Huh? (was Allah nonsense​)​

[John Clark]

Bruno Marchal Wrote:

> Jesus (which I think as never claim to be literally a god).

What are you talking about? Jesus not only claimed to be a god he claimed to be THE God, son of the Father and partner (or something) of the Holy Ghost which were all part of the Holy Trinity. You must have heard of the Holy Trinity, the 3 persons in one God crap, Christianity's pathetic attempt to have its cake and eat it too and have the advantages of both monotheism and polytheism. Officially the 3 persons are supposed to be equal but I always felt the Holy Ghost was the junior partner, the Ringo Star of the Holy Trinity, the Garfunkel in Simon and Garfunkel.

> To say “I am god” is a sort of blasphemy.

Well sure, but you almost make it sound like blasphemy is a bad thing. The problem with saying "I am God" isn't that it's blasphemous it's that it demonstrates severe mental illness.

> Only atheists talk about God.

I really don't know what I can say about a remark as monumentally silly as that.

John K Clark

 

[Bruno Marchal]

On 20 Jun 2019, at 14:05, John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote:

Bruno Marchal Wrote:

> Jesus (which I think has never claim to be literally a god).

What are you talking about? Jesus not only claimed to be a god he claimed to be THE God, son of the Father and partner (or something) of the Holy Ghost which were all part of the Holy Trinity. You must have heard of the Holy Trinity, the 3 persons in one God crap, Christianity's pathetic attempt to have its cake and eat it too and have the advantages of both monotheism and polytheism. Officially the 3 persons are supposed to be equal but I always felt the Holy Ghost was the junior partner, the Ringo Star of the Holy Trinity, the Garfunkel in Simon and Garfunkel.

References? I have search any indications that Jesus claimed this, but the references comes aways after 529.

You persists in defending the official doctrine of the christians, the one imposed by terror and authoritative argument. 

The trinity might have come from Plotinus three hypostases, and St-Augustin has used them to make sense of it (the christian trinity).

Mathematical logic is born from a more recent discussion, between Anglican Unionist and Anglican trinitarian. Just to introduced more rigor in that discussion. See the book of Daniel J. Cohen:

Cohen J. Daniel, 2007. Equations from God, Pure Mathematics and Victorian Faith, John Hopkins Press, Baltimore.

Bruno

> To say “I am god” is a sort of blasphemy.

Well sure, but you almost make it sound like blasphemy is a bad thing. The problem with saying "I am God" isn't that it's blasphemous it's that it demonstrates severe mental illness.

> Only atheists talk about God.

I really don't know what I can say about a remark as monumentally silly as that.

John K Clark

 

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[Philip Thrift]

On Thursday, June 20, 2019 at 10:37:19 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 20 Jun 2019, at 14:05, John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote:

Bruno Marchal Wrote:

> Jesus (which I think has never claim to be literally a god).

What are you talking about? Jesus not only claimed to be a god he claimed to be THE God, son of the Father and partner (or something) of the Holy Ghost which were all part of the Holy Trinity. You must have heard of the Holy Trinity, the 3 persons in one God crap, Christianity's pathetic attempt to have its cake and eat it too and have the advantages of both monotheism and polytheism. Officially the 3 persons are supposed to be equal but I always felt the Holy Ghost was the junior partner, the Ringo Star of the Holy Trinity, the Garfunkel in Simon and Garfunkel.

References? I have search any indications that Jesus claimed this, but the references comes aways after 529.

You persists in defending the official doctrine of the christians, the one imposed by terror and authoritative argument. 

The trinity might have come from Plotinus three hypostases, and St-Augustin has used them to make sense of it (the christian trinity).

Mathematical logic is born from a more recent discussion, between Anglican Unionist and Anglican trinitarian. Just to introduced more rigor in that discussion. See the book of Daniel J. Cohen:

Cohen J. Daniel, 2007. Equations from God, Pure Mathematics and Victorian Faith, John Hopkins Press, Baltimore.

Bruno

> To say “I am god” is a sort of blasphemy.

Well sure, but you almost make it sound like blasphemy is a bad thing. The problem with saying "I am God" isn't that it's blasphemous it's that it demonstrates severe mental illness.

> Only atheists talk about God.

I really don't know what I can say about a remark as monumentally silly as that.

John K Clark

In the text, a Trinity [Father, Son, and Holy Ghost] is rather clear, while Jesus equals God (rather than a Son, Father relationship), not really.

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

[a]  Some manuscripts but the only Son, who [John 1:18]

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. [John 14:26]

@philipthrift 

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Thursday, June 20, 2019 at 10:37:19 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 20 Jun 2019, at 14:05, John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote:

Bruno Marchal Wrote:

> Jesus (which I think has never claim to be literally a god).

What are you talking about? Jesus not only claimed to be a god he claimed to be THE God, son of the Father and partner (or something) of the Holy Ghost which were all part of the Holy Trinity. You must have heard of the Holy Trinity, the 3 persons in one God crap, Christianity's pathetic attempt to have its cake and eat it too and have the advantages of both monotheism and polytheism. Officially the 3 persons are supposed to be equal but I always felt the Holy Ghost was the junior partner, the Ringo Star of the Holy Trinity, the Garfunkel in Simon and Garfunkel.

References? I have search any indications that Jesus claimed this, but the references comes aways after 529.

You persists in defending the official doctrine of the christians, the one imposed by terror and authoritative argument. 

The trinity might have come from Plotinus three hypostases, and St-Augustin has used them to make sense of it (the christian trinity).

Mathematical logic is born from a more recent discussion, between Anglican Unionist and Anglican trinitarian. Just to introduced more rigor in that discussion. See the book of Daniel J. Cohen:

Cohen J. Daniel, 2007. Equations from God, Pure Mathematics and Victorian Faith, John Hopkins Press, Baltimore.

Bruno

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Moses in שְׁמוֹת (Shemot) or Exodus is addressed by God as "I am." To even just say "I am" amounts to declaring oneself God. The Gospels have a number of instances with Jesus saying this.

LC

[John Clark]

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 11:37 AM Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>> Jesus not only claimed to be a god he claimed to be THE God, son of the Father and partner (or something) of the Holy Ghost which were all part of the Holy Trinity. You must have heard of the Holy Trinity, the 3 persons in one God crap, Christianity's pathetic attempt to have its cake and eat it too and have the advantages of both monotheism and polytheism. Officially the 3 persons are supposed to be equal but I always felt the Holy Ghost was the junior partner, the Ringo Star of the Holy Trinity, the Garfunkel in Simon and Garfunkel.

> References?

References to what? I can't give original quotes from the man because nobody who wrote about Jesus ever saw him, all we know about Jesus, assuming He existed at all, comes from stuff written hundreds of years after He, that is to say God, was nailed to a cross by humans so God could forgive humans for eating an apple when told not to.

John K Clark

 

[Samiya Illias]

On 20-Jun-2019, at 11:23 PM, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

The Quran mentions the phrase بَنِي آدَمَ (bani Adam [son/children of Adam/Man]) ten times.

According to Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_man_(Christianity) 

The expression "the Son of man" occurs 81 times in the Greek text of the four Canonical gospels, and is used only in the sayings of Jesus.^[3] The singular Hebrew expression "son of man" (בן–אדם i.e. ben-'adam) also appears in the Torah over a hundred times.^[4]

I explain my understanding of Jesus, son of Mary and a progeny of Adam, according to The Quran, in terms of parthenogenesis and digital biology, in https://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/10/virgin-birth.html 

[Samiya Illias]

On 20-Jun-2019, at 11:28 PM, John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote:

References to what? I can't give original quotes from the man because nobody who wrote about Jesus ever saw him, all we know about Jesus, assuming He existed at all, comes from stuff written hundreds of years after He, that is to say God, was nailed to a cross by humans so God could forgive humans for eating an apple when told not to.

John K Clark

Jesus was never nailed to the cross.  

Adam was under a covenant , yet he disobeyed God and erred, while trying to become immortal. 

[Lawrence Crowell]

Jesus is a mythic character. Did he exist at all? Well maybe somebody, probably Yoshua or Joshua etc, lived and said some of things attributed to Jesus. Was he crucified? Maybe, the Romans were pretty good at doing that; remember Sparticus and his 10,000 who lined the Appian Way. Where things get really dicey is with resurrection, and this is where total supernaturalism kicks in. 

It became a popular idea in the first century BCE to believe a god came to Earth as a man. Apollonius was thought to be in incarnation of the Hellenic god Apollo, Osiris was the son of the Egyptian god Isis, Zarathustra the incarnation of Zoroaster and it even impacted Hinduism with Krishna. This is in effect where the Jesus myth came from, where this trend impacted Judaism in the Temple period. It is not at all hard to think there may have been a man or maybe several around that time who said they were the God of Abraham come to Earth, or who became popularly thought to be God. This clearly runs afoul of the commandment to have no graven image of God. 

Adam is of course purely fictional. Characters in the Torah are pretty mythic in general, and they are somewhat two dimensional as well. The first character who may have some small prospect of actually existing is Joseph, maybe if we stretch things Abraham. These characters though probably reflect a number of men who ran around with ideas of a law giving God. The land promised to Abraham, called Palestine or the modern Israel, sat between the major civilizations of Egypt and the Chaldeans. So it is on a trade route, which makes it a problematic place to build a nation, but a lot of ideas went back and forth on caravans and this may have been the fertilizer for the idea of a God who sets things by laws and separates the holy from the ordinary. The only character in the Christian Bible who may have actually lived according to scripture is Paul.

LC

[Bruno Marchal]

Even if some time traveller show me Jesus transforming water into wine, I would believe that the most plausible explanation is that Jesus is a good prestidigitator.

And the Moses quote, as well as what you say about the Gospel confirms my feeling, which is that by “I am” or “I am God”, Jesus just makes the usual claim of those having a mystic, or spcyhdelic, experience. He is not calming that he, and only he, is the literal son of God. They seems to say the normal things, which is that we are gods. All of us. With mechanism, that includes bacteria and any universal number. But we better no say it, and let people to discover this by themselves (it belongs to G* minus G).

Bruno

LC

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[Bruno Marchal]

Thanks for the precision. 

My feeling about Jesus, is that if there has been an “original Jesus”, he has few things to do with the Gospels.

Many Christians were neoplatonists. 

All along the first 5 centuries, you can see a form of aggressive and radical christianism developing. 

In Alexandria, Hypatia, who taught both Diophantus’ mathematics and Plotinus’s theology, was murdered trapped in a fight in-between christians. The radicals got more and more power and were clearly driving for the full power, that is temporal and spiritual, which is at the antipode of spirituality, as it should be obvious.

Bruno

LC

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[spudb...@aol.com]

If God does not exist, or does exist in a fashion we cannot grasp, or is 3 people/entities. or is Hindu and many many-we don't get a choice, and nobody asked us to vote. If you want to honor God, help somebody out (materialism!)..  

"But don't it make you want to rock and roll
All night long
Mohammed's Radio
I heard somebody singing sweet and soulful
On the radio, Mohammed's Radio

You know, the Sheriff's got his problems too
He will surely take them out on you
In walked the village idiot and his face was all aglow
He's been up all night listening to Mohammed's Radio"

Warren Zevon,, Mohammad's Radio 1976

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 23 Jun 2019, at 01:36, spudboy100 via Everything List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

If God does not exist, or does exist in a fashion we cannot grasp, or is 3 people/entities. or is Hindu and many many-we don't get a choice, and nobody asked us to vote. If you want to honor God, help somebody out (materialism!)..  

Why honour God? Why worship God? For a platonism, God is the truth we search, the truth which remains when the lies dies out. To honour truth? If this means to stop lying, that could be nice, and very useful to help everybody out.

Bruno

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[spudb...@aol.com]

Only if it works for you, otherwise, there's no point. If you don't like pasta, nobody can make you like pasta. Ok, maybe rigatoni?

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