[Weekly] New website!

[Josh Cole]

Hey folks, we've finished the new website. It's step one of the getting started experience and usually the first impression we make on new users, so we focused on showing what Eve is, why people should care, and what they can do with it. We've also put a stronger emphasis on trying Eve out and participating in the community. We're hoping that when 0.3 is released this will help us connect newcomers to the resources they need to do something interesting with Eve.

http://witheve.com/

What are your thoughts? Anything you particularly like or think needs changed?

[swthornton]

Looks much​better on mobiles, good job 👍

[Ignacio Sniechowski]

Looks amazing!

Thanks

Lic. Ignacio Sniechowski, MBA

Prosavic SRL

☎  (5411) 4542-6712

📱 (54911) 6749-4721

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[swthornton]

Works great on tablet, but if you try to look at examples on a phone (landscape) you can't see the output properly. I know its not how you'd use it but may be how someone first discovers Eve

[Ravil Bayramgalin]

Is it running on Eve? :D

On a serious note, the site showcases an example with a new syntax but refers to the old quickstart and examples.
I could help to update examples but the parser hasn't been finished yet and I guess you'll need to update first the editor as well?

Or have you decided to deprecate the editor in favor of a new tool you've described recently?

And what will be the first priority, updating the site to reflect JavaScript DSL (and promote Eve on a new frontier) or aforementioned things?

In any case, I think there are already plenty of us here who would spend more time with Eve (and preach to the public) but are waiting for a new parser and some sort of editor to work with it.

[Ravil Bayramgalin]

By the way, the new interface itself is great and I'm happy to see all the immense progress you're making with Eve runtime/tools development!

Thank you for all the hard work you're doing!

[Martin Zapata]

Looks really nice!

Just a little nit-pic and not a big deal, but when I click on 'play', to go back to the witheve.com, i need to press back twice on my browser.

Cheers,

Martin

[co...@kodowa.com]

@Steve

Yeah, the editor isn't designed for a tablet, but for the next release we should have something nicer for a tablet experience, even if it's not running the app, reading code could still be improved.

@Ravil

I's just a static site for now, so it's not running on Eve yet. In the future, the homepage could be interactive, running live Eve code right there, so we're looking forward to making that happen. But in the meantime, we wanted to get something basic out.

> the site showcases an example with a new syntax but refers to the old quickstart and examples.

We're working to rectify that now. We're revamping docs, quickstart, and eventually examples in preparation for the v0.3 release.

>  have you decided to deprecate the editor in favor of a new tool you've described recently?

The editor will see a complete overhaul. It has quite a long list of bugs, so we're going to make sure to make the editing experience much better with the new version.

>In any case, I think there are already plenty of us here who would spend more time with Eve (and preach to the public) but are waiting for a new parser and some sort of editor to work with it.

We want to enable you to do exactly that! When v0.3 is ready, you'll have everything you need to preach about Eve to the people.

@Martin

Thanks for pointing that out! We have a redirect for when you go to play.witheve, it shows you the quickstart. I think we should fix that as well.

Thanks for all the feedback so far everybody.

Corey

[William Taysom]

Hello Friends,

Things have certainly be active in the group.  Glad to see Eve has a concise landing page.  Your one-line description stands as a model of seeking to inform rather than be feel-good marketing copy.

> "Eve is a modern relational language for writing data-driven programs without the boilerplate."

Take note folks that each word carries weight, has a specific meaning (except perhaps "the").  A "relational language" is a thing.  Googling gives you a definition.  If you now about relational languages, "modern" connotes "not SQL" (not to be confused with "NoSQL", which unfortunately, connotes "throw out sanity and robustness for ease and speed").  Likewise, "data-driven programming" has a real definition, a Wikipedia entry.  Note that "simple", "powerful", "efficient" are nowhere to be found.  If it's something everyone would aspire to, then it's not descriptive.  Now "without boilerplate" comes close; however, "boilerplate" is a specific vice: wiring, setup, busywork.  This description itself, doesn't have boilerplate.  Moreover, we can test "without boilerplate" against Eve code.  Does this block mean something or is it just there to satisfy a whim of the computer?  Look at the four examples and ask yourself.  (I see room for improvement, and that's not a bad thing.  It shows that "without boilerplate" is a worthy goal.)

A few other thoughts, ordered by relevance...

With a prominent link to Docs, the "Eve Programming Language Documentation" gives an oh-dear-this-thing-is-no-not-ready impression.  Might be truth, might be what you're going for.  Just remember that if you have a link, people are liable to click on it.

Naturally documented paragraph is great.

> with succinct error messages

That line doesn't actually inspire confidence.  Euphemism for "cryptic"?

> multimeter

Might not be a word that most people know.  Perhaps phrase the Designed for debugging more like:

Eve gives you a window your program’s behavior.  Even while running, inspect any record, block, or component.  [Aspirationally,] Track bugs back to the moment they emerge.

> After learning a small set of operators to manipulate records (we only have nine), you're ready to work with Eve at any level.

Master just nine operators to work with Eve at any level.

> Fits in your stack

> While Eve provides everything you need to get started building programs, ...

Making the point that Eve includes batteries runs contrary to the goal of pointing out the DSL.  Eve covers gives you whole UI system model-view-controller, and you can interface anywhere along the way.  Eve as data model, React as view?  That's fine.  Eve for view, custom AJAX for persistence?  That's fine too.

Something like that,

William

[co...@kodowa.com]

William,

Thanks for your suggestions! I am encouraged by your analysis of the pitch, because it matches very closely with what we set out to communicate. That's a good sanity check. In the upcoming dev diary I provide some thoughts we had behind the pitch, and the process we underwent in coming up with it. In response to the "modern" bit, we wanted not only to get across we aren't SQL, but also we aren't Prolog (we had initially toyed with the idea of using "logic language" or "pattern matching language" in the pitch) but ultimately settled on "relational" because relations are a very fundamental concept in Eve.)

> That line doesn't actually inspire confidence.  Euphemism for "cryptic"?

I had hoped the word would do the opposite actually :( What I meant by "succinct" is basically the opposite of this: https://github.com/Kodowa/witheve.com/blob/3a92cb7fc5de346259ee7d37c68b4d60cf4743fa/images/error.png, which is an error message I'd consider cryptic. Maybe "concise" is a better adjective?

> Might not be a word that most people know.  Perhaps phrase the Designed for debugging more

You've picked up on an experiment I'm trying out. For me, a "multimeter for code" gives a very concrete picture of what kind of debugging tools Eve can enable. I'd also consider an "oscilloscope for code" to fit the bill, but I think a multimeter is more common, as you can get them at any hardware store. At any rate, I think you are right -- most people don't know what that is, but I think perhaps our target audience will be familiar with one, and therefore draw the conclusion I want them to. So I'd like to see how this phrase plays with a wider audience, and if it leads to more confusion than clarity I'm more than happy to revise it.

> Master just nine operators to work with Eve at any level.

I like this, I'm going to make this revision.

> Making the point that Eve includes batteries runs contrary to the goal of pointing out the DSL

Yeah, I am least happy about this feature description. I think it needs another revision, and I think your suggestions are along the right line.

Thanks again for the input!

Corey

[William Taysom]

Hi Corey,

 

but also we aren't Prolog (we had initially toyed with the idea of using "logic language" or "pattern matching language" in the pitch) but ultimately settled on "relational" because relations are a very fundamental concept in Eve.)

A good point.  Personally, thinking of Eve as an aspect oriented language resonates well with me, but that really is just me as one who thinks AOP never got off the ground as well as it deserved.  "Relational" leads 

 

 So I'd like to see how this phrase plays with a wider audience, and if it leads to more confusion than clarity I'm more than happy to revise it.

Take my comments as one datapoint among others.