Wasting Energy? (was: Re: [fr|en] 1 euro = 0,8587 dollar)
Philippe Vigeral
37509.news.dfncis.de> :
> Hehe, yep. I know of people that commute from Palm Springs (about 200 km
> east of Los Angeles) daily to work there. Are there people in Germany (or
> other parts of Europe) that commute to jobs in cities with such huge
> distances?
How do they make the trip? By car? :-(
There are many people in France that work in Paris and live outside
(about 50-100 km), travelling by train or by car. For some years, a
new situation arose because of TGV (high speed train) : people who
lives in cities 200-400 km around Paris and come there for work with
TGV (250-280 km/h). Although less common, the reverse also exists.
A recent article in a French newspaper ("Le Monde", I believe, but I
cannot find it now) dealt some days ago with that new territory and life
organization in middle-sized towns, based on whether a city gets a TGV
station or does not. Several cities (Le Mans, Orléans, Angers, Tours,
Mâcon, Amiens, etc.) may thus become almost outer suburbs of Paris in
near future.
I suppose some kind of similar events may appear also in other countries
with very fast trains (Japan, Germany, Spain, etc.) but I guess it is
also related to the very special situation in France, where train
network is set as a spider's web of which Paris is the centre.
[Xposted on europa.viages.transporto]
--
Philippe Vigeral
[fr,en,es]
andy roberts
>A recent article in a French newspaper ("Le Monde", I believe, but I
>cannot find it now) dealt some days ago with that new territory and life
>organization in middle-sized towns, based on whether a city gets a TGV
>station or does not. Several cities (Le Mans, Orléans, Angers, Tours,
>
>I suppose some kind of similar events may appear also in other countries
>with very fast trains (Japan, Germany, Spain, etc.) but I guess it is
>also related to the very special situation in France, where train
>network is set as a spider's web of which Paris is the centre.
>
The recent completion of the TGV line to Marseilles has been promoted in
the UK as a chance to travel from London to the Med by train in under
seven hours. I'm not sure if this includes crossing from Gare du Nord
by Metro or if there is now a way of channelling trains directly past
Paris at 300K/h .
Andy R
--
Europa.* a new usenet hierarchy now created
for europe wide topics without language restrictions.
Larry G
> How do they make the trip? By car? :-(
Unfortunately yes, most do. Local roads in my town are busy by 5 a.m.
There has been, in recent years, an improvement in mass transit in the Los
Angeles area. There is a network of trains now, called Metrolink, which
links various outlying suburbs to Los Angeles, but this is only used by a
portion of most commuters. Most clog the freeways (highways) to jobs in Los
Angeles and Orange counties. Some people will take the Metrolink (train) to
jobs.
There is also a newly completed subway (metro) that has recently been
completed in Los Angeles, but that only connects Hollywood to downtown Los
Angeles, a distance of only a few kilometers. Otherwise, the only mass
transit in the Los Angeles area is buses. In San Diego, there is a trolley
system.
Los Angeles area mass transit is embarrassingly small for a city and
surrounding area its size. However, as Christian pointed out, the situation
is much different in the San Francisco Bay Area to the north. That area is
closer to European levels of mass transit. There is a more complex system
of local trains, subways (metro), trolleys, and ferries, connecting the city
to surrounding suburbs. Also, the city there is well integrated into the
national train system, AMTRAK. People there are much less dependent on
cars, yet even there, there are large numbers of automobile commuters with
people commuting from cities to the east.
> There are many people in France that work in Paris and live outside
> (about 50-100 km), travelling by train or by car. For some years, a
> new situation arose because of TGV (high speed train) : people who
> lives in cities 200-400 km around Paris and come there for work with
> TGV (250-280 km/h). Although less common, the reverse also exists.
Interesting. Amazingly, there are a few people here as well that live in
Los Angeles and commute to jobs in and around my small town. My town used
to be a small town, mostly farmland, but as housing in Los Angeles became
more expensive, people began moving to the rural areas to buy bigger homes.
So now, my town is basically an L.A. suburb, lol.
> A recent article in a French newspaper ("Le Monde", I believe, but I
> cannot find it now) dealt some days ago with that new territory and life
> organization in middle-sized towns, based on whether a city gets a TGV
> station or does not. Several cities (Le Mans, Orléans, Angers, Tours,
> Mâcon, Amiens, etc.) may thus become almost outer suburbs of Paris in
> near future.
Wow, Interesting. Those trains seem to be changing common ideas of
distance, certainly. I know that AMTRAK is experimenting with high speed
trains in the Boston-Washington corridor on the east coast. I don't know
why the U.S. has been so slow at high-speed trains. IIRC AMTRAK is using
trains from either France or Germany for the high-speed experiment, but I
can't recall which. At any rate, I'm sure that system doesn't compare to
what has existed in France and Germany for a few decades now. There has
been talk of a similar high speed connection between Los Angeles and San
Francisco, or Los Angeles and Las Vegas, but so far all it has been is talk.
> I suppose some kind of similar events may appear also in other countries
> with very fast trains (Japan, Germany, Spain, etc.) but I guess it is
> also related to the very special situation in France, where train
> network is set as a spider's web of which Paris is the centre.
Yep, I would say that that Boston-Washington corridor would be similar to
Paris as far as being the hub of the nation's transportation and industrial
network. Though probably a bit more spread out with Chicago being in the
center, and then the West Coast San Diego-Los Angeles-San Francisco region,
etc. It will be interesting to see if high-speed trains become more popular
here, and if outlying cities become "suburbs" as it happening in Europe.
Larry
Thomas Martin Widmann
> The recent completion of the TGV line to Marseilles has been
> promoted in the UK as a chance to travel from London to the Med by
> train in under seven hours. I'm not sure if this includes crossing
> from Gare du Nord by Metro or if there is now a way of channelling
> trains directly past Paris at 300K/h .
This made me wonder: Why are railways still such a national phenomenon
in Europe? Why aren't there direct TGV/ICE connexions between
Frankfurt and Brussels, between Munich and Paris, between Venice and
Marseilles, or between Warsaw and Hamburg?
/Thomas
--
Thomas Martin Widmann, Universitetsparken 8, 2., -333, DK-8000 Århus C
Tel.: 7028 4406 * (park) 8942 7333 * (mob.) 2167 6127 * (SDS) 8733 4465
<mailto:vira...@daimi.au.dk> <URL:http://www.daimi.au.dk/~viralbus>
MA stud. (ling-dat); stud.prog.; aktiv radikal; formand/DK-TUG; T4ONF/TK
Philippe Vigeral
<j5alht8iea95vhq6n...@4ax.com> :
> The recent completion of the TGV line to Marseilles has been promoted in
> the UK as a chance to travel from London to the Med by train in under
> seven hours. I'm not sure if this includes crossing from Gare du Nord
> by Metro or if there is now a way of channelling trains directly past
> Paris at 300K/h .
Oh yes, there is a railway that bypasses Paris, allowing TGVs
from Lille or Bruxelles to reach Lyon or Marseille (the latter
from next June 10th) without a stop in Paris.
With that way, a trip from Lille to Marseille takes 4h50, one from
Bruxelles to Lyon 3h50 (Paris-Lyon takes 2h00, Paris-Marseille 3h00).
However, I couldn't find such direct connection with London on French
railways' website <http://www.sncf.com/>.
--
Philippe Vigeral
[fr,en,es]
Philippe Vigeral
<yrs66ed...@humulus.daimi.au.dk> :
> This made me wonder: Why are railways still such a national phenomenon
> in Europe? Why aren't there direct TGV/ICE connexions between
> Frankfurt and Brussels, between Munich and Paris, between Venice and
> Marseilles, or between Warsaw and Hamburg?
For commercial reasons obviously since Germany and France separately
developed ICE and TGV that still are competitive.
French TGV expands towards Belgium, England, French-speaking Switzerland
and maybe Italy soon, while German ICE expands (at least, to my
knowledge) towards German-speaking Switzerland and Netherlands. They are
competitive in Spain that gets both trains (rather TGV on Madrid-
Sevilla, rather ICE on Madrid-Barcelona), etc.
There has not been any common European politics about high speed trains,
to be compared to Airbus for planes. Nevertheless, I've heard about
French-German cooperation for the next generation.
When French 'TGV-Est' (Paris-Strasbourg) will be completed, it will be
unthinkable IMO that it is not connected with the German network.
--
Philippe Vigeral
[fr,en,es]
Thomas Martin Widmann
> Thomas Martin Widmann a brillamment écrit dans l'article
> <yrs66ed...@humulus.daimi.au.dk> :
>
> > This made me wonder: Why are railways still such a national phenomenon
> > in Europe? Why aren't there direct TGV/ICE connexions between
> > Frankfurt and Brussels, between Munich and Paris, between Venice and
> > Marseilles, or between Warsaw and Hamburg?
>
> For commercial reasons obviously since Germany and France separately
> developed ICE and TGV that still are competitive.
But if SNCF wanted to create a TGV connexion between Paris and Prague,
or if DB wanted to connect Frankfurt and Barcelona by ICE, would it be
allowed? I don't know much about railways, but it seems to me that
it's still an area of national pride and protectionism.
> French TGV expands towards Belgium, England, French-speaking Switzerland
> and maybe Italy soon, while German ICE expands (at least, to my
> knowledge) towards German-speaking Switzerland and Netherlands. They are
> competitive in Spain that gets both trains (rather TGV on Madrid-
> Sevilla, rather ICE on Madrid-Barcelona), etc.
I didn't know that. Interesting.
> There has not been any common European politics about high speed trains,
> to be compared to Airbus for planes. Nevertheless, I've heard about
> French-German cooperation for the next generation.
Good.
> When French 'TGV-Est' (Paris-Strasbourg) will be completed, it will
> be unthinkable IMO that it is not connected with the German network.
I hope so.
Christian Feldhaus
> This made me wonder: Why are railways still such a national phenomenon
> in Europe? Why aren't there direct TGV/ICE connexions between
> Frankfurt and Brussels, between Munich and Paris, between Venice and
> Marseilles, or between Warsaw and Hamburg?
Huh? Such connections already exist. There is the Thalys, for example, a
high speed train from Paris (F) via Brussels (B) to Cologne/Düsseldorf
(D). The connection from the Ruhrgebiet (D) to the Randstad (NL) is
pretty fast (though not "hi-speed" yet) ...
In most European countries the railway "system" is, or used to be, a
national monopoly. And the transition (to some competitive model) is
fairly slow. in Germany, for example, a railway operator has to get a
license from the network operator, and due to the position of Deutsche
Bahn there are only a few niche "competitors" such as the Metropolitan
(Cologne-Hamburg) or regional rail companies.
And of course, whenever further liberalization of the railway market is
discussed here, somebody will point at the effects of the British
"model". Not the best way to go maybe ...
Christian
Thomas Martin Widmann
> Thomas Martin Widmann <vira...@humulus.daimi.au.dk> wrote:
>
> > This made me wonder: Why are railways still such a national phenomenon
> > in Europe? Why aren't there direct TGV/ICE connexions between
> > Frankfurt and Brussels, between Munich and Paris, between Venice and
> > Marseilles, or between Warsaw and Hamburg?
>
> Huh? Such connections already exist. There is the Thalys, for example, a
> high speed train from Paris (F) via Brussels (B) to Cologne/Düsseldorf
> (D).
Is the Thalys just as fast as the TGV or the ICE?
> The connection from the Ruhrgebiet (D) to the Randstad (NL) is
> pretty fast (though not "hi-speed" yet) ...
I see.
> In most European countries the railway "system" is, or used to be, a
> national monopoly. And the transition (to some competitive model) is
> fairly slow. in Germany, for example, a railway operator has to get a
> license from the network operator, and due to the position of Deutsche
> Bahn there are only a few niche "competitors" such as the Metropolitan
> (Cologne-Hamburg) or regional rail companies.
I wonder whether it would help if the national network operators
merged to one EU network operator. Then the various national railway
operators would be able to compete much more evenly.
> And of course, whenever further liberalization of the railway market is
> discussed here, somebody will point at the effects of the British
> "model". Not the best way to go maybe ...
What went wrong in Britain? I know there are loads of problems, and
Brits seem to blame the privatisation, but surely the answer is more
complex than that...?
Philippe Vigeral
> But if SNCF wanted to create a TGV connexion between Paris and Prague,
> or if DB wanted to connect Frankfurt and Barcelona by ICE, would it be
> allowed?
Since French railways are a national monopoly, I suppose it's not
possible in France. However, we should make a distinction between
railways and trains. TGV and ICE are trains that use identical tracks so
they can easily go from German network to French one and the reverse.
ICE thus can move in France and TGV in Germany without any difficulties.
However, I hardly imagine SNCF buying ICE at present...
I learned this morning from a relation who is a SNCF employee that a
junction is planned between Madrid-Barcelona (ICE) and Paris-Montpellier
(TGV) railways, probably using both trains, and than Italian pendular
train will use French railways till Lyon while TGV will go in Italy.
Another point to note is that tracks still are not standardized
everywhere: in French, Germany and most countries wheelbase is 1,34m but
in other countries it may be different (I'm aware of 1,44m in Spanish
Madrid-Sevilla AVE).
--
Philippe Vigeral
[fr,en,es]
andy roberts
>andy roberts a brillamment écrit dans l'article
><j5alht8iea95vhq6n...@4ax.com> :
>
>> The recent completion of the TGV line to Marseilles has been promoted in
>> the UK as a chance to travel from London to the Med by train in under
>> seven hours. I'm not sure if this includes crossing from Gare du Nord
>> by Metro or if there is now a way of channelling trains directly past
>> Paris at 300K/h .
>
>Oh yes, there is a railway that bypasses Paris, allowing TGVs
>from Lille or Bruxelles to reach Lyon or Marseille (the latter
>from next June 10th) without a stop in Paris.
That's good.
>
>With that way, a trip from Lille to Marseille takes 4h50, one from
>Bruxelles to Lyon 3h50 (Paris-Lyon takes 2h00, Paris-Marseille 3h00).
>However, I couldn't find such direct connection with London on French
>railways' website <http://www.sncf.com/>.
SNCF have a branch in London concerned with European travel,
http://www.raileurope.co.uk
This link http://www.raileurope.co.uk/railtravel/newsoffers.htm
mentions the through journey from London to Marseilles return for £95 (
154 Euros ) in under seven hours, which I think must include changing
at Paris or Lille, otherwise it should be possible in six hours.
http://www.eurostar.com doesn't shed any further light on it.
andy roberts
<yrsu21v...@humulus.daimi.au.dk> :
>What went wrong in Britain? I know there are loads of problems, and
>Brits seem to blame the privatisation,
Correct.
> but surely the answer is more
>complex than that...?
The method of privatisation perhaps, whereby one company owns the track,
and many other different companies each operate trains in the regions,
for certain inter-city lines, and for freight. The rolling stock itself
is then leased but only if the owner is willing to provide them. On top
of this , the government pays large subsidies to the railway operators
to provide the service, and various targets are supposed to be met.
In practice it has meant under investment, poor service, higher prices
and less passengers.
I think the European railways should be publicly owned and controlled as
one network but this doesn't seem possible under the existing EU
framework.
Philippe Vigeral
> This link http://www.raileurope.co.uk/railtravel/newsoffers.htm
> mentions the through journey from London to Marseilles return for £95 (
> 154 Euros ) in under seven hours, which I think must include changing
> at Paris or Lille, otherwise it should be possible in six hours.
Changing at Lille is a bit (15 to 25 mn) more rapid and moreover you
stay at the same "Lille Europe" station, whereas in Paris you have to go
from "Gare du Nord" to "Gare de Lyon" by taxi or underground (not direct
itself).
--
Philippe Vigeral
[fr,en,es]
Philippe Vigeral
<yrsu21v...@humulus.daimi.au.dk> :
> Is the Thalys just as fast as the TGV or the ICE?
Oh yes. "Thalys" is a brand name for high speed trains services that are
provided jointly by the Belgian, French, Dutch and German railways, as I
just learnt on <http://www.thalys.com/>. (Go there, the site is
interesting and moreover, I guess you'll love the voice of the girl who
says "Thaaalyyys").
Nowhere on the site however I found whether trains used are TGV or ICE.
Both probably, depending on where they run.
--
Philippe Vigeral
[fr,en,es]