I see all of our experiences, including dreams and delusions as being physical, but not necessarily “real”. To me, realism is a loose term describing the ‘middle of the road’ range of experiences in which bodies and minds are clearly separate. The contrasting ‘unreal’ ranges are the profoundly spiritual/psychedelic/psychotic experiences and the profoundly logical/mathematical/abstracted principles, both of which can be understood as signifying real or more-than-real referents.
Physical (< Unrealism of Logic < Realism of Bodies and Space ⊥ Realism of Experiences and Time > Unrealism of Psyche >)*
Metaphysical = Hypothetically outside of spacetime and matter.
Energy = Logical conceptualization of the perception and participation of material bodies in spacetime.
Information = Logical conceptualization of logic in spacetime.
Logic = Phenomenology turned in on itself - subjectivity that seeks to evacuate subjectivity of itself, leaving purely universal and involuntary truths as a residual product.
Psyche = Deep phenomenology. Unconstrained by logic, subjectivity is free to sense and dream itself into transpersonal and near-metaphysical ranges of experience.
* This is the Multisense Continuum, which is involuted like a Mobius strip, and can be shuffled and turned around:
< Unrealism of Logic
< Realism of Bodies and Space ⊥ Realism of Experiences and Time >
Unrealism of Psyche >
(⊥ = “perpendicular/orthogonal fold” relation of Pedestrian Realism, ie supermarket reality).
⊥ Realism of Experiences and Time >
Unrealism of Psyche > < Unrealism of Logic
< Realism of Bodies and Space ⊥
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Craig WeinbergReceiver: everything-listTime: 2012-09-21, 10:58:11Subject: Physics, Metaphysics, and Realism
Hi Craig Weinberg
I would classify your items as follows:
MENTAL (outside of spacetime) : All experiences, dreams, delusions, information, mathematics, logic, time,
space, feelings, thoughts, ideas, numbers, life itself, God, monads, mathematics, physical laws themselves,
theory of any type.
PHYSICAL (within spacetime): Anything with dimensions, anything you can measure with physical instruments
(even indirectly), weigh or see under a microscope or telescope, mass, energy, force, velocity, time, distance,
voltage, optical or sound intensity, wave amplitude, dna type, cancer type, living tissue, dead tissue,
flesh (brain).
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi
Phenomena are the how physical processes appear to our senses.
So they are appearances, not the processes themselves.
But scientific experiments and measurements are not
made on the appearances, they are made on the
processes. Thus the appearences areor [phenomena
are said to be "well-grounded" in the processes themselves.
Kant spelled this out in great detail, calling "noumena" the
actual physical process which we cannot reach by our senses,
and the appearances of those noumena to the senses
he called "phenomena".
On 23 Sep 2012, at 15:05, Roger Clough wrote:
> Hi Evgenii Rudnyi
>
>
> Phenomena are the how physical processes appear to our senses.
> So they are appearances, not the processes themselves.
> But scientific experiments and measurements are not
> made on the appearances, they are made on the
> processes. Thus the appearences areor [phenomena
> are said to be "well-grounded" in the processes themselves.
>
> Kant spelled this out in great detail, calling "noumena" the
> actual physical process which we cannot reach by our senses,
And which does not exist, at least not in the sense that they cause
our senses.
This is the most counter-intuitive aspect of comp, as the physical
process are projection on the conditions making the dream coherent.
On 23 Sep 2012, at 20:11, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
> On Sunday, September 23, 2012 11:28:49 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
> On 23 Sep 2012, at 15:05, Roger Clough wrote:
>
> > Hi Evgenii Rudnyi
> >
> >
> > Phenomena are the how physical processes appear to our senses.
> > So they are appearances, not the processes themselves.
> > But scientific experiments and measurements are not
> > made on the appearances, they are made on the
> > processes. Thus the appearences areor [phenomena
> > are said to be "well-grounded" in the processes themselves.
> >
> > Kant spelled this out in great detail, calling "noumena" the
> > actual physical process which we cannot reach by our senses,
>
>
> And which does not exist, at least not in the sense that they cause
> our senses.
> This is the most counter-intuitive aspect of comp, as the physical
> process are projection on the conditions making the dream coherent.
>
> Why does comp want coherent dreams?
Coherent dreams are reasonable data.
On Monday, September 24, 2012 5:13:11 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 23 Sep 2012, at 20:11, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
> On Sunday, September 23, 2012 11:28:49 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
> On 23 Sep 2012, at 15:05, Roger Clough wrote:
>
> > Hi Evgenii Rudnyi
> >
> >
> > Phenomena are the how physical processes appear to our senses.
> > So they are appearances, not the processes themselves.
> > But scientific experiments and measurements are not
> > made on the appearances, they are made on the
> > processes. Thus the appearences areor [phenomena
> > are said to be "well-grounded" in the processes themselves.
> >
> > Kant spelled this out in great detail, calling "noumena" the
> > actual physical process which we cannot reach by our senses,
>
>
> And which does not exist, at least not in the sense that they cause
> our senses.
> This is the most counter-intuitive aspect of comp, as the physical
> process are projection on the conditions making the dream coherent.
>
> Why does comp want coherent dreams?
Coherent dreams are reasonable data.
Why does comp want reasonable data?
Comp has to justify their
existence (easy, with comp), and their relative measure (hard).
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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On 24 Sep 2012, at 18:16, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Monday, September 24, 2012 5:13:11 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 23 Sep 2012, at 20:11, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>
> On Sunday, September 23, 2012 11:28:49 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
> On 23 Sep 2012, at 15:05, Roger Clough wrote:
>
> > Hi Evgenii Rudnyi
> >
> >
> > Phenomena are the how physical processes appear to our senses.
> > So they are appearances, not the processes themselves.
> > But scientific experiments and measurements are not
> > made on the appearances, they are made on the
> > processes. Thus the appearences areor [phenomena
> > are said to be "well-grounded" in the processes themselves.
> >
> > Kant spelled this out in great detail, calling "noumena" the
> > actual physical process which we cannot reach by our senses,
>
>
> And which does not exist, at least not in the sense that they cause
> our senses.
> This is the most counter-intuitive aspect of comp, as the physical
> process are projection on the conditions making the dream coherent.
>
> Why does comp want coherent dreams?
Coherent dreams are reasonable data.
Why does comp want reasonable data?Comp does not want them. We have them. They are what *we* want to explain. Comp is just the working hypothesis.
Comp is your working hypothesis, not mine :)
CraigBrunoComp has to justify their
existence (easy, with comp), and their relative measure (hard).
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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Comp is your working hypothesis, not mine :)This make coherent your belief in matter. But you are back at the start of the mind body problem, as you assume everything we want to explain (mind, body, and their relation).
Comp + arithmetical truth implies our existence, and our relative
measure (physical laws).