, but whose appearance are completely explained in arithmetic with mechanism, up to testability.

Bruno

Philip Benjamin

 

From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Lawrence Crowell
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 9:51 AM
To: Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality

 

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 11:20:37 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

 

On 27 Apr 2020, at 14:36, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 4:14:45 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

> On 23 Apr 2020, at 06:53, Samiya Illias <samiya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If the All-Mighty God accepts me in The Kingdom of The Hereafter, I trust He will explain to us our roles, responsibilities, perks and privileges.

OK.

 

No it is not OK. Religion is based on the idea that truth is handed down by a divine authority.

--
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[Bruno Marchal]

On 29 Apr 2020, at 01:23, spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Thanks Bruno. Plotinus and Plato could easily have  been absolutely accurate, and maybe we may or but in my way of thinking, maybe not for quite a while. Having said this, if you go for my latching on to a ridiculous conjecture (driven surely by emotionalism!), I guess that given enormous time, plus vacuum flux, a mind out of nowhere sprang up ex-nihilo, up pops a mind with perhaps false memories and dreams us all up (physically). Maybe...maybe.... Do I win any prizes if I'm right? Perhaps El Gordo or the Irish Sweepstakes? 

Read Davus book on computability, or ask me any question. But if you are open to belief that 2+2 = 4, without adding metaphysics to it, you will eventually understand that *all* computations are realised in arithmetic, and that the physical reality has to be retrieved from a statistic on all those computations. This makes mechanism testable, and as we go near quantum mechanics, already partially tested, and tested as better than any materialist explanation, which needs non-mechanism, which today is highly speculative (no evidence at all after QM). If classical mechanics was confirmed, that would have been a giant evidence that mechanism is wrong (in the cognitive science), but as everyone known, classical mechanics is false (just a good approximation for some class of phenomena).

Once people understand the mathematical definition of what is a computation (as opposed to one of its physical implementation), it is obvious that the notion of “physical universe” is akin to the fake pseudo-religious notion of God.

It is OK to believe in a physical universe, as it is OK to bet we are locally machine, but it is not OK (it is inconsistent) to believe in both Physicalism and Mechanism. With mechanism, physics is entirely reduced to a theory of consciousness, or just of consistency (<>t) and its intensional mode.

Bruno

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 29 Apr 2020, at 16:12, Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:

No, “the homogeneity of the CMB” tells NOTHING about causality, origin, meaning, morals, eschaton or infinite regress. It simply believes that CNB is homogeneous, that is all. What is MORE rational? Life-less CMB is aseitous and produce life? Or, INTELLIGENT LIFE is aseitous and create both dead matter, CMB and life? These issues are beyond the scope of any true Science which begins with observation and then proceed to experimentation, analysis and inferences.   

That is right. Observation can refute a theory, but the theory is in our head, and with mechanism: it is in the head of all universal number, and it is a purely mathematical problem to extract it from there, and then we can compare to nature to refute (locally) the theory, but thanks to QM, mechanism is totally vindicated, up to now.

Bruno

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[Bruno Marchal]

It makes sense, but only in anon mechanist theory of mind, so you need to reject Descartes , but also Darwin, and most of molecular biology, or add magical things to them.

So I would say that this is highly speculative. The tao itself makes more sense with mechanism, Imo. See my papers on this.

Most application of physics to theology lacks rigorous in theology (which is a tradition since long, in fact, since 1500 years in Occident).

Bruno



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[Bruno Marchal]

On 30 Apr 2020, at 02:27, spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I can see the platonism of things or imagine that I can.I am profoundly convinced also (another topic) that math is truly a gift, due to the wiring of neurons. To your point my idea of Ludwig Boltzmann's simply seems logical, or the simplest explanation for things as they appear to us now. I am correct in this proposal?

All Boltzùan brain are implemented and executed in arithmetic, but for technical reason, they do not change the measure on all computations. 

You can easily write a program which generates all programs, and executes them piece by piece (by dovetailing), it will run all Boltzman brain, but the first person indeterminacy is on your infinitely many representations. The Botzmann brain have a measure zero there, normally.

A good thing, because the Boltzmann brain explains nothing, actually, it introduces noise, if not “white rabbits”. By taking “all” computations, we get rid of the white rabbit by a generalisation of Feynman phase randomisation. 

I should be the last person on this mailing list, because where's my mathematical proofs? Yes to Godel, Turing, Post, to Pauli, Dirac, and to so many more. How, I see the cosmos (and who cares how I see the cosmos) is not only as a computation, but as a computation that generated physical reality.

With mechanism, unless your consciousness supervene on the whole observable and non observable physical universe, the physical universe is not brought by a computation, but by an infinity of them. That follows fro the invariance of the first person experience explained in the first six step of the Universal Dovetailer Argument. Ask any question.

Beyond, this I guess that this is the 2nd (or more!)rendition of the running of software, the program(s) have started, letting the errors pile up (the failings of nature around us),

I am aware that this is shocking for many people (in our current Aristotelian era), but there is no Nature around us existing ontologically. Nature is a local first person plural appearance. It is NOT like a video game, it is more like an infinity of video games.

though things seem to work well despite this. Finally, to be run when the programmer gets things (for want of a better word) perfected. So am I advocating Nietzsche's Eternal Return? No, that'd also be an error, as in wasteful and redundant,  but the idea of God as programmer, courtesy, Juergen Schmidhuber, sort of blends in. 

The tiny partially computable part of arithmetic is enough. No need to anthropomorphise elementary arithmetic. No one explains to a kid that 2+2=4 because God decided this, although with mechanism, it is reasonable way to talk, but then the God of the neoplatonist is not a creator, still less a programmer. It just happens that some number relation areTuring universal, and run some computations.

Some nights I care and others I don't because of my dear, old, amygdala, and how life is treating me? Hopefully you are doing well, Bruno.

Thanks spudboy. I do fine, I give my course at a distance, and it is more work, also for the students who are panicking a bit. I hope you are well too. 

That the universal dovetailing (the running of all programs) exist in arithmetic is not a disputable fact. This is known since the 1930s.  It is not part of my contribution. It is important to understand this, because it makes obvious that there has never been any evidence of an ontological physical universe. That was obvious for those who are already persuaded by the antic dream argument, but it is nice because the discovery of the universal machine in arithmetic makes this dream argument into a rigorous mathematical proof.

I am not defending any theory, but I can explain in detail why (weak) Mechanism is incompatible with (weak) materialism.

Agnostic atheists have no problem with that, but gnostic-atheist (believer in some primary matter or in physicalism) are rather piss-of by this, apparently. But they are not scientist, and confuse opinion and science in general.

Bruno

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[Bruno Marchal]

Monotheism is just the popular version of monism. Greek theological monism is what makes them invent mathematics and physics as alternate metaphysics. The original question of the greek was about the existence of primarily physical universe (which is mainly Aristotle theology). The god of greek platonic theology is just Truth. It exist by definition for any researchers.

About radical islamism, it should be obvious those are unbeliever, and in fact, when you read their doctrine, like the chart of the Hamas, it is just nazism. The Palestinian movement seems to be invented by Himmler and Al Husseini, and the big European and American mistake is to have let nazism proliferate in the Middle East. Palestine and Israel is just different name for the same country, and the Middle-east conflict is just the second war (against nazi). Radical Islamism is actually graver than Nazism, as they add the christians in their list of enemies, and also the feminist women.

Palestinian homosexuals, or atheists, or apostat are all dead or … refugees in Israel, which is the only country in the Middle-East where Muslims can say what they think.

I consider myself as an expert in the domain of lies, I collect them, and the domain of Israel is the only domain where the lies are more numerous in the Media that in the domain of Health, and that means something. I have written a paper showing that the technic of lies were basically the same in the Turkish genocide of Armenians, in the genocide of Tutsis in Rwanda, and … on Hemp. 

Those problem are not theological. It is just that that political manipulation is  made easy when we abandon science to any form of dogmatic pseudo-thinking, whatever the domain is chosen for this.

Bruno

LC

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 30 Apr 2020, at 05:05, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 8:50:38 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 11:20:37 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 27 Apr 2020, at 14:36, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 4:14:45 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

> On 23 Apr 2020, at 06:53, Samiya Illias <samiya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If the All-Mighty God accepts me in The Kingdom of The Hereafter, I trust He will explain to us our roles, responsibilities, perks and privileges.

OK.

No it is not OK. Religion is based on the idea that truth is handed down by a divine authority.

It comes from the insight of the greeks that Truth is an authority we better should not hide, even if we cannot define it.

It is related to the fact that you cannot put your hand in the fire, and relativise what is happening. 

Theology and science are in dialectic opposition. Monotheistic religions present a God that is really nothing more than a mystical form of Orwell's Big Brother. The whole business amounts to various enormous scams that control people. Christianity was the first, where the Hebrew God was co-opted into a Hellenic form with ideas of that God having been a man who sacrificed Himself to Himself, was resurrected to meet Himself in heaven, all because the first humans were deceived by a talking snake. If that is not a mythic narrative I do not know what is. Islam is a bit more straightforward, but Allah as presented in much of the Koran is an infinite mad defect, a sort of infinitely projected Hitler, who is ripe to met out vengeance and eternal punishment, and admonishes His followers to imitate this on Earth. There have been follow on relations, in particular Mormonism. That is a unique form of madness IMO.

I've studied Mormonism seriously, and I know Mormons personally since I reside in Utah. The theology of Mormonism is totally ridiculous, but Mormons, by and large, are among the nicest human beings I have ever met.  AG

In many ways I prefer the ideas of Taoism and Buddhism, which like monotheism reduced many gods to one or a few, but go an additional step further and have the 0-god. The Tao has features parallel to the quantum vacuum, and with what I am working with entanglement and gauge theory I think energy and entanglement form a wholeness that is similar to the "Qi." With these at least there is no Orwellian terror being in the sky we have to fall to our knees before.

I've also studied Buddhism seriously, and at its core it's just another form of this-world denialism, which I find offensive. For Buddhists, the physical world is an illusion (which should find praise with Bruno!).

All I say is that physicalism (not physics) is wrong once we believe in, say, darwinism.

It is not this-world denialism, it is only this-world-as-primary-ontological which is questioned. 

I keep my personal opinion for myself, and it has always fluctuated, but, yes, I consider that there are far more evidences in favour of mechanism than in favour for a primitively physical universe.

The main evidence is quantum mechanics, whose qualitative (many world/histories), and its more quantitative modal aspect (quantum logic) has been derived (by myself) a long time before I knew anything about the conceptual problem of quantum mechanics. 

And the Qi energy? Another defacto ether theory, which physics is schizophrenic about --in the sense that it keeps arising again and again in different forms, the latest being a scalar field, aka the Higgs field. AG

Are you taking about the taoist QI, or Quantum Information?

Bruno

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[Philip Benjamin]

[Bruno ] What is WAMP?

[Philip Benjamin] Definition of WAMP  

 

Definition of WAMP. The self-righteous, grubering, intolerant WAMP-the-Ingrate = Western Acade-Media Paganism (parody of WASP). Academedia (acade-media): The monstrous double headed hybrid of a small minority of all academics including seminarians and a large majority of all media including the Hollywood, with no-question-asked Marxist-like authoritarianism as their modus operandi. Based on the works of Rabbi Daniel Lapin, Ben Stein, Victor Mordecai, ex-Marxist David Horowitz

     

    When decoupled at death the bio dark-matter body will be relatively at a negative energy state by -E = mC^2 where m is the dead body mass. That will be the magnitude of the threshold external energy needed to raise the bio dark matter body to any functional state (Physical resurrection for example). In an early termination of pregnancy in humans, a durable and precocial bio dark-matter twin, co-created at the moment of conception, can survive the altricial light-matter twin.

Adapted from "Ten Implications of Bio Dark-Matter Chemistry"(ResearchGate) and "Spiritual  Body or Physical Spirit" Sunbury Press, by Philip Benjamin PhD MSc MA https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282154962_Bio_dark-Matter_Chemistry_Implications https://www.researchgate.net/post/Is_spirit_our_energy_Is_spirit_dark_energy

A Caveat: WAMP is no match for Jihadism (≠ Jihad) which brutalized India for one thousand years, Spain and other European nations for 300-800 years, all of Middle East, a chunk of East Europe and inhumanly vanquished the Christian Byzantines etc. Had it not been for the British Empire (the vastest, greatest, mightiest, noblest ever--not perfect), the whole world would have been under Jihadism by now and the self-righteous grubering WAMP-the-Ingrate would never ever have seen the light of day.  

Evidentialist

Philip Benjamin

Upon decoupling, the unenergized (unregenerated), non-entropic bio dark-matter bodies co-created at the moment of conception will be lost in their abodes of the dark-matter realms (black holes), by their own willful choice. Adapted from https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282154962_Bio_dark-Matter_Chemistry_Implications https://www.researchgate.net/post/Is_spirit_our_energy_Is_spirit_dark_energy

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 6:09:48 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 28 Apr 2020, at 16:50, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

The Tao has features parallel to the quantum vacuum, and with what I am working with entanglement and gauge theory I think energy and entanglement form a wholeness that is similar to the "Qi.”

I am skeptical. Some analogies are possible, but with mechanism, energy and entanglement comes from the universal machine modes of self-reference, in a manner provably equivalent to Plotinus, once we use the lexicon

The One  = Arithmetical truth

The Noùs = provability

The soul = conjunction of provability with truth

Intelligible Matter = conjunction of provability with consistency (= physics, quanta)

Sensible Matter = conjunction of provability, consistency and truth (= physics, qualia).

Gödel and Löb, and Solovay theorem makes this technically transparent, and we get an intuitionist logic for the “knower” (the soul) and quantum logic for Matter, and a sort of quantum intuitionist  logic for the sensible realm.

This is where I have big departures. I tend not to see these sorts of mystical connections with mathematics. I can see some parallels with things, but I don't see mathematical proofs as somehow soulness.

LC

 

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<Qi.png>

[Bruno Marchal]

On 30 Apr 2020, at 15:26, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 6:09:48 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 28 Apr 2020, at 16:50, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

The Tao has features parallel to the quantum vacuum, and with what I am working with entanglement and gauge theory I think energy and entanglement form a wholeness that is similar to the "Qi.”

I am skeptical. Some analogies are possible, but with mechanism, energy and entanglement comes from the universal machine modes of self-reference, in a manner provably equivalent to Plotinus, once we use the lexicon

The One  = Arithmetical truth

The Noùs = provability

The soul = conjunction of provability with truth

Intelligible Matter = conjunction of provability with consistency (= physics, quanta)

Sensible Matter = conjunction of provability, consistency and truth (= physics, qualia).

Gödel and Löb, and Solovay theorem makes this technically transparent, and we get an intuitionist logic for the “knower” (the soul) and quantum logic for Matter, and a sort of quantum intuitionist  logic for the sensible realm.

This is where I have big departures. I tend not to see these sorts of mystical connections with mathematics.

Those are facts which have been proven, in the frame of the Digital Mechanist hypothesis, using the most stander definition of the greek and/or explained through thought experiment. 

The confusion is that the use of primary matter is the invalid speculation, when we assume that the body does not use magic (mechanism).

I can see some parallels with things, but I don't see mathematical proofs as somehow soulness.

I say that a machine believes some proposition p when she asserts p.

Then I limit myself to machine whose beliefs are arithmetically sound, like RA, but having enough induction axioms, like PA, ZF, etc. They are all Löbian, and so they obey to the logic G* and G.

Then I use Theatetus definition of knowledge/ A machine knows p when she asserts p, and p is true. Socrates refute this definition, but his refutation is itself refuted by the incompleteness theorem, mainly thanks to the fact that

G* proves []p <-> ([]p & p), but G does not prove this, making the definition by theaetetus senseful, and indeed, this leads to a (modal) theory of knowledge, with a transparent arithmetical interpretation, which associate an intuitionist knower to such machine, and that is what I call the soul in the lexicon translating Plotinus in arithmetic.

So a mathematical proof is importantly and typically NOT related to soulless. What is related to soulless is the conjunction of proof and truth. This makes also the soul or first person becoming something:

True 

Non Provable,

Non defnable, yet

Knowable directly (experienceable)

Indubitable (this require Löbianity, G*)

+ of course the fact that it is invariant for a finite mechanical and digital functional substitution at *some* level of description.

The advantage is that the G (proof) G* (truth) separation, makes possible to distinguish qualia and quanta. 

As the theory is testable, let us test it. I have not heard of another testable (and rather well tested) theory of consciousness.

That theory also explains completely why consciousness seems so much mysterious. G* - G illustrates that in between the rational and the irrational, there is a corona of accessible truth (by the machine) that the machine cannot justify. The Löbian machine can justify this, though. She can explain (already) why she cannot define truth, and why her consistency makes her impossible to prove the existence of a reality, or to prove its own consistency.

With Digital Mechanism, it should be clear that it is the belief in a ontological physical universe which becomes the highly speculative mystical speculation. 

Mechanism assumes Church-thesis, and the “yes doctor”, but the theory provided by the machine assumes only elementary arithmetic, and the “yes doctor” is just a meta-motivation. The real science is in the attempt to refute that theory. Newton dynamics does refute that theory, but quantum mechanics rather confirms it.

It is up to the believer in some primary matter, or some primitive physical theory to explains how that theory or primary matter select a (set of) computation(s) in arithmetic. But it seems obvious to me that this is impossible. Do you see that? I can explain more if you want.

Bruno

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[Brent Meeker]

On 4/30/2020 5:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> I consider myself as an expert in the domain of lies, I collect them,
> and the domain of Israel is the only domain where the lies are more
> numerous in the Media that in the domain of Health

You should include the domain of religion.  But that would be like a
collector of water going to the ocean.

Brent

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 30 Apr 2020, at 23:46, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 4/30/2020 5:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> I consider myself as an expert in the domain of lies, I collect them, and the domain of Israel is the only domain where the lies are more numerous in the Media that in the domain of Health
>
> You should include the domain of religion.

Thanks. Yes. I did not because I did it already all the time. But you are right, and the lies on Israel, and on health, are descendent of the lies on religion, after it has been institutionalised by Tyran.

> But that would be like a collector of water going to the ocean.

Not sure what you mean. It is only one simple lie: that theology cannot be done with Reason, Modesty, Observation, experiments, well with the scientific attitude and method.

That separation makes both science and religion into pseudo-science. That is why in my atheist university, when scientists (nominated for judging the “receivability" of my thesis) did not find any (big) mistake, they engage a materialist philosopher to make the thesis “irreceveibable" with only one justification “I am not convinced”. “Receivability" means before any private ou public defence. I have never met them. I would have preferred to be burned alive. That is still more respectful of person and ideas.

Atheist have made people believe all around me that they were just lacking a belief in God, but a bit before that defence some told me that some atheist were believer in Matter, and that they would never accept a thesis throwing any doubt on what was clearly for them a dogma.

As long as agnostic atheist are unable to see the dogma in their fellow the gnostic atheist, I will not been able to take their agnosticism seriously. As they says themselves, agnosticism is just the polite form of atheism, when genuine agnosticism is when we are aware that we don’t know, and that this is the motor of research.

Gnostic atheism, post modern relativism, are the shape of the new obscurantism in town those days, accompanied with the "shut up and calculate", if not “lie and bring money”.

Bruno


>
> Brent

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[Philip Benjamin]

[Philip Benjamin]

The WAMP (defined elsewhere below) has done it again with respect to the pandemic COVID-19. Here the observer (National Geographic) about New Zealand’s elimination of COVID-19 is completely devoid of reality and creates one’s own non-existent reality. That is typical of the WAMP and their captive audience of science challenged politicians, bureaucrats, journalists etc. The physicist Richard Feynman: “Nature does not know what you are looking at, and she behaves the way she is going to behave whether you bother to take down the data or not.”  From time immemorial the world had survived many pestilences by herd immunity. The West survived the Plague (Black Death), Spanish Flu (did not originate in Spain!) and Yellow Fever, without GIGO computer models of expert “pagans” with un-awakened, un-Augustinian consciousness! (https://www.midwestaugustinians.org/conversion-of-st-augustine). Then the tools available were only commonsense, herd immunity, change of weather (higher temperature) etc. What is useful to about 5 million people of New Zealand (equivalent to 0.06% of the total world population) is not applicable to the whole world.  

   Science is the pursuit of truth, not the truth itself. It is observation, experimentation, analysis, and inference. No science is perfect, biological sciences are the least precise and perfect. Unfortunately many politicians, bureaucrats and journalists have become worshippers of the goddess of science. “The word science has become their ‘Abracadabra’ incantation. An un-awakened pagan consciousness is an easy victim of scientism. The Western Civilization is (rather was) primarily Augustinian (who was once a Phoenician profligate and immoral pagan (Pan-Gaia-n, Mother Earth devotee) with un-awakened consciousness). America in particular is the product of “Two Great Awakenings” which are both historic and historical. Child prodigy Jonathan Edwards, founder of Princeton University,  was a leader of the first Awakening. Tao, TM. Yoga, spirit-guides, witchcraft, occultism, Freudian foibles, Jungian sorceries, voodoo etc., etc. have nothing to do with such awakenings of reptilian, kundalini, raw, “dead”, pagan consciousness into non-pagan “quickened” consciousness. The difference between the two is clearly manifested / observed in the consciousness of Tao physicist Niels Bohr and the Puritan physicist Michel Faraday. Bohr’s philosophy was shunned by the eminent Alfred Einstein whose  favorite scientist was Faraday.

Evidentialist

Philip Benjamin

       CC. Journalist Aaron Gulley.  Communication & Education Depts. NZ.

 

Definition of WAMP. The self-righteous, grubering, intolerant WAMP-the-Ingrate = Western Acade-Media Paganism (parody of WASP). Academedia (acade-media): The monstrous double headed hybrid of a small minority of all academics including seminarians and a large majority of all media including the Hollywood, with no-question-asked Marxist-like authoritarianism as their modus operandi. Based on the works of Rabbi Daniel Lapin, Ben Stein, Victor Mordecai, ex-Marxist David Horowitz

     

    When decoupled at death the bio dark-matter body will be relatively at a negative energy state by -E = mC^2 where m is the dead body mass. That will be the magnitude of the threshold external energy needed to raise the bio dark matter body to any functional state (Physical resurrection for example). In an early termination of pregnancy in humans, a durable and precocial bio dark-matter twin, co-created at the moment of conception, can survive the altricial light-matter twin.

Adapted from "Ten Implications of Bio Dark-Matter Chemistry"(ResearchGate) and "Spiritual  Body or Physical Spirit" Sunbury Press, by Philip Benjamin PhD MSc MA https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282154962_Bio_dark-Matter_Chemistry_Implications https://www.researchgate.net/post/Is_spirit_our_energy_Is_spirit_dark_energy

       

 

Aaron Gulley  National Geographic. 4-30-2020 https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/2020/04/what-new-zealand-did-right-in-battling-coronavirus/ 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/new-zealand-has-effectively-eliminated-coronavirus-heres-what-they-did-right/   “New Zealand has set an uncompromising, science-driven example. Though the country didn’t ban travel from China until February 3 (a day after the United States) and its trajectory of new cases looked out of control in mid-March, austerity measures seemingly have brought COVID-19 to heel.  New Zealand had set a course of eradicating COVID-19 from its shores, by cutting off the arrival of new cases and choking out existing ones with the restrictions. “We have the opportunity to do something no other country has achieved: elimination of the virus,” said Ardern at one of her daily briefings.

From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal

Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2020 6:29 AM
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality

On 29 Apr 2020, at 16:12, Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 

No, “the homogeneity of the CMB” tells NOTHING about causality, origin, meaning, morals, eschaton or infinite regress. It simply believes that CNB is homogeneous, that is all. What is MORE rational? Life-less CMB is aseitous and produce life? Or, INTELLIGENT LIFE is aseitous and create both dead matter, CMB and life? These issues are beyond the scope of any true Science which begins with observation and then proceed to experimentation, analysis and inferences.   

 

 

That is right. Observation can refute a theory, but the theory is in our head, and with mechanism: it is in the head of all universal number, and it is a purely mathematical problem to extract it from there, and then we can compare to nature to refute (locally) the theory, but thanks to QM, mechanism is totally vindicated, up to now.

 

Bruno

 

 

 

Philip Benjamin.

 

From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Lawrence Crowell
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 8:36 PM
To: Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality

 

On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 10:00:35 AM UTC-5, medinuclear wrote:

[Philip Benjamin]

What logically coherent, empirically evident, experientially valid, answer can science or the WAMP give to the questions of aseity, causality, origin, meaning, morals, eschaton?

Philip Benjamin

 

It had some impact on causality and origin. The CMB is a remnant of big bang, which has some contact with origins. The homogeneity of the CMB tells us something about how in a primordial setting this was all in causal contact.  The other 4 things are of course off the science chart.

 

LC

 

 

From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Lawrence Crowell
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 9:51 AM
To: Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality

 

No it is not OK. Religion is based on the idea that truth is handed down by a divine authority.

--

.

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Friday, May 1, 2020 at 10:15:38 AM UTC-5, medinuclear wrote:

[Philip Benjamin]

The WAMP

I thought the other day this WAMP was WMAP with a spelling error. WMAP was a CMB measurement spacecraft. Most of what is below is rather silly IMO.

LC

[Bruno Marchal]

On 1 May 2020, at 17:15, Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Philip Benjamin]

The WAMP (defined elsewhere below) has done it again with respect to the pandemic COVID-19. Here the observer (National Geographic) about New Zealand’s elimination of COVID-19 is completely devoid of reality and creates one’s own non-existent reality. That is typical of the WAMP and their captive audience of science challenged politicians, bureaucrats, journalists etc. The physicist Richard Feynman: “Nature does not know what you are looking at, and she behaves the way she is going to behave whether you bother to take down the data or not.”

OK, with “you” = a human. It is less obvious with “you” = a universal number, living in arithmetic (with or without oracles).

 From time immemorial the world had survived many pestilences by herd immunity. The West survived the Plague (Black Death), Spanish Flu (did not originate in Spain!) and Yellow Fever, without GIGO computer models of expert “pagans” with un-awakened, un-Augustinian consciousness! (https://www.midwestaugustinians.org/conversion-of-st-augustine).

I am not sure a computer can really avoid this ...

Then the tools available were only commonsense, herd immunity, change of weather (higher temperature) etc. What is useful to about 5 million people of New Zealand (equivalent to 0.06% of the total world population) is not applicable to the whole world.  

   Science is the pursuit of truth, not the truth itself.

OK. Sure!

It is observation, experimentation, analysis, and inference. No science is perfect, biological sciences are the least precise and perfect. Unfortunately many politicians, bureaucrats and journalists have become worshippers of the goddess of science.

That is what we call scientism. It is of course the opposite of science, which is mainly modesty (and not condescendent gfke modesty, but the modesty raised by genuine doubt and the spirit of research).

“The word science has become their ‘Abracadabra’ incantation. An un-awakened pagan consciousness is an easy victim of scientism.

OK.

The Western Civilization is (rather was) primarily Augustinian (who was once a Phoenician profligate and immoral pagan (Pan-Gaia-n, Mother Earth devotee) with un-awakened consciousness). America in particular is the product of “Two Great Awakenings” which are both historic and historical. Child prodigy Jonathan Edwards, founder of Princeton University,  was a leader of the first Awakening. Tao, TM. Yoga, spirit-guides, witchcraft, occultism, Freudian foibles, Jungian sorceries, voodoo etc., etc. have nothing to do with such awakenings of reptilian, kundalini, raw, “dead”, pagan consciousness into non-pagan “quickened” consciousness. The difference between the two is clearly manifested / observed in the consciousness of Tao physicist Niels Bohr and the Puritan physicist Michel Faraday. Bohr’s philosophy was shunned by the eminent Alfred Einstein whose  favorite scientist was Faraday.

That is a bit unclear to me. At least Einstein knew that Materialism, or the belief in a physical universe is a religious, mystical sort of belief.

With mechanism, we can formulate the mind-bod problem into a testable theory, so let continue the testing, and let us do philosophy/metaphysics/theology (chose you favorite name for the fundamental science) with the scientific attitude.

Bruno

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[Philip Benjamin]

 

everyth...@googlegroups.com Saturday, May 2, 2020 8:26 AM Subject: Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality

[Bruno Marchal]

That [in red italics at the bottom] is a bit unclear to me. At least Einstein knew that Materialism, or the belief in a physical universe is a religious, mystical sort of belief. With mechanism, we can formulate the mind-bod problem into a testable theory, so let continue the testing, and let us do philosophy/metaphysics/theology (chose you favorite name for the fundamental science) with the scientific attitude. Bruno

[Philip Benjamin]

I recognize the difficulty here. The general tendency of the “educated” West is to treat all and everything alike, but that is far from the reality of things as they are, especially between the East and West as exemplified by the ballad of Rudyard Kipling. Perhaps, Einstein had his own mystical notions of reality, but that is distinctly different from Bohr’s Taoism. Yin-Yang has nothing to do with particle or wave. There was no need to change the de Broglie’s wave-likeness to Bohr’s waviness; the former is subject to an AS IF logic, the latter is a BOTH & fallacy. Furthermore. Bohr indulged in the circular reasoning of consciousness (of what?, of whose?) collapsing wavefunction (of what?, electrons?, nucleons?) which collapse then creates consciousness. He had already assigned the electrons to various predetermined “stationary orbits” or “energy levels”. They are all already collapsed everywhere, including the slits, into rock solid energy levels.

    Let me jump here to Augustine, the architect of Western civilization, completely ignored or detested by the WAMP. He was a Phoenician pagan profligate. His “consciousness” was instantly transformed by an event caused by “accidental” singing of children in a park (https://www.midwestaugustinians.org/conversion-of-st-augustine), most likely unknown to Bohr who was also an indirect or incidental beneficiary of that “quickening”. How can any science account for that?

    Augustine bridged the gap between the wisdom of Athens (classical antiquity) with the Revelations of Jerusalem (Hebrew knowledge) and with the glory of Rome (City of God, 413–426/427, was written when the empire was under attack by Germanic pagan tribes with un-awakened consciousness,...). He did it by “baptizing” Platonic metaphysics, epistemology and ideas of “forms”, into the Adonai (plural) YHWH (singular) Elohim (uni-plural) as a source of absolute goodness and truth. If it were not so, Western science could never have originated or developed. Bohr probably would have been practicing Lotus Pose of meditation.     

Questions of aseity, infinite regress, origin, morals, meaning, eschaton etc. are not within the scope of any science. For Augustine and the West (not the WAMP) the buck stopped at Adonai (plural) YHWH (singular) Elohim (uni-plural), not some nebulous Maya, or Moksha or Nirvana from which nobody ever returned to tell the truth!!  

Philip Benjamin

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 No it is not OK. Religion is based on the idea that truth is handed down by a divine authority.  LC

.

 

--
 

[Bruno Marchal]

On 2 May 2020, at 17:33, Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 

everyth...@googlegroups.com Saturday, May 2, 2020 8:26 AM Subject: Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality 

[Bruno Marchal]

That [in red italics at the bottom] is a bit unclear to me. At least Einstein knew that Materialism, or the belief in a physical universe is a religious, mystical sort of belief. With mechanism, we can formulate the mind-bod problem into a testable theory, so let continue the testing, and let us do philosophy/metaphysics/theology (chose you favorite name for the fundamental science) with the scientific attitude. Bruno

[Philip Benjamin]

I recognize the difficulty here. The general tendency of the “educated” West is to treat all and everything alike, but that is far from the reality of things as they are, especially between the East and West as exemplified by the ballad of Rudyard Kipling. Perhaps, Einstein had his own mystical notions of reality,

Yes. He made that clear in some of his philosophical writing. He remained Aristotelian, but with the awareness that this is already a mystical insight. Eventually, he understood that he could be wrong on this during his late discussion with Gödel (who was not a naturalist).

but that is distinctly different from Bohr’s Taoism.

My understanding of Bohr is that he was a dualist, even ready to believe in a duality classical/quantum, related to a duality micro/macro, if not mind/matter.

Yin-Yang has nothing to do with particle or wave. There was no need to change the de Broglie’s wave-likenessto Bohr’s waviness; the former is subject to an AS IF logic, the latter is a BOTH & fallacy. Furthermore. Bohr indulged in the circular reasoning of consciousness (of what?, of whose?) collapsing wavefunction (of what?, electrons?, nucleons?) which collapse then creates consciousness. He had already assigned the electrons to various predetermined “stationary orbits” or “energy levels”. They are all already collapsed everywhere, including the slits, into rock solidenergy levels. 

Which makes you assertion of Bohr being a taoist even more intriguing. Taoism is usually considered as a monism.

    Let me jump here to Augustine, the architect of Western civilization, completely ignored or detested by the WAMP. He was a Phoenician pagan profligate.

He was a christian reader of Plotinus. He is the one saving Plato in the christian tradition. I have a rather high opinion, if we abstract from its antisemitism (but that was common those days, if not nowadays).

His “consciousness” was instantly transformed by an event caused by “accidental” singing of children in a park (https://www.midwestaugustinians.org/conversion-of-st-augustine), most likelyunknown to Bohr who was also an indirect or incidental beneficiary of that “quickening”. How can any science account for that?

You might read my paper on the West and the East. Science predict a sort of experience of that kind (and many others) to all universal machine looking inward (in the sense of Gödel).

    Augustine bridged the gap between the wisdom of Athens (classical antiquity) with the Revelations of Jerusalem (Hebrew knowledge) and with the glory of Rome (City of God, 413–426/427, was written when the empire was under attack by Germanic pagan tribes with un-awakened consciousness,...). He did it by “baptizing” Platonic metaphysics, epistemology and ideas of “forms”, into the Adonai (plural) YHWH (singular) Elohim (uni-plural) as a source of absolute goodness and truth. If it were not so, Western science could never have originated or developed.

I tend to agree with this, but  have to continue the research. 

Bohr probably would have been practicing Lotus Pose of meditation.

To me, this applies perhaps better to Schroedinger, except that he uses the Hindu vocabulary.

    

Questions of aseity, infinite regress, origin, morals, meaning, eschaton etc. are not within the scope of any science.

I might disagree. Especially if you keep in mind that theology ws born as a science, before becoming an institionised oppression system, when separated from science for that purpose. 

But I do not believe in science per se, only in the scientific attitude, and this is only the skeptical doubting attitude, and the awareness we never known the truth as such. Science like intelligence is only the ability to say “oh! I was wrong”. 

For Augustine and the West (not the WAMP) the buck stopped at Adonai (plural) YHWH (singular) Elohim (uni-plural), not some nebulous Maya, or Moksha or Nirvana from which nobody ever returned to tell the truth!!

In the theology of the universal machine, like in Taoism, those who have the experience will never “tell the truth”, because it is simply beyond anything that we can describe, and attempt to do that can only lead to confusion if not lies. We can only encourage people to see by themselves, or to reason in the frame of some hypothesis.

Some plant can help, like Salvia divinorum, as it provides (with some luck) a rather special version of the Dream Argument, with a vengeance. It does not provide any revelation, but can shaken all certainties that some people can have in that domain. That is also why so many people dislike it a lot … With logic and mathematics, you need 30 years of hard work to get the same certainty-shaking …

I am not sure why you are so dismissing of Maya, Nirvana, especially that this seem to be human accessible state, even if we can say nothing about them.

Bruno

 

Philip Benjamin

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On 1 May 2020, at 17:15, Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Philip Benjamin]

The WAMP (defined elsewhere below) has done it again with respect to the pandemic COVID-19. Here the observer (National Geographic) about New Zealand’s elimination of COVID-19 is completely devoid of reality and creates one’s own non-existent reality. That is typical of the WAMP and their captive audience of science challenged politicians, bureaucrats, journalists etc. The physicist Richard Feynman: “Nature does not know what you are looking at, and she behaves the way she is going to behave whether you bother to take down the data or not.”

 

OK, with “you” = a human. It is less obvious with “you” = a universal number, living in arithmetic (with or without oracles).

 From time immemorial the world had survived many pestilences by herd immunity. The West survived the Plague (Black Death), Spanish Flu (did not originate in Spain!) and Yellow Fever, without GIGO computer models of expert “pagans” with un-awakened, un-Augustinian consciousness! (https://www.midwestaugustinians.org/conversion-of-st-augustine).

 

 

I am not sure a computer can really avoid this ...

Then the tools available were only commonsense, herd immunity, change of weather (higher temperature) etc. What is useful to about 5 million people of New Zealand (equivalent to 0.06% of the total world population) is not applicable to the whole world.  

   Science is the pursuit of truth, not the truth itself.

 

OK. Sure!

It is observation, experimentation, analysis, and inference. No science is perfect, biological sciences are the least precise and perfect. Unfortunately many politicians, bureaucrats and journalists have become worshippers of the goddess of science. 

 

That is what we call scientism. It is of course the opposite of science, which is mainly modesty (and not condescendent gfke modesty, but the modesty raised by genuine doubt and the spirit of research).

 

“The word science has become their ‘Abracadabra’ incantation. An un-awakened pagan consciousness is an easy victim of scientism.

OK.

The Western Civilization is (rather was) primarily Augustinian (who was once a Phoenician profligate and immoral pagan (Pan-Gaia-n, Mother Earth devotee) with un-awakened consciousness). America in particular is the product of “Two Great Awakenings” which are both historic and historical. Child prodigy Jonathan Edwards, founder of Princeton University,  was a leader of the first Awakening. Tao, TM. Yoga, spirit-guides, witchcraft, occultism, Freudian foibles, Jungian sorceries, voodoo etc., etc. have nothing to do with such awakenings of reptilian, kundalini, raw, “dead”, pagan consciousness into non-pagan “quickened” consciousness. The difference between the two is clearly manifested / observed in the consciousness of Tao physicist Niels Bohr and the Puritan physicist Michel Faraday. Bohr’s philosophy was shunned by the eminent Alfred Einstein whose  favorite scientist was Faraday.

 

That is a bit unclear to me. At least Einstein knew that Materialism, or the belief in a physical universe is a religious, mystical sort of belief. With mechanism, we can formulate the mind-bod problem into a testable theory, so let continue the testing, and let us do philosophy/metaphysics/theology (chose you favorite name for the fundamental science) with the scientific attitude.

 

Bruno

 

 

 

 

Evidentialist

Philip Benjamin

       CC. Journalist Aaron Gulley.  Communication & Education Depts. NZ.

 

Definition of WAMP. The self-righteous, grubering, intolerant WAMP-the-Ingrate = Western Acade-Media Paganism (parody of WASP). Academedia (acade-media): The monstrous double headed hybrid of a small minority of all academics including seminarians and a large majority of all media including the Hollywood, with no-question-asked Marxist-like authoritarianism as their modus operandi. Based on the works of Rabbi Daniel Lapin, Ben Stein, Victor Mordecai, ex-Marxist David Horowitz

     

    When decoupled at death the bio dark-matter body will be relatively at a negative energy state by -E = mC^2 where m is the dead body mass. That will be the magnitude of the threshold external energy needed to raise the bio dark matter body to any functional state (Physical resurrection for example). In an early termination of pregnancy in humans, a durable and precocial bio dark-matter twin, co-created at the moment of conception, can survive the altricial light-matter twin.

Adapted from "Ten Implications of Bio Dark-Matter Chemistry"(ResearchGate) and "Spiritual  Body or Physical Spirit" Sunbury Press, by Philip Benjamin PhD MSc MAhttps://www.researchgate.net/publication/282154962_Bio_dark-Matter_Chemistry_Implicationshttps://www.researchgate.net/post/Is_spirit_our_energy_Is_spirit_dark_energy

       

 

Aaron Gulley  National Geographic. 4-30-2020 https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/2020/04/what-new-zealand-did-right-in-battling-coronavirus/ 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/new-zealand-has-effectively-eliminated-coronavirus-heres-what-they-did-right/   “New Zealand has set an uncompromising, science-driven example. Though the country didn’t ban travel from China until February 3 (a day after the United States) and its trajectory of new cases looked out of control in mid-March, austerity measures seemingly have brought COVID-19 to heel.  New Zealand had set a course of eradicating COVID-19 from its shores, by cutting off the arrival of new cases and choking out existing ones with the restrictions. “We have the opportunity to do something no other country has achieved: elimination of the virus,” said Ardern at one of her daily briefings.

From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2020 6:29 AM
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality

 

 

On 29 Apr 2020, at 16:12, Philip Benjamin <medin...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 

No, “the homogeneity of the CMB” tells NOTHING about causality, origin, meaning, morals, eschaton or infinite regress. It simply believes that CNB is homogeneous, that is all. What is MORE rational? Life-less CMB is aseitousand produce life? Or, INTELLIGENT LIFE is aseitous and create both dead matter, CMB and life? These issues are beyond the scope of any true Science which begins with observation and then proceed to experimentation, analysis and inferences.   

 

 

That is right. Observation can refute a theory, but the theory is in our head, and with mechanism: it is in the head of all universal number, and it is a purely mathematical problem to extract it from there, and then we can compare to nature to refute (locally) the theory, but thanks to QM, mechanism is totally vindicated, up to now.

 

Bruno

 

 

 

Philip Benjamin.

 

From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Lawrence Crowell
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 8:36 PM
To: Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality

 

On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 10:00:35 AM UTC-5, medinuclear wrote:

[Philip Benjamin]

What logically coherent, empirically evident, experientially valid, answer can science or the WAMP give to the questions of aseity, causality, origin, meaning, morals, eschaton? 

Philip Benjamin

 

It had some impact on causality and origin. The CMB is a remnant of big bang, which has some contact with origins.The homogeneity of the CMB tells us something about how in a primordial setting this was all in causal contact.  The other 4 things are of course off the science chart.

LC  

From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <everyth...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Lawrence Crowell
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 9:51 AM
To: Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: The Observer & The Existence of Reality 

 No it is not OK. Religion is based on the idea that truth is handed down by a divine authority.  LC

.

 

-- 
 

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[Brent Meeker]

On 5/4/2020 4:12 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> I might disagree. Especially if you keep in mind that theology ws born
> as a science, before becoming an institionised oppression system, when
> separated from science for that purpose.

Yes, it was born as explanation for natural phenomena in terms of human
emotions, because human emotion was directly experienced and seemed to
need no explanation.  So when a storm was explained as the sky became
angry that seemed easy to believe and one had only to discern why the
sky was angry.  The priest or chief or your mother explained it was
because you didn't sacrifice a goat to him, or you disobeyed a rule, or
you didn't eat your spinach.  But there were many phenomena.  Monotheism
simplified the system and provided one-stop shopping...as soon as a few
wars and inquisitions settled which one God was the really real one.

Brent

[Lawrence Crowell]

Theology has nothing to do with science. There are what might be called pre-scientific thinking as a branch of philosophy. Science though came about from the ideas of Roger Bacon and were applied and firmed up by Galileo. Theology predates that by centuries. I would say Christian theology came about with Augustine in the early 5th century. It is reasonable to say that science emerged from philosophy combined with the practical arts such as metallurgy, glass making, tool making and so forth. There were some pre-scientists, Greeks such as a Democritus and medieval scholars such as Oresme and Grosseteste did some attempts at science, but they did not have the discipline with empiricism quite right. This was emerging as a branch of philosophy. Theology predated medieval pre-science by centuries.

LC

[Brent Meeker]

You're leaving out the pre-historic part.  Among primitive peoples, explanations are mixtures of supernatural agency, empirical knowledge, and magic.  Magic and empiricism gave rise to alchemy and attempts to control supernatural agents thru spells and incantations; which led eventually to astronomy and science.  I don't identify science only with mathematical reasoning.  The guy who learned to fletch arrows to  make them fly true was doing science.  So was they guy who found his crops grew better if he added manure.  So was the guy who learned the stars could predict how long until springtime.

Supernatural agency plus magic gave rise to shamans and priests and religion.  It gave comfort and control (c.f. The Grand Inquisitor).   It's telling that among the most primitive people the agents are natural phenomenon, like storms and volcanoes, or powerful animals, like bears and lions.  But as humans became dominant the agents became super men and women.

So I don't think of theology as pre-dating science.  I just think science and magic and religion were a single kind of thing which eventually separated into the threads we identify today.

Brent

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[Bruno Marchal]

> On 4 May 2020, at 23:00, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 5/4/2020 4:12 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> I might disagree. Especially if you keep in mind that theology ws born as a science, before becoming an institionised oppression system, when separated from science for that purpose.
>
> Yes, it was born as explanation for natural phenomena in terms of human emotions, because human emotion was directly experienced and seemed to need no explanation. So when a storm was explained as the sky became angry that seemed easy to believe and one had only to discern why the sky was angry.

That looks more the poplar religion, the myth, the mythologies, but that is were Plato begun to depart from, accepting only the rational emotion as a way to proceed.

> The priest or chief or your mother explained it was because you didn't sacrifice a goat to him, or you disobeyed a rule, or you didn't eat your spinach.

Yes, but the greek theologian knew better, even if from times to times some fall again in the superstition, or when some tried to attract the christians who were more and more numerous. Plotinus fought against this, but Proclus was open to some form of theurgy. I am with Alan watts on this: if the rest can blink, and does not take itself too much seriously ..; why not, as many have an impulse toward some community and children love Fairy Tale. Yet, at some point, we have to abandon the fairy tales in our fundamental research, and that is what (Neo)platonism did.

> But there were many phenomena. Monotheism simplified the system and provided one-stop shopping...as soon as a few wars and inquisitions settled which one God was the really real one.

Don’t remember the zoroastrien, nor the jews, to have impose monotheism to anyone. Nor the christian for the first five centuries. Inquisition, like radical islamism is just the use of institutionalise religion (in other word bs) to steal the money and the work of the people, and should not even be classified in religion, no more that Lyssenko genetics should be consider as part of biology.

To get rid of the superstition in religion, and of all fundamentalism and use of violence, we have to let theology/metaphsyics come back in science. Science is just a right: the right to be wrong and to change pur minds, in any domain.

Bruno



>
> Brent

>
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[Bruno Marchal]

On 5 May 2020, at 00:52, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

Theology has nothing to do with science.

I guess you mean that the particular implementation of christian theology is not science. I am rather OK with this.

By theology, I mean the neoplatonist theologies, which was born before Plato (btw). It is the science of what is real, and it was born from the doubt that the physical universe is ontologically real. It is the original doubt at the origin of science, but today, some scientist are still confusing science and the Aristotelian materialist ontology, which is rather normal as it is the enforced paradigm by all gnostic today (gnostic atheists included).

Science is doubt.

Fundamental science is fundamental doubt.

There are what might be called pre-scientific thinking as a branch of philosophy. Science though came about from the ideas of Roger Bacon and were applied and firmed up by Galileo. Theology predates that by centuries. I would say Christian theology came about with Augustine in the early 5th century.

Augustine is mainly neoplatonism with christian clothes.

That is a bit problematic, as it made the vocabulary of the neoplatonist close to the vocabulary of the christians. People rejecting the chrotsians doctrine can wrongly reject neoplatonism, as they see similar terms, and was a rather similar doctrine for the “augustinian”. Such neoplatonist Christianity will disappear after the Renaissance, with the quasi institutionalisation of Aristotle’s doctrine of primary matter. 

It is reasonable to say that science emerged from philosophy combined with the practical arts such as metallurgy, glass making, tool making and so forth. There were some pre-scientists, Greeks such as a Democritus and medieval scholars such as Oresme and Grosseteste did some attempts at science, but they did not have the discipline with empiricism quite right. This was emerging as a branch of philosophy. Theology predated medieval pre-science by centuries.

I think, through the Mechanist glasses, that the occidental science is born with Pythagorus, and died with Damascius. Today, many people believe that science is (weakly) materialist, but science is ontologically neutral, especially theology. We cannot claim the existence of any form of whole ins science, unless we make precise the theory and the means of verification, which is of course an heretic attitude for most “institutionalised theology/science”. To claim that a reality satisfying my beliefs exists violate mechanism + incompleteness, despite being “first person obvious”.

You light read my paper on the arithmetical interpretation of Plotinus, (it can be lifted to Augustne), and is vindicated by quantum mechanics, without any serious interpretation problem. Materialist believer hates this, for obvious reason.

Bruno

LC

On Monday, May 4, 2020 at 4:00:54 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:

On 5/4/2020 4:12 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> I might disagree. Especially if you keep in mind that theology ws born
> as a science, before becoming an institionised oppression system, when
> separated from science for that purpose.

Yes, it was born as explanation for natural phenomena in terms of human
emotions, because human emotion was directly experienced and seemed to
need no explanation.  So when a storm was explained as the sky became
angry that seemed easy to believe and one had only to discern why the
sky was angry.  The priest or chief or your mother explained it was
because you didn't sacrifice a goat to him, or you disobeyed a rule, or
you didn't eat your spinach.  But there were many phenomena.  Monotheism
simplified the system and provided one-stop shopping...as soon as a few
wars and inquisitions settled which one God was the really real one.

Brent

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 5 May 2020, at 01:32, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

You're leaving out the pre-historic part.  Among primitive peoples, explanations are mixtures of supernatural agency, empirical knowledge, and magic.  Magic and empiricism gave rise to alchemy and attempts to control supernatural agents thru spells and incantations; which led eventually to astronomy and science.  I don't identify science only with mathematical reasoning. 

Just to be sure: me neither.

Science is, before all things, observation, then followed by theories and doubts. 

Science is 

1) do you see what I see, followed by 

2) do you believe what I believe? The belief should be testable, and that jump on “1)” again, and again. 

Bruno

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