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alexalex
May 19, 2012, 4:24:08 AM5/19/12
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Taking the qunatum immortality argument as a fact what do you think
about the following implication?
If you'll be conscious only in those universes where you'll keep on
living then most surely you'll watch all your brothers and sisters,
friends and foes DIE! You often think about it? It strikes and as mind
bogling that with a high degree of accuracy, I'll experience my
brothers and sisters go into oblivion and there's nothing I can do
about it. It's like a prison.
Thanks!
about the following implication?
If you'll be conscious only in those universes where you'll keep on
living then most surely you'll watch all your brothers and sisters,
friends and foes DIE! You often think about it? It strikes and as mind
bogling that with a high degree of accuracy, I'll experience my
brothers and sisters go into oblivion and there's nothing I can do
about it. It's like a prison.
Thanks!
Bruno Marchal
May 19, 2012, 6:46:36 AM5/19/12
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> It's like a prison.
bit like a prison. But we can also forget, backtrack, fuse mind, and
all in all, it is premature to develop fear. The picture is too vague
for that, and our theories can be wrong.
Anyway, science is not wishful thinking, and truth searching needs
some amount of courage.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
Jason Resch
May 19, 2012, 2:19:03 PM5/19/12
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Alex,
One way I see of 'escaping' quantum immortality is to assume elements of the simulation argument ( http://www.simulation-argument.com/ ) are correct. The simulation argument supposes that the computational capacity of civilizations eventually reaches the point where they can run minds on these new computational substrates. Existing in a virtual reality provides much greater freedom for possible experiences, as well as much greater speeds. Signals in electronic circuits are about 1,000,000 times faster than the electrochemical signals of neurons. Thus is may be feasible to experience a 70-year life time in a little more than half an hour. Members of such advanced civilizations could experience who life times in the same way we might watch an episode of a TV show.
Assuming this is physically possible, then it is very likely (somewhere in the many branches) that it already has happened, somewhere. If it has happened, then it means we cannot know with certainty who we really are. At any time we might wake up and find ourselves to be a future human, some alien being, a god-like super mind, etc. Much like a youtube video has many viewers, your life may have many experiencers. When it ends, it is impossible to know who you might be.
Where this comes in regards to MWI immortality, is that even if ancestor simulations make up a small percentage of the explanations for your present moment of awareness, (let's say 2%), eventually I think these extensions become more probable than continued survival via strange or unlikely MWI possibilities. Also, there are reasons to believe the percentage might even be over 50%. Consider that it is predicted by 2045, $1000 could buy a computer a billion times more powerful than every human combined. In a short period of time, such a computer could generate more "human experience" than all the humans who have ever lived biological lives. (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_made_by_Ray_Kurzweil )
Jason
One way I see of 'escaping' quantum immortality is to assume elements of the simulation argument ( http://www.simulation-argument.com/ ) are correct. The simulation argument supposes that the computational capacity of civilizations eventually reaches the point where they can run minds on these new computational substrates. Existing in a virtual reality provides much greater freedom for possible experiences, as well as much greater speeds. Signals in electronic circuits are about 1,000,000 times faster than the electrochemical signals of neurons. Thus is may be feasible to experience a 70-year life time in a little more than half an hour. Members of such advanced civilizations could experience who life times in the same way we might watch an episode of a TV show.
Assuming this is physically possible, then it is very likely (somewhere in the many branches) that it already has happened, somewhere. If it has happened, then it means we cannot know with certainty who we really are. At any time we might wake up and find ourselves to be a future human, some alien being, a god-like super mind, etc. Much like a youtube video has many viewers, your life may have many experiencers. When it ends, it is impossible to know who you might be.
Where this comes in regards to MWI immortality, is that even if ancestor simulations make up a small percentage of the explanations for your present moment of awareness, (let's say 2%), eventually I think these extensions become more probable than continued survival via strange or unlikely MWI possibilities. Also, there are reasons to believe the percentage might even be over 50%. Consider that it is predicted by 2045, $1000 could buy a computer a billion times more powerful than every human combined. In a short period of time, such a computer could generate more "human experience" than all the humans who have ever lived biological lives. (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_made_by_Ray_Kurzweil )
Jason
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Stephen P. King
May 19, 2012, 2:52:27 PM5/19/12
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On 5/19/2012 2:19 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
Alex,
One way I see of 'escaping' quantum immortality is to assume elements of the simulation argument ( http://www.simulation-argument.com/ ) are correct. The simulation argument supposes that the computational capacity of civilizations eventually reaches the point where they can run minds on these new computational substrates. Existing in a virtual reality provides much greater freedom for possible experiences, as well as much greater speeds. Signals in electronic circuits are about 1,000,000 times faster than the electrochemical signals of neurons. Thus is may be feasible to experience a 70-year life time in a little more than half an hour. Members of such advanced civilizations could experience who life times in the same way we might watch an episode of a TV show.
Hi Jason,
Would not the experience of a 70-year life time require the computation of the simulation of that entire life time? How long would it take a top of the line computer to generate that simulation? It is not "a little more than half an hour". Talk to someone that is involved in CGI production sometime about how much time and computer power it takes to generate a 2 hour movie...
Would not the experience of a 70-year life time require the computation of the simulation of that entire life time? How long would it take a top of the line computer to generate that simulation? It is not "a little more than half an hour". Talk to someone that is involved in CGI production sometime about how much time and computer power it takes to generate a 2 hour movie...
Assuming this is physically possible, then it is very likely (somewhere in the many branches) that it already has happened, somewhere. If it has happened, then it means we cannot know with certainty who we really are. At any time we might wake up and find ourselves to be a future human, some alien being, a god-like super mind, etc. Much like a youtube video has many viewers, your life may have many experiencers. When it ends, it is impossible to know who you might be.
Does this not assume that 1) there is really only one version of
"you" that has the experience and 2) that the experiences for each
observer are separable from each other. You are describing a
collection of solipsists that operate under the delusion that what
they each experience as "other people" are just empty shells.
Where this comes in regards to MWI immortality, is that even if ancestor simulations make up a small percentage of the explanations for your present moment of awareness, (let's say 2%), eventually I think these extensions become more probable than continued survival via strange or unlikely MWI possibilities. Also, there are reasons to believe the percentage might even be over 50%. Consider that it is predicted by 2045, $1000 could buy a computer a billion times more powerful than every human combined. In a short period of time, such a computer could generate more "human experience" than all the humans who have ever lived biological lives. (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_made_by_Ray_Kurzweil )
I still do not understand why the number of possible "beings
that have experience" is only a finite number.
Jason
On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 3:24 AM, alexalex <alexm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Taking the qunatum immortality argument as a fact what do you think
about the following implication?
If you'll be conscious only in those universes where you'll keep on
living then most surely you'll watch all your brothers and sisters,
friends and foes DIE! You often think about it? It strikes and as mind
bogling that with a high degree of accuracy, I'll experience my
brothers and sisters go into oblivion and there's nothing I can do
about it. It's like a prison.
Thanks!
--
-- Onward! Stephen "Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed." ~ Francis Bacon
Jason Resch
May 19, 2012, 3:17:27 PM5/19/12
to everyth...@googlegroups.com
On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Stephen P. King <step...@charter.net> wrote:
On 5/19/2012 2:19 PM, Jason Resch wrote:Hi Jason,Alex,
One way I see of 'escaping' quantum immortality is to assume elements of the simulation argument ( http://www.simulation-argument.com/ ) are correct. The simulation argument supposes that the computational capacity of civilizations eventually reaches the point where they can run minds on these new computational substrates. Existing in a virtual reality provides much greater freedom for possible experiences, as well as much greater speeds. Signals in electronic circuits are about 1,000,000 times faster than the electrochemical signals of neurons. Thus is may be feasible to experience a 70-year life time in a little more than half an hour. Members of such advanced civilizations could experience who life times in the same way we might watch an episode of a TV show.
Would not the experience of a 70-year life time require the computation of the simulation of that entire life time?
Yes.
How long would it take a top of the line computer to generate that simulation?
The sensory input which is fed into the simulated mind is far smaller than the amount of processing and data required to represent the mind.
It is not "a little more than half an hour". Talk to someone that is involved in CGI production sometime about how much time and computer power it takes to generate a 2 hour movie...
Computers grow in capability by a factor of 1000 every 10-15 years. It is easy to overlook the possibilities that come with such an exponential trend.
Does this not assume that 1) there is really only one version of "you"
Assuming this is physically possible, then it is very likely (somewhere in the many branches) that it already has happened, somewhere. If it has happened, then it means we cannot know with certainty who we really are. At any time we might wake up and find ourselves to be a future human, some alien being, a god-like super mind, etc. Much like a youtube video has many viewers, your life may have many experiencers. When it ends, it is impossible to know who you might be.
This follows from digital mechanism. (the computational theory of mind)
that has the experience and 2) that the experiences for each observer are separable from each other.
I am not sure what you mean by the above.
You are describing a collection of solipsists that operate under the delusion that what they each experience as "other people" are just empty shells.
They are real people somewhere, and you might as well consider them as such. If they are simulated to a sufficient level of accuracy, they too would be conscious. Also, the simulation argument does not preclude "multi-player" simulations, so when you wake up from this simulation you might those "players" who served the roll as someone you knew in the simulated life. You might even try each of the roles yourself, so you could serve the roles of multiple people or all the people in the simulation at once. This is also the result from merging / sharing experiences of those who experienced different lives within the simulation.
I still do not understand why the number of possible "beings that have experience" is only a finite number.
Where this comes in regards to MWI immortality, is that even if ancestor simulations make up a small percentage of the explanations for your present moment of awareness, (let's say 2%), eventually I think these extensions become more probable than continued survival via strange or unlikely MWI possibilities. Also, there are reasons to believe the percentage might even be over 50%. Consider that it is predicted by 2045, $1000 could buy a computer a billion times more powerful than every human combined. In a short period of time, such a computer could generate more "human experience" than all the humans who have ever lived biological lives. (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_made_by_Ray_Kurzweil )
Where did I say this?
Jason
On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 3:24 AM, alexalex <alexm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Taking the qunatum immortality argument as a fact what do you think
about the following implication?
If you'll be conscious only in those universes where you'll keep on
living then most surely you'll watch all your brothers and sisters,
friends and foes DIE! You often think about it? It strikes and as mind
bogling that with a high degree of accuracy, I'll experience my
brothers and sisters go into oblivion and there's nothing I can do
about it. It's like a prison.
Thanks!
--
-- Onward! Stephen "Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed." ~ Francis Bacon
--
meekerdb
May 19, 2012, 3:52:28 PM5/19/12
to everyth...@googlegroups.com
But, on this model, there are a lot of 'you' and only a vanishing few will see their brothers and sisters and friend and civilization die off. In fact we can make a rough estimate: there about 7 billion people on earth and none of them is older than about 120yrs, so the measure of 'you' that reaches beyond 120yrs is probably small compared to 0.16e-9.
Brent
Craig Weinberg
May 19, 2012, 8:49:27 PM5/19/12
to Everything List
Wouldn't it also sort of mean that you can't die in your sleep? Why do
we keep waking up in the same life when we could just as easily jump
to a different one? What if the experience of being completely asleep
continued forever without you ever knowing whether or not you had
survived your friends and family? It seems like you have to invoke
some quantum regulation that knows the difference between coma and
death and considers it important enough to keep you in one particular
body in one case but not in another. What could that be about? How
does a coma fit into QI?
Craig
we keep waking up in the same life when we could just as easily jump
to a different one? What if the experience of being completely asleep
continued forever without you ever knowing whether or not you had
survived your friends and family? It seems like you have to invoke
some quantum regulation that knows the difference between coma and
death and considers it important enough to keep you in one particular
body in one case but not in another. What could that be about? How
does a coma fit into QI?
Craig
meekerdb
May 20, 2012, 1:15:28 AM5/20/12
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"You" only split when some quantum event gets amplified to make a macroscopic, i.e.
quasi-classical, difference. Otherwise "Craig Weinberg" is a somewhat fuzzy operator
projecting onto a lot of slight different, but classically equivalent, subspaces. When
the "Craig Weinberg" on that subspace dies, he's dead. He doesn't get to become the Craig
Weinberg that on a subspace that became orthogonal five years ago when that gamma ray
caused him, in one subspace, to join the everything list.
Brent
quasi-classical, difference. Otherwise "Craig Weinberg" is a somewhat fuzzy operator
projecting onto a lot of slight different, but classically equivalent, subspaces. When
the "Craig Weinberg" on that subspace dies, he's dead. He doesn't get to become the Craig
Weinberg that on a subspace that became orthogonal five years ago when that gamma ray
caused him, in one subspace, to join the everything list.
Brent
Craig Weinberg
May 20, 2012, 9:36:37 AM5/20/12
to Everything List
On May 20, 1:15 am, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
> "You" only split when some quantum event gets amplified to make a macroscopic, i.e.
> quasi-classical, difference. Otherwise "Craig Weinberg" is a somewhat fuzzy operator
> projecting onto a lot of slight different, but classically equivalent, subspaces.
What makes them have to be only slightly different? Can one of the
> "You" only split when some quantum event gets amplified to make a macroscopic, i.e.
> quasi-classical, difference. Otherwise "Craig Weinberg" is a somewhat fuzzy operator
> projecting onto a lot of slight different, but classically equivalent, subspaces.
slightly different universes be different in that its quantum laws
allow for radical differences? If not, why?
When
> the "Craig Weinberg" on that subspace dies, he's dead.
being dead as far as the rules of MWI succession go? How does the
universe know that I'm not dead?
He doesn't get to become the Craig
> Weinberg that on a subspace that became orthogonal five years ago when that gamma ray
> caused him, in one subspace, to join the everything list.
you, in one subspace, join a Wiccan Heresy list, does that mean that I
will have had to have a gamma ray or some other influence making me
send the gamma ray into you?
Craig
Stathis Papaioannou
May 24, 2012, 10:02:18 AM5/24/12
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likely way possible. This may mean finding yourself alive in a
universe where you as well as those around you share in some
life-prolonging technology, such as mind uploading or finding that
you're already living in a simulation.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
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