A833 OD
Mark Koenig
Thanks for the overnight feedback on my transmission questions. Not only were you quick, but pretty much what I was hoping to hear. I’m going to wait until I get back from the MOPAR Nationals before putting it in.
I’ll see if my current input bearing retainer will bolt onto the OD trans.
I have heard the OD A833 isn’t as strong as non-OD A833, but I’m not going racing……and the .73 4th gear ratio will be worth the risk. If I blow it up, I’ll go to Plan ‘B’. J
If anyone knows where I can find a blown up diagram of this OD transmission, please let me know – just in case.
Oh, by the way – these things are heavy – 80-something lbs.- & awkward. I modified my engine stand a bit to hold the transmission & it makes a world of difference. I was only able to use 3 holes, but that seems like plenty of support.
Trying to wrestle with it on my work bench was a pain in the a$$.
This group is always knowledgeable & helpful.
Thanks,
Mark
fltu...@aol.com
From: Mark Koenig <mar...@fuse.net>
To: evbc-list <evbc...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Jul 29, 2013 8:26 am
Subject: [EVBC] A833 OD
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D. Howland
The only real downside to this transmission is the spacing between gears. Basically, you are taking a 4 speed and making it a 3 speed with an additional overdrive. The drop between first and second is on the large side going from 3.09:1 to 1.67:1. I have the aluminum version and it’s fine for street driving, but if your powerband is not wide enough, you’ll know it. This can tell you where you’ll be.
http://vexer.com/automotive-tools/speed-rpm-calculator
Daryl
64 Valiant
Here’s some info pages:
http://www.bigblockdart.com/techpages/4sptech.shtml
Ok. One of my saved pages is dead so here’s the long version.
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TRANSMISSIONS
MANUAL
A-745 - A-250 3 speed
A-833 - 4 speed used with all engines 1964 - 1974
A-833 (1975+) Overdrive - 4 speed tranny used in the late model Dart Featherlights (until 1976), F body Aspen and Volares (until 1980) with a .73 overdrive. This overdrive is a gearset change to the 833 where 3rd gear is now the OD gear and 4th is 1:1. In order to make this setup work the engineers had to flip over the 3/4 shifter lever. A few aftermarket shifters will not work with this style transmission.
The four speed 833 has been the transmission of choice and been used in one variation or another since 1964 to late 1989 in B/E/A/F bodies and light trucks. It has been produced in many different gear ratios including overdrive. They have come in cast iron and aluminum housings (late model) and have run behind every motor from /6 to big blocks. Early 1960's 833's do not have a splined output shaft but a flat plate with 4 bolts for the driveshaft which had a ball & trunion setup, the precurser to the modern u-joint.
As you well can assume none of the B/E or truck transmissions will swap over to an A body unless the transmission is modified by the installation of an A body tailshaft. The B/E tailshafts are too long and have the shifter mounted in the wrong position.
Input Retainers
Another difference between A833's is the transmission comes with different input shaft retainer housings depending on the front bearing in the transmission, the type of input shaft coarse (18) or fine spline (23), the diameter of it and application the transmission is designed for. This retainer is a circular shaped unit bolted on the face of the transmission and fits into the corresponding bellhousing's same diameter hole. There are three different sizes of input retainers for their corresponding bellhousings holes, their dimensions and current mopar replacement numbers are listed below.
Retainer Sizes
4.354" - (Small Bearing #307 3.14" OD)
4.807" - (Large Bearing #308 3.54" OD)
5.125" - Overdrive (Came with both bearings (initially the 307 but changed to the 308) but one retainer size).
Mopar Retainer Part Numbers
P4529694 4.354" 23 Spline 3.70" Bolt circle
P4529695 4.807" 23 Spline 3.70" Bolt circle
P4529696 4.807" 23 Spline 4.16" Bolt circle
P4529698 4.807" 18 spline 4.16" Bolt circle
If your input bearing is worn out than you can buy a nice kit from Mopar to replace it. The kit consists of a new input bearing, snap ring, and all gaskets necessary.
Input Bearing Part Numbers
P4529698 307 Bearing kit.
P4529699 308 Bearing kit.
If your 833 front bearing retainer is incorrect for the bellhousing you wish to use you can easily swap it out for the correct diameter unit. These retainers do not last forever and if there is a groove ground in it a replacement is prudent. They are still made by Mopar and cost about $70.00. You can also get into trouble buying a used transmission by assuming it is for a certain application by just relying on the input retainer part number, diameter or date on the side cover / case.
Ratios
If you decide to purchase a 833 please open up the side case to inspect the condition of the gears and syncros. Also count the number of teeth to determine what the gearset is and see if they are coarse or fine pitched gears. You must do this to determine what you are actually buying as I have seen supposedly overdrive transmissions in late model Aspens which weren't and and non-overdrives in earlier cars which were. Over the 30 year life of a typical classic car many things do get replaced or rebuilt with newer or older components, so do not count on things to stay original.
For Example.
I pulled my 833 out of a 1975 Aspen R/T. It was cast iron which is unusual for an overdrive transmission as most 833 overdrives were aluminum cased (most used the large #308 bearing). However the early units were iron and used a small input bearing (#307) but all used the large 5.125" retainer regardless of input bearing. I checked the date code on the side access cover, it was dated 2/28/75, indeed this could be the rare early cast iron model. The only problem is that the covers are interchangeable between all 833's. I then realized the bearing retainer was the small bearing 4.354" unit not the 5.125" even though the bellhousing was the 5.125" type. Hmmm. This transmission was also weird that it was lacking the ID# boss that is usually cast into the side of the case. Old unit?
Time to drain the transmission fluid and look inside for the truth. The draining part was easy as I already (accidently) drained most of the oil out into the trunk of my Maxima. I forgot to put a plug in the tailshaft and it leaked fluid all over as I drove home from the salvage yard.
Once I opened the case I found the gears to be in beautiful condition and the remaining fluid like new. This transmission was serviced recently. I counted the gear teeth on every gear including the countershafts' and compared it to the chart below that I compiled from a few sources to figure out the ratios. Indeed this tranny wasn't an overdrive and looking at the gearing and input shaft it seems to be a generic fine spline pre-1970 unit. Another interesting thing I found sitting inside the case were two small ball bearings. These bearings were from the old ball & detent style side cover and fell inside when someone improperly removed it to swap in the later 1975 cover. Just goes to show you things are not all they seem.
Here is a chart I cobbled from the factory manual and a catalog showing the gear teeth verses the ratios and other junk so you can identify your 833 properly.
SPLINE | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th |
| 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th |
Small | 2.66(35) | 1.91(34) | 1.39(29) | 1.00(24) |
| 17 | 23 | 27 | 31 |
Small | 2.47(35) | 1.77(34) | 1.34(29) | 1.00(25) |
| 17 | 23 | 26 | 30 |
Small (/6) | 3.09(35) | 1.92(32) | 1.40(27) | 1.00(22) |
| 17 | 25 | 29 | 33 |
Small (1975+ /6 OD) | 3.09(35) | 1.67(30) | .73 (18) Flipped | 1.00(22) |
| 17 | 27 | 37 | 33 |
Large | 2.65(33) | 1.93(30) | 1.39(26) | 1.00(21) |
| 16 | 20 | 24 | 27 |
Large | 2.44(33) | 1.77(30) | 1.34(26) | 1.00(22) |
| 16 | 20 | 23 | 26 |
Large (Hemi Red Stripe) | 2.65(33) | 1.64(28) | 1.19(24) | 1.00(21) |
| 16 | 22 | 26 | 27 |
SHIFTER & LINKAGE
In Barracudas there were two different types of transmission shifters. Inland and Hurst. The Inland shifter was used in the 1967 - early 1968 models until Mopar changed over to Hurst. The Inland shifter can be identified by two reverse lockout prongs like a "T" that you had to pull up on to get it into reverse. The Hurst shifter did not have this feature. I was reading a 1969 Motor Trend article reviewing the 340 Cuda where they talk about the switch from Inland to Hurst. They claim the switch was due the poor shifting quality of the Inland unit. Interesting fact in the article was that Motor Trend also had problems with the shift quality of the Hurst unit. Hmmmm. They hated them both.
The Hurst and Inland shifters have been discontinued for many years but how do you buy a replacement? The original Hurst shifter mechanism is being reproduced by Year One for $215.00. That does not include the mounting plate, linkage, tranny levers, shifter handle or anything. Pricy!
If you are lucky enough to have an old worn out Hurst shifter mechanism, Hurst or Year One will rebuild it for you for around $70.00. Or you can buy the rebuild kit with bushings and clips for $6.95 from Mancini Racing and do it yourself.
Time to spew a little on Hurst:
I went to Hursts' website and on the top of their homepage there is a statement about how great a company they are and how they produced the legendary shifters for the Plymouth Barracuda, amongst other classics listed there. So you say to yourself, "Great, maybe they still make the original shifter, after all they boast about it right up on their site". So I tried to download that 7 meg catalog which is a total pain in the ass even on a ISDN modem. So I called the tech line up to inquire.
Well, time for a reality sandwich. They do not make the ORIGINAL shifter mechanism anymore, nor the linkages, handles for anything for the cuda. Huh? They explained to me that they are now a Mr. Gasket group now and they are currently phasing out a lot of the older products they have. I assume that Year One purchased the tooling for the shifters years ago. Too bad Hurst didn't keep it, I wonder if they know that Year One is selling that one shifter mechanism for more money than half of the products available in the Hurst catalog. But Hurst does provide an alternative to Year One's stranglehold on the Mopar shifter market. More on that below.
Time to hack on Year One a little.
Year One is the most expensive place on the planet for reproduction Mopar parts. This is probably since Mopar makes up only 5% of all aftermarket parts sales and may be a profitless parts line for the company. Why make a Mopar part when you can make a Camaro part and sell 10X the amount. Tooling costs money, and those costs have to be shifted to the consumer. However, why YO buys current Mopar parts and doubles their price I can't understand. Probably to keep the line afloat. Hopefully the juice will finance some part reproductions. Optimist aren't I?
Anyway, YO can supply a lot of those hard to find transmission parts like the levers for an unsweet $59.00 a set (67-74: 1-2 #891, 3-4 #890, Reverse #967) some of the shifter rods for almost $30.00 each and other small crap for big dollars. Bottom line is if you want an A body 4 speed shifter setup it will run you about $394.00
$215 (shifter) + $90 (3 rods) + $59 (Levers) + $29 (Mounting pate) = $394.00.
Whew.
Brewers also sells this stuff about 25% cheaper. And still you don't have a shifter handle which is not reproduced by anyone and lots of little stuff like the hard to find lower boot that protects the shifter from the weather that tends to add up.
This is way too much pain and too expensive what can we do about it?
Well even though I was hacking on Hurst they have come to the rescue at least for us A & F body guys. They do make a competition plus shifter for the Barracudas and also an install kit to make it work but they have an even better deal.
Order Hurst PN# 503-0032 at your parts dealer.
This is the Hurst Indy shifter setup for the A & F body Mopars and it is a COMPLETE kit with every rod, lever, mounting bracket, shifter, shifter arm (useless), bolts etc. that will be needed to put a shifter in your ride. It fits all A & F body Mopars regardless of year. However, it only fits non-overdrive A833's. I don't know why you couldn't make it fit an OD with a little modifications. The total price is: $128.00 through Summit racing or $160 at the local Pep Boys. CHEAP!
The shifter arm is useless though for console applications and a little too short for floor shift. Hurst does have a full line of handles available but nothing looks like it will fit a console car. In any case I will look for an original Hurst console shifter arm or grab an Inland shifter arm and weld on a Hurst type end and make it fit. It seems to me that you can also use the Hurst shifter arm in the kit and weld up something that will be hidden by the boot. I will know when I get to that point of the swap.
Z Bar AKA Torque Shaft.
This is the next step.
There are different Z bars for different cars and different engines. The Z bar from a B/E body will NOT fit an A body nor vice versa. The A/F body Z bars are also not reproduced by anyone but you can buy them Brewers. The /6 bar is different than the small block Z bar and different than the big block Z bar. I had both a /6 and a v8 and a quicky check is the width of the bar. The /6 is 8" wide and the SB V8 is 7" wide. If you but a used Z bar do not pay the $$$ for the pivots or pivot plate. They are available new in one big kit along with all seals, plastic bushings, snap rings etc. from mother Mopar.
A body: PN# P4529-447
B/E body: PN#
If you need just the seals and bushings then you need the following ( These are old part numbers):
Seals: 2265-942
Bushings: 2265-938
Other parts you will need to freshen up your cluch is a new clutch fork and rod kit. Those part numbers are:
Clutch Rod Kit P4529448
Clutch Fork Kit P4529451
Clutch / Flywheel
Clutch: I could go on for days about clutches but you would be best to buy a quality clutch from Centerforce or Hays for your application and just forget the rest.
Flywheels: Flywheels come in many shapes, sizes and materials for the application. Like clutches it would be best to check the latest Mopar or aftermarket catalog to see what is available for your application. The standard flywheels are cast iron and go all the way up to billet steel for racing purposes and beyond.
The general sizes are listed below:
/6 = 10" or 9 ¼"
318, 340, 360 = 10.5"
360 = 10.5", 11" Externally balanced
The 360 engine swap seems to be the hot ticket these days. This engine requires an externaly balanced 10.5" flywheel. This wheel was only made in 1974 in limited production. If you ASSUME you can use a flywheel out of a 360 van you will be sorely disappointed. It does not fit in the standard 10.5" bellhousing!!! It is an 11" wheel so beware. Unless you buy an 11" housing to make it fit. You can use an 318 wheel and drill three balance holes in the rear of it. This is not an easy operation and requires some precise drilling with a, get this, 1 11/32" drill bit (Got one of those?). Now you will no longer read about this operation in the current Mopar Chassis catalog. Why? Well Mopar has re-released the 10.5" 130 tooth 360 cast iron wheel, PN# P4529110 (Magnum 360 is PN# P5249842) so they removed the drilling procedure for making one out of a 318 wheel in the new version of the chassis manual. I assume the reason is that it may cut into sales. SLIME!
Well the new wheel is pretty cheap for $225.00 or so through Mancini. This may be the best deal for you as used wheels can be warped or even have cracks around the bolt holes.
Pedal Setup / Hump Etc.
The last key to the clutch setup is the pedal setup and hump. If you are doing a 4 speed swap you will need both of these items.
Pedals: You need a clutch pedal and shorter brake pedal. I wouldn't worry about finding the manual brake pedal as it seems to be identical to the auto pedal except the pedal foot "plate" it is not as wide. It looks like Mopar just cut the automatic brake pedal in half from what I can see looking at 70 Dart clutch brake pedal unit. What you really do need is the clutch pedal so if you find an orphan clutch pedal at a swap meet grab it and forget buying a whole pedal setup. Other things you do need for the clutch pedal is the pushrod, overcenter spring and the little loop it attaches with.
Hump: The hump needs to be welded into the floor of your automatic car inorder to convert it. Fiberglass reproductions are available but Sherman has just released a sheet metal version for the 1973 and later A bodies. It doesn't fit exactly right to the floor of a pre - 73 A body and needs about a 1" filler patch welded in to make it work. I assume this is because they bought the tooling from Mopar. I believe Mopar was junking it as who in their right mind produce the tooling for a late 73+ model A body when most of us own 67 - 72 A bodies? I also never thought there was any difference in the floor plans.
AUTOMATIC
A-727 3 speed "Torqueflight" used with 340, 360, 383, 400, 440 & Hemi engines.
Dimensions: Length: 38.13" front case to yoke centerline. 34.39" Case only.
A-904 3 speed light duty transmission used with /6 and small v8's
Dimensions: Length: 34.12 front case to yoke centerline, 30.50" Case only.
A-998 904 Derivative beefed up for use with 318 engines.
A-999 904 Derivative strongest 904 type transmission for use with 360 engines.
A-727
Introduced in 1962. It is a 3 speed unit with a slip spline output shaft for the years 1965+. This transmission came behind most performance small blocks (340 & 360) and all big blocks (361, 383, 400, 440, 426 Hemi). There is a difference between the small block and the big block cases so they do not interchange.
A-904, 998 ,999
The 904 is a light duty version of the 727 and is smaller in size and lighter in weight. It was used mainly with the /6 and 273 engines. The 998 is a heavier duty version designed for the 318 engine. The 999 is the heaviest of the 904 type transmissions and was used behind 360 engines in 1974 - 1979. The drive shaft yoke on the 904 series transmissions is smaller than the 727 so they are not interchangeable. The length is also shorter than the 727 so if you want to swap in a 727 for your 904 drive shaft shortening is necessary.
Transmission speedo pinion chart:
On Tom's moparts and other sites there are speedo pinion charts for you to select the proper tranny gear for your rear end axle / tires to keep that speedo reading correctly. These pinion suggestions can be found in early Mopar chassis manuals but are omitted in the later ones. The pinion part numbers found on Tom's site is outdated but can be cross-referenced by your Mopar dealer. They all have been revised which probably explains why the Mopar chassis manual dropped the pinion/gear/tire chart as they didn't want to go throught the work of updating it. Here are the most recent numbers that I can find:
TOOTH | COLOR | PN# |
24 | WHITE | 3410024 |
25 | BLUE | 3410025 |
26 | RED | 2538926 |
27 | WHITE | 52068149 |
28 | BLUE | 52068150 |
29 | BLACK | 52068151 |
30 | YELLOW | 52068152 |
31 | GREEN | 52068153 |
32 | BLACK | 52068154 |
33 | YELLOW | 52068155 |
34 | GREEN | 52068156 |
35 | ORANGE | 52068157 |
36 | RED | 52068158 |
37 | WHITE | 52068159 |
38 | BLUE | 52068060 |
39 | GREEN | 52068061 |
40 | ORANGE | 52068062 |
41 | RED | 2538941 |
42 | WHITE | 2538942 |
43 | BLUE | 2538943 |
44 | ? | ? |
45 | ? | ? |
A few things I must note. I have a few of the old 253XXXX and 341XXXX numbers up there in red. This is because they are supposedly discontinued and i can't find any data on them. With the old numbers it used to be easy to find out the tooth count as the last two numbers of the part numbers were the number of teeth (i.e. 2538943 = 43 teeth). Today Mopar has made everything more difficult and this is no longer the case.
The pinions spin inside an adaptor housing that fits into the transmission housing. There are two adaptors, PN# 2892994 (discontinued)& 2538608. The 994 is only used for the 24 & 25 tooth pinion, the 608 is for all others. If you are going through all of the trouble to change pinion gears do yourself a favor and buy a new seal kit for the adaptor PN# 4883434AA. If this thing leaks you will have tranny fluid coming out everywhere (including the back of the speedometer) and you will have go back in and fix it.
Torque converters:
360 Torque converter balance kit part number: P4120241.
360 Magnum Torque converter balance kit part number: P5249843
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