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Jason Resch

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Jul 21, 2020, 2:15:08 PM7/21/20
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I recently came across a paper by C. W. Rietdijk (who is perhaps most famous for using special relativity to prove the existence of a pre-determined, timeless, physical reality) in 1966.

As it turns out, he was active and publishing into his 90s, and in 2018 published:

"Four-dimensional reality continued. The implications of the block universe for the origin of matter, consciousness and a possible afterlife. The Einstein–Podolsky–Rosen paradox and its role in four dimensions"


I have found much of it to be fascinating and also in line with Bruno's theories. For example, some excerpts:
 

In the beginning, there was only truth, logic and their relation. No possible reality can do without them.

As we move from a 3D to a 4D theory of the Universe, several crucial questions need to be asked and answered. One of the most important of those questions concerns the creation of matter. In this section, we deal with this question and ask ourselves: Was matter actually created and how real is it?

In 4D a Big Bang is both inconceivable and irrelevant; a 4D universe is static—there are no changes in the time direction, therefore a transition from a Universal Void to the existence of matter cannot be. In both 3D and 4D, we must start from the irrefutable fact that “something” must have always been there, and we believe this to be the laws of nature. Voltaire’s argument about the existence of God (No watch without a watchmaker) begs the question who created the watchmaker, unless we assume that the laws of nature and the universe created themselves. It is our firm belief that the Pythagorean theorem needs not be created, nor the fact that the circumference of a circle is 3.14… times the diameter; the laws of nature and the collection of truths, values and their interrelations are primordial and have always existed. The fundamental stuff of the Universe in 4D consists of logic, mathematics and natural law, which of course exist and always have existed. It seems impossible to eliminate truths, values, etc., from the Universe. Note that in a deterministic conception, there is only one universe. This is the universe that we see; a static 4D universe which is not void.

The laws of nature—which have always existed—imply that intelligence has always existed and has always been present, with its correlates “experience” and “Aha-erlebnis,” perceivable to man here and now. It would seem that intelligence must have preceded everything, but in our search for the origin of matter, we cannot content ourselves by simply stating that (3D) matter is produced by intelligence. It is possible from the concept of completed intelligence (viz., intelligence including experience and the Aha-erlebnis), to create the deceptive suggestion of the existence of matter, experienced in a collective dream, dreamed by living, intelligent beings. This is what we consider to be consciousness. The recognition of the differences between patterns is an Aha-erlebnis.

The elementary particles as we know them form patterns, including very implicit or hidden patterns. The marker points and their patterns are the way Intelligence orders all that exists in the world, including feelings, thoughts, colors, sounds, etc. We hypothesize that the microparticles in the Universe form Universal patterns, or abstract, theoretical points that answer to the laws of nature, formulas and logical principles; the common coordinate points in the Universe. These points form a kind of skeleton of the grand pattern of the collective “dream;” a blueprint or map of the Universe.


Jason

Lawrence Crowell

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Jul 21, 2020, 7:38:08 PM7/21/20
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I calculated the time difference for the two observers moving, 128km/hr or about .036km/sec, that their relative time with Andromeda is less than a second. 

We have a problem with defining nothingness. Is there nothingness? Well this implies nothingness can exist, and if it exists is is not nothing. If nothingness does not exist then of course by definition there is something that exists. Of course this is a bit of a semantics game. but in QFT the closest we have to nothingness is the vacuum state, where this can transition into a new vacuum to produce particles.

LC

spudb...@aol.com

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Jul 21, 2020, 8:00:46 PM7/21/20
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Link, if you can, Jason, , the 2018 Rietdijk publication of the 4-D reality publication. Or simply direct me to where I can locate it, if you happen to know? The EPR thing seems intriguing to me (I'm a sucker for stuff like this!). Sounds very neo-Platonic to say the least. I presume you haven't provided the entire article, in this email, but a synopsis? Much thanks!

Mitch 


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Brent Meeker

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Jul 21, 2020, 8:11:09 PM7/21/20
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Besides, it's silly to say one "has" a plane of simultaneity and therefore everything in the past of that plane is fixed.  You might as well say one has a future and therefore everything one's life is past and therefore fixed.

Brent
"What is there?  Everything! So what isn't there?  Nothing!"
         --- Norm Levitt, after Quine
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Jason Resch

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Jul 21, 2020, 9:54:24 PM7/21/20
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How did you calculate it? The calculation should be (speed / c) * 2,500,000 years.

3 mph gives a 4 day difference.

Jason

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Jason Resch

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Jul 21, 2020, 10:01:15 PM7/21/20
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On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 7:11 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Besides, it's silly to say one "has" a plane of simultaneity and therefore everything in the past of that plane is fixed.  You might as well say one has a future and therefore everything one's life is past and therefore fixed.

Rietdijk and Hilary Putnam both argued relativity implies determinism and existence of all points in time. Minkowski, Einstein, Penrose all supported the idea. Feynman diagrams and his explanation of antimatter imply the existence of the future.

Strange, yes, it's not how we evolved to interpret reality. But I wouldn't say it's silly, I think it's an inescapable conclusion of the four dimensional reality implied by relativity.

Jason

 

Brent Meeker

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Jul 21, 2020, 10:47:39 PM7/21/20
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On 7/21/2020 7:01 PM, Jason Resch wrote:


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 7:11 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Besides, it's silly to say one "has" a plane of simultaneity and therefore everything in the past of that plane is fixed.  You might as well say one has a future and therefore everything one's life is past and therefore fixed.

Rietdijk and Hilary Putnam both argued relativity implies determinism and existence of all points in time. Minkowski, Einstein, Penrose all supported the idea. Feynman diagrams and his explanation of antimatter imply the existence of the future.

Strange, yes, it's not how we evolved to interpret reality. But I wouldn't say it's silly, I think it's an inescapable conclusion of the four dimensional reality implied by relativity.

But all it proves is that there are coordinate values there.  It doesn't prove anything about determinism.

Brent

Jason Resch

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Jul 22, 2020, 12:13:20 AM7/22/20
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On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 9:47 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:


On 7/21/2020 7:01 PM, Jason Resch wrote:


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 7:11 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Besides, it's silly to say one "has" a plane of simultaneity and therefore everything in the past of that plane is fixed.  You might as well say one has a future and therefore everything one's life is past and therefore fixed.

Rietdijk and Hilary Putnam both argued relativity implies determinism and existence of all points in time. Minkowski, Einstein, Penrose all supported the idea. Feynman diagrams and his explanation of antimatter imply the existence of the future.

Strange, yes, it's not how we evolved to interpret reality. But I wouldn't say it's silly, I think it's an inescapable conclusion of the four dimensional reality implied by relativity.

But all it proves is that there are coordinate values there.  It doesn't prove anything about determinism.

Brent


If there is an objective reality beyond our immediate local vicinity, and if there is no privileged reference frame, then your present and my present contain different content.  Some of the space-time events of my present are in your future, and others are in your past, and vice versa.

There are three consistent ways out of this: 
1. There are privileged reference frames
2. There is no objective reality
3. All events in space-time are equally real

Jason
 

Brent Meeker

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Jul 22, 2020, 12:39:13 AM7/22/20
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On 7/21/2020 9:13 PM, Jason Resch wrote:


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 9:47 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:


On 7/21/2020 7:01 PM, Jason Resch wrote:


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 7:11 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Besides, it's silly to say one "has" a plane of simultaneity and therefore everything in the past of that plane is fixed.  You might as well say one has a future and therefore everything one's life is past and therefore fixed.

Rietdijk and Hilary Putnam both argued relativity implies determinism and existence of all points in time. Minkowski, Einstein, Penrose all supported the idea. Feynman diagrams and his explanation of antimatter imply the existence of the future.

Strange, yes, it's not how we evolved to interpret reality. But I wouldn't say it's silly, I think it's an inescapable conclusion of the four dimensional reality implied by relativity.

But all it proves is that there are coordinate values there.  It doesn't prove anything about determinism.

Brent


If there is an objective reality beyond our immediate local vicinity, and if there is no privileged reference frame, then your present and my present contain different content. 

You're assuming your present has some great extent, which is unjustified.

Brent

John Clark

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Jul 22, 2020, 6:09:39 AM7/22/20
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On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 7:38 PM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> We have a problem with defining nothingness.

How about infinite unbounded homogeneity?

John K Clark

Lawrence Crowell

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Jul 22, 2020, 7:12:37 AM7/22/20
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This assume a car, which looks like a Corvette which I assume is fairly fast. So, for 80mi/hr that is 128km/hr or .036km/sec. The v/c  = 1.2×10^{-7}. The Lorentz gamma factor γ = 1/√(1 - (v/c)^2) for a small v/c is approximately by binomial theorem

γ ≃ 1 + ½(v/c)^2 = 1 + 7.0×10^{-15}.

The time difference is given by the ½(v/c)^2 = 7.0×10^{-15}..  A year is 3.15×10^7sec and Andromeda is 2.5×10^6 light years which means t = 7.9×10^{13}sec is the time it takes light to reach us from there. I then get .55sec as the time difference for t’ = t/γ. 

LC

Jason Resch

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Jul 22, 2020, 10:29:17 AM7/22/20
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On Tue, Jul 21, 2020, 11:39 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:


On 7/21/2020 9:13 PM, Jason Resch wrote:


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 9:47 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:


On 7/21/2020 7:01 PM, Jason Resch wrote:


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 7:11 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Besides, it's silly to say one "has" a plane of simultaneity and therefore everything in the past of that plane is fixed.  You might as well say one has a future and therefore everything one's life is past and therefore fixed.

Rietdijk and Hilary Putnam both argued relativity implies determinism and existence of all points in time. Minkowski, Einstein, Penrose all supported the idea. Feynman diagrams and his explanation of antimatter imply the existence of the future.

Strange, yes, it's not how we evolved to interpret reality. But I wouldn't say it's silly, I think it's an inescapable conclusion of the four dimensional reality implied by relativity.

But all it proves is that there are coordinate values there.  It doesn't prove anything about determinism.

Brent


If there is an objective reality beyond our immediate local vicinity, and if there is no privileged reference frame, then your present and my present contain different content. 

You're assuming your present has some great extent, which is unjustified.

Brent


Do you believe the sun exists?

Jason

Jason Resch

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Jul 22, 2020, 10:42:43 AM7/22/20
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On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 6:12 AM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:
This assume a car, which looks like a Corvette which I assume is fairly fast. So, for 80mi/hr that is 128km/hr or .036km/sec. The v/c  = 1.2×10^{-7}. The Lorentz gamma factor γ = 1/√(1 - (v/c)^2) for a small v/c is approximately by binomial theorem

γ ≃ 1 + ½(v/c)^2 = 1 + 7.0×10^{-15}.

The time difference is given by the ½(v/c)^2 = 7.0×10^{-15}..  A year is 3.15×10^7sec and Andromeda is 2.5×10^6 light years which means t = 7.9×10^{13}sec is the time it takes light to reach us from there. I then get .55sec as the time difference for t’ = t/γ. 

LC

The effect is not due to time dilation (which is symmetric for two people walking in opposite directions). It's due to clock desynchronization:

two clocks, at the front and rear of a moving rocket which at rest were synchronized, when moving relative to you appear desychronized.

The effect is proportional to length. Which is why very low speeds are needed for astronomical distances, like here to Andromeda. It's due to Andromeda, and all space between, being rotated in spacetime.

Another way to look at it, is consider length contraction as an effect of on object being rotated in spacetime. We see only the 3D "shadows" of what are 4D objects. This shadow contracts just like the shadow of an umbrella pointed at the sun contracts when titled. But the umbrella is still the same size. Similarly the proper length of an object in spacetime doesn't change, but now some of its length that used to reach through space now reaches through time. So the two ends of an accelerated meterstick will reach through time, and be at slightly different ages.


Jason

Bruno Marchal

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Jul 24, 2020, 5:30:30 AM7/24/20
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On 21 Jul 2020, at 20:14, Jason Resch <jason...@gmail.com> wrote:

I recently came across a paper by C. W. Rietdijk (who is perhaps most famous for using special relativity to prove the existence of a pre-determined, timeless, physical reality) in 1966.

Actually, I did believe in that type of argument. What makes me doubt a little bit is the book by Palle Yourgrau (A world without time, the forgotten legacy of Gödel and Einstein). It seems to me that Einstein was well aware that SR implies the dispersion of “objective physical time”, but the book explains that with GR, Einstein was not convinced about that time disparition from physics, and that Gödel show him that this is the case, with his circular time solution of Einstein GR equation. So that remains a bit of a mystery for me. Should reread Palle Yourgrau.
Amusingly, Einstein found an inconsistency in the US constitution, and plaid that it made the US possibly becoming a dictatorship. I strongly disagree with Gödel on this, but I did not expect a Senate able to dismiss second hand information as second hand, and then to dismiss the first hand information (in its impeachment acquitting vote). The US constitution is very good, including in preventing a dictatorship, unless those in power violate it systematically, which is what Trump and its acolytes do since 2016...





As it turns out, he was active and publishing into his 90s, and in 2018 published:

"Four-dimensional reality continued. The implications of the block universe for the origin of matter, consciousness and a possible afterlife. The Einstein–Podolsky–Rosen paradox and its role in four dimensions"


I have found much of it to be fascinating and also in line with Bruno's theories.


OK. I will pinpoint on the major differences.



For example, some excerpts:
 

In the beginning, there was only truth, logic and their relation. No possible reality can do without them.


OK. Technically, truth is ambiguous, and logic is not enough. We have to postulate at least one universal machinery (like elementary arithmetic for example). No possible reality having computers is possible without postulating one universal system/machinery.



As we move from a 3D to a 4D theory of the Universe,

… and this presuppese number and geometry, which actually have to be derive from there-supposed universal machinery.



several crucial questions need to be asked and answered. One of the most important of those questions concerns the creation of matter. In this section, we deal with this question and ask ourselves: Was matter actually created and how real is it?

In 4D a Big Bang is both inconceivable and irrelevant; a 4D universe is static—there are no changes in the time direction, therefore a transition from a Universal Void to the existence of matter cannot be. In both 3D and 4D, we must start from the irrefutable fact that “something” must have always been there, and we believe this to be the laws of nature.


With Mechanism, it is better to assume a universal machinery which is as much unlike a physical or geometrical reality as possible, so that when we get the physical laws, we are not accused of cheating… Here the stance is quite physicalist, and directly assume some matter, and makes explicit that it has to be assumed, and so this matter is judged to be primitive, and, as you know, that leads to NON-Mechanism.


Voltaire’s argument about the existence of God (No watch without a watchmaker) begs the question who created the watchmaker, unless we assume that the laws of nature and the universe created themselves. It is our firm belief that the Pythagorean theorem needs not be created, nor the fact that the circumference of a circle is 3.14… times the diameter; the laws of nature and the collection of truths, values and their interrelations are primordial and have always existed.

With Mechanism, we simply cannot assume real numbers.




The fundamental stuff of the Universe in 4D consists of logic, mathematics and natural law, which of course exist and always have existed. It seems impossible to eliminate truths, values, etc., from the Universe. Note that in a deterministic conception, there is only one universe. This is the universe that we see; a static 4D universe which is not void.



With Mechanism, analysis and physics must be derived without assuming a physical universe. Mechanism is more idealistic, somehow, even if the fundamental reality is not idealistic at all, yet non physical either.


The laws of nature—which have always existed

Yes, but only in the mind of the machine. The solidity comes from the fact that all machine finds the same physics in their head. The laws of nature always existed in some sense, but are logical consequence of elementary arithmetic.



—imply that intelligence has always existed and has always been present, with its correlates “experience” and “Aha-erlebnis,” perceivable to man here and now. It would seem that intelligence must have preceded everything, but in our search for the origin of matter, we cannot content ourselves by simply stating that (3D) matter is produced by intelligence. It is possible from the concept of completed intelligence (viz., intelligence including experience and the Aha-erlebnis), to create the deceptive suggestion of the existence of matter, experienced in a collective dream, dreamed by living, intelligent beings.

With mechanism, the physical reality (the collective dream) emerges from the first person (plural) statistics on all dreams, by all universal machines.



This is what we consider to be consciousness. The recognition of the differences between patterns is an Aha-erlebnis.

The elementary particles as we know them form patterns, including very implicit or hidden patterns. The marker points and their patterns are the way Intelligence orders all that exists in the world, including feelings, thoughts, colors, sounds, etc.

Here, Mechanism is more explicit, and provides the mathematical theories of the vertical differences between truth, provable, knowable, observable and sensible, + the horizontal true/proved differences, with explicit differences between the mathematics of quanta and the mathematics of qualia, and where this comes from.



We hypothesize that the microparticles in the Universe form Universal patterns, or abstract, theoretical points that answer to the laws of nature, formulas and logical principles; the common coordinate points in the Universe. These points form a kind of skeleton of the grand pattern of the collective “dream;” a blueprint or map of the Universe.




Only by assuming NON-Mechanism can this makes sense. With Mechanism, this blueprint is first person plural pattern, involving infinitely many dreams. 
So, all this go in the right direction, but is not enough “idealist” about the “physical reality” to be coherent with Mechanism.

Bruno





Jason

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Brent Meeker

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Jul 24, 2020, 2:00:13 PM7/24/20
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On 7/24/2020 2:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 21 Jul 2020, at 20:14, Jason Resch <jason...@gmail.com> wrote:

I recently came across a paper by C. W. Rietdijk (who is perhaps most famous for using special relativity to prove the existence of a pre-determined, timeless, physical reality) in 1966.

Actually, I did believe in that type of argument. What makes me doubt a little bit is the book by Palle Yourgrau (A world without time, the forgotten legacy of Gödel and Einstein). It seems to me that Einstein was well aware that SR implies the dispersion of “objective physical time”, but the book explains that with GR, Einstein was not convinced about that time disparition from physics, and that Gödel show him that this is the case, with his circular time solution of Einstein GR equation. So that remains a bit of a mystery for me. Should reread Palle Yourgrau.
Amusingly, Einstein found an inconsistency in the US constitution, and plaid that it made the US possibly becoming a dictatorship.

I thought the story was that Gödel found an inconsistency in the Constitution and Einstein had to persuade him not to bring it up in his application for U.S. citizenship.


I strongly disagree with Gödel on this, but I did not expect a Senate able to dismiss second hand information as second hand, and then to dismiss the first hand information (in its impeachment acquitting vote). The US constitution is very good, including in preventing a dictatorship, unless those in power violate it systematically, which is what Trump and its acolytes do since 2016...

Brent

Bruno Marchal

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Jul 27, 2020, 11:50:44 AM7/27/20
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On 24 Jul 2020, at 20:00, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



On 7/24/2020 2:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 21 Jul 2020, at 20:14, Jason Resch <jason...@gmail.com> wrote:

I recently came across a paper by C. W. Rietdijk (who is perhaps most famous for using special relativity to prove the existence of a pre-determined, timeless, physical reality) in 1966.

Actually, I did believe in that type of argument. What makes me doubt a little bit is the book by Palle Yourgrau (A world without time, the forgotten legacy of Gödel and Einstein). It seems to me that Einstein was well aware that SR implies the dispersion of “objective physical time”, but the book explains that with GR, Einstein was not convinced about that time disparition from physics, and that Gödel show him that this is the case, with his circular time solution of Einstein GR equation. So that remains a bit of a mystery for me. Should reread Palle Yourgrau.
Amusingly, Einstein found an inconsistency in the US constitution, and plaid that it made the US possibly becoming a dictatorship.

I thought the story was that Gödel found an inconsistency in the Constitution and Einstein had to persuade him not to bring it up in his application for U.S. citizenship.

You are right Brent. I meant Gödel.

Yet, what happens now in the US is not a symptom of a bug in the US constitution, which in my opinion is very good, but a symptom that a president, and its acolytes, do not respect it. 

It is only recently that I understood that the US president is a civilian, despite being the “commander in chief of the army”.
I think that in my country, the kind is also de facto the commander in chief of the army, but this means, here, that he is a military (I think). The king of Belgium would have said to Putin that he (the king) trust Putin more than his intelligence service, he would have been arrested when coming back from Helsinki, to be seriously interrogated by the Military … (theoretically, because here too, be it in academies or in press, the power of the institutions is eroded, and the bandits reign in part.

I cannot swallow the vote of the Senate which acquitted Trump for his cheating in the election. That makes him right now into a dictator. He has no reason to care more on the election that he care about the coronavirus. The dictatorship seems to be there already. If Bidden win, Trump might say just “Fake News”, and Barr might sent the “police” to arrest the journalists claiming the contrary. It looks it is training that “police” in Portland …. I pray that the American Democracy and the free-world survives to this. Optimistically, I hope that we will get rid of the bandits who seem to have Trump as only last resort to protect them… But Trump has many allies, as all dictators and bandits on the planet will help him in all the illegal way possible, without mentioning the gift of Trump itself to generate chaos...

Bruno




I strongly disagree with Gödel on this, but I did not expect a Senate able to dismiss second hand information as second hand, and then to dismiss the first hand information (in its impeachment acquitting vote). The US constitution is very good, including in preventing a dictatorship, unless those in power violate it systematically, which is what Trump and its acolytes do since 2016...

Brent

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Jason Resch

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Aug 7, 2020, 3:39:58 AM8/7/20
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On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 11:39 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:


On 7/21/2020 9:13 PM, Jason Resch wrote:


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 9:47 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:


On 7/21/2020 7:01 PM, Jason Resch wrote:


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 7:11 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Besides, it's silly to say one "has" a plane of simultaneity and therefore everything in the past of that plane is fixed.  You might as well say one has a future and therefore everything one's life is past and therefore fixed.

Rietdijk and Hilary Putnam both argued relativity implies determinism and existence of all points in time. Minkowski, Einstein, Penrose all supported the idea. Feynman diagrams and his explanation of antimatter imply the existence of the future.

Strange, yes, it's not how we evolved to interpret reality. But I wouldn't say it's silly, I think it's an inescapable conclusion of the four dimensional reality implied by relativity.

But all it proves is that there are coordinate values there.  It doesn't prove anything about determinism.

Brent


If there is an objective reality beyond our immediate local vicinity, and if there is no privileged reference frame, then your present and my present contain different content. 

You're assuming your present has some great extent, which is unjustified.

Hi Brent,

I put together an article, along with some animated diagrams to show how relativity implies four-dimensionalism and existence of many time-separated events:


I welcome any feedback/corrections in case I got anything wrong or misrepresent anything.

Jason

spudb...@aol.com

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Aug 8, 2020, 2:18:05 AM8/8/20
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Very good article, Jason, and explained well. I had always wondered how Besso's family could have derived "comfort" from Einstein, with his statements. It's basically his view that in the Block Universe aka Frame, things are always there. My own reading led me to how a study in physics led by Andrew Strominger (2018) and the last paper of Hawking, indicated (as seen by science writer Dennis Overbye) that information gets stored via infrared photons. I don't even know if this conflates with Einstein's view? Speaking of Brahma, it also parallels the Hindu Akashic record, or what we moderns might term, a relational database. 

Mitch


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