Timing set question

[Chad Krivin]

Hey all,

I am replacing the timing gears on my 225, and I've run into something a little funny. The dots on the gears don't line up when the rotor is pointing at number one... Shouldn't they??? I haven't removed the old set yet, nor have I ever been into this motor. What does everybody think? Obviously I would like it to run again... lol

I attached a picture so you guys can see what I mean.

Thanks for the input!

--Chad
McPherson, KS
'65 2dr post aka Grannie

[Jim Bowen]

If I were you, I'd align the marks on the timing gears like this:
 

(taken from the Slant 6 forum web site)
...and then see where the rotor points.  This will give you a better idea of where things are.

Jim

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[65]

Craig...spin the crank gear around once more and the cam gear and crank gear
marks should line up. (Cam gear spins once for every 2 times the crank gear
spins)

Hope this helps...


Darwin/BC/Canada
--'67 Dart GT 'vert...273/904
--'65 Cdn.Valiant Custom 100 'vert...225/A833----SOLD
http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e285/65val

[65]

Chad...sorry...I called you Craig!!!

[DAVE S.]

Looks like it may have jumped a tooth. If you rotate the crank clockwise to
TDC, it looks like the cam marks still would not line up.

Is the chain very loose? Did it very suddenly (not gradually) start running
badly?

At any rate, ignore the distributor and set the crank to TDC before you pull
the old timing set. Then install the new one lined up as shown in the
picture Jim Bowen sent, then set the distributor to #1. After you start it,
use a timing light to fine-tune it.

ALWAYS set the cam and crank gears properly to each other. The distributor
is always set after that, but can't be set if the crank/cam aren't right.



Dave Schoenberg
Arvada, Colorado '65 Signet Convertible and a bunch of others over the
years.
Learned to drive on the Valiant and a '65 Cuda...... and they were 4 years
old at the time.....

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chad Krivin" <kri...@ptd.net>
To: <evbc...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 4:00 PM
Subject: [EVBC] Timing set question

[DAVE S.]

Also....

 

Since distributor timing is BTDC, not right at zero (which would be TDC), the rotor will be already past the #1 plug wire when cam and crank are at TDC.

 

Dave Schoenberg
Arvada, Colorado '65 Signet Convertible and a bunch of others over the years.
Learned to drive on the Valiant and a '65 Cuda...... and they were 4 years old at the time.....

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Jim Bowen

To: evbc...@googlegroups.com ; evbc...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 4:17 PM

Subject: Re: [EVBC] Timing set question

[fltu...@aol.com]

When the dots are lined up #6 cyl is at TDC compression, and the dist rotor should be pointing at number 6. #1 is at TDC split overlap.

Charrlie_S

65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo 
66 Cuda 170 nitrous 
66 Valiant Signet 225 nitrous 
64 Valiant Signet 
64 Valiant 4dr 170

-----Original Message-----
From: Chad Krivin <kri...@ptd.net>
To: evbc-list <evbc...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Jan 20, 2013 6:00 pm
Subject: [EVBC] Timing set question

Hey all,

I am replacing the timing gears on my 225, and I've run into something a little 
funny. The dots on the gears don't line up when the rotor is pointing at number 
one... Shouldn't they??? I haven't removed the old set yet, nor have I ever been 
into this motor. What does everybody think? Obviously I would like it to run 
again... lol

I attached a picture so you guys can see what I mean.

Thanks for the input!

--Chad 
McPherson, KS
'65 2dr post aka Grannie

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[DAVE S.]

OK,

 

I went out to the garage and got the 1965 FSM, which my Dad bought back in 1968, and discovered the following:

 

When the timing marks are lined up as in the picture below, the #1 (not #6, as in your picture) piston should be at TDC at the top of the compression stroke.

 

The distributor should be installed starting with the rotor at the 4 o'clock position (pointing forward) and should spiral into the 5 o'clock position as it's inserted fully into its hole in the block and the gears mesh fully.  Then turn the distributor housing until the points start to open and the rotor is under the #1 plug wire.

Install the distributor hold down bolt and connect the wires.

After the engine is running, set the timing with a timing light.  Don't forget to removve and plug the vacuum line at the vacuum advance while setting the timing.

 

TO CHECK THE TIMING CHAIN:

On the engine....

1)  Rotate the crank in its direction of rotation to remove all slack in the chain.

2)  Use a torque wrench and turn the crank back in the opposite direction.  DO NOT allow the cam gear to be moved while you are doing this.

3)  Set a ruler even with the edge of a chain link and measure how far the chain moves in step #2.

4)  If the measurement exceeds 11/64", replace the timing chain.

 

Again, from looking at the picture you attached, I'm guessing that your chain has stretched enough that it's jumped one tooth on the chain.  I say this because it looks like the timing marks will not line up when you attempt to do so (the timing mark on the cam gear will be counter-clockwise of the line).

 

The first thing you have to do is to rotate the crank and see if the marks will line up or not.  You need to rotate the crank 360 degrees to, hopefully, bring them into line.

[Chad Krivin]

Thank you all very much for your feedback! This is why I love this group so much! To answer your questions, and make things even more complicated, when the rotor is pointing at #1(not just TDC, but every time it is pointing at #1), this is where the marks are(referring to my picture). When the marks are lined up, the rotor is exactly 180 degrees off... The motor has a little over 100k on it. It hasn't ever run badly, honestly. That's the really weird part. I pulled it out to replace the oil pan gasket, and then it spiraled into the so-called snowball effect. The chain is definitely not as tight as it should be, so I figured I would replace it while I've got the engine out. Is it possible that it was put together this way from the factory??? Is everybody even more confused now? ;)

Thanks for all of the ideas everybody! Oh, and don't worry; that's not the first time I've been called my dad's name! lol

--Chad
McPherson, KS
'65 2dr post aka Grannie

[]

(taken from the Slant 6 forum web site)
...and then see where the rotor points. This will give you a better idea of where things are.

Jim

At 1/20/2013 03:00 PM, Chad Krivin wrote:
>Hey all,
>
>I am replacing the timing gears on my 225, and I've run into something
>a little funny. The dots on the gears don't line up when the rotor is
>pointing at number one... Shouldn't they??? I haven't removed the old
>set yet, nor have I ever been into this motor. What does everybody
>think? Obviously I would like it to run again... lol
>
>I attached a picture so you guys can see what I mean.
>
>Thanks for the input!
>
>--Chad
>McPherson, KS
>'65 2dr post aka Grannie

[DAVE S.]

OK, this is not adding up yet.

On either cylinder #1 (the front) or #6 (the back), both rocker arms should
be loose - not putting pressure on the valve springs - both valves are
closed. You should be able to jiggle both rockers by hand very slightly,
not just one of the two.

With the timing marks lined up as shown in the picture, which is loose - #1
or #6?

Also, have you had the distributor out since you started this engine work?
Is there any chance you put it back in backwards?

[Chad Krivin]

I don't have the valve cover off yet; that is my next step. And no, I have not pulled the distributor out because I figured I would set the engine at TDC and then pull the timing set off. This is what is really screwing with my head! HOWEVER, a couple of years back, I was having some running issues, which turned out to just be valve lash, but in the process, I moved the wires around on the cap... Could that have caused this? I don't understand how it could have because it doesn't matter where #1 is on the cap, as long as it lines up with TDC, right?

[DAVE S.]

Right. #1 has to line up with TDC, then you start it and put a timing light
on it.

Seems like we're overthinking this whole thing, so let's go through the
basics. Sorry if it's too basic.




1) Just to verify - the #1 cylinder is the one at the very front, not the
very back. Just double-checking.
2) When you refer to #1 on the cap.... are you saying that the wire is
actually going to the #1 cylinder or is there a number 1 printed on the cap
itself? If that's it, I bet the wire on #1 terminal actually goes to number
6 cylinder. That means the distributor and wires are both 180 degrees off
and you're actually timing the engine based on #6 cylinder, not #1. Works
out exactly the same sinc the crank is in the same spot in its rotation.

OK, the way this works is...... set the crank to TDC, then rotate the cam
until the marks line up like they're supposed to and install the new chain.
The crank rotates twice for every one time the cam rotates and it doesn't
matter which TDC you set it to, because you set the cam to match the crank
after you set the crank to TDC.

After the cam is oriented properly to the crank, you then install the
distributor - orienting it to the cam which you already oriented to the
crank. Doesn't really matter where you are now - just reinstall and reset
everything like Ma Mopar designed and it'll work.

3) Pull the distributor and cap and all the wires and set it on the
workbench somewhere. Stick a rag in the hole in the block so you don't drop
anything down the hole.

Measure the slop in the timing chain like I wrote earlier. If it doesn't
need to be replaced, keep going:

4) Pull the valve cover.
5) Set the crank at TDC per the mark on the harmonic balancer (bottom
pulley). If the two front rocker valves are not loose, turn the crank one
more turn. This should make the front two rockers loose. This indicates
that #1 cylinder is at TDC on the compression stroke, which is just about
where the #1 plug fires (actually 2.5 degrees before TDC per the book).
Reinstall the valve cover.

Instead of doing 4 and 5, you can do it an easier way.
Remove all 6 spark plugs.
Stick a finger in the #1 spark plug hole and crank the engine,
preferably with a remote starter switch. As it cranks, you can feel air
moving around your finger. When the piston comes up with the exhaust valve
open, you will feel a light puff of air. When it comes up with both valves
closed (approaching TDC on the compression stroke) you will feel a strong
puff of air. When you feel this strong puff of air starting, stop cranking
the engine then turn it by hand to line up the timing mark on the bottom
pulley with the TDC mark.
The timing marks on both the crank and cam gears should now line up.


After you've closed up the front of the engine (whether or not you replace
the timing chain), keep going below.

6) Reinstall the distributor, as below, without the cap and wires. Change
the oil and filter in case something fell into the pan when you had the
timing chain cover off..
7) Remove the wires from the cap and reinstall them with #1 wire on #1 cap
and going to #1 cylinder (the rotor should be just under the #1 cap).
Install the rest of the wires in order (1,5,3,6,2,4). Set the wires in
loosely at first, so you know all the wires will fit.
8) Remove and plug the vacuum line at the distributor. Set up the timing
light, start the car and set the timing after the engine is warm and the
idle speed is correct.

If this doesn't straighten it out, we might have to get on the phone.

[fltu...@aol.com]

When the dots on the timing gears are pointing at each other, # 6 cyl is at TDC compression, and the distributer rotor should point at #1 spark plug wire terminal. Cly #1 will be at TDC split overlap, at this time. This is correct. I sent this yesterday, but it didn't show up.

Charrlie_S

65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo 
66 Cuda 170 nitrous 
66 Valiant Signet 225 nitrous 
64 Valiant Signet 
64 Valiant 4dr 170

-----Original Message-----
From: Chad Krivin <kri...@ptd.net>

[DAVE S.]

Charrlie,

 

That's not correct.

 

When the timing lights are lined up and pointing at each other, #1 is at TDC compression because it's about to be fired by the distributor whose rotor is pointing at the #1 terminal.  It is then forced down in its power stroke.

 

The #6 cylinder is also at TDC, but it is at the top of its exhaust stroke and is about to move downward in its intake stroke.

 

Having #6 at TDC compression isn't going to work when the ignition system is about to fire #1.

 

Dave Schoenberg
Arvada, Colorado '65 Signet Convertible and a bunch of others over the years.
Learned to drive on the Valiant and a '65 Cuda...... and they were 4 years old at the time.....

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: fltu...@aol.com

To: evbc...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 5:02 AM

Subject: Re: [EVBC] Timing set question

[Chad Krivin]

Wait wait wait- Charrlie you're saying that my timing gears are set up properly? If I'm reading your email correctly, that is exactly what my engine is doing. What do you mean by "split overlap"?
Dave- Yup, number the number one cylinder(at the front) is going to the 1 on the cap, and the firing order is correct- I've triple checked that. And when number one is lined up on the cap, you can feel the compression stroke when you put a finger over the spark plug hole(when the #1 cylinder is coming up to TDC).

If what Charrlie is saying is correct, it sounds like Chrysler just did this a bit differently than everyone else... Provided I am reading this correctly, my old timing set which I have not removed yet, is correct. Everything I have read contradicts this and the dots should line up when #1 is at TDC... But is it possible that everything I have read is wrong? Every other engine I have dealt with is supposed to have #1 at TDC when the dots on the timing set line up. Please let me know if I am interpreting this correctly!

Thanks!

--Chad
McPherson, KS
'65 2dr post aka Grannie

----- Original Message -----
From: fltu...@aol.com
To: evbc...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 6:08:48 PM
Subject: Re: [EVBC] Timing set question

[fltu...@aol.com]

If you look, when the "dots" are together, # 1 piston is at the top, and both intake and exhaust valves are open about the same amount (overlap). # 6 piston is also at the top, and both intake and exhaust valves are closed. This is correct.

PS: Show me in the FSM where it says any thing about #1 cyl being at TDC compression, or the distributer rotor pointing to #1 on the cap.

Charrlie_S

[fltu...@aol.com]

OK, Dave. My post is incorrect. It sould state:

When the dots on the timing gears are pointing at each other, # 6 cyl is at TDC compression, and the distributer rotor should point at #6 spark plug wire terminal. Cly #1 will be at TDC split overlap, at this time. This is correct. I sent this yesterday, but it didn't show up.

 I had stated the rotor should point at #1. Not correct.

PS: I have been building and racing slant six engines for 39 years.

Charrlie_S

-----Original Message-----
From: DAVE S. <DAV...@JUNO.COM>

--

[D. Howland]

I think the confusing bit is that 1 and 6 are at the “top” at the same time and twice per cycle of the camshaft. Only one is firing even though both are at the top. And when the dots line up between the gears, according to what Charrlie is saying, number 6 is in line to fire, number 1 has to wait until the crank goes around one more time and the camshaft has gone around another ½ rotation.

 

Set the gears according to the dots and then sort out where the distributor is pointing. As the saying goes, KISS. If only I could adhere to that principle more often myself.

 

HTH,

Daryl

64 Valiant

[DAVE S.]

Daryl is completely correct.  That's how a 4-cycle engine works.

 

I'm sure that's what is confusing Chad.

 

Cutting to the chase, it seems to me that the problem is that Ma Mopar spec'd the cam gears 180 degrees off compared to the rest of the world and didn't bother to change the FSM to show that.  You could take a straight edge and scribe make your own mark on the other end of the gear and it would then be like everyone else.

[DAVE S.]

No argument with that, Charrlie.  I was only clarifying that "Having #6 at TDC compression isn't going to work when the ignition system is about to fire #1."

 

I can't argue with where the dots line up, either, except to post what is in the FSM (the picture that Jim Bowen posted).  I'm not going to go tear mine apart to look at it. I'll take your word for it that the cam wheel is marked 180 degrees off some damn weird reason.

 

 

How the marks line up is irrelevant.  Just go back to basics, remember the principles of 4-stroke engines and it works.

 

At any rate, the only way to set a timing chain is with the crank at TDC, both rockers on #1 loose (indicating the top of the compression stroke) and the distributor firing #1 cylinder.  If you have a degree wheel, you could do it the hard way and use any other cylinder the exact same way.

 

No argument with you (except that one little point above) and no disrespect.  39 years of racing Slant Sixes impresses the hell out of me.  Wish I'd been doing it.

 

Meanwhile, poor Chad in Kansas is getting more and more confused.

[68pi...@gmail.com]

Wanna throw something else into the works? Ford Y-block (272-312) had the dots pointing straight up on both crank and cog for #1 TDC and rotor was pointing to #1 tower. If both his slant dots are both 'straight up' in slant terms, would that not make #1 at TDC compression ready to fire in his case? Some other motor had you counting the chain links....

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: "DAVE S." <DAV...@JUNO.COM>

Sender: evbc...@googlegroups.com

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 13:47:30 -0700

To: <evbc...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: evbc...@googlegroups.com

--

[DAVE S.]

Sure, we're already confusing the hell out of poor Chad............

 

Dave Schoenberg
Arvada, Colorado '65 Signet Convertible and a bunch of others over the years.
Learned to drive on the Valiant and a '65 Cuda...... and they were 4 years old at the time.....

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: 68pi...@gmail.com

To: evbc...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 2:00 PM

Subject: Re: [EVBC] Timing set question

Wanna throw something else into the works? Ford Y-block (272-312) had the dots pointing straight up on both crank and cog for #1 TDC and rotor was pointing to #1 tower. If both his slant dots are both 'straight up' in slant terms, would that not make #1 at TDC compression ready to fire in his case? Some other motor had you counting the chain links....

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: "DAVE S." <DAV...@JUNO.COM>

Sender: evbc...@googlegroups.com

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 13:47:30 -0700

To: <evbc...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: evbc...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [EVBC] Timing set question

No argument with that, Charrlie.  I was only clarifying that "Having #6 at TDC compression isn't going to work when the ignition system is about to fire #1."

 

I can't argue with where the dots line up, either, except to post what is in the FSM (the picture that Jim Bowen posted).  I'm not going to go tear mine apart to look at it. I'll take your word for it that the cam wheel is marked 180 degrees off some damn weird reason.

 

 

How the marks line up is irrelevant.  Just go back to basics, remember the principles of 4-stroke engines and it works.

 

At any rate, the only way to set a timing chain is with the crank at TDC, both rockers on #1 loose (indicating the top of the compression stroke) and the distributor firing #1 cylinder.  If you have a degree wheel, you could do it the hard way and use any other cylinder the exact same way.

[Steve Wander]

Dot to Dot or both straight up will get you the same results as the cam rotates once for every 2 revolutions of the crank so depending on when you look at the dots (TDC 6 or 1)they will be either dot to dot or "straight up". So Dot to Dot = #6 TDC ready to fire. 

"...If you line up the timing marks on the crank and cam gears you'll be at TDC firing for #6...."

http://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39433&sid=6d5f5e52c1ca4a07b09b376882f74f76   3rd post down. 

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Steve W.
'65 "S"

[Chad Krivin]

So, basically what it sounds like is when the old girl was put together, somebody just didn't do it quite right or one of the gears wasn't marked properly.
Thanks for the offer Dave- I will give you a call when I go back out there. The car is across town so it probably won't be until the weekend. I'm pretty sure I know what I'm doing, but somebody else never hurts!!

--Chad
McPherson, KS
'65 2dr post aka Grannie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Wander" <68pi...@gmail.com>
To: evbc...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 3:34:32 PM
Subject: Re: [EVBC] Timing set question

Dot to Dot or both straight up will get you the same results as the cam rotates once for every 2 revolutions of the crank so depending on when you look at the dots (TDC 6 or 1)they will be either dot to dot or "straight up". So Dot to Dot = #6 TDC ready to fire.

"... If you line up the timing marks on the crank and cam gears you'll be at TDC firing for #6...."

http://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39433&sid=6d5f5e52c1ca4a07b09b376882f74f76 3rd post down.




On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 1:21 PM, DAVE S. < DAV...@juno.com > wrote:




Sure, we're already confusing the hell out of poor Chad............



Dave Schoenberg
Arvada, Colorado '65 Signet Convertible and a bunch of others over the years.
Learned to drive on the Valiant and a '65 Cuda...... and they were 4 years old at the time.....






----- Original Message -----
From: 68pi...@gmail.com
To: evbc...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: [EVBC] Timing set question


Wanna throw something else into the works? Ford Y-block (272-312) had the dots pointing straight up on both crank and cog for #1 TDC and rotor was pointing to #1 tower. If both his slant dots are both 'straight up' in slant terms, would that not make #1 at TDC compression ready to fire in his case? Some other motor had you counting the chain links....
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

From: "DAVE S." < DAV...@JUNO.COM >
Sender: evbc...@googlegroups.com
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 13:47:30 -0700
To: < evbc...@googlegroups.com >
ReplyTo: evbc...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [EVBC] Timing set question


No argument with that, Charrlie. I was only clarifying that " Having #6 at TDC compression isn't going to work when the ignition system is about to fire #1."

I can't argue with where the dots line up, either, except to post what is in the FSM (the picture that Jim Bowen posted). I'm not going to go tear mine apart to look at it. I'll take your word for it that the cam wheel is marked 180 degrees off some damn weird reason.

[]

[Jim Bowen]

Speaking for myself, Chad, I'd like to see you rotate the assembly so
that the dots are aligned as in the picture I sent - or as close as
you can get! Send us a picture of the gears at that point - then
we'll all know whether or not the chain has jumped!

[Chad Krivin]

Sure Jim I can do that! I will be curious to see what people say about that... I think I've confused everybody quite a bit already lol. Give me a couple of days and I will get back out there and snap a couple of photos.

--Chad

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Bowen" <bow...@cox.net>
To: evbc...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 8:22:32 PM
Subject: Re: [EVBC] Timing set question